ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

When cold the car runs normal. As soon as it heats up all hell breaks loose. When operating at normal temp the car
1. Knocks under hard acceleration
2. Can't maitain an idle when at rest and jumps all over the place and then stalls out
3. Car seems slower AFTER the intake install!

What I have checked.
1. Fixed 2 vacuum leaks (throttle body and internal)
2. Timming at 0* where it has always been
3. All ignition is new MSD cap, Coil, Rotor, Wires
4. Plugs are new
5. New TPS and IAT sensors

My mods are in my sig. All of this started after the Edelbrock intake install. Do I have another vacuum leak somewhere? Maybe EGR leak or somthing that connects to the intake. Bad fuel pressure? Do I need a chip? Bad MAP sensor?


------------------
1990 RS 305 TBI T-5
.5" turbocity spacer
Edelbrock TBI intake
180* stat
Summit 14X3 OpenElement W/k&N
Hooker 3" Areochamber
MSD - Wires, Cap, Rotor, Coil
Bosch Platinum +4 plugs
Metallic Red w/28,000 Pampered miles
(Still have the original wiper blades)

prscarf

CHECK YOUR TIMING AGAIN, YOU HAVE A ADDED
STARTUP TIMING WHEN COLD COMPARED TO WARM. CHANGING TO THIS INTAKE SHOULD NOT OF CAUSED ALL THESE PROBLEMS TO YOUR CHIP.IT MY BE OUT ALITTLE BUT NOT LIKE WHAT YOUR DESCRIBING. SOUND LIKE YOUR TIMING IS SCREWED UP, PLAY WITH YOUR TIMING WHEN HOT AND SEE IF YOUR PROBLEM GOES AWAY.

[This message has been edited by prscarf (edited November 15, 2001).]

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

What do you think my timing problem is right now. It knocks but can't keep an idle. Almost like it is retard at idle and to far advanced at WOT. I have had two places check the timing and they say it is at zero and that they won't advance it or "tune it" because that is not the stock setting. I am going to do it myself and buy a timing gun. Wich one of the plugs on the distributor is the one to the computer? Could someone give me the correct way to set the timming on our cars. I tried once when the car was warm and idling but touched something and got horribly shocked.


------------------
1990 RS 305 TBI T-5
.5" turbocity spacer
Edelbrock TBI intake
180* stat
Summit 14X3 OpenElement W/k&N
Hooker 3" Areochamber
MSD - Wires, Cap, Rotor, Coil
Bosch Platinum +4 plugs
Metallic Red w/28,000 Pampered miles
(Still have the original wiper blades)

Pukka

I had a similar problem the first time I swapped my intake and it turned out my timing was way off even though I marked the distributor cap and rotor.

To set the timing, first mark the timing notch on the crank pulley so you can see it. You should see a mark that looks like a fat triangle and 3 skinny triangles. The valley between the fat and skinny triangle is 0 degrees. Disconnect the ESC bypass switch and loosen the distributor bolt. Get an inductive timing light, connect the induction clamp lead around the #1 spark plug wire and the other lead to the battery. Start the car and point the gun at the timing mark. You should now see what your timing is...rotate the distributor to either advance or retard it. When done, tighten the distributor bolt and recheck the timing. Now you're done.

As long as you don't touch the spark plug wires or the alternator, you shouldn't get a shock unless you have a short somewhere.

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92 Camaro RS, LO3, 5-spd, T-tops

Performance:
K&N Open Air Filter, Edelbrock performer TBI intake, Fastchip Prom, Timing +4 degrees, Centerforce clutch, Xact 8mm wires, SLP 1 3/4" Headers (coated), Flowmaster Catback Exhaust, Richmond 3:42 gears, Torsen HD Posi
Sights & Sounds:
Alpine 8030 Alarm System, Valentine One Radar Detector (How did I ever drive without one?), Pioneer DEH 7450 Head Unit w/6-pack CD changer, Pioneer DEQ 7600 Sound Processor, 2 Kenwood KAC-846 Amps powering 2 12" Pro Red subs, 2 Pioneer 6x9 and 2 MTX 4x6 speakers. Z28 grille w/aftermarket lights, MacEwen whiteface gauges
NEXT UP: TBI & Suspension mods

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Thanks for the imput. Which one of the wires on the distributor do you dissconnect? Then you set the timming turn off the car and than restart it..right? I have mulitple ways to do this.


