Tbi-MAX

I thought I had no more love BMonte... hadnt seen you in a while man...

I was anxious for numbers as well, but Alvin was dealing with a mishap... and my tune is only 2/3 completed... I want to get the other things done quickly so I can take it back up there, like next week... to finish the 1/3rd, and refresh things like he said, with the new exhaust and BBC injectors... he said I need exhaust bad... then Ill have a nice dyno, and prob a copy on his website as well...

BTW 350 SBC injectors are plenty powerful for right now....

here is what im cooking up so far....
thinkin bout ordering these like this weekend or early next week...





should have a nice free flow exhaust... with a deep rumble....
----------
OMG, thats my favorite one so far too... If I only had more road... Thanks John...

OHH yea... the trans shoped put that much in it... they have a machine with a hose... and it pumped like 10 qts in like 30 seconds... thats why it was overfilled... so he used a special pump, to take it out from the dipstick area. maybe 1.5 qts he removed... plus we have to count about qtr on the floor of the dyno... but he said tranny fluid spreads... so may have been less...
----------
Its coming FAST... REAL soon...

I told him about the part throttle lockup, and to do whatever he can to make it quick cold start and whatever to make mpg alot better...

Im just amazed with performance... BTW my gas gauge had not move in 2 days, and ive been on it hard... no egr codes, nothing... and I also made those videos and everything... with additional 70-90 miles today... I have no idea what MPG is... but its the best ever!

Cold start this morning, was so quick, I backed off the switch... kinda of different too...

Tbi-MAX

tune related question guys...

about exhaust... I want to do it in parts, as i am on a tight budget and need something like in a couple days.. so please do respond with quick answers... i need the extra cash for my valve covers...

so the longtubes above, I plan to order it.. install them myself... then take it to my exhaust guy, have him custom Y a 3" pipe to my 02 sensor.. then from the 02 back, use my stock 2.5" pipe & new stock muffler temporarily...

that way i can get on the dyno quick... without paying all that $$ for the 3" all the way to the back with the maganaflow muffler just yet.... My exhaust guy wants $200 for the custom Y 3" with 3" to the back, and welding the new muffler.... I know im being a cheap skate, but I have to do this fast...

i dont think it will effect the tunning with the 2.5" & stock muffler vs the 3" pipe & maganaflow muffler? I think the important part would be that I have longtubes over the shorties and a 3" Y for the tune?


do chime in... as im leaning to this idea, after i slept on it... maybe he only charges me 50$ for the custom Y to the 02... then I go complete the system with 3" all the way back and new muffler around xmas?

another question I was asking, that did not get a full answer on FSC...

if I tune for longtube headers, and in the future I go with a different brand of longtube headers... this should not effect a tune as its tunned for the more flow correct>?

JohnBlazeLTZ

No...you don't need 3 inch all the way back...I mean...sure it wou;d be nice but its not a 650hp beast...YET...so why spend all that money. Are you doing true duals all the way back or no?

Dude...make sure to get everything set up the way its going to be for the tune...changing things could result in decreased perf. and fuel economy. I have always been told...that when its tuned...it should "be" as its going to "be". Meaning...don't tune it if you plan on changing something because that means it'll need a re-tune. Since you are paying to have a shop do it...then they MIGHT require more money to re-tune. This is why I say get it all done in one full swoop and not change anything up. That is why DIY tuning is so valuable. Like everytime Fast and the other guys change something on their set ups...they have the ability to change the tune right there on the spot.

One thing is for sure that Alvin and PCMforLess gets a lot of compliments. They are known around the Impala SS boards and are very popular. You know what...when he's done...you can rest assured that it was done right.

BTW Max...I hate to rub salt in a wound or anything but...if you don't mind me asking...what is the "price tag for cool" so far? From my estimates...your original $3000 is long gone right and I think you are nearing the $5-$6 grand range. Am I close? I love being cool...too bad I am not cool enough yet...aside from my bolt on's...I am still..."GULP"...bone stock engine wise...

LOL...Glad it really is coming together!!! Now don't get nuts and ruin it by racing every little "rice box" you pull up next to!!! Drive it nice!!!

