tbi to tpi
#1
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 1,459
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 92 trans am clone
Engine: LO3
Transmission: 700r4
tbi to tpi
ok if i went from my 305 tbi to a tuned port intake and new fuel pump and computer off an 88 350tpi setup would i be seeing any gains if so how much?
#2
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 1,459
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 92 trans am clone
Engine: LO3
Transmission: 700r4
also to me it looks like the tpi set up wouldnt fit with my a/c and altenator as they are placed. please help me i need to know soon. can anyone else notice if i will have any other problems or such maybe it would work i dunno
#3
Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: TX
Posts: 263
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 91 firebird
Engine: 350
Transmission: t-56
Originally Posted by vipershark11
ok if i went from my 305 tbi to a tuned port intake and new fuel pump and computer off an 88 350tpi setup would i be seeing any gains if so how much?
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Moreno Valley, CA
Posts: 748
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1990 Camaro RS
Engine: 305 TBI (L03)
Transmission: 700R4 (MD8)
Axle/Gears: 2.73 Open (GU2)
You would need more than that...
If you sold your TBI car you could take that money and add $500 and buy a TPI car for cheaper than you would get all the TPI parts for.
If you sold your TBI car you could take that money and add $500 and buy a TPI car for cheaper than you would get all the TPI parts for.
#5
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 1,459
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 92 trans am clone
Engine: LO3
Transmission: 700r4
the set up is only costing me 250 no installation or anything cause i know mechanics very well. and im not selling my car after all ive done to the body interior etc etc. i just want the tpi maybe get a bit of a gain thats it i just want to be happy plus i want it to look clean under the hood not with the huge spaceship looking thing
#6
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 10,119
Received 428 Likes
on
368 Posts
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Its NOT worth switching to TPI on a stock TBI long-block. You will have about the same power with a mass-air TPI setup. With a Speed Density setup, you are likely to lose power! I will maintain that swapping to TPI is about worthless from a performance stand point. Stock TPI engines make more power because of the cam, exhaust, and ECM tune. They have better performance because they have more power due to the cam/exhaust, have better gearing, bigger tires, and usually a posi.
#7
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 1,459
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 92 trans am clone
Engine: LO3
Transmission: 700r4
ok if i add a L98 cam wouldnt the computer be tuned so the car would run properly with the cam added and L98 cam works with stock heads correct? and im getting the MAF setup off an 88 o and i would have been able to throw in the caprice 350 tbi motor underneath but my cousin robbed me of it so now i gotta play catch up with his swap
Last edited by vipershark11; 04-23-2006 at 11:12 AM.
Trending Topics
#8
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 10,119
Received 428 Likes
on
368 Posts
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Originally Posted by vipershark11
ok if i add a L98 cam wouldnt the computer be tuned so the car would run properly with the cam added and L98 cam works with stock heads correct? and im getting the MAF setup off an 88 o and i would have been able to throw in the caprice 350 tbi motor underneath but my cousin robbed me of it so now i gotta play catch up with his swap
When you get done, you will be stuck with an anemic LTR TPI setup that falls on its face above 4,500 rpm. You WILL have a little more torque in the 2,500-3,000 rpm band, but that is it. The TBI will make more TQ from idle-2,500 rpm and make more HP above 4,500 than the LTR TPI.
The TPI is a poor choice for the stock TBI gears and torque converter. Notice how the TPI parts differ. Installing the L98 cam is about the worst thing you can do with your current setup. Then you have to realize that the TBI heads require a totally different timing advance curve than the TPI heads do.
I would run from the swap and stay TBI.
Use about 1/3 the cash and get into chip burning.
For power I would do a full exhaust from the exhaust ports back, open element or dual snorkel air cleaner, ultimate TBI mods, adjustable fuel pressure regulator, get into chip burning, and then look into a cam of some form. I know of 3 cams that stick out for a good performing, daily driver L03, when used in conjunction with chip tuning. The LT1, Vortec 305/350 Truck, and the RamJet/HT383 cam. All will pull hard from just off-idle to about 5,500 rpm.
The stock peanut cammed, 187 swirl port headed 305 in my 1980 chevy truck converted to TBI with headers(1 7/8" primaries), dual 3" exhaust, dual snorkel from a L82 Vette ducted to the core support (I6 location on driverside and V8 location on passenger side), and tuning made 181 RWHP @ 4,200 and 268 ft/lbs @ 2,400 on a Mustang chassis dyno. After putting in a Vortec 350 roller cam out of my dads old 350 Vortec Van engine that was going to junk pile(broken rod,holed block) using the same setup, with some tuning it was able to pull 246 RWHP @ 4,800 and 318 ft/lbs @ 3,600. That was with a 7 bladed clutch fan and all accessories through a 3 spd standard in 3rd gear.
Last edited by Fast355; 04-23-2006 at 12:13 PM.
#9
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Originally Posted by Fast355
Its NOT worth switching to TPI on a stock TBI long-block. You will have about the same power with a mass-air TPI setup. With a Speed Density setup, you are likely to lose power! I will maintain that swapping to TPI is about worthless from a performance stand point. Stock TPI engines make more power because of the cam, exhaust, and ECM tune. They have better performance because they have more power due to the cam/exhaust, have better gearing, bigger tires, and usually a posi.
