vipershark11

iTrader: (6)

ok if i went from my 305 tbi to a tuned port intake and new fuel pump and computer off an 88 350tpi setup would i be seeing any gains if so how much?

vipershark11

iTrader: (6)

also to me it looks like the tpi set up wouldnt fit with my a/c and altenator as they are placed. please help me i need to know soon. can anyone else notice if i will have any other problems or such maybe it would work i dunno

91RedFirebird

umm maybie a small amount of torque not really worth the money in my opinion.

MikeDirntRulez

You would need more than that...

If you sold your TBI car you could take that money and add $500 and buy a TPI car for cheaper than you would get all the TPI parts for.

vipershark11

iTrader: (6)

the set up is only costing me 250 no installation or anything cause i know mechanics very well. and im not selling my car after all ive done to the body interior etc etc. i just want the tpi maybe get a bit of a gain thats it i just want to be happy plus i want it to look clean under the hood not with the huge spaceship looking thing

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Its NOT worth switching to TPI on a stock TBI long-block. You will have about the same power with a mass-air TPI setup. With a Speed Density setup, you are likely to lose power! I will maintain that swapping to TPI is about worthless from a performance stand point. Stock TPI engines make more power because of the cam, exhaust, and ECM tune. They have better performance because they have more power due to the cam/exhaust, have better gearing, bigger tires, and usually a posi.

vipershark11

iTrader: (6)

ok if i add a L98 cam wouldnt the computer be tuned so the car would run properly with the cam added and L98 cam works with stock heads correct? and im getting the MAF setup off an 88 o and i would have been able to throw in the caprice 350 tbi motor underneath but my cousin robbed me of it so now i gotta play catch up with his swap

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

You do realize that you will end up spending somewhere between $800-$1000 to get your car running with TPI! All the little odds and ends add up! I spent over $700 swapping to TBI including the donor truck ($400). You will need alot of things, not including the TPI. Brackets, accessories, throttle cable, TV cable, wiring, hoses, intake ducting, ECM, possibly different sensors, etc.

When you get done, you will be stuck with an anemic LTR TPI setup that falls on its face above 4,500 rpm. You WILL have a little more torque in the 2,500-3,000 rpm band, but that is it. The TBI will make more TQ from idle-2,500 rpm and make more HP above 4,500 than the LTR TPI.

The TPI is a poor choice for the stock TBI gears and torque converter. Notice how the TPI parts differ. Installing the L98 cam is about the worst thing you can do with your current setup. Then you have to realize that the TBI heads require a totally different timing advance curve than the TPI heads do.

I would run from the swap and stay TBI.

Use about 1/3 the cash and get into chip burning.

For power I would do a full exhaust from the exhaust ports back, open element or dual snorkel air cleaner, ultimate TBI mods, adjustable fuel pressure regulator, get into chip burning, and then look into a cam of some form. I know of 3 cams that stick out for a good performing, daily driver L03, when used in conjunction with chip tuning. The LT1, Vortec 305/350 Truck, and the RamJet/HT383 cam. All will pull hard from just off-idle to about 5,500 rpm.

The stock peanut cammed, 187 swirl port headed 305 in my 1980 chevy truck converted to TBI with headers(1 7/8" primaries), dual 3" exhaust, dual snorkel from a L82 Vette ducted to the core support (I6 location on driverside and V8 location on passenger side), and tuning made 181 RWHP @ 4,200 and 268 ft/lbs @ 2,400 on a Mustang chassis dyno. After putting in a Vortec 350 roller cam out of my dads old 350 Vortec Van engine that was going to junk pile(broken rod,holed block) using the same setup, with some tuning it was able to pull 246 RWHP @ 4,800 and 318 ft/lbs @ 3,600. That was with a 7 bladed clutch fan and all accessories through a 3 spd standard in 3rd gear.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Sorry in advance for being a jerk, but you're clueless. The TBI is speed density, so how can you lose power using speed density TPI? My dad converted his old 1992 Camaro RS 5-speed from TBI to TPI, using the same TBI cam and heads and exhaust manifolds. He gained 18 horsepower and 70 torque at the rear wheels. That's 158 HP to 176 HP and 220 TQ to 290 TQ. Then he swapped in an L98 cam and gained another 11 HP to 187, but the torque was the same. He says the car was MUCH more fun to drive with all the new torque, and he gained 2 miles per gallon. If you dont believe me, do a search for his name "Dyno Don" and you'll find it.
Also, your front accessories are the exact same for TBI and TPI. They'll fit just fine.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