JB

Tbi-MAX

thanks for the great advice John... I was just going by what the guys on FSC said.. 3" straight should have no ill effects, on tq or loss on bottom end... they said 4" is for that 650hp or diesels... Im not going that big.. thats when people get the problems.... John actually my truck originally had 3" exhaust from the cat back.... untill it had to be replaced from the cat back cause it rotted.. but they cheated me and put on 2.5 which they said was the stock fit...

im sure 3" will be a good setup, as alot of guys run it on their FSC... and I had it on mines originally from the CAT back... from what is being said on FSC... the stock shorties is a huge waste of time, very restrictive... not only that but the mandrel bent WYE pipes are terrible... and tiny b4 the 02 sensor...

their will be NO more changes to the burb after I do the long tubes, and install the BBC injectors... thats FINAL! John I have pure faith in PCM4less... Im a witness man... I seen some of the baddest vehicles, blown, staged nitrous, turboed while I was up there... they tune alot of things excellently! I seen like 20G setups just siting in almost each vehicle... thank you for your great recommendation from the start!

again NO more changes after I do this... except like I said the 3" pipe and muffler... I doubt those will effect things via after the 02 bung... the middle pipe where my cat should be also is already 3" too... my pipe is a combo of both sizes right now... Im also telling Alvin how im going to finish the exhaust, see what he says...

BTW future updates to the pcm are 50$ but im still not getting anything updated after this... and im not paying when I go back, as I have to finish my other tune... I really Im just blessed to be local; BUT to anyone else DIY tunning is absolutely the best route if alot of changes has to be made... John it is also I reason it took this long for me to get a dyno tune, cause I was fixing, and still adding, changing stuff. etc...

John Im a guesstimate here... but ill sum up the tickets... about 3 in the motor, 1.6 on the trans.. Its still bellow 5G!! so IMO its still a budget setup!

PS, im taking it easy on the truck... I wont race the things that are easy to kill... but I await the night a 2500hd 6.6L diesel revs @ me at a light again... If i ate it without a tune, ill prob just straight murder it this time... with my 6.3 tuned stroker....

Alvin really wants it to flow better on exhaust... and the bottleneck is the stock shorty headers, and the small Y pipe... that being said... longtubes, and the 3" Y pipe b4 the 02 bung... should make huge difference...

the smaller .5 inch pipe and stock exhaust cant be that big of a restriction, as the stock exhaust is fairly new too...

JohnBlazeLTZ

Max...so yo are using a 3 inch single out exhaust? Is that what I am reading or are you going to true duals?

True duals will gain you more...but I have read articles that suggest that a single out system in itself really doesn't decrease perf. TOO much...especially on trucks.

Here's my exhaust set up:

9C1 TBI Caprice Y-Pipe with 3 inch outlet
Catco 3 inch in/out cat converter
3 inch pipe from cat to muff
3 inch in/out Magnaflow muff
2.5 inch outlet pipe to rear bumper

I have had many compliment on this set up. I have the really weak 305 peanut cam in my LTZ and too much exhaust would kill it I believe. When I rev it out for guys...they walk around back and say...."You don't have true duals? It sounds like it." So...I got the desired effect and didn't have to spend the money. The engine is so weak ...true duals would've been a waste for me. Besides...my trans cross member only has an opening for a single out system. BUT...I did just receive a great package in the mail from a friend...its a 1993 Caprice trans cross member with a cut out on the drivers side that has been reinforced with steel to allow for true duals. Best 35 bucks I have ever spent. LOl...tell me where you can get a trans cross member for 35 bucks! LOL...its good to have friends!!!

Gotta run man...I will check back later...

JB

Tbi-MAX

cool setup John

personaly I HATE duals... YES it will be a 3" single exhaust... as I have 1 02 sensor, and dont just want it on 1 side or 1 bank of the system... like alot of guys do when they switch to duals.... IMO a single setup will be MUCH more accurate reading for my 02 sensor! and I like them better as far as looks!

FSC has alot of good threads, and everyone last person complain about duals, or loss in the bottom end, espically with 3" pipe and duals... some people complain with 2.5" straight pipe and duals, of lost in bottom end, etc... without a X or H pipe of some sort... I hate duals with a passion... like you said the single can be just as good if setup correctly...

Its like seeing a diesel truck with duals... that will look so stupid... VS a big 4" exuast.. single just looks ALOT better...

my setup will be lil similar to yours, just 3" wYe as pipe itself, and no cats... and 3" to the tail pipe... no tip of none of that crap... I hate tips also...

JohnBlazeLTZ

Cool...BTW...a dual outlet muffler would allow two exit pipes and it will offer a slight increase in back pressure...remember the old Monza style exhaust? Yup...that is the same effect. I almost did that on my Cappy but I didn't have enough room over the axle. I would've had to run it out in front of the rear Pass. wheel which didn't want to do.

