Ok, here is the lowdown. I changed my stat from a 160 to a 180. And now the engine will last for 30 seconds, throw the SES light and stall out. WTF? Now it was close to runnin out of gas when I was doing this. So I figured I just ran out of gas. So I went up to the gas station (with my brothers gas can which he uses for his dirtbike, but it was empty and I cleaned it out just to make sure) and went and bought 5 gallons of 92. Put it in and it stalled out again. Ran for 30 seconds fine, then sputers out and stalls with the SES flashing when it sputers. So whats up? Why is it running so rich now? Hell, I looked out my exaust tips and there was a SH-T load of carbon deposit everywhere on the floor from just starting it and revving it. Then there is this plug. BTW: This plug is only 3 months old!


Oh and Mike (onefine) I heard u love my car. I am glad u admire it so much. LoL

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI

ASCD Ram Air Hood-3" custom exaust-Flowmaster 80 Series-No Cat-Edelbrock TES Headers (coated)-March Pulleys-TBI Spacer-K&N Open ELement-TransGo Shift Kit-B&M Supercooler 28,000 GVW-Hypertech Thermomaster-180 Stat-3:42 GM Gears-Auburn Posi Unit-Edlebrock Strut Tower Brace-MSD Superconducters-MSD Cap & Rotor-MSD Blaster Coil-Rapidfire Plugs-265/50/R15 Tires-Emmison's all Gone-Free TBI mods
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html

[This message has been edited by 91Bird305 (edited February 05, 2001).]

 

check all you sensor connections. if the IAT, O2, or MAT fail or are not reading, the computer just throws gas at the engine. it will run like s*** and ruin yer plugs. do you have a scanner to see what code it is pitching?
hope this helps.

lata
tim

------------------
91 Camaro RS-LO3,Auto.
14.301 @ 94.39mph
The car is going street strip for next season. 13's here i come!!!!!
Edlebrock TES Headers, Cat Eliminator Pipe, Borla Adjustable Cat Back,Marche Pulleys, HyperTech Chip,Transgo Shift Kit,B&M Convertor(2000stall),Steve Spohn Rear Rig( all rod ends), Poly Front Bushings,Ported TB, 350 Injectors, Edlebrock Performer TBI Intake, Performer Heads, 1.6 Roller Tipped Rockers
http://www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=299

 

I wish I had a scan tool dam it. I just swapped back the 160 stat and it still stalled out. So it isn't the stat. Think maybe I ran out of gas for real the first time and by using my brothers dirtbike gas can (where he mixes his gas with oil and 92) that I could be running rich that way?

 

Why do you need a scan tool? Can't you just ground the test terminal to find out what code it is? Works on all mine.

------------------
1989 Pontiac Firebird
Formula W6S LO3 TBI 305
-180 degree stat
-Hooker Cat-Back

1985 Camaro IROC-Z LB9

http://www.geocities.com/krt80/

 

Alright, I filled the tank of with some 87 gas and bought some STP fuel injector cleaner on top of the 5 gallons of 92 I already had in there. I figure maybe I got some sediments in the injectors or something and something is going wrong like that. Wel now the car won't even start!! And when I am trying to start it the throttle bores are just FILLING with gas. It cranks but won't turn. New coil,dist,wires so I know it isn't spark. Is it normal for the injectors to be firing that much fuel that is fills the injector bores a 1/4 of the way up? I had some flames shoot out of the bores earlier, was that just because I am running really rich?

 

I just thought of something. Maybe my injectors are bad and leaky and thats why I am running so rich and maybe it has flooded the engine because of it?

 

I'd say it's flooded for sure, be careful about the flames dude. Was it running fine before the new stat? What all did you take off to get to it? The injectors could be screwed up if you got some debris in them from where it was low on gas, but I've run my cavalier out of gas before and it started right back up after I got some gas for it. After the fuel came up through the lines that is. It had to crank for a few seconds first.

If your SES light has been on ever since you got done with the stat then something probably isn't hooked up.