Also, your front accessories are the exact same for TBI and TPI. They'll fit just fine.
#10
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 10,119
Received 428 Likes
on
368 Posts
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Originally Posted by Kevin91Z
Sorry in advance for being a jerk, but you're clueless. The TBI is speed density, so how can you lose power using speed density TPI? My dad converted his old 1992 Camaro RS 5-speed from TBI to TPI, using the same TBI cam and heads and exhaust manifolds. He gained 18 horsepower and 70 torque at the rear wheels. That's 158 HP to 176 HP and 220 TQ to 290 TQ. Then he swapped in an L98 cam and gained another 11 HP to 187, but the torque was the same. He says the car was MUCH more fun to drive with all the new torque, and he gained 2 miles per gallon. If you dont believe me, do a search for his name "Dyno Don" and you'll find it.
Also, your front accessories are the exact same for TBI and TPI. They'll fit just fine.
Also, your front accessories are the exact same for TBI and TPI. They'll fit just fine.
My cam/headers/dual snorkel/tuning out performed you dads TPI swap by a longshot. It is also getting about 20 mpg in a long bed regular cab 1980 chevy truck, 3.08 gears, 3 spd standard, and P255/70/R15 tires.
I have a timeslip in front of me from the Vortec cammed L03. Keep in mind the truck weighs 4,300 lbs, has a 3.08 open rear, a 3spd standard (2.66:1 first gear ratio) on the column, and only P255/70/R15s. The gear ratio was so tall that I either bogged or spun on launch. I launched at 2,000 rpm, slipping the clutch, and shifted 1-2 at 5,800 or about 63 mph (the shift takes atleast 1 sec due to worn, sloppy bushings and the nature of a column shift) and ran through the traps at 4,800 rpm in 2nd gear. Not at all the potential it had.
0060' = 03.40s @ 28.93 MPH
0330' = 06.76s @ 61.41 MPH
0660' = 10.19s @ 72.87 MPH
1320' = 15.61s @ 92.76 MPH
The cammed engine was dyno tested in 2nd gear and the stock in 3rd due to tire speed ratings. The stock cammed L03 was tested on a 93* day and later proved to have a broken valvespring during the cam swap (Whether it was broken during the dyno runs is unknown, but probable because the cam swap was done 1 week later). The cammed engine was dyno tested 4 weeks later in much cooler 78* weather. Both numbers are uncorrected.
Last edited by Fast355; 04-23-2006 at 01:04 PM.
#12
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 10,119
Received 428 Likes
on
368 Posts
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Originally Posted by vipershark11
wow i dont know who to believe im guessing its either gonna be a hit or miss on power.
Here is a quote from the owners website.
I had the car dyno'd at TTPerformance a few weeks ago, and the little 305 put down a solid 223 horsepower and 277 ft/lbs. of torque to the rear wheels
Heart Transplant
Heart Transplant - Page 3
Last edited by Fast355; 04-23-2006 at 01:49 PM.
#13
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 1,459
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 92 trans am clone
Engine: LO3
Transmission: 700r4
the thing is i have this over on the tpi thread too and those guys say i will see very little gains but if i change the cam i will be seeing better gains and itll all work fine with the MAF
#14
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 10,119
Received 428 Likes
on
368 Posts
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Originally Posted by vipershark11
the thing is i have this over on the tpi thread too and those guys say i will see very little gains but if i change the cam i will be seeing better gains and itll all work fine with the MAF
I already told you the speed density/mass air flow results.
Last edited by Fast355; 04-23-2006 at 01:52 PM.
#15
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 1,459
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 92 trans am clone
Engine: LO3
Transmission: 700r4
no im saying if i get the tpi set up and add the L98 cam with the swap ive been told it would need no computer work due to the MAF and would be awesome
#16
Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Ewing, NJ
Posts: 228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1976 Camaro LT
Engine: 350
Transmission: TH350
TBI and TPI both have strong performance potential. that being said i woudl suggest sticking to the type of injection the car came with.
for all the time and effort of swapping to TPI you will only see gains similar to doing free mods on your existing TBI.
another factor to keep in mind is future performance. TPI parts cost a fortune compaired to TBI. TBI can use traditional carb intakes that can be found for 50-75 bucks with a home made or inexpensive adaptor plate, that is about half the cost of a good set of used runners for a TPI set up.
for the cost of parts and the down time involved to get a minimal gain, i woudl say it isn't really worth it.
for all the time and effort of swapping to TPI you will only see gains similar to doing free mods on your existing TBI.
another factor to keep in mind is future performance. TPI parts cost a fortune compaired to TBI. TBI can use traditional carb intakes that can be found for 50-75 bucks with a home made or inexpensive adaptor plate, that is about half the cost of a good set of used runners for a TPI set up.
for the cost of parts and the down time involved to get a minimal gain, i woudl say it isn't really worth it.