Isn't there a way to use two sensors? I think the later years had two sensors...I though the 1994-1996 Imp SS's had more sensors than my 1993 TBI Cappy LTZ.

BMmonteSS

If you are looking for a big cheap exhaust you might look at the local junk yards and see if you can find a stock exhaust off a 6.0 chevy. It's got big mandrel bent 2.5" y-pipes that dump in to a 3 or 3.5 main pipe. I would think you could pick one up for way less than a 100$. The general layout of the truck is close so it should be easy to make work.

You car guys might want to look towards the new chrysler 300, charger, magnum exhausts. The SRT's have dual 2.75" pipes with a x-pipe. I got one for my 300 for $40.

Tbi-MAX

yea, I see that dual muffler too.. it would even eliminate a Wye pipe... but i still passed on it... its so easy to do duals on mine, cause its a 2wd, and lots of space.. but i just like the looks of single better...

96+ were equipped with the dual cats, and dual 02s, and even dual post cats 02s... Ive read that my truck also even has a extra harness on the drivers side for a extra 02... as some trucks my year did have true duals.... but I never investigated it.. Im sure it does... but.. more money to spend on 2 02s, 2 mufflers, 2 pipes... etc, maybe even 2 cats... when inspection time comes.. for visual... :dunno:

ill stick with my single... i dont have enuff time, or money to do the duals or anything that drastic in time for my re tune... and i dont really want to throw more money at the truck...

ill see if I can pm you the thread... but single can flow just as much as dual when done right, it scavenges the exhaust well.. ill pm you the thread of single vs dual...
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yepp great idea, hadnt thought of that... ill give it a investigation... but its hard to find the newer bodies with the 6.0 around here... but I did plan on using a 6.0 exhaust NEW Corsa muffler on my setup, when I do put in the new muffler later on.... it sounds badass man... and it will be on a OBS...

Tbi-MAX

holly crap batman... when did valve cover sets become 80-350 $? WTF! Ill be hitting the junk yard on those.. all i need is the drivers side... and i need the black/dk brown cover.. cant even find them... all this chrome junk.. i hate chrome!

i shouldn't run into any issues with a used cover, I take it? if it looks well, and not bent or dented... and center bolt? cause my tbi covers worked good on the vortec...

anyways the valve cover leak is minor, and what really leaked the most was the tranny... which was overfilled... had maybe 2-3 drops of oil on ground after those high rpms.... so I take it, im just gonna do the LT, and custom Y, with priority 1st... and a new pod gasket set, to install the 90#s... then take it back up there like this week...

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

What I do on the valve covers is pretty simple, but works very well. Take the gasket and use RTV to glue it to the valve cover. Let the RTV get tacky, then bolt the valve cover on. I bet it won't drip a single drop out. They like to seep around the smooth painted surface of the valve cover. The RTV stops the seep.

As far as the exhaust goes. The 1996-2002 fullsize G2500 and G3500 vans have almost the same setup as the newer 6.0s do.

Tbi-MAX

thanks... great advice man! that is going to save me on some valve covers... I have some sealant already too... ill pull it today, and do that... thanks a million man! feel stupid now..


maybe you help me, as Im very confused on what to order from summit...

actually... i got a different part #, the primary pipes are bigger, BUT are round, instead of oval... Im not positive what my cylinder head shape is... so when I searched vehicle specific for my year on summit, all that do show up are OVAL!!

ROUND cylinder shape... lil thicker primaries

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...0+&appfilter=1


OVAL cylinder shape...

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...part=SUM-G9006


since the others vehicle specific for my year is oval, im going to get the oval one, even though it has slightly smaller primaries...

its hard to pick, cause I think summit only list according to emissions, o2 locations or something? both headers are for a 350 block... so I take it both will still bolt up and clear everything; once I do the custom wYe pipe?

I just dont want to order, and not bolt up, isnt all the 350 blocks the same? as far as i can tell, both those Summit longtubes I listed; Summit doesn't show in their list as vehicle specific... but say will fit a 91 ending year? I have a 2wd OBS model... 92-99

I also have the vortec heads, but my tbi exhaust that were on my tbi heads, mounted directly up....

Tbi-MAX

bump! im off to pull my drivers side cover... but can someone please help with the exhaust question? im going to call summit, see what they say.. but who knows as they dont know much...

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Well the top set says it is for a big block. The bottom set has 1 1/2 inch primary tubes. Way small for a performance 383 in my opinion.

I don't know how high you plan on winding your motor or the heads. If you are only going to spin it in the low 5000 range than I would go with 1 5/8" headers. If you plan on going to the 6000rpm range I would look for 1 3/4" headers.