To keep it short, I have already voiced my thoughts on your dads test and I believe it was concluded that your dads car was not making what I should have been in the TQ/Fuel economy department to begin with based on other stock TBI F/B-bodies. You WILL lose power going from speed density TBI to speed density TPI because of the calibration differences, I have witnessed it first hand on a 350 TBI truck swapped to a L98 TPI setup. Running correctly he would have never gained 70 ft/lbs from just a TPI swap alone. I have seen other TBI-TPI swaps lose HP/TQ! Not all TBI accessories are the same as TPI(Perhaps serpentine belt F-Car). Not everyone shares your opinon on TBI to TPI swaps. I hardly call one outrageous claim worthy of Fact. You do realize that 290 ft/lbs is over 350 ft/lbs at the flywheel. That is more than a 350 TPI is rated. See where I am basing my claim on. You are NOT going to get 350 FWTQ from a TPI swap alone. Was one dyno run in 2nd gear and the other in 3rd?

My cam/headers/dual snorkel/tuning out performed you dads TPI swap by a longshot. It is also getting about 20 mpg in a long bed regular cab 1980 chevy truck, 3.08 gears, 3 spd standard, and P255/70/R15 tires.

I have a timeslip in front of me from the Vortec cammed L03. Keep in mind the truck weighs 4,300 lbs, has a 3.08 open rear, a 3spd standard (2.66:1 first gear ratio) on the column, and only P255/70/R15s. The gear ratio was so tall that I either bogged or spun on launch. I launched at 2,000 rpm, slipping the clutch, and shifted 1-2 at 5,800 or about 63 mph (the shift takes atleast 1 sec due to worn, sloppy bushings and the nature of a column shift) and ran through the traps at 4,800 rpm in 2nd gear. Not at all the potential it had.

0060' = 03.40s @ 28.93 MPH
0330' = 06.76s @ 61.41 MPH
0660' = 10.19s @ 72.87 MPH
1320' = 15.61s @ 92.76 MPH

The cammed engine was dyno tested in 2nd gear and the stock in 3rd due to tire speed ratings. The stock cammed L03 was tested on a 93* day and later proved to have a broken valvespring during the cam swap (Whether it was broken during the dyno runs is unknown, but probable because the cam swap was done 1 week later). The cammed engine was dyno tested 4 weeks later in much cooler 78* weather. Both numbers are uncorrected.

vipershark11

iTrader: (6)

wow i dont know who to believe im guessing its either gonna be a hit or miss on power.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Take a look at this site. He is claiming more HP/ more TQ out of an otherwise stock TBI 305 with TPI, than this moded 305 TPI (World Products 305 Torquer heads, Crane 2030 (2031 is Ford and virtually identical) roller cam, shorty headers, no cat, exhaust, SLP runners, and Siamesed plenum) in this Monte. Both have similar drivelines and 5 spd standard transmissions

Here is a quote from the owners website.


Heart Transplant

Heart Transplant - Page 3

vipershark11

iTrader: (6)

the thing is i have this over on the tpi thread too and those guys say i will see very little gains but if i change the cam i will be seeing better gains and itll all work fine with the MAF

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Exactly what I am saying. Why bother to swap to TPI when a cam, exhaust, and tuning will give you more power for less money?