#17
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 1,459
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 92 trans am clone
Engine: LO3
Transmission: 700r4
well all together i figure the cost should be 300 for the entire swap with parts and all. and i dont think itll take too long seeing that i do have experience even though wiring and fuel pump suck ***
#18
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 10,119
Received 428 Likes
on
368 Posts
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Originally Posted by vipershark11
no im saying if i get the tpi set up and add the L98 cam with the swap ive been told it would need no computer work due to the MAF and would be awesome
----------
Originally Posted by vipershark11
well all together i figure the cost should be 300 for the entire swap with parts and all. and i dont think itll take too long seeing that i do have experience even though wiring and fuel pump suck ***
Last edited by Fast355; 04-23-2006 at 02:08 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
#19
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
My gosh, you're amazing. By any chance are you related to Black Echo?
My data and results are bogus because its just one example, but your one example is legit?
My dad's car was a 5-speed, so 290 lb/ft times 115% is 333 lb/ft. Both dyno runs were made in 4th gear. The TBI setup had 3.08 gears and the TPI had 3.27 gears. Stock was rated at 300 ft/lb, but I guess in your world its impossible for GM to overrate the torque on TPI's like they did with the LS1's? Or perhaps my dad and I are just that good we can squeak more power and torque out of our engines with tuning and chip burning than that guy with the Monte Carlo? By the way, my dad's car got 31 MPG on the highway with TPI, and 29 with TBI.
If you want to know who to believe, just do a search on the TPI board and count the numerous TPI engines running 13's, 12's, and faster, even 305's. Then come back here and you dont have to take off your socks to count how many TBI cars are running even 13's, 350's included.
We've converted several TBI cars over to TPI at his shop, and not one of those owners was dissatisfied with the results. Yes it costs money to convert, but speed costs, how fast can you afford? Repin your existing TBI harness, put in the new computer and chip, install the TPI intake and injectors, and go out and drive hard, leaving the TBI guys in your dust.
My data and results are bogus because its just one example, but your one example is legit?
My dad's car was a 5-speed, so 290 lb/ft times 115% is 333 lb/ft. Both dyno runs were made in 4th gear. The TBI setup had 3.08 gears and the TPI had 3.27 gears. Stock was rated at 300 ft/lb, but I guess in your world its impossible for GM to overrate the torque on TPI's like they did with the LS1's? Or perhaps my dad and I are just that good we can squeak more power and torque out of our engines with tuning and chip burning than that guy with the Monte Carlo? By the way, my dad's car got 31 MPG on the highway with TPI, and 29 with TBI.
If you want to know who to believe, just do a search on the TPI board and count the numerous TPI engines running 13's, 12's, and faster, even 305's. Then come back here and you dont have to take off your socks to count how many TBI cars are running even 13's, 350's included.
We've converted several TBI cars over to TPI at his shop, and not one of those owners was dissatisfied with the results. Yes it costs money to convert, but speed costs, how fast can you afford? Repin your existing TBI harness, put in the new computer and chip, install the TPI intake and injectors, and go out and drive hard, leaving the TBI guys in your dust.
#20
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 10,119
Received 428 Likes
on
368 Posts
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Originally Posted by Kevin91Z
My gosh, you're amazing. By any chance are you related to Black Echo?
My data and results are bogus because its just one example, but your one example is legit?
My dad's car was a 5-speed, so 290 lb/ft times 115% is 333 lb/ft. Both dyno runs were made in 4th gear. The TBI setup had 3.08 gears and the TPI had 3.27 gears. Stock was rated at 300 ft/lb, but I guess in your world its impossible for GM to overrate the torque on TPI's like they did with the LS1's? Or perhaps my dad and I are just that good we can squeak more power and torque out of our engines with tuning and chip burning than that guy with the Monte Carlo? By the way, my dad's car got 31 MPG on the highway with TPI, and 29 with TBI.
If you want to know who to believe, just do a search on the TPI board and count the numerous TPI engines running 13's, 12's, and faster, even 305's. Then come back here and you dont have to take off your socks to count how many TBI cars are running even 13's, 350's included.
We've converted several TBI cars over to TPI at his shop, and not one of those owners was dissatisfied with the results. Yes it costs money to convert, but speed costs, how fast can you afford? Repin your existing TBI harness, put in the new computer and chip, install the TPI intake and injectors, and go out and drive hard, leaving the TBI guys in your dust.
My data and results are bogus because its just one example, but your one example is legit?
My dad's car was a 5-speed, so 290 lb/ft times 115% is 333 lb/ft. Both dyno runs were made in 4th gear. The TBI setup had 3.08 gears and the TPI had 3.27 gears. Stock was rated at 300 ft/lb, but I guess in your world its impossible for GM to overrate the torque on TPI's like they did with the LS1's? Or perhaps my dad and I are just that good we can squeak more power and torque out of our engines with tuning and chip burning than that guy with the Monte Carlo? By the way, my dad's car got 31 MPG on the highway with TPI, and 29 with TBI.
If you want to know who to believe, just do a search on the TPI board and count the numerous TPI engines running 13's, 12's, and faster, even 305's. Then come back here and you dont have to take off your socks to count how many TBI cars are running even 13's, 350's included.
We've converted several TBI cars over to TPI at his shop, and not one of those owners was dissatisfied with the results. Yes it costs money to convert, but speed costs, how fast can you afford? Repin your existing TBI harness, put in the new computer and chip, install the TPI intake and injectors, and go out and drive hard, leaving the TBI guys in your dust.
That puts your dads otherwise stock L03 to 220 FWHP/341 ft/lbs. That is roughly 50HP and 85 ft/lbs over a stock 305 TBI at the crank from only an intake. YEAH RIGHT!!!