I also do not like the 5/16" flange on either of those listed. I would prefer a 3/8" flange if I was in your shoes. You don't want header gasket leaks. So keep looking.

I also posted on the FSC site with my recently installed HT383E in my Tahoe. I used 1 5/8" short headers with good results and a 3/8" flange.

Tbi-MAX

thanks for the correction with the headers, so im looking at the SBC version then...

a bit of confused now... I mean I understand your points, by giving what pipes for what rpms.... But.... If what you are saying is true... why is my stock restricted anchor boat shorty headers, with ultra restrictive stock wye pipe, still spinning over 5K rpm ?? I know its way less that size for the summit SBC... it felt very good, and didnt hesitate to rev at all... so I still take it the summit longtubes will be alot better still.. night and day difference... and thats about all I need... immediately after headers, im starting a 3" wye pipe, to single 3" main exhaust... that will be alot better flow in my eyes.. Im just saying from what ive witnessed... and if the stockers are as bad as they say... then i should gain a good bit better off... Im not building a race engine man.. 2-3k, and this thing is flying already...

heck.. does anyone know the size of the inner stock header? I seen a pic b4 and I believe it was about half the size of its shell... If we had the primary measurements we can compare the two. The summit is 1 1/2...

this is how it revs, with the stock restricted primary headers & wye pipe; past 5K, it bottoms out on the pin.. It responded to everything I did on the throttle, those are my exact movements...


they say anything is better than the stock setup... so can you PLEASE tell me if the SBC version Summit longtubes... will bolt up to my block, & clear the frame??? << that is mainly what im asking....

Tbi-MAX

alright, from what i found out... 1.5 primaries should be VERY good for low end torque!! Good for a lower end torque monster 383 in my book! another reason why the stock exhaust are anchor boats, but they help provide lots of tq down low...

again, not planing on revving that high.. maybe 5500 or so... you have to remember, even with the 1.5 primaries, I have 3" collectors, and longtubes...

ok you don't like 5/16 (.313) flange you prefer 3/8 (.375) flange.. i have seen expensive headmans from 5-700$ and they come with 5/16 flange... < do you think they leak exhaust??

again, you are thinking of some all out 383 built to revv @ 6-8000 rpm.. this is a daily driver 383 built for low end grunt in a heavy Burban and again the smaller primaries will help in my tq better down low and more flat...

please do chime back in....

BMmonteSS

It'll rev past 5k, heck it'll probably hit 7k if you hold it down long enough. What he's saying is that it will restrict power past those points. I would steer clear of the 1 7/8" headers as you have a big heavy truck, you'll be trading torque for HP. A decent set of 1 5/8" long tubes will do just fine.

Tbi-MAX

hmm, that made sense.. as you just explained it... when i search vehicle specific for my year, all that do show 1 5/8 & 1 3/4... man, what a bumer... so that means if I get mid length, or shorties, 1 5/8 that will be better? than the 1.5 long tubes?

what are the stock primaries? crap... Im really trying to budget... but looks like im going to have to dish 2-400$ on some pipe??

*EDIT

the 1 5/8s im looking at all dump into a 2.5 collector?
the 1.5 dumps into a 3" collector... I would think that would be sufficent flow? cause my entire exhaust is 3" immediatley after the longtubes.. even the wye is 3"

Tbi-MAX

i just found that...

rocko350

I'd get the 1 5/8" to 2.5" mid length header,then have your y fabbed for two, 2.5" into a single 3" into the cat. Then 3" into the muffler followed by a 3" tailpipe. make sure the y uses a high speed merge collector. you can get the y junction from summit. Try searching for floy250300 on summit. This will make the mid length feel like long tubes because the y makes the pipe act like a collector extension (better scavenging with better fitment) and with negligable loss in top end. Could evn save you some money for fab work. This worked very well on my bronco with a 302. I overgeared intentionally to only make top end power. my y pipe size for that was 2" into 2.5 into cat to muffler them 3" out to tailpipe. The slight oversize but shorter length of the primary pipes isnt a problem on your truck, its a volume thing. The goal is to effectively scavenge the cylinder with the relatively shorter duration of the street cam.

Tbi-MAX

im not trying to buy a Y... and i changed my mind again... Im only going with midlengths as a last resort... you are comparing a 302 to a 383... apples and oranges..

this is what im cooking up now... after back and forth on TGO and FSC... I learned alot... Bmonte prob explained it the best so I can see the concept.. & another guy on FSC.. in all, I got lots of info from everyone to be honest.. so thanks to ALL!!