I already told you the speed density/mass air flow results.

vipershark11

iTrader: (6)

no im saying if i get the tpi set up and add the L98 cam with the swap ive been told it would need no computer work due to the MAF and would be awesome

njspder

TBI and TPI both have strong performance potential. that being said i woudl suggest sticking to the type of injection the car came with.
for all the time and effort of swapping to TPI you will only see gains similar to doing free mods on your existing TBI.
another factor to keep in mind is future performance. TPI parts cost a fortune compaired to TBI. TBI can use traditional carb intakes that can be found for 50-75 bucks with a home made or inexpensive adaptor plate, that is about half the cost of a good set of used runners for a TPI set up.
for the cost of parts and the down time involved to get a minimal gain, i woudl say it isn't really worth it.

vipershark11

iTrader: (6)

well all together i figure the cost should be 300 for the entire swap with parts and all. and i dont think itll take too long seeing that i do have experience even though wiring and fuel pump suck ***

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

If you call 215 FWHP @ 4,500 RPM AWESOME than go ahead. I have seen 301 RWHP from a 305 TBI with 6,300 rpm shift points. That is something that would require a $$$ TPI replacement intake and elimination of the LTRs.
----------
Your estimate is WAY LOW! Atleast for a reliable setup.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

My gosh, you're amazing. By any chance are you related to Black Echo?

My data and results are bogus because its just one example, but your one example is legit?

My dad's car was a 5-speed, so 290 lb/ft times 115% is 333 lb/ft. Both dyno runs were made in 4th gear. The TBI setup had 3.08 gears and the TPI had 3.27 gears. Stock was rated at 300 ft/lb, but I guess in your world its impossible for GM to overrate the torque on TPI's like they did with the LS1's? Or perhaps my dad and I are just that good we can squeak more power and torque out of our engines with tuning and chip burning than that guy with the Monte Carlo? By the way, my dad's car got 31 MPG on the highway with TPI, and 29 with TBI.

If you want to know who to believe, just do a search on the TPI board and count the numerous TPI engines running 13's, 12's, and faster, even 305's. Then come back here and you dont have to take off your socks to count how many TBI cars are running even 13's, 350's included.
We've converted several TBI cars over to TPI at his shop, and not one of those owners was dissatisfied with the results. Yes it costs money to convert, but speed costs, how fast can you afford? Repin your existing TBI harness, put in the new computer and chip, install the TPI intake and injectors, and go out and drive hard, leaving the TBI guys in your dust.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Whoa! Somebody slept through math class. 290/.85=341 ft/lbs. I used 15% for peak TQ and 20% for peak HP

That puts your dads otherwise stock L03 to 220 FWHP/341 ft/lbs. That is roughly 50HP and 85 ft/lbs over a stock 305 TBI at the crank from only an intake. YEAH RIGHT!!!

What makes you think mine is based off of one example? It is not! I have 4 TBI engines in my fleet alone! One has had about 5 different engine combos in it. I have built more TBI combos than I care to even mention. One of my past jobs was an installer at a speed shop. We regularly dyno'd NA TBI cars that would spank TPI cars.

The stock rating of 300 ft/lbs was achieved with the L98 cam, Dual cats, bigger exhaust manifolds, better exhaust than the factory LO3 exhaust on your dads car. It makes a huge difference.

The reason that people never run well with TBI is the tuning. It is very important. I know of many 350 TBI fullsize trucks in the mid 14s. I happen to know of atleast 5 454 SS NA TBI trucks that are running in the 13s!

With the EBL now available look for a group of cars to break into the 12s with a lowly TBI setup.

I would love to slap some aluminum L98s on my 312, keep the current cam, drop it in a 5 spd F-Body with some good gears and spank your TPI world.

Oh, now the truth comes out. The gears were different, that will affect rear wheel torque. My 305 with 3.73s made more RWTQ in 3rd than the 350 it replaced did with 3.08s in 3rd from off-idle all the way up! The gear change makes a tremendous difference.