------------------
1990 RS 305 TBI T-5
.5" turbocity spacer
Edelbrock TBI intake
180* stat
Summit 14X3 OpenElement W/k&N
Hooker 3" Areochamber
MSD - Wires, Cap, Rotor, Coil
Bosch Platinum +4 plugs
Metallic Red w/28,000 Pampered miles
(Still have the original wiper blades)

Pukka

No need to mess with the distributor wires.

The ESC bypass connector is a brown wire that runs near the blower motor on the rear passenger side.

Make sure the car is off when you disconnect and reconnect this wire.

FRMULA

All of this is explained with pictures in any Chilton's manual but here it is...

Did you index your distributor before you pulled it? (marked the postion of the rotor in relation to the cap and the position of the distributor in relation to the engine). If not your timing is way off. Worse case you installed the distributor 180 degrees out of sync.

You're better off pulling the the #1 spark plug and getting the motor to TDC. Turn the crank over by hand and with your finger you will feel the piston come up the moment before it comes dowm is TDC you can also pull the valve cover and watch the #1 valves the moment #1 intake closes and before #1 exhaust opens is TDC.

When you have TDC the rotor should be in #1 position. if not pull the ditributor and reinstall till you get the rotor to align with the #1 position. When you have the distributor in the right position then you can set timing.

Disconntectig the ESC will trip the Check engine light. You will need to disconnect the battery when you are done to clear out and trouble codes.

Make sure the engine is at operating temp (WARM) before setting the timing. "0" degrees is factory setting and was supposed to be set by dealerships to 12-16 degrees initial advance when the cars were shipped new. Set your base timing to 12 degrees initial advance, you will like it. Your timing light should come with instructions but usually you dial in the advance on the timing light and then turn your distributor until you get "0" on you timing marks.

DO yourself a favor and get a Chilton's for your car. These problems you're having can be avoided if you read up on the basics.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Thanks for all of the help guys. I have a chiltons and used it. Since than the intake has been pulled to fix a gasket failure. SO I know the distributor is in right (I hope so..A speed shop did it). I will just play with it. I don't have my chiltons here at school so honestly I can't rember a good enough explanation in there. I know for a fact that the timing is at zero (had two places check it) but none of them dissconnected anything. (I watch them do it). So maybe it is off because they timed it without dissconnecting anything. Isn't 12* a bit much. For my mods shouldn't I stick to 4 or 6* advanced? Help me out here to. I am still a little confused. What is the diff between base, initial, and total timing. When I change my timing which one am I actually changing? Thx a lot guys.. i appreciate the help.

------------------
1990 RS 305 TBI T-5
.5" turbocity spacer
Edelbrock TBI intake
180* stat
Summit 14X3 OpenElement W/k&N
Hooker 3" Areochamber
MSD - Wires, Cap, Rotor, Coil
Bosch Platinum +4 plugs
Metallic Red w/28,000 Pampered miles
(Still have the original wiper blades)

Pukka

Your "base" timing is the only thing you have complete control over. All other timing is controlled by the computer. By disconnecting the ESC, you block the computer from adjusting the spark.

If your mechanics did not disconnect the ESC when they played with the timing then it is way off.

I just finished my intake manifold re-installation today, car started up a little rough, adjusted the timing the way I mentioned and it runs fine.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Ok I understand it pretty well now. What do you think I should set my base timing at then. I was thinking 4* for starters and maybe 6*. Does this sound like a good are to be in for the mods that I currently have?


------------------
1990 RS 305 TBI T-5
.5" turbocity spacer
Edelbrock TBI intake
180* stat
Summit 14X3 OpenElement W/k&N
Hooker 3" Areochamber
MSD - Wires, Cap, Rotor, Coil
Bosch Platinum +4 plugs
Metallic Red w/28,000 Pampered miles
(Still have the original wiper blades)

Pukka

Your mods are pretty close to mine...only difference is that I have a fastchip.

I personally feel that 2-4 degrees advanced timing made an improvement. The rule around here is to advance it to the point you get engine knock and then back it down 2 degrees.