Im looking at the FLOWTECHS or HOOKERS LTs...



FLOWTECHS
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku


but why do they look like mid-length?? comparing to the Hooker... the Hooker even with the 2.5 collectors, say 31" long primaries??

which makes me think they are longer and better? being that im looking for LONG TUBE headers??? The Hooker is also 1 grade thicker...

HOOKER
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku


anyways its between Flowtech & Hooker

Tbi-MAX

FAST355 you were right on the MONEY!

take a look how it was when I pulled the cover... you can see the gasket was soaked in the 1 area to the back... I went ahead and followed your instructions... you know your **** man...



also to the back right... that is how my plug wires got so dirty, from the spray.. but that corner collects oil as you see in the pic.. I guess its how the engine is angled.. but its prob like that on the other side too.. but no leaks over there...


I put the sealant on the cover, then put the gasket on the cover... then bolted to the head... after I cleaned both surfaces 1st... I also waited about 20 mins for it to tack really good.. AS i didn't want to make the mistake I did with the intake manifold and the sealant not tacky... I also let it dry for more than 24hrs.. LOL

right when I was tightening up, sure nuff.. the extra sealant got squished out, where the leak would have occurred...

Ill drive it sometime tmrw... but here it is back together and cleaned up...


if this fixes the top leaks.. which im sure it does.. Im going to detail the entire engine bay this week... then I got to tackle the oil pan lip in the front... my entire oil pan is over tightened, wont budge.. thanks to a stupid mechanic for that...

Tbi-MAX

just wanted to inform... Ive made the decision on the HOOKERS...
the collector on the Flowtechs... look horrendous... poor designed crap, just piece all the pipes at the end type thing...

Hookers it is folks...

rocko350

i gave you information based upon experience and then adjusted the measurements according to your engine size and operating paramaters. just giving you an example of the setup not "do it like i did on my 302"
also i wasn't aware of the shift away from a Y pipe. i had given you information on a merge collector. keep up th positive attitude and congratlations for taking this as far as you have.

Tbi-MAX

damit... i found even more headers... after tricking the search engine.. these headers all are for 350 gen 1 blocks... and alot of applications say C/K truck and up to my year. Some say Suburban, but to year 91...

I really think all of these can work.. so if someone knows, let me know..

these are 1 5/8 primaries, long tubes, with good 3" collectors... but have a 1/4 flange... Im think about taking that risk.. as the performance, and more bang for the buck will be there..

Headman
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...07+4294907048+


Headman Torque boosters
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...07+4294907048+


Headman
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...07+4294907048+


these all fit a gen 1 sbc 350, some say suburban, some c/K pickups.... im almost sure these are the same chassis.. like I said even if the flange...

my eyes are set on this, im sure cause it fits the C1500 pickup.. and thats the same frame as mines...
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...107+4294907048
im prob going to order 1st thing in morning...

ill use some thread locker... and some silicone on the flanges... just for extra insurance...

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I would try to find some Doug Thorley Tri-Y headers. I have a set I picked up for about $225 shipped on Ebay from like Arizona. The coating is discolored, but they actually function like new and are built HEAVY. The flanges are like 3/8-1/2" thick. The pipes are massive. The darn header is heavier than the cast-iron manifold was. The benifit is they seal VERY well, run quietly, and don't heat the engine compartment as bad. The Tri-Y design has AWESOME torque too.



The Tri-Ys are nice pieces. I did measure the pipes once. They are like 1 5/8" into dual 2 1/4" into a single 2.5" collector. I then bolted a 2.5" diameter collector that is like 1 foot long behind them. Talk about some powerful low-mid range torque.

Tbi-MAX

ohh sorry... i did not know you had made a calculated decision, on my setup for the 383 already... I see what you mean by adding the extra pipe, to make it think its longtubes now.. but i really like the look of real longtubes.. im get 1 5/8 primaries & 3" collector long tubes...
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i bet those things are really torquey.. those my friend, are the definition of longtubes looks like a extra half been added... however I wish I can luck up on a deal like that...

Tbi-MAX

its final

im getting these... already ordered them... yes, it was the best bang for the buck! I had to trick the search engine, and some other things to get this listed... it fits C/K pickups from 88-95, gen 1 and 350s.... this should not be a problem fitting into my burban...

its has 1 5/8 primaries, with a 3" collector... that looks worth the price... but the flange thickness is 1/4... a risk im ready to take... as I plan on cutting the flanges between the pipes, taking some of the metal out... so it expands better.. along with locktight, and some silicone... I was told it should not leak at all, and is the best bang for the $$ this was a educated decision I had to make...

