baymarauder

Okay, I've tried to search for this but came up empty handed. I live in Cali, the land of the treehuggers and CARB. I want to get a bit more power out of my tired old LO3, maybe looking for 200-250 RWHP (I mainly plan this car to be used in AutoX and road racing). And I don't want to spend too much money. Easy enough; not much power. But, as my dad is one of these aforementioned treehuggers, and as long as this car sits in his driveway, I need it to pass smog and CARB regs with flying colors. This means no tube headers, no cams, or nothing that doesn't say "C.A.R.B." somewhere on it.

Now, this isn't to say I'm not willing to bend/break the rules, as long as I can't be caught. I swap a cam, just as long as it isn't lopey. I'll cheat where I can; but I don't want to take my engine apart every year so I can get it smogged.

I have been searching for posts on what is Cali legal and have come up short handed. I'm still not the best with the search tool.

I'm somewhat of a novice when it comes to building engines, not to say I don't know my way around an engine bay. So this can't be too complicated a task for me. I'm definatley not pulling the engine out for example. I know, generally, what parts are out there that paople have been using on their TBIs; but whats legal in California? Whats out there in the way of intakes, heads, mild cams, headers (cast ones maybe off another smallblock chevy), and other goodies that pass the rigorous CA smog inspection?

Thanks,
Bryan

MikeDirntRulez

Actually, you can still pass CA. emissions with a cam. Go with the LT1 cam and learn how to burn your own chips. If you don't want to, pay somebody to custom make one for you. Make sure they make your base timing at 0* and make sure that your timing is also at 0* at the distributor.

Another thing would be to upgrade your entire exhaust to 3" piping. That is smog legal as long as your new 3" catalytic converter has an AIR tube connected to it.

Hedman makes CARB legal headers, however they are pretty expensive.
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...0605&langId=-1

Find some Iron 305 TPI heads (cant remember the casting # off the top of my head), they will bolt right onto your TBI motor, however, avoid the 350 TPI heads.

Edelbrock makes a performer intake designed for TBI motors. it does a good job for its price. It also has provisions for EGR which you will need to pass emissions
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...1935&langId=-1

And if you have learned how to burn your own chips, the biggest gain will come from fine tuning your car. Ask any of the experts like Dewey, Shifty, Fast355, they'll all probably tell you that burning your own EPROMS for your car will be the biggest gain.

baymarauder

Wow, thanks for the writeup. Lots of help! You know how much it'd cost to have someone burn my chip for me? And Jegs says about the Intake "50-state legal for use on vehicles originally equipped with a 4-bbl carb ." Should this concern me? And what should i do with the throttle body? Leave it stock? Any idea how much power this setup should make? Ballpark estimate... Will any bottom end work be needed to take the extra power? What about my trans (It's a WC T-5 with 180k miles... )

Thanks again,
Bryan

vorgath

They have an actual TBI intake, at least someone did, with the EGR fittings.

LT1 cam, 1.6 ratio rockers, chip burning, smog legal shorty headers, or the Edelbrock tubular (which have smog fittings as well), etc etc

I have to go through the smog test thingy this year myself, so I'll have to keep some parts aside when the time comes.


Bottom end will be able to handle it, do the Ultimate TBI mods to the throttle body, buy an old one from the junkyard, keep your stock one for smog test, if they even go as far as checking the TBI underneath the air cleaner.


Actually anyone who's been through the CA smog tests
send me a PM or email or something, I need to know what exactly they check for, how thorough they are.

MikeDirntRulez

I noticed that too, so I double checked in my Edelbrock catalog and I can assure you that the performer intake is 50 state legal. I can scan the page if you would like.

MikeDirntRulez

They do a visual test: i.e. they look in their computer and check your AIR fittings on your headers, check for the AIR fitting on your cat, visually inspect the lines, check for exhaust leaks/cutouts that are BEHIND the cat. Anything after the Catalytic converter doesn't matter. They then check for an operable EGR and no SES lights. If your car throws a code while it is in their posession, you automatically fail.

Then they check your timing. It HAS to be set to whatever corresponds with the label underneath your hood. And in all TBI engines, that is at 0* TDC. If it is not set correctly, you will automatically fail.

Then they put your car on a dyno-type thing and put a sensor in your tailpipe. That's where they measure the amount of NOx and other chemicals that come out of your tailpipe. This is probably where non-CARB legal heads and other performance parts would hurt you.

Cadillac

Great answers, Mike. You rock!