What makes you think mine is based off of one example? It is not! I have 4 TBI engines in my fleet alone! One has had about 5 different engine combos in it. I have built more TBI combos than I care to even mention. One of my past jobs was an installer at a speed shop. We regularly dyno'd NA TBI cars that would spank TPI cars.
The stock rating of 300 ft/lbs was achieved with the L98 cam, Dual cats, bigger exhaust manifolds, better exhaust than the factory LO3 exhaust on your dads car. It makes a huge difference.
The reason that people never run well with TBI is the tuning. It is very important. I know of many 350 TBI fullsize trucks in the mid 14s. I happen to know of atleast 5 454 SS NA TBI trucks that are running in the 13s!
With the EBL now available look for a group of cars to break into the 12s with a lowly TBI setup.
I would love to slap some aluminum L98s on my 312, keep the current cam, drop it in a 5 spd F-Body with some good gears and spank your TPI world.
Oh, now the truth comes out. The gears were different, that will affect rear wheel torque. My 305 with 3.73s made more RWTQ in 3rd than the 350 it replaced did with 3.08s in 3rd from off-idle all the way up! The gear change makes a tremendous difference.
I have had alot of builds over the past few years. For simplicity I am naming only TBI combos.
A.)355 w/ Mellings MTC1 cam, Ported 601 heads, Cast Iron manifolds, Performer RPM intake, Ultimate TBI mods
B.)355 w/ LT1 roller cam, Ported 601 Heads, Headers, Performer RPM intake, Ultimate TBI mods
C.)355 w/ LT1 roller cam, Ported 193 Heads, Headers, Stock intake, Ultimate TBI mods, Chip Work(279 RWHP)
D.)312 w/Stock 350 TBI cam, Ported 081s, Headers, Stock intake, Ultimate TBI mods, Chip work
E.)312 w/L82 350 cam, Ported 081s, Headers, Stock intake, Ultimate TBI mods, Chip work
F.)312 w/ Crane Roller, Ported 081s, Headers, Projection intake, 454 TBI, Chip work (301 RWHP through cut-outs)
G.)312 w/ Crane Roller(1.6:1 rockers), Ported 081s, Cast Manifolds, Edelbrock intake, Ultimate TBI mods, chip work (278 RWHP)
H.)312 w/ Crane Roller, Stock 187s, Cast Manifolds, Edelbrock intake, Ultimate TBI mods, chip work (240 RWHP)
I.)Stock Medium Duty 350 (stock swirl ports, stock RamJet/HT383 cam), Edelbrock intake, Open TBI spacer, 454 TBI, Cast Iron manifolds, Chip Work
J.)Stock Medium Duty 350 (stock swirl ports, stock RamJet/HT 383 cam), Edelbrock Intake,Open TBI spacer, 454 TBI, JBA shorty headers, Chip work
Others
2.8 TBI GMC Jimmy (183/168)
3.4 TBI GMC Jimmy (197/210)
4.3 TBI Chevy Astro (216/250)
305 TBI Truck (181/268 Stock)
305 TBI Truck (246/318 Vortec cam)
My current 350 is running this in a 5,300 lbs van. It is a stock GM crate engine with headers, intake, TBI spacer, 454 TBI, bigger injectors, and custom tuning.
0060' = 02.15 @ 33.93
0330' = 06.67 @ 58.76
0660' = 10.25 @ 71.23
1320' = 16.18 @ 87.95
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...lo3-305-a.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...ects-done.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...t-tbi-car.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...ted-193-s.html
Last edited by Fast355; 04-23-2006 at 08:18 PM.
#21
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Whoa! Somebody slept through math class. 290/.85=341 ft/lbs. I used 15% for peak TQ and 20% for peak HP
That puts your dads otherwise stock L03 to 220 FWHP/341 ft/lbs. That is roughly 50HP and 85 ft/lbs over a stock 305 TBI at the crank from only an intake. YEAH RIGHT!!!
That puts your dads otherwise stock L03 to 220 FWHP/341 ft/lbs. That is roughly 50HP and 85 ft/lbs over a stock 305 TBI at the crank from only an intake. YEAH RIGHT!!!
If you cant believe the TPI intake is that much superior to the TBI setup, its not my problem. We did not do any trickery on the dyno, other than it being two different Dynojets on two different days. The only thing changed between the two dynos was the TBI to TPI swap, and the rear end swap.
What makes you think mine is based off of one example? It is not! I have 4 TBI engines in my fleet alone! One has had about 5 different engine combos in it. I have built more TBI combos than I care to even mention. One of my past jobs was an installer at a speed shop. We regularly dyno'd NA TBI cars that would spank TPI cars.
Sure, modified TBI cars will beat stock TPI cars. I've never seen it, but that doesnt mean it hasnt happened in your world.
The stock rating of 300 ft/lbs was achieved with the L98 cam, Dual cats, bigger exhaust manifolds, better exhaust than the factory LO3 exhaust on your dads car. It makes a huge difference.
I would love to slap some aluminum L98s on my 312, keep the current cam, drop it in a 5 spd F-Body with some good gears and spank your TPI world.