 

I just re-read your post. If the light isn't on from when it first started up it probably isn't an unplugged sensor. See if the injectors drip the gas out, or if they spray it out. If they are spraying it out, it probably isn't the injectors. Do you have a manual with how to get the codes? That code that it is throwing is the key.

The way to get the codes is in the FAQ https://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/faq/thirdgen.shtml .

 

I think it threw that SES light because the car was dying and going to stall. I think the engine is flooded now because it won't even start and I checked for spark on the wires and they all had spark. I am going to take a picture of the injectors when I am cranking it tommorow. See if I can pick up the spray pattern with the camera. I think it might be the injectors.
Yeah I checked the engine and had stuff covering the coil and dist cap when it was throwing fuel out like that. Didn't need the engine up in flames. But now I am stumped. The injectors are spraying but what do I look for in the spray pattern? A cone shape spray and how hard is it suppose to spray when cranking?

 

Swap out your CTS sensor, and stick with a 180º.

------------------
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."

-Thomas Jefferson

 

Where is the CTS sensor at? sorry.

 

I'm not too sure on the TBI, on my car it's in the front of the manifold. Sorry, I'm not too familiar with TBI, this is just a very typical fix for an overly rich mixture. It seems that the car is flooded fairly quickly, so it may be a bit more than just one thing. Have you pulled the codes yet? That is the place to start.

------------------
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."

-Thomas Jefferson

 

Another vote for the CTS. It's sitting in the top of the front part of the intake manifold.

 

91,

Yes - get the paper clip out ans scan for the error codes that are setting the MIL when it dies. That might give you a really BIG hint.

------------------
Later,
Vader
------------------
"I'm gonna talk about some freaky sheet now..."
Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0
KaleCo Auto Parts

 

Hey man i know what your problem is. I ran into a similar problem when my pickup coil in my distributer went out. You are way out of time. Your distributer has probably been turned. The reason it runs for about 30 seconds is because your car has a knock sensor thing. If your car is detonating it can change your timing by as much as 15 degrees. Well where your timing is way off it senses that it is detonating and sets the timing back. after about 20 to 30 seconds it will shut off, letting the distributer control the timing. mark your distributer where it is at now and then try turning it small amounts at a time. If you have a timing light and can get it started. you should be able to set it on 0 and it will run. If this ain't the problem then it is probably bad injectors. but to test this when you start it keep the pedal down. Keep it about 3000 rpms. If it still stalls out it is not in the fuel lines it may be electrical or physically out of time.

[This message has been edited by bullfrawg (edited January 20, 2001).]

 

Actually, I was thinking maybe it was flooding itself out when it would run for 30 seconds and then die. Cause now it won't even start. It will crank but won't turn over.

 

Try unplugging your injectors and cranking it a bit. There won't be anymore fuel going into the engine, so whatever is left in the cylinders should burn up. Once it's been burned out, plug the injectors back in and try it. It actually sounds like an EGR problem, my Suburban had the same thing happen and it was the EGR valve and it's control unit.

 

Well how did ya fix that???

 

91bird305, on your page doesn't it say you have removed the emmitions stuff? If it is the EGR and you haven't blocked it off, just do that mod.

 

My previous owner removed the AIR and smog pump and there is some rewiring in front of the intake that he has done. Don't know what that is all about. So how would I cap off or block off the EGR if he hasn't already done it?

[This message has been edited by 91Bird305 (edited January 22, 2001).]

 

I've never done it yet so I can't give exact instructins. For a test I think you could just take the vacuum line off of it, and plug it, that is if the thing isn't stuck open.

EDIT: The EGR is under the air cleaner on the intake, it's round, usually bronze in color, it has a big heavy looking chuck of iron that it mounts to the intake with.

This may help.
https://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/t...diagnose.shtml



[This message has been edited by Keith5 (edited January 22, 2001).]

 

Yeah, I know where its at. i will have to try that test thing when I go home next. I know for a fact that the vaccum line is still hooked up though. I will do the injectors thing to, unplug them and what not.

[This message has been edited by 91Bird305 (edited January 22, 2001).]