Try it at different settings and see for yourself. The next thing you should consider working on is fuel pressure...thats my next project.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

That is exactly what I am going to do once the car runs right. I hope to do headers and FPR by christmas. Now I just have to decide which Regulator I want to buy.


------------------
1990 RS 305 TBI T-5
.5" turbocity spacer
Edelbrock TBI intake
180* stat
Summit 14X3 OpenElement W/k&N
Hooker 3" Areochamber
MSD - Wires, Cap, Rotor, Coil
Bosch Platinum +4 plugs
Metallic Red w/28,000 Pampered miles
(Still have the original wiper blades)

FRMULA

Duh the old rule of advancing till the engine knocks is NFG here. TBI cars have a knock sensor. and will pull out timing accordingly.

THE ECM has no clue what base timing is and it advances or retards timing from that base value. Setting base timing to "0" is the economy setting for running on 87 octane and will not yield much in the performance department.

12 degrees initial is a good starting point you can probably go up to 16. The track is the best place to test and tune. I ran 12 degrees initial and was spraying the 305 with a 135 shot of the ol N20 with no problems.

prscarf

your compression must be some low on your car. there is no hope in hell i can run my intial 12deg advance and leave my stock curve unchanged. my engine would rattle like a diesel!!! i am running 91pump all the time and the dist.is at "0" initial, my curve at 100kpa 4000rpm is 24deg with no pe spark added. any more than this and i am knocking.

383 stroker, 64cc 23deg trickflow heads c/w weiand xcelerator single plane, adapter, cam is an extreme 4x4 comp. Cam. 12-235-2 grind ( .447/.462 lift, duration 210 218 lift @50, 111 lobe separation) . unit has hypr. Flattop floating pistons, eagle cast crank, 5.7eagle rods. 10.2:1 comp. Headers c/w 2.5” flowmaster exhaust. 16147060 pcm, $85def
454tbi 80lbinjectors, no egr.

FRMULA

quote "383 stroker, 64cc 23deg trickflow heads c/w weiand xcelerator single plane, adapter, cam is an extreme 4x4 comp. Cam. 12-235-2 grind ( .447/.462 lift, duration 210 218 lift @50, 111 lobe separation) . unit has hypr. Flattop floating pistons, eagle cast crank, 5.7eagle rods. 10.2:1 comp. Headers c/w 2.5” flowmaster exhaust. 16147060 pcm, $85def
454tbi 80lbinjectors, no egr."

I am talking about timing for a STOCK 305. not a stroker motor.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

If I go to a bsae of 12* will that hurt my idle. Will it idle to high and hang at an idle when the clutch is in before dropping. My idle kind of hangs now but I think I have some sort of timing problem. ALso when the car is running will I get shocked if I touch the wires?


------------------
1990 RS 305 TBI T-5
.5" turbocity spacer
Edelbrock TBI intake
180* stat
Summit 14X3 OpenElement W/k&N
Hooker 3" Areochamber
MSD - Wires, Cap, Rotor, Coil
Bosch Platinum +4 plugs
Metallic Red w/28,000 Pampered miles
(Still have the original wiper blades)

FRMULA

Idle speed is monitored by the TPS (throttle position sensor) If you removed this from your TB you will have to recalibrate it. This is described in your Chilton's Manual.

You should not get shocked by touching your wires unless the plug wires are damaged and allowing current to pass thru the insulating jacket.

I noticed in your first post that you replaced the TPS and IAC motor...did you calibrate them?! This could be the major source of all of your problems. especially the "hunting idle"

[This message has been edited by FRMULA (edited November 20, 2001).]

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

I did not recallibrate them at all.
When I had the dealer check out my car I told them to check the TPS voltage and stuff and they said it checked out ok. How do you recalibrate them? Is it just easier to have a dealer recalibrate them?

------------------
1990 RS 305 TBI T-5
.5" turbocity spacer
Edelbrock TBI intake
180* stat
Summit 14X3 OpenElement W/k&N
Hooker 3" Areochamber
MSD - Wires, Cap, Rotor, Coil
Bosch Platinum +4 plugs
Metallic Red w/28,000 Pampered miles
(Still have the original wiper blades)

FRMULA

YOU TRUSTED THE DEALER?!