Oh, now the truth comes out. The gears were different, that will affect rear wheel torque. My 305 with 3.73s made more RWTQ in 3rd than the 350 it replaced did with 3.08s in 3rd from off-idle all the way up! The gear change makes a tremendous difference.
My current 350 is running this in a 5,300 lbs van. It is a stock GM crate engine with headers, intake, TBI spacer, 454 TBI, bigger injectors, and custom tuning.
0060' = 02.15 @ 33.93
0330' = 06.67 @ 58.76
0660' = 10.25 @ 71.23
1320' = 16.18 @ 87.95
0060' = 02.15 @ 33.93
0330' = 06.67 @ 58.76
0660' = 10.25 @ 71.23
1320' = 16.18 @ 87.95
Lastly, the final death nail in TBI's coffin is what its known for, having two injectors above the throttle body. That limits its ability to make power. From
FBody.com
at the bottom, you can compute horsepower from injector size. To make 350 horsepower with two injectors, you them to be 110 lbs/hr. You cant even get them that flow that high. But with TPI or any other multi-port fuel injection, you only need 28 lbs injectors, easily found in the aftermarket.
#22
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 10,119
Received 428 Likes
on
368 Posts
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Originally Posted by Kevin91Z
Who told you how to compute flywheel power from rear wheel numbers? If you do x*1.15 you get one number, and if you do x/.85 you get a different number. You used one, I used the other. Also, I've never heard of anyone using 15% for one and 20% for the other. I've always heard its 15% for manual cars and 20% for automatics.
If you cant believe the TPI intake is that much superior to the TBI setup, its not my problem. We did not do any trickery on the dyno, other than it being two different Dynojets on two different days. The only thing changed between the two dynos was the TBI to TPI swap, and the rear end swap..
If you cant believe the TPI intake is that much superior to the TBI setup, its not my problem. We did not do any trickery on the dyno, other than it being two different Dynojets on two different days. The only thing changed between the two dynos was the TBI to TPI swap, and the rear end swap..
Originally Posted by Kevin91Z
You only mentioned one example in your posts, your so-called killer TBI setup in your van, so that's what I'm calling out.
Sure, modified TBI cars will beat stock TPI cars. I've never seen it, but that doesnt mean it hasnt happened in your world...
Sure, modified TBI cars will beat stock TPI cars. I've never seen it, but that doesnt mean it hasnt happened in your world...
c1500
Then look at this page, there are some seriously fast NA TBI trucks on here.
Kevin Tolliver
Outkast Kustoms
Ben Luginbuhl
Brett Holm
Matt Spinelli
Chris Shaw
Brandon Weber
Chris Lange
(I know it is the same truck!)
Mike Twist
Chris Regan
Look for yourself, there are many more.
http://dragtruck.com/ENTRIES/glance_make.html
Originally Posted by Kevin91Z
Except, my dad's car had the factory L98 exhaust put on it. That swap, when it was still TBI, went from 150 HP to 158 HP, and 200 TQ to 220 TQ.
Originally Posted by Kevin91Z
I have aluminum L98's on my engine now, with an LT4 cam. Call me when you get your heads slapped on, and get close to 13's, I'll drive out there and let you "spank" me. Even better, lets call Rich Christensen from "Pinks." I'd love to see the look on your face when you realize you have to beg for lengths to keep up. .
Originally Posted by Kevin91Z
Must be your tuning. *EVERY* example I have seen shows 3.73 and 4.10 gears make slightly less power to the wheels than 3.08 and 3.23 gears. But of course, you're dealing with your world and I am dealing with mine.
Originally Posted by Kevin91Z
Take away 2000 lbs and 2 seconds ( 1/10th = 100 lbs ) and you're running about the same as a similar modded TPI. Congrats on achieving average, you must be so proud. Where's the TBI advantage?.
Originally Posted by Kevin91Z
Lastly, the final death nail in TBI's coffin is what its known for, having two injectors above the throttle body. That limits its ability to make power. From
FBody.com
at the bottom, you can compute horsepower from injector size. To make 350 horsepower with two injectors, you them to be 110 lbs/hr. You cant even get them that flow that high. But with TPI or any other multi-port fuel injection, you only need 28 lbs injectors, easily found in the aftermarket.
FBody.com
at the bottom, you can compute horsepower from injector size. To make 350 horsepower with two injectors, you them to be 110 lbs/hr. You cant even get them that flow that high. But with TPI or any other multi-port fuel injection, you only need 28 lbs injectors, easily found in the aftermarket.
I made 301 RWHP using 61 lb/hr injectors at 32 psi. That is right at 100 lbs/hr. Running at 85% duty cycle and a BSFC of .5 that is good for 170 HP each or 340 FWHP. A good estimate of my BSFC is around .45 or so, and I know for a FACT my duty cycle was at 93%. That means that I had fuel for about 410 FWHP. I do know that my A/F ratio on a wideband was 12.6:1 all the way from off-idle to 6,500 rpm on the 301 RWHP pull.
125 lb/hr injectors were made for TBI applications, just not in the US. Mexico used a 292 I6 that made around 200 HP and used a SINGLE barrel TBI unit with a single 125 lb/hr injector.
Last edited by Fast355; 04-25-2006 at 11:52 AM.