 

Man I am telling you that if it is out of time it won't start. You should at least test it. If it is just a rich mixture it will start if you hold the pedal to the floor while you are cranking. If it don't start then it probably ain't a fuel problem. If it does start keep the engine running about 3000 rpms. If it still stalls out it isn't a fuel problem.

------------------
1985 TransAm BLK/GLD Stock
1985 TransAm BLK/BLK
305HO (soon as it is put in) 5-speed, 3.27 posi, WS6, power everthing.
http://www.geocities.com/bullfrawgs

 

BTW, have you actually tested your coil and ignition module? Reasonably simple and it's something most overlook. (Heck, I even forgot to mention 'em initially)
Unless you have played with the distributor, I doubt the timing is so far off it won't start.
You still haven't mentioned any codes you have pulled, and as stated earlier I think it may be a compounded problem with more than one cause. Test your coil, yank your ignition module and go have it tested and post the results. (BTW if the ignition module is bad, have them test the new one before you leave the store!)
Good luck.

------------------
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."

-Thomas Jefferson

 

IF you have check all parts in the distributor and the timing and have held the pedle to the floor while cranking and it still won't start. There might be a very simple fix. When you had the aircleaner off or while taking it off or putting it back you may have snagged your wire to the iac. You may have actually damaged the iac.
-JUST A THOUGHT-

------------------
1985 TransAm BLK/GLD Stock
1985 TransAm BLK/BLK
305HO (soon as it is put in) 5-speed, 3.27 posi, WS6, power everthing.
http://www.geocities.com/bullfrawgs

[This message has been edited by bullfrawg (edited January 22, 2001).]

 

i have another question for you. It has nothing to do with your current problem. WHY DID YOU GET HEADERS WITH THE SMOG FITTINGS? IF YOU SMOG PUMP IS REMOVED THEN WHY DO YOU NEED THEM. IT JUST TAKES UP A LOT OF SPACE.

 

Ok, I tried the putting the pedal to the floor while I cranked and it still wouldn't turn. I didn't get to try very long though because the battery died after that. But before that I did check for spark at the spark plugs and they did have spark. And I haven't messed with the distibutor at all and the car ran fine when I installed the new coil about 4 weeks ago so it can't be that. And I haven't touched anything on the dist. except when I replaced the cap & rotor when I did the coil and it ran PERFECT then too. I will go over all the sensors again just to double check and make sure there all plugged in when I go home next. And I don't have a code scanner so I can't check for codes at this time. I will maybe be able to get a hold of one when I go home next. Don't I need to have the car running in order to check for codes or do I just have to have the key in the "on" position?
Well at the time everyone told me that if I wanted to get Edelbrock TES headers then to gp with the 305 TPI ones (#6872) so I did. I would have gone with SLP but at the time they were a lot more expensive then the edelbrocks were.
Oh and I will try that thing Duke that u told me about next time I go home. See if that works or not. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by 91Bird305 (edited January 23, 2001).]

 

You don't have to have a code scanner to check your codes. There should be somewhere on this site that has pictures of the plug and exact directions how to do it, and the codes and their explanations. But basically you use a paper clip and connect to pins in the plug in the car. Turn the key to on. It will flash the check engine light and that is how it gives you the codes. You count the flashes. I can't remember how the to read the flashes but i am sure it is on this site somewhere.
If it didn't start or even try to start and you are sure it is getting spark it can still be several things. The codes it what you need to narrow it with.

 

Thanks, I will have to try that.

 

To pull codes: https://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/faq/thirdgen.shtml

BTW if you have flooding problems at start up on an EFI car, stomping on the gas at start up does nothing for you, it will only worsen the situation, and may toss a code to boot.

 

REDDEVIL READ YOUR BOOK. It says if the engine is flooded hold accelerator down while starting. The reason you do this is so you get enough air in so the fuel can combust. After it starts if your injectors are spraying too much for idle, keeping the air going in will keep the car running. It works on all kinds of fuel systems. It ain't good to run the car if the injectors are bad but it is a quick way to eliminate part of what the cause may be. And while it is running it will give al the codes you should need to determine the problem.