I have had alot of builds over the past few years. For simplicity I am naming only TBI combos.

A.)355 w/ Mellings MTC1 cam, Ported 601 heads, Cast Iron manifolds, Performer RPM intake, Ultimate TBI mods
B.)355 w/ LT1 roller cam, Ported 601 Heads, Headers, Performer RPM intake, Ultimate TBI mods
C.)355 w/ LT1 roller cam, Ported 193 Heads, Headers, Stock intake, Ultimate TBI mods, Chip Work(279 RWHP)
D.)312 w/Stock 350 TBI cam, Ported 081s, Headers, Stock intake, Ultimate TBI mods, Chip work
E.)312 w/L82 350 cam, Ported 081s, Headers, Stock intake, Ultimate TBI mods, Chip work
F.)312 w/ Crane Roller, Ported 081s, Headers, Projection intake, 454 TBI, Chip work (301 RWHP through cut-outs)
G.)312 w/ Crane Roller(1.6:1 rockers), Ported 081s, Cast Manifolds, Edelbrock intake, Ultimate TBI mods, chip work (278 RWHP)
H.)312 w/ Crane Roller, Stock 187s, Cast Manifolds, Edelbrock intake, Ultimate TBI mods, chip work (240 RWHP)
I.)Stock Medium Duty 350 (stock swirl ports, stock RamJet/HT383 cam), Edelbrock intake, Open TBI spacer, 454 TBI, Cast Iron manifolds, Chip Work
J.)Stock Medium Duty 350 (stock swirl ports, stock RamJet/HT 383 cam), Edelbrock Intake,Open TBI spacer, 454 TBI, JBA shorty headers, Chip work

Others
2.8 TBI GMC Jimmy (183/168)
3.4 TBI GMC Jimmy (197/210)
4.3 TBI Chevy Astro (216/250)
305 TBI Truck (181/268 Stock)
305 TBI Truck (246/318 Vortec cam)

My current 350 is running this in a 5,300 lbs van. It is a stock GM crate engine with headers, intake, TBI spacer, 454 TBI, bigger injectors, and custom tuning.

0060' = 02.15 @ 33.93
0330' = 06.67 @ 58.76
0660' = 10.25 @ 71.23
1320' = 16.18 @ 87.95

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...lo3-305-a.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...ects-done.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...t-tbi-car.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...ted-193-s.html

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Who told you how to compute flywheel power from rear wheel numbers? If you do x*1.15 you get one number, and if you do x/.85 you get a different number. You used one, I used the other. Also, I've never heard of anyone using 15% for one and 20% for the other. I've always heard its 15% for manual cars and 20% for automatics.
If you cant believe the TPI intake is that much superior to the TBI setup, its not my problem. We did not do any trickery on the dyno, other than it being two different Dynojets on two different days. The only thing changed between the two dynos was the TBI to TPI swap, and the rear end swap.

You only mentioned one example in your posts, your so-called killer TBI setup in your van, so that's what I'm calling out.
Sure, modified TBI cars will beat stock TPI cars. I've never seen it, but that doesnt mean it hasnt happened in your world.

Except, my dad's car had the factory L98 exhaust put on it. That swap, when it was still TBI, went from 150 HP to 158 HP, and 200 TQ to 220 TQ.

I have aluminum L98's on my engine now, with an LT4 cam. Call me when you get your heads slapped on, and get close to 13's, I'll drive out there and let you "spank" me. Even better, lets call Rich Christensen from "Pinks." I'd love to see the look on your face when you realize you have to beg for lengths to keep up.

Must be your tuning. *EVERY* example I have seen shows 3.73 and 4.10 gears make slightly less power to the wheels than 3.08 and 3.23 gears. But of course, you're dealing with your world and I am dealing with mine.

Take away 2000 lbs and 2 seconds ( 1/10th = 100 lbs ) and you're running about the same as a similar modded TPI. Congrats on achieving average, you must be so proud. Where's the TBI advantage?