#23
Member
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: TN
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 92 rs z28 clone
Engine: forged 350
Transmission: 700r4 fully built
Axle/Gears: moser axles eaton posi 3.73 gears
I have to step in and say I have had both and tpi is a good set up but it to has limits and when it comes to upgrading intakes and what not tpi sucks look at the price of the super ram set up and i hope you dont have vortec heads to me tbi is a better set its simple and cheap and can beat any tpi car with the same $ in it and as far as needing 110 lbs injectors to make 350hp thats bs injectors are rated at a sertin psi they flow more at a higher psi.
#24
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 10,119
Received 428 Likes
on
368 Posts
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Originally Posted by 92rsvortec350
As far as needing 110 lbs injectors to make 350hp thats bs injectors are rated at a sertin psi they flow more at a higher psi.
#25
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Originally Posted by Kevin91Z
If you cant believe the TPI intake is that much superior to the TBI setup, its not my problem. We did not do any trickery on the dyno, other than it being two different Dynojets on two different days. The only thing changed between the two dynos was the TBI to TPI swap, and the rear end swap.
RBob.
#26
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: beecher
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 91 RS
Engine: 305
Transmission: T-5
holy crap fast, for only being a member for a little over a year you got an awfully alot of posts. you know what that tells me. You got to put your two cents in for everything even if have no clue what you're saying. yes it is not worth coverting a 305 tbi to tpi because just the fact that if you spend a couple jof bucks more you could build a carbed 350. but since he said he can get all the parts for $300 and he and his buddies can put it in for him then I dont see why he already hasn't done it. and you dont need dyno slips and drag times to tell if the speed gained it worth the money. You should just know by a simple drive
#27
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 10,119
Received 428 Likes
on
368 Posts
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Originally Posted by wuz_up92085
holy crap fast, for only being a member for a little over a year you got an awfully alot of posts. you know what that tells me. You got to put your two cents in for everything even if have no clue what you're saying.
My two cents maybe valuable to someone though.
ALOT of my post are actual projects that I am working on.
Finally, I have been a member long before Jan 05! I had a different name, but lost it after an internet provider change when I forgot my password.
Finally I am one of the few that are continually pushing the limits of the TBI system and have yet to find them. The results of these experiments are posted by myself and others (Dewey316, etc). Open your eyes and look at what I have been working with for the last year.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...uning-ebl.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...-ultimate.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...put-355-a.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...uning-tbi.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...etter-gas.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...tock-fuel.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...tock-fuel.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...s-set-5-a.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...chips-com.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...urt-305-a.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...ld-vaccum.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...-question.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...ike-these.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ines-long.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...heads-why.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...ects-done.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...-l03-dyno.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...ted-193-s.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...injectors.html
#28
Supreme Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Red Lion, PA
Posts: 1,446
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Car: 91 Camaro RS, 99 Camaro Z28
Engine: L03, LS1
Transmission: 700R4, T56
Axle/Gears: bunch of 10 bolts how scary is that
They both suck get a Ls1 lol....sorry I had to say it but seriously TPI and TBI have very simular limitation in stock form, but TBI is much cheaper to upgrade.
#29
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 10,119
Received 428 Likes
on
368 Posts
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Originally Posted by crrllmich
They both suck get a Ls1 lol....sorry I had to say it but seriously TPI and TBI have very simular limitation in stock form, but TBI is much cheaper to upgrade.
The 454 is 26.54" from manifold to manifold and the LSx is like 28 from coil pack to coil pack.
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Moreno Valley, CA
Posts: 748
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1990 Camaro RS
Engine: 305 TBI (L03)
Transmission: 700R4 (MD8)
Axle/Gears: 2.73 Open (GU2)
Originally Posted by wuz_up92085
holy crap fast, for only being a member for a little over a year you got an awfully alot of posts. you know what that tells me. You got to put your two cents in for everything even if have no clue what you're saying. yes it is not worth coverting a 305 tbi to tpi because just the fact that if you spend a couple jof bucks more you could build a carbed 350. but since he said he can get all the parts for $300 and he and his buddies can put it in for him then I dont see why he already hasn't done it. and you dont need dyno slips and drag times to tell if the speed gained it worth the money. You should just know by a simple drive
The only thing here is that Kevin is mostly proficient in TPI, and Fast is proficient in TBI, thus proving why we have 2 separate boards, and proving that TPI and TBI owners will never get along.
TPI and TBI cars in the same household have been known to tear families apart. It can also kill babies, and make the world stop spinning.
It's a dangerous thing I tell ya'.
#31
Supreme Member
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Orange, CA
Posts: 5,677
Likes: 0
Received 112 Likes
on
67 Posts
Car: '90 Trans Am-12.45@110.71
Engine: 355 w/AFR 195's Elem. 400/430 HP/TQ
Transmission: Tremec T-56
Axle/Gears: 12 Bolt 3.73
Originally Posted by MikeDirntRulez
shut the hell up. Fast is probably one of the most knowledgable people about TBI that you can ever grasp. He puts his 2 cents in because he knows what the hell he is talking about.
.
.