Anyway the calibration is described in the Chilton's manual. Since you are at school you can prob. get the manual at the Library or buy another one at a auto parts. Better yet have someone mail yours from home.

I don't recall the voltage values off the top of my head. They are in the MANUAL. You will also need a small socket drive and a multi-tester.

With the igniton in the start position probe the wires of the TPS and see what the voltage is. Slightly loosen the bolts on the TPS and move the TPS until the voltage reading is within specs. Tighen the 2 bolts being careful not to move the TPS.

Disconnnect the battery when you are done to clear any trouble codes.

[This message has been edited by FRMULA (edited November 20, 2001).]

FRMULA

LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT DEALERS... THEY ARE ****ING SCUM.

My uncle works in the business and he will tell you the same thing.

I once had a short in my '88. The fusible links kept blowing at the starter which in essence left the whole car "DEAD". A certain Pontiac (Grossingers) dealer wanted several THOUSAND dollars just to begin troubleshooting. I told him to go **** himself.

You want to know what the problem was? It seemed that the insulation pulled away from the wire on ignition side of the coil, and the bare wire was shorting on the bottom base of the nice new chrome open element air filter I had installed. A couple minutes with some self vulcanizing tape, new fusible links and PRESTO car fixed. not to mention I saved a couple thousand bucks.

The Moral is sometimes the most obvious is overlooked. Take your time and do it right. When you get into a jam think what could you have done that caused the problem. with 27,000 original miles what was wrong with the TPS you replaced? ODDS ARE NOTHING.

Lesson #2 if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Pukka

Then please explain something,

If you disconnect the Electronic Spark Control wire, how does the timing adjust itself when the engine starts to knock?

prscarf

you only disconnect to set your initial timing! then plug it back in and let the computer do the rest.

Pukka

Agreed,

But my question still remains unanswered.

FRMULA
Maybe I'm wrong, but when I disconnect the ESC and turn my distributor too far either right or left it knocks very noticeably. So if the ESC is out of the loop, what else can back down the timing? I thought I knew the relationship between timing and these TBI engines, but maybe I'm missing something....could you explain?

Also, How you set the base advance to 16 degrees on a TBI engine? Last time I checked the timing marks only ranged from 12 to -4.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Pukka,

you sound like you are habing a lot of the problems I am having. I tried to time it myself to and got no where. Car would knock or die out. Yea dealers are useless but my dad took my car there when i was at school so i didn't really have a choice. I changed most of my sensors because I thought I had ruled out timing and other stuff as the problem. I figured since my car sat so much maybe some of the electronic sensors were bad or malfunctioing. I am going to learn as much as I can now so that when I mess with it in the spring I will be able to get it right.

Thanks for all the imput guys. If I didn't have this site I would be stuck taking my cars to no talent a$$ clowns that can't fix cars.

This intake install has been my biggest headache ever.

------------------
1990 RS 305 TBI T-5
.5" turbocity spacer
Edelbrock TBI intake
180* stat
Summit 14X3 OpenElement W/k&N
Hooker 3" Areochamber
MSD - Wires, Cap, Rotor, Coil
Bosch Platinum +4 plugs
Metallic Red w/28,000 Pampered miles
(Still have the original wiper blades)

Pukka

I'm not having any probs, just asking for some info verification.

My experience (for what its worth)tells me these engines begin to knock when you move the timing either way, past 6 degrees (at least on pump gas) I've seen many posts here that suggest 6 is about as far as you can go safely. But I've never heard of anyone setting the base timing to 12 or higher before.

Shifty, I suggest you start from scratch with your timing. The only SURE way to know you are at TDC is to use the method FRMULA mentioned above. Once your crank and distributor are lined up, verify your spark plug wires are in the correct order. Then try to adjust your timing again.

You may have a problem with your IAC and TPS, but I doubt it. I once spent several day mulling over those sensors before I discovered a faulty fuel pump. Even if they are not calibrated, they shouldn't be so far off that your engine would suffer the way you say it is.

Just keep trying, I'm sure you will figure it out.

fast_broker

iTrader: (1)

I did not read the whle post but is your EGR functional and actually working??? If not, the added EGR spark can/will cause knock.

FRMULA

FRMULA
Maybe I'm wrong, but when I disconnect the ESC and turn my distributor too far either right or left it knocks very noticeably. So if the ESC is out of the loop, what else can back down the timing? I thought I knew the relationship between timing and these TBI engines, but maybe I'm missing something....could you explain?

Also, How you set the base advance to 16 degrees on a TBI engine? Last time I checked the timing marks only ranged from 12 to -4.

#1 you answered your own question. Turning the distributor affects your initial base timing, so yes if you advance or retard the distributor too much the engine will knock.

#2 A good old fashioned timing gun has a dial on it to set advance, mine has a keypad. Nevertheless you dial in the degrees of advance you want on the TIMING LIGHT, you might notice that the speed of the strobe light changes, then you advance the distributor till you get "0" in your timing marks.

To check yourself, dial your light back to "0" and check the timing marks. You will now see that your base timing is that value you wanted. Yes 16* will be off the marks.

A MSD BOX CAN MESS UP SOME GUNS, MEANING YOU WILL NOT BE ACCURATE. you will notice this when you shine the gun on the timing marks and the mark seems to jump around, rather than stay in one place. Disable your 6AL box, i have found that the older style dial type guns are not affected by this.

Pukka

About the EGR, Shifty...does your new manifold have the EGR holes drilled into the throttle bores?

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

All EGR is hooked back up. The Edelbrock intake is street legal and everything bolted right back on. It was an easy install. I just can't tune the car to save my life. I am thinking I might have a leak in the egr somewhere.

So heres what I will do when I get the car.

1. Recheck the timing (put it at about 4-6*)
2. Check TPS voltage
3. Ckeck EGR gasket on the manifold for possible leak.



------------------
1990 RS 305 TBI T-5
.5" turbocity spacer
Edelbrock TBI intake
180* stat
Summit 14X3 OpenElement W/k&N
Hooker 3" Areochamber
MSD - Wires, Cap, Rotor, Coil
Bosch Platinum +4 plugs
Metallic Red w/28,000 Pampered miles
(Still have the original wiper blades)

Pukka

I don't think you understand exactly what I'm asking about.

The EGR solenoid bolts on top of the manifold. I'm sure the holes to and from the solenoid are drilled and there is an EGR hole from the manifold to the cylinder head.

I'm referring to the 2 holes located inside of the throttle bores.

The reason I'm asking was that when I got my used one, it looked like someone did a hack-job trying to make the holes. Edelbrock couldn't even give me an explanation when I asked why the holes were there. I found out by squirting water through the holes just to see where the water came out.

If you do not have the holes there it would block the EGR gasses which could cause knock. It could also cause gasket leaks. Two symptoms you have described.

89 rs305

Have you made sure all your plug wires are in the correct place and are tight? You could have one wire making a bad connection.

------------------
Why drive a mustang when you can embarass one?

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Pukka,

I do remeber seeing holes inside the throttle bores. I was wondering what those were for. I will check to be sure the next time I go home and look at the car. I don't think it could be EGR related but I might be wrong. I called edelbrock to looking for help and the people there had no freakin clue what I was talking about. They were like "EGR...huh.....yea about that.....ummm...ya know I don't know"
Every time I replace or fix a problem the car gets a little better. I can't wait to go home and mess with the timing and TPS voltage. I bet the dealer messed up when they timed the thing. I hope they put the distributor back in correctly at TDC so I can just time it without lining anything up.

89 rs305,

I did check all of my wires. I numbered them with masking tape and rechecked them like a million times. At first I thought it was just a miss from putting the wires on wrong, so i checked the wires to make sure they were plugged in right, but when the car is cold she runs smooth. So that leaves me to believe that the wires are ok.

Thanks for the help guys. You're great I think I finally have it narrowed down. I will kepp yo uposted. Keep the help commin'



------------------
1990 RS 305 TBI T-5
.5" turbocity spacer
Edelbrock TBI intake
180* stat
Summit 14X3 OpenElement W/k&N
Hooker 3" Areochamber
MSD - Wires, Cap, Rotor, Coil
Bosch Platinum +4 plugs
Metallic Red w/28,000 Pampered miles
(Still have the original wiper blades)