Lastly, the final death nail in TBI's coffin is what its known for, having two injectors above the throttle body. That limits its ability to make power. From
FBody.com
at the bottom, you can compute horsepower from injector size. To make 350 horsepower with two injectors, you them to be 110 lbs/hr. You cant even get them that flow that high. But with TPI or any other multi-port fuel injection, you only need 28 lbs injectors, easily found in the aftermarket.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Fixed drivetrain loss is non-existant. Car Craft did a comparison between engine dyno and chassis dyno sometime back. In both cars they tested the difference became greater as the RPM increased. Its simple physics.


Look at how mild this truck is to run 15.2s.

c1500

Then look at this page, there are some seriously fast NA TBI trucks on here.

Kevin Tolliver

Outkast Kustoms

Ben Luginbuhl

Brett Holm

Matt Spinelli

Chris Shaw

Brandon Weber

Chris Lange
(I know it is the same truck!)

Mike Twist

Chris Regan

Look for yourself, there are many more.

http://dragtruck.com/ENTRIES/glance_make.html


Did you do any prom tuning after the swap? It is a known fact that TBI will run lean after a full exhaust!

IF I was close to 13s, I would drop the engine into a F-Body and blow you off the road.

I have seen less HP, but NEVER less torque. The torque output has ALWAYS increased at the wheels.


That comparison is way off. We are talking about the aerodynamics of a brick. They affect me drastically, especially trapping at nearly 88 mph!

Who says I cannot get flows that high. I know the TBI basher. I was running at over 125 lbs/hr on ONE injector on a flow bench! A 68 lb/hr injector running at 40 PSI flows just over 125 lb/hr and has an Excellent spray pattern. With a VAFPR and EBL, you can get 40 psi at WOT and around 20 or less at idle and it will be great.

I made 301 RWHP using 61 lb/hr injectors at 32 psi. That is right at 100 lbs/hr. Running at 85% duty cycle and a BSFC of .5 that is good for 170 HP each or 340 FWHP. A good estimate of my BSFC is around .45 or so, and I know for a FACT my duty cycle was at 93%. That means that I had fuel for about 410 FWHP. I do know that my A/F ratio on a wideband was 12.6:1 all the way from off-idle to 6,500 rpm on the 301 RWHP pull.

125 lb/hr injectors were made for TBI applications, just not in the US. Mexico used a 292 I6 that made around 200 HP and used a SINGLE barrel TBI unit with a single 125 lb/hr injector.

92rsvortec350

iTrader: (8)

I have to step in and say I have had both and tpi is a good set up but it to has limits and when it comes to upgrading intakes and what not tpi sucks look at the price of the super ram set up and i hope you dont have vortec heads to me tbi is a better set its simple and cheap and can beat any tpi car with the same $ in it and as far as needing 110 lbs injectors to make 350hp thats bs injectors are rated at a sertin psi they flow more at a higher psi.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

That is easy to do when you have a fuel system that is only at 10-12 PSI to start with.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I think this statement shows the error of one's way, "other than it being two different Dynojets on two different days."

RBob.

wuz_up92085

holy crap fast, for only being a member for a little over a year you got an awfully alot of posts. you know what that tells me. You got to put your two cents in for everything even if have no clue what you're saying. yes it is not worth coverting a 305 tbi to tpi because just the fact that if you spend a couple jof bucks more you could build a carbed 350. but since he said he can get all the parts for $300 and he and his buddies can put it in for him then I dont see why he already hasn't done it. and you dont need dyno slips and drag times to tell if the speed gained it worth the money. You should just know by a simple drive

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

That post is about useless.

My two cents maybe valuable to someone though.

ALOT of my post are actual projects that I am working on.

Finally, I have been a member long before Jan 05! I had a different name, but lost it after an internet provider change when I forgot my password.