Bryan... Bay Area Third Gen represent!

baymarauder

Don't worry I trust you. Don't even bother. This is as helpful a thread as any.

baymarauder

Absolutley... Lets show all those fox owners' who's boss!!

bluechevy194

for a cam as long as you keep the lobe separation around 112-114 you will be ok and keep the lift around .450, if u go higher in lift it will be harder to get it to pass smog. i found on my cam that it was idling rich, but thats the only reason it wouldnt pass, i did some minor tuning and got it to pass. cam wise thats all u need to worry about, just dont go to radical on the cam, and of course it has to pass visual, so be carful what else you put on your engine.

MikeDirntRulez

I also forgot to mention, that if you have an open element, you will 100% fail the inspection.

Make sure when you get your car tested, you put the original intake back on!!

You need to have that thermac flapper thing on your car in order to pass inspection.

vorgath

An LT1 cam with 1.6 ratio rockers, should pass huh ?

MikeDirntRulez

1.6 RR will not pass.

Julie Bergman

As long as we are on the smog subject, I would like to put a Holley AFPR on my Ca LB9 Formula (see avatar). Do these pass smog?

vorgath

How come the 1.6 rockers won't pass ? Because together with the LT1 cam lift would come to close to .500 ?

BMmonteSS

I seriously doubt the smog ****'s will be pulling your valve covers to look for roller rockers. If your burning your OWN chips, then passing the LT1 cam with or without rockers shouldn't be hard at all. You may want to find a shop that will let you do some tuning while your on the rollers. I wouldn't even bother with a mail order chip, you can just advance your timing at the dissy make your stock FPR adjustable and do as much as the "custom" chips do, then set it all back to stock when smog time rolls around.

I think a general rule of thumb of what you can do and pass smog would be

without chip tuning you can do:

full exhaust
intake
air cleaner assy. (open element or otherwise)
1.6 rockers


With chip tuning (the DIY kind):

cam (lt1 would be cake, bigger is very doable with practice)
heads
bigger TB and injectors


The key to power with the LO3 is in the heads and cam, this is what's holding you back the most. The problem with changing them is it changes the whole "personality" of the engine, and the stock tune isn't going to cut it. The stock ECM is very tunable and can be tuned to run some pretty wild stuff, you just have to be willing to learn the ropes of DIY tuning. It's not easy, but it's very rewarding and it may be the only way your going to make it to 240-250 HP.

vorgath

What about muffler ? Would they whine if I show up with a glasspack right after the cat converter, ending before the rear end ?

Julie Bergman

You can do whatever you want after the cat, however, a glass pack is really loud and will get you a noise ticket. There are tons of good mufflers out there that will get you the sound that you want without using a glass pack. I've got the Flowmaster cat back on my car, sounds great!

b's90cam

If i were to start over from stock, i would first do a full exhaust starting with the hooker 2055, magnaflow cat and catback. I would then do the ultimate tbi mods and the edelbrock intake. After i would swap for the lt1 cam and port the heads. The best thing about this is if you want to swap to a 350 you can reuse everything but the heads. And do some tuning the whole time!!

GOY

What's all this crap about big lift = failed emissions??? That's garbage - as long as the engine burns what makes it in at idle, lift means little. You can have big lift and short duration - are you trying to tell me that will fail? It might fail in a non-roller situation where big lift = larger duration because the ramps aren't as aggressive, but there are some seriously aggresssive roller lifts ramps out there.

Anyway, I think this is about perfect for you. You could save some $$ by using a smaller cam and not porting the heads, but hey, why do that then later decide you want more? http://chevyhiperformance.com/techar..._0409_mission/

ratrodjon

Their are some counties in california that require a smog on change of title ONLY or none at all. These counties have po boxes. Their is a change of adress form in your renewel notice. 'nuff said. Go crazy.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

DFW smog laws are similar to you Cali, they are both ****. Hell I had to go to a referee center for my TBI swap, they had to make sure everything was there for a TBI engine, then gave me a letter to present every year at inspection time.

Here is the rundown for keeping your engine smog legal. Keep in mind if your car throws a code while they have it in California you FAIL.

Edelbrock makes a smog legal Intake for TBI, it works very well.

Ultimate TBI mods are not grounds for failure atleast in Texas, done well you can't even tell they were done.

Headers providing you can prove they are 50 state legal will not make you fail.

You can hide much larger injectors in the TBI as they all look the same externally and I am sure they won't look at injector numbers. As long as your program is accurate for them they won't hurt your smog. I doubt that they check fuel pressure so modifying the stock regulator or an approved aftermarket regulator should be fair game.