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...07+4294907048+


I must say, i learned alot about headers... just this week... lol
I also plan on lengthening my 3 wire 02 to meet in the Y some where lower down, while keeping the resistance down to a minimum....

well i got to call my guy about the wye.....

Tbi-MAX

well FAST355.. Im going to have to pull the covers today, again...
the main trouble spot, I targeted... seemed to have worked like a charm... but along side the long edges... where i made the application thin... is where the leak occured again... I dont think its leaking near as much as b4, specially not leaking from the back of the covers no more... but now towards, the sides.. where it leaked there too...

so it comes off again... with a heavy layer of sealent this time... I may even put some on the head itself?? so it will have sealnt between both gaskets? i think just a heavy coat on the covers all they way around will do the trick... here is a pics of trouble area.

Tbi-MAX

02 sensor location... HELP... tune related...

so Im getting some long tube headers installed... but wanted to know the best location for the best reading... I did some research and found out that ALL OBD2 vehicles have the pre 02 sensor in the headers it self... and the post 02 sensors after the cat...

my stock 3wire 02 sensor OBD1 is far from the headers, and after the Y-pipe, but b4 my cat converter... I thought it would be better there as it can read from both banks (2 headers)

I was told NO... its better to read from 1 bank... and actually have it in the LT header itself, b4 the collector, but not in/on the primaries..

so that means, Ill have 1 02 sensor in the passenger long tube b4 the collector... (1 bank)

will this be more accurate of a reading from 1 bank, VS after the Y where it can read from both banks?

I know its a lil confusing. but please help if you know or have experience...

I was told it was only put there in the Y and b4 the cat... to lean things out.. for environment...

If ill get the same or better reading in the header.. Ill prob put it there... I know it will get hotter in the header... which is my reason, why they do it on OBD2 vehicles... is it the better reading?

OBD2 vehicles also have a sensor in each bank....


i didnt want to start this in a new thread...

I was also told, that #2 would flow better... even though I wanted something like #3... cause its closer to stock almost... but this is a basic layout i did last night... im going to make sure they make everything FREE flowing...

oh yea, where i plan for the wb 02... thats where my STOCK nb 02 was...


here is the 02 I was thinking... but let me know after the questions I had above...

Tbi-MAX

??anyone??

Tbi-MAX

well just in case anyone is following, and wants to know whats going on... these came today...






on my 02 sensor placement... i figured it out on my own...

since i have a batch fire system, both banks should still be pretty much the same, unless i have faulty, runners imperfection, un-flow match injectors, etc...

also the further away I put the 02, the cooler reading it gets... so after the Y-pipe is still too far really... the stock location was to far.. but they did this to help lean the mixture, by placing my 02 directly in front of the cat almost. and after the Y.... EPA crap...

Im going to put my 02, in the passenger side longtube header collector... for a more hot, accurate reading, without allowing the exhaust to cool upon travel.. also this helps if 1 side is little lean, it will richen up both sides quicker to compensate...

thanks for the help!

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

First two years I had my WB02 immediately after the collector in the ext pipe. The Bosch WB sensor goes not tolerate excessive heat very well or it does not tolerate condensation very well on cold start or both. Regardless I had sensor failures every 4 months of use. sensor was at 3 oclock position. I moved the sensor back about 16-18 inches(now 12 inches ahead of the rear axle in vette) and now I have had no failure in 5 months of daily use. Innovate said sensor failure is not unusual in permanent install like mine. they suggested moving it back in ext stream.

Tbi-MAX

from the research i did.. you want to use a 10-to-2 position... anything else cause premature, failure.. 12 position is best from what ive read. I dont know if this had anything to do with your premature failure...

but 12" from the rear axle, seems to far to me, and less cooler reading... I think your setup will be more accurate closer up... the exhuast has lost almost most of its temperature right after the headers, and the rest of the pipe, just helps it to cool even more, angles, curves etc.. resulting in a slightly incorrect reading..

ex: by the time it does read lean, its been lean for some time b4...
does this make sense?

Tbi-MAX

well im also looking for a BBC throttle body... Im going to mount that to my low rise carb to spread bore intake... It will help the engine breathe more air, to complement with my new exhaust system... Ive called the entire phone book for used 454 TB, and got the same answers... "nope, no sir, cant help ya, noo, i cant tell the last time ive seen that, you got to buy the entire engine"

well its still hope, cause 1 shop is getting their hands on it for me, along with a BBC spacer & heat riser. if that fails, im going to get something on ebay. I just need the base, with the bigger throttle blades, as I have my own injectors, and will transfer my own sensors...