#33
Supreme Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Fallbrook, CA
Posts: 1,281
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I HAVE TBI, I HAVE seen Don's, Kevin's and NUMEROUS cars they have built, granted they were built, all of them were TPI and a the vast majority of them run faster than 13.XX, one car that Don built is running 12.41 @ 120 with TPI, call it a hunch, but that would be EXTREMELY difficult to run. Even JPrevost would admit that 12 second TBI is one of those things thats going to take a LOT of effort. Unless youre going to run a 454 TBI in a pinto... I was gung ho TBI too... Until i saw their cars... There is a reason GM upgraded to TPI on the PERFORMANCE cars... More effecient = More power... Asians have known this forever, thats why they have 4cyl honda's running 12's NA too...
#34
Supreme Member
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Orange, CA
Posts: 5,677
Likes: 0
Received 112 Likes
on
67 Posts
Car: '90 Trans Am-12.45@110.71
Engine: 355 w/AFR 195's Elem. 400/430 HP/TQ
Transmission: Tremec T-56
Axle/Gears: 12 Bolt 3.73
Originally Posted by Fast355
Dad came to his defense.
I tried all that TBI crap and then went to something worth working on (still making gains). I know TPI isn't the greatest, but then I don't tout it as being so. But we're in cali right?
#35
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Originally Posted by SchwarzCamaroRS
Even JPrevost would admit that 12 second TBI is one of those things thats going to take a LOT of effort.
RBob.
#36
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 10,119
Received 428 Likes
on
368 Posts
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Originally Posted by RBob
I doubt Jon would say that. Jon was running low 13's with a slipping trans that also wouldn't shift unless the pedal was lifted. Maybe you should let Jon speak for himself.
RBob.
RBob.
BTW, Ben73 is running in the mid 12s with his mild 383 (Crossfire which has a worse intake than a TBI but it is still TBI) and Dominic Sorresso is in the low 13s with a mild 350, 3.07 gears, and I believe stock sized tires..
Originally Posted by Dyno Don
I tried all that TBI crap and then went to something worth working on (still making gains). I know TPI isn't the greatest, but then I don't tout it as being so. But we're in cali right?
#37
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Originally Posted by RBob
I think this statement shows the error of one's way, "other than it being two different Dynojets on two different days."
RBob.
RBob.
RBob.
#38
Supreme Member
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Orange, CA
Posts: 5,677
Likes: 0
Received 112 Likes
on
67 Posts
Car: '90 Trans Am-12.45@110.71
Engine: 355 w/AFR 195's Elem. 400/430 HP/TQ
Transmission: Tremec T-56
Axle/Gears: 12 Bolt 3.73
Originally Posted by RBob
No response? Hmmm, interesting. . .
RBob.
RBob.
#39
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Originally Posted by Dyno Don
No response needed for nitpicking
And, if I may ask, why the name 'Dyno Don?' The real Dyno Don is a legend in his own right. May he RIP.
RBob.
#40
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 10,119
Received 428 Likes
on
368 Posts
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Originally Posted by RBob
Only if you think that using two different dynos on two different days to compare the difference in induction systems to be valid. My post isn't nitpicking, I was pointing out a huge error in the testing methodology.
RBob.
RBob.
ALL of my combos were tested on the same Mustang dyno, at the same shop, with the same factors entered (the ones listed for a G-series, they actually have them on the list). They have a weather station that is attached to the dyno for correction factors as well. Where possible I have always given corrected numbers.
Going to two different dynos is like going to two different tracks. One may be surfaced different, point up hill, pointed down hill, etc.
It is a know fact that Dynojets and Mustangs give different numbers, with the Mustang's numbers typically more believable. Dynojet dynos typically overate the car compared to track times, etc. Such as stock LS1 automatics making 320ish HP. They made that at the crank. On a mustang dyno 260-280 would be what you get on the same car.
I am an emissions inspector as part of my job. The emissions dyno is calibrated every 72 hours to keep it accurate.
#41
Supreme Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Fallbrook, CA
Posts: 1,281
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by RBob
I doubt Jon would say that. Jon was running low 13's with a slipping trans that also wouldn't shift unless the pedal was lifted. Maybe you should let Jon speak for himself.
RBob.
RBob.
but you and jon would both agree that it took him even a lot of work to get to that point....
#42
Supreme Member
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Orange, CA
Posts: 5,677
Likes: 0
Received 112 Likes
on
67 Posts
Car: '90 Trans Am-12.45@110.71
Engine: 355 w/AFR 195's Elem. 400/430 HP/TQ
Transmission: Tremec T-56
Axle/Gears: 12 Bolt 3.73
Originally Posted by RBob
Only if you think that using two different dynos on two different days to compare the difference in induction systems to be valid. My post isn't nitpicking, I was pointing out a huge error in the testing methodology.
And, if I may ask, why the name 'Dyno Don?' The real Dyno Don is a legend in his own right. May he RIP.
RBob.
And, if I may ask, why the name 'Dyno Don?' The real Dyno Don is a legend in his own right. May he RIP.
RBob.
Do you think I haven't done many test projects on the same two dynos?
Yes...without the facts you are nitpicking.
As for Don Nickelson ....we were very good friends, he lived right here in Orange, California and we raced together in Pro Stock in the '70's.
He was a great legend ...may he RIP for sure.
Look at the picture....behind my car is his Maverick
#43
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 10,119
Received 428 Likes
on
368 Posts
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Originally Posted by SchwarzCamaroRS
but you and jon would both agree that it took him even a lot of work to get to that point....