[This message has been edited by bullfrawg (edited January 23, 2001).]

 

I don't know which way would be right. I know if I were to push the gas down on my camaro it would flood it. That car starts on like the first crank guess because of the TPI.

The firebird I have to crank a little for the fuel to reach the valves, so I can see that it might not cause it to flood as bad. And you have to take into account that a fuel injected car does it's own thing when you start it, it doesn't like to have you interupt it. So I dunno.

------------------
1989 Pontiac Firebird Formula LO3 Auto
-180 degree stat
-Hooker Cat-Back
*****Possible summer '01 mods*****
Open Element, Auburn Posi, Keyless Entry, wonder Bar off the IROC, 4th gen seats, T/A tail lights

1985 Camaro IROC-Z LB9 Auto
http://www.geocities.com/krt80/

 

having problems eh eric???? its gotta suck to try to be a smart *** when ur rides not running.

 

Ok tuff guy. First problem I have ever had with my car. You will get yours when u hit the high mileage. Then I can laugh at u.

 

hey man dont get ur panties all in a bunch. I have had problems with my car, but im smart enough not to break things

 

btw i thought u where running rapid fires??? dont look like one i ever seen

 

Maybe cause their covered in black carbon desposits u f-cking idiot.
BTW: How did I break things cool guy?

[This message has been edited by 91Bird305 (edited January 24, 2001).]

 

your information to this topic is useless, so why dont you just stay out of it until you have something helpful to say


[This message has been edited by cobrakiller1989 (edited January 24, 2001).]

 

becouse i hate ****y mutherfu*kers who have no clue what thier talking about. Eric maybe if u didnt beat the hell out of ur car ur rings wouldnt be shot and ur plugs wouldnt be fouling out.

 

hmm i dont remember this being n e useful information BTW i do admire ur car, from the fake *** non alinging hood to the overly wide 15inch tires lets just end this arguement on that note

 

I seen on your soon to come list that you were making the adjustable fpr. I you have it may just be set to high. Does your ses light still come on when you turn the key to the on position?


[This message has been edited by 9177 (edited January 24, 2001).]

 

BWHAAA, yeah, end it on YOUR note. I just said that cause I heard you liked my car, thats all. When did I say I know everything? Hey, u think my rings may have gone bad. And I didn't know I had 15 inch TIRES. Thanks Mike.

Hey 91, I still have to install that afpr, so I know my fuel pressure isn't high. And yeah, the SES light does stay on when in the on posistion I beilve, but doesn't everyones when u have it turn forward but not backwards all the way?

[This message has been edited by 91Bird305 (edited January 24, 2001).]

 

Yes, your light should be on when you just turn the key to on. That just tests the light, everybody's does that. Unless you have the test terminal grounded then it should blink with the key just turned to on.

 

Yup, thats what it does and then it turns off right?

 

Hey 91, I still have to install that afpr, so I know my fuel pressure isn't high. And yeah, the SES light does stay on when in the on posistion I beilve, but doesn't everyones when u have it turn forward but not backwards all the way?

Just checking you said you haven't checked for codes and i have seen a couple cars that had the same problem as yours and it turned out the ecm was not fuctioning. the light when you turn the car on lets you know the ecm is there and working

 

Yeah, when I go home next I will post what codes I threw (if i can get a ride home first ) or try to get a hold of a code scanner or just do the paper clip thing. I think its either the injectors or one of my sensors are bad.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html

 

Holding the throttle wide open while cranking WILL clear flood. The ECM sees WOT and crank mode, and it DECREASES the injector dwell in order to clear a flooded situation.

Don't belive it? When your car is warm, shut it off, turn the key back on, put the pedal ALL the way to the floor, and crank it. It won't start.

If you put the pedal part way down, It will inject a ton of fuel. Clear Flood Mode is only at WOT, during cranking.

[This message has been edited by Tom 400 CFI (edited January 25, 2001).]

 

Thanks Tom.

 

Made any progress?

 

I havent been home yet from college so I haven't even touched it yet. I don't think I am going to be able to do anything until spring break since I have no money to go anywhere anyways.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html