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Innovate says 9 to 3 oclock. just so it does not lay in water. sometimes no room to put at say 1-2 oclock. you will note the cord as it runs into sensor takes up some room and requires clearance from body. clearance is an issue anyway on a vette. truck may be OK to run 1 oclock. Innovate also allows a portable use in rear talepipe as does any dyno. does fresh air contaminate readings in that regard? maybe. at idle it is possibly so. at speed I doubt any reversion of fresh air from rear of car. but i believe mine is accurate where it is. Innovate said move it back and i did. so far so good.

Tbi-MAX

i do agree with that part... on WB 02 from my research, the WB 02 belongs in the Y-pipe... to get a reading from both banks... not in the collector like a NB 02.. which just needs a reading from 1 bank. I also plan on getting a extra 02 bung welded into my Y pipe, and sealed offed with a dead 02 for future usage... of that bung..

BronYrAur

iTrader: (1)

I agree with your decision on placement of the O2, even though it's heated being a 3wire, I still think the best place for it is as close to the engine as possible while attaining the biggest sample possible, hence the collector.

As Ronny did, I also have my Innovate WB sensor just in front of where the cat should be, it works well, survived one season so far, and was as accurate as I can tell.

As far as the BBC TBI goes, remember that you will definitely need tune refinements after swapping that on. Just be sure you're ready to make changes before you make the swap. The IAC is a bigger valve and the throttle blades are bigger, this means that with the slightest opening of the throttle lets in a much larger amount of air. You'll have to redo all your IAC stuff in the prom as well as probably some AE. On top of that, the stock TBI is probably restricting the 383 up top, if that is the case you'll also need to retune WOT.

Good luck with it, I bought a Holley 670 base and swapped on a GM injector pod, worked out pretty good for the most part, but the throttle always stuck a hair open and it drove me crazy. Probably was just old bushings or worn spring though, so don't take that into account.

Tbi-MAX

thanks BronYrAur... that is the word I couldn't find or think of... "sample rate"... I do agree, even being a 3 wire, I want it in the collector itself... I also hope to attain even better MPG by this too... cause the sample rates will be alot more, and more accurate...

yes, im going to get the tune for my adjustments... b4 I even drive it. or possibly, just do the swap b4 it goes on the dyno... ill wire everything up b4 hand, with some t-taps...

being that the IAC is a bigger valve, I will have to get a new sensor? or just re-clean that sensor depending on its current condition... I am fully aware of the bigger throttle blades.. I sure hopes it breathes better up top too..

Im sure he will retune WOT, part throttle, AE, and IAC counts, pump shot, etc...

am i correct, that the 454 tb, will mount directly to my spread bore to carb low rise intake... I would love to use the spacer that comes with the 454... if not, Ill mount it flat to the intake..

i will have to get rid of my stock 350 spacer and tbi-adapter plate... correct?

this is the intake i use..


i was not sure of the throttle blades would tap the intake if I mount it flat to the intake without the 454 spacer?

also anyone with a 454 TB please do PM me!

rocko350

pm sent

Tbi-MAX

back at ya...

rocko350

sent another pm. not sure if first one got sent

Tbi-MAX

yea, consider it SOLD man, rest assure...

JohnBlazeLTZ

Max!!!!!!!!!!

Here you go...don't say I never helped you with anything!!!

~...Just kidding of course...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/454-3...QQcmdZViewItem

They have 90lb injectors too BTW...I know you already got some...but Xtreme FI has a lot of nice pieces. I have been told that their FPR isn't the best at one time...somebody used one and wasn't impressed but their TB units are well made and they even have a chromed/polished one.

What Fuel Pressure Regulator are you using anyway?

JB

Tbi-MAX

haha thanks John.. you always keep my spirit up man! that looks nice with the extra bore and all.... but I got an unbeatable deal from rocko350. And I will have the BBC tb, riser, sensors, lines, injectors, etc on Mon or so. I appreciate your find anyways... cause man it was hard to find these nowadays... Ill prob do the ultimate tbi mods on it as well... cut ramps, polish...