Get a CARB approved HIGH FLOW cat and a Cat-Back exhaust system.

CARB approved headers will help alot.

Vortec or LT1 cam will be a large improvement over stock and not cause you to fail smog.

1.6:1 rockers are available that are 50 state legal, think of the Crane ones GM used on the LT4.

Go with a lower restriction air cleaners such as the one used on a L69 (should not have a problem there as all the hookups can be provided and all smog can be retained).

Since you will be keeping the Smog Pump, I would definately go with an underdrive pulley on the crank (smaller alternator pulley as well) as that will free up some power due to lower parasitic drag. For my G20 I found a crank pulley off of a later model Astro 4.3 that bolted up and was about 1.5" in diameter smaller than the 1992 350 one.

You can do alot of tuning in the Prom that will not hurt smog, especially in PE mode. I know that even the dyno smog check here does not hit PE mode.

Make sure the timing is set at 0* @ the distributer and in the chip, they will check the timing according to the factory specified method. Once they plug back in the EST it cannot be checked as it varies continueosly. That means timing in the chip is fair game, especially Highway mode and PE.

I would try to keep everything as stock as possible in normal driving, but activate highway mode and use the PE to get the power. You should hold a 14.7:1 air fuel mixture at part throttle and under light loads below a certain speed. Here they do a four part check, steady 15 MPH, acceleration to 25 MPH, steady 25 MPH, coast back to 15 MPH. The emissions are measured while the car runs on the "Rolling Road". It would be best if you found out the particular procedure used in your area.

Make sure that all your sensor work properly. I would also upgrade to a Delco 3-wire heated O2 sensor for cleaner emissions near idle especially with headers.

You could go as far as porting the 187s if you need the stock casting numbers or swap to 081 TPI heads. The 081s are the same externally as the 187s and will appear stock except the casting numbers. The 081s can be ported to flow excellently and make good power. The 187s should be able to be worked like the 193s to make good power.

Paint everything on the engine flat block and grind off logo's on the intake. Keep everything stock appearing and it shouldn't raise any questions. Make it look like a stock engine with headers, L69 Air Cleaner, and Exhaust.

You can make lots of power and still stay smog legal.

vorgath

E X C E L L E N T Fast355, now that post should be made into a sticky.

1992rs/ss

IL runs the same sniffer test cali does, but no visual inspection. the moderator on the nw indiana board put in 383 in his formula, ditched most of the emissions equipment and did very light tunning and passed the sniffer test better than most new cars.
what I am trying to point out is that you can have a "radical" motor and still pass a sniffer test. follow what Fast355 wrote up and you should be fine. I really really really suggest going to moates.net and getting some chip burning equip. and making your own chips. the o2 sensor change will really help with making AFR where it needs to be with the new mods. also this way you can run the most advance and then turn it back before the test.
I also suggest going to the 305 tpi heads that have had a little bit of porting to them. the stock tbi heads suck....period. porting them is a waste of time. I would not worry about grinding off part numbers as there is no way the guy giving you the test will be cross checking GM part numbers.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The TBI heads SUCK air/fuel in, burn it pretty quick, expel the burnt gases well, and are not that bad, especially for his anticipated power output. They could make 270 HP in stock form!

1992rs/ss

270 hp is what max flow numbers are possible at the crank. he wants rear wheel

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I was talking RWHP. 200 RWHP is about 235 FWHP, 250 RWHP is about 300 FWHP. You could get over 300 FWHP with STOCK swirl ports. Closer to 325 on the 193s! I have a stock L98 cammed 305 with 187s on it that is putting out about 210 RWHP in a S10.

Dewey made 208 RWHP without touching the stock 187s with a combination that I feel is less than ideal. The single plane needs to go if you are listening Dewey.

vorgath

I got another LO3 in my garage, so I'm goign to do all my work on that one. 1/6 ratio rockers, no clue what cam, port the stock heads, port match etc etc and we'll see what happens.

So I may go and do the smog check with that other engine, but it may very well be with the one I got in the car right now.

baymarauder

Okay, wow this a load of info. Thanks guys! So basically I could be pushing upwards of 200 RWHP, with an LT1 cam, ported TBI heads, Hedman headers, hi-flow cat, 3 in cat-back, Edelbrock intake, ultimate tbi mod, and an air filter? I am still getting mixed reviews with the 1.5 vs 1.6 RR. Has anyone passed smog with this basic