Finally I am one of the few that are continually pushing the limits of the TBI system and have yet to find them. The results of these experiments are posted by myself and others (Dewey316, etc). Open your eyes and look at what I have been working with for the last year.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...uning-ebl.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...-ultimate.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...put-355-a.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...uning-tbi.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...etter-gas.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...tock-fuel.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...tock-fuel.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...s-set-5-a.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...chips-com.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...urt-305-a.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...ld-vaccum.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...-question.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...ike-these.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ines-long.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...heads-why.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...ects-done.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...-l03-dyno.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...ted-193-s.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...injectors.html

crrllmich

They both suck get a Ls1 lol....sorry I had to say it but seriously TPI and TBI have very simular limitation in stock form, but TBI is much cheaper to upgrade.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The LSx series are impressive, but they won't fit my chassis. They are wider than a BBC up top and a BB is at the limit.

The 454 is 26.54" from manifold to manifold and the LSx is like 28 from coil pack to coil pack.

MikeDirntRulez

shut the hell up. Fast is probably one of the most knowledgable people about TBI that you can ever grasp. He puts his 2 cents in because he knows what the hell he is talking about.

The only thing here is that Kevin is mostly proficient in TPI, and Fast is proficient in TBI, thus proving why we have 2 separate boards, and proving that TPI and TBI owners will never get along.

TPI and TBI cars in the same household have been known to tear families apart. It can also kill babies, and make the world stop spinning.

It's a dangerous thing I tell ya'.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

(cough....cough)

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Dad came to his defense.

SchwarzCamaroRS

I HAVE TBI, I HAVE seen Don's, Kevin's and NUMEROUS cars they have built, granted they were built, all of them were TPI and a the vast majority of them run faster than 13.XX, one car that Don built is running 12.41 @ 120 with TPI, call it a hunch, but that would be EXTREMELY difficult to run. Even JPrevost would admit that 12 second TBI is one of those things thats going to take a LOT of effort. Unless youre going to run a 454 TBI in a pinto... I was gung ho TBI too... Until i saw their cars... There is a reason GM upgraded to TPI on the PERFORMANCE cars... More effecient = More power... Asians have known this forever, thats why they have 4cyl honda's running 12's NA too...

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Funny thing is....I don't have to defend him.... I'm the one that did those tests he is talking about and I didn't just fall off the turnip truck yesterday ( might have been pushed tho Ha! Ha!)
I tried all that TBI crap and then went to something worth working on (still making gains). I know TPI isn't the greatest, but then I don't tout it as being so. But we're in cali right?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I doubt Jon would say that. Jon was running low 13's with a slipping trans that also wouldn't shift unless the pedal was lifted. Maybe you should let Jon speak for himself.

RBob.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

IIRC, he said that run also had 20* of timing retard at times.

BTW, Ben73 is running in the mid 12s with his mild 383 (Crossfire which has a worse intake than a TBI but it is still TBI) and Dominic Sorresso is in the low 13s with a mild 350, 3.07 gears, and I believe stock sized tires..

I know that neither are the greatest, but the TBI has great potential as well.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

No response? Hmmm, interesting. . .

RBob.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

No response needed for nitpicking

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Only if you think that using two different dynos on two different days to compare the difference in induction systems to be valid. My post isn't nitpicking, I was pointing out a huge error in the testing methodology.

And, if I may ask, why the name 'Dyno Don?' The real Dyno Don is a legend in his own right. May he RIP.

RBob.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

.
ALL of my combos were tested on the same Mustang dyno, at the same shop, with the same factors entered (the ones listed for a G-series, they actually have them on the list). They have a weather station that is attached to the dyno for correction factors as well. Where possible I have always given corrected numbers.

Going to two different dynos is like going to two different tracks. One may be surfaced different, point up hill, pointed down hill, etc.

It is a know fact that Dynojets and Mustangs give different numbers, with the Mustang's numbers typically more believable. Dynojet dynos typically overate the car compared to track times, etc. Such as stock LS1 automatics making 320ish HP. They made that at the crank. On a mustang dyno 260-280 would be what you get on the same car.

I am an emissions inspector as part of my job. The emissions dyno is calibrated every 72 hours to keep it accurate.

SchwarzCamaroRS

but you and jon would both agree that it took him even a lot of work to get to that point....

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

What?
Do you think I haven't done many test projects on the same two dynos?
Yes...without the facts you are nitpicking.

As for Don Nickelson ....we were very good friends, he lived right here in Orange, California and we raced together in Pro Stock in the '70's.
He was a great legend ...may he RIP for sure.

Look at the picture....behind my car is his Maverick

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Knowing of the nature of a TBI car, I would say yes. But the fault is not in the TBI or the ECM programming itself. It is in the rest of the components. The cam, exhaust, gearing, transmission, 305, etc. Truck 350 TBI engines were 210 FWHP @ 4,000 and 310 ft/lbs @ 2,800. Had the F-body line been given the 350 TBI(with the L98 cam, L98 dual catalyst exhaust, performance prom tune, and the L69 Dual Snorkel) from GM we might not be debating this right now.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Kevin91Z made the statement that the HP & TQ figures that he posted when going from TBI to TPI was done on two different dynos on two different days. Seems to be an error in testing methodology to me. I'm sure that someone of your stature would realize this.

If you read Kevin91Z's post you too will have the same facts.

RBob.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

RBob:
In most cases I might agree with you, but I am the one that did those tests and like I said I have used those same two dynos numerous times and know the characteristics of each.
These weren't just random tests and for someone to try and discredit them for what ever reason is just wrong.

Besides they were done on MY car, (last time I checked my butt dyno still worked) they were very conclusive.

njspder

this whole conversation has fallen apart as most of the TPI vs TBI arguments do.
the plain and simple truth is that both systems are perfectly capable of making power. 13's, 12's, even 11's are jsut as realistic with TBI as they are with TPI because ET's are a greater example of chassis prep than engine power. yes, it does require a certain amount of power to generate teh mph needed to run a specific ET, but both systems have already been proven capable of doing that already which renders it a non-issue.
the difference boils down to the costs invovled, mainly when it comes to intakes and injectors, TPI parts are just expensive any way you cut it. that is why i say stick with the induction system your car came with.
btw, jprevost's car run plenty of mph to get well into the 12's if he ever put tires and suspension under it so that it woudl hook.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I am not trying to discredit you rather protecting my belief in TBI. In fact, I was called out, called clueless, etc. TBI is a very capable injection form. My test have not been random either, they were on my car. When I swapped to MPFI on my TBI GMC there was little to no difference in the way the truck ran. The MPFI was needed to add a turbo due to lack of 2-bar MAP sensor support 3 yrs ago when I did it.

MikeDirntRulez

Yeah, aren't you cool bro. I'm not gonna sit here and play the "who has the bigger *****" game but Fast knows what he's talking about, I don't care how long you have been ****ing with TBI for, all I said is fast knows what he is talking about, PERIOD.... and I like how you are never seen on here showing your knowledge until your reputation is questioned

Dur......

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Why is it that Fast355 knows what he's talking about because he supports TBI, but my dad and I do not because we support TPI and badmouth TBI for its weaknesses? Dur... indeed!

By the way, the two different dynos were both Dynojets and both were corrected to standard.
What MPFI was that? If you say the Edelbrock one or the Holley one that uses your TBI throttle body I'm going to laugh and call your test bogus as much as you call mine bogus.

MikeDirntRulez

Dude, wtf are you talking about???

All I said was Fast knows what he is talking about...... PERIOD. I never said your dad had any clue what he was talking about because i've never seen him speak on the subject before.... not once. All I was commenting on was that Fast knows what he is talking about, and that is all... read above if you don't believe me.

Reading Comprehension > You.