#44
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 0
Received 225 Likes
on
211 Posts
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Originally Posted by Dyno Don
What?
Do you think I haven't done many test projects on the same two dynos?
Yes...without the facts you are nitpicking.
Do you think I haven't done many test projects on the same two dynos?
Yes...without the facts you are nitpicking.
If you read Kevin91Z's post you too will have the same facts.
RBob.
#45
Supreme Member
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Orange, CA
Posts: 5,677
Likes: 0
Received 112 Likes
on
67 Posts
Car: '90 Trans Am-12.45@110.71
Engine: 355 w/AFR 195's Elem. 400/430 HP/TQ
Transmission: Tremec T-56
Axle/Gears: 12 Bolt 3.73
RBob:
In most cases I might agree with you, but I am the one that did those tests and like I said I have used those same two dynos numerous times and know the characteristics of each.
These weren't just random tests and for someone to try and discredit them for what ever reason is just wrong.
Besides they were done on MY car, (last time I checked my butt dyno still worked) they were very conclusive.
In most cases I might agree with you, but I am the one that did those tests and like I said I have used those same two dynos numerous times and know the characteristics of each.
These weren't just random tests and for someone to try and discredit them for what ever reason is just wrong.
Besides they were done on MY car, (last time I checked my butt dyno still worked) they were very conclusive.
#46
Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Ewing, NJ
Posts: 228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1976 Camaro LT
Engine: 350
Transmission: TH350
this whole conversation has fallen apart as most of the TPI vs TBI arguments do.
the plain and simple truth is that both systems are perfectly capable of making power. 13's, 12's, even 11's are jsut as realistic with TBI as they are with TPI because ET's are a greater example of chassis prep than engine power. yes, it does require a certain amount of power to generate teh mph needed to run a specific ET, but both systems have already been proven capable of doing that already which renders it a non-issue.
the difference boils down to the costs invovled, mainly when it comes to intakes and injectors, TPI parts are just expensive any way you cut it. that is why i say stick with the induction system your car came with.
btw, jprevost's car run plenty of mph to get well into the 12's if he ever put tires and suspension under it so that it woudl hook.
the plain and simple truth is that both systems are perfectly capable of making power. 13's, 12's, even 11's are jsut as realistic with TBI as they are with TPI because ET's are a greater example of chassis prep than engine power. yes, it does require a certain amount of power to generate teh mph needed to run a specific ET, but both systems have already been proven capable of doing that already which renders it a non-issue.
the difference boils down to the costs invovled, mainly when it comes to intakes and injectors, TPI parts are just expensive any way you cut it. that is why i say stick with the induction system your car came with.
btw, jprevost's car run plenty of mph to get well into the 12's if he ever put tires and suspension under it so that it woudl hook.
#47
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hurst, Texas
Posts: 10,119
Received 428 Likes
on
368 Posts
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Originally Posted by Dyno Don
RBob:
In most cases I might agree with you, but I am the one that did those tests and like I said I have used those same two dynos numerous times and know the characteristics of each.
These weren't just random tests and for someone to try and discredit them for what ever reason is just wrong.
Besides they were done on MY car, (last time I checked my butt dyno still worked) they were very conclusive.
In most cases I might agree with you, but I am the one that did those tests and like I said I have used those same two dynos numerous times and know the characteristics of each.
These weren't just random tests and for someone to try and discredit them for what ever reason is just wrong.
Besides they were done on MY car, (last time I checked my butt dyno still worked) they were very conclusive.
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Moreno Valley, CA
Posts: 748
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1990 Camaro RS
Engine: 305 TBI (L03)
Transmission: 700R4 (MD8)
Axle/Gears: 2.73 Open (GU2)
Originally Posted by Dyno Don
(cough....cough)
Dur......
Last edited by MikeDirntRulez; 04-29-2006 at 01:03 AM.
#49
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Why is it that Fast355 knows what he's talking about because he supports TBI, but my dad and I do not because we support TPI and badmouth TBI for its weaknesses? Dur... indeed!
By the way, the two different dynos were both Dynojets and both were corrected to standard.
What MPFI was that? If you say the Edelbrock one or the Holley one that uses your TBI throttle body I'm going to laugh and call your test bogus as much as you call mine bogus.
By the way, the two different dynos were both Dynojets and both were corrected to standard.
Originally Posted by Fast355
When I swapped to MPFI on my TBI GMC there was little to no difference in the way the truck ran. The MPFI was needed to add a turbo due to lack of 2-bar MAP sensor support 3 yrs ago when I did it.
#50
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Moreno Valley, CA
Posts: 748
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Car: 1990 Camaro RS
Engine: 305 TBI (L03)
Transmission: 700R4 (MD8)
Axle/Gears: 2.73 Open (GU2)
Originally Posted by Kevin91Z
Why is it that Fast355 knows what he's talking about because he supports TBI, but my dad and I do not because we support TPI and badmouth TBI for its weaknesses? Dur... indeed!
All I said was Fast knows what he is talking about...... PERIOD. I never said your dad had any clue what he was talking about because i've never seen him speak on the subject before.... not once. All I was commenting on was that Fast knows what he is talking about, and that is all... read above if you don't believe me.
Reading Comprehension > You.