i just have the stock 350 regulator in the the stock 350 pod... but i plan to use the BBC pod with my bigger 90#s in there.. im not sure if it is vaccum regulated or not... but either way, I can make the BBC regulator adjustable too.. I dont think I need alot of psi with the BBC injectors. I think just 13-15 psi will be ideal, to max my setup out... the lower psi will make for less noisy injectors as well... lol

as soon as I get the BBC tb early next week, Im going to do the mods, and stuff, maybe have to re pin the TPS. I need to get my exhaust completed and installed early next week as well... then it will be off to the dyno to get dropped off... ill put on the BBC tb up there... and let Alvin have at it, for maybe a week or less... hehe

then im done... FINALLY, ill have a dyno sheet of my setup.

the valve cover leak, is under control pretty much, I got to pull it today, and use lots of sealant, on the cover, and even on the header... I was told to do this from another guy, who has alot of higher psi engines... he does it on all his builds..

then only thing that will be left is my overtightened oil pan.. I may just loose it up a little at 1st, to see how it does... if not ill put on a new gasket, and don't over tighten it this time

BMmonteSS

Guy's, with the heated sensors the further away from the manifold you get the longer and more accurate they will be. The idea is that the internal heater does a much better job of keeping the sensor at a constant (not too hot) temperature. As we know temperature greatly effect the output of the O2.

In the scheme of things I wouldn't worry much about sensor placement. If it's an unheated NB get it in the collector, otherwise just stick it where you can keep water from settling in the tip of the sensor.

Tbi-MAX

BMonte, you say the further away the better, & more accurate?? I didnt know it could be "too" hot... I know you are the tuning expert, and my question is technical... do you think it will be better after the Y-pipe, where it can read from both banks? or just as good in 1 bank? as I learned I have a batch fire system... everyone, is telling me the collector is best... but I would like to know from someone who has datalogged, and seen where the sensor works best, and attains best mpg, and the most sample rates...

BMmonteSS

Bank to bank differences shouldn't be that big of a deal unless you have a mechanical issue. As for sample rates, I'm ont sure if I understand where you are coming from with that. You may be confusing this with cross counts or swings. What happens is that the O2 will swing or cross .450 volts when you hit 14.7 to 1 AFR. How hot the O2 sensor is effects how quickly it switches. The idea is that you don't care how quickly it swing just that it's consistant.

Which brings us back to sensor placement. With a single wire O2 it must be heated by the exhaust, so you don't want it too far away. The collector is the logical choice as it's going to be teh warmest point that will get you the most cylinders to read from.

Once you make a move to a heated sensor then you are free'd up to put it where ever it is convienent as the internal heater will keep the sensor at a steady temperature. The problem you can run inot is that you can get the sensor too hot and the heater will not be able to regulate the temp. WB O2's are very sensitive to this and why you hear of failure so much with the sensor mounted in the collectors.


In the scheme of things you'll never notice the difference. It won't effect your mileage, it won't effect power. If you are tuning then you'll be able to compensate for any bias that may be present.

In summary: You are worrying way too much....

Tbi-MAX

ive heard the b4 too... hehe maybe i am... well with that said, I personally think the reading from directly after the Y would be best... cause it can read from both banks, and still be pretty close to the front still... and not overheated by the collector... I want the heated NB 02 at the beginning of the main 3" pipe run... bottom of the Y

Tbi-MAX

Donor 1989 454 suburban...

finally got the hardest part to find... hehe.. the 454 BIG BLOCK CHEVY throttle body injection, with the BIG 2" throttle blades VS the SBC 1 11/16...

Airdeano on FSC flow tested the SBC @ 450 cfm and BBC @ 700 cfm... the guys on 454SS flowed it @ 850cfm...

Since its not a 91+ tb, i have to repin the tps... but luckly he is sending me both the wire harness adapters as well... He also tach welded a new throttle arm, for a 4l60e tranny... so ill be able to keep my cruise as well...

it comes loaded with the 454 heat riser 1.75" spacer to spread bore, 80# injectors im going to switch out to my NEW 90#s, hoses, fuel lines, injector pod and spacer, etc...

I should have it next week early or mid week.. im so ready.. I have to get a rebuild kit for the pod, so i can change the injectors, and rebuild it... also going to do the ultimate tbi mods, cut the ramps, and polish it... then Im going to clean it up really well, and prob hit it with some high heat silver paint...

im still not sure if im going to use the riser, or just use my tbi-adapter plate, and bore that out... hmmm I need help with that decision....


here are the pics he sent me, I cant wait... 454 throttle linkage, for 700 trans


new linkage for the 4l60e tranny with cruise tach welded


and this is all the lines, and everything..



I also think Im going to have Alvin make the PCM turn on the electric fan controls, as I may do that swap little later down the road.. I heard it allows the engine to spin up faster too, and restores some loss hp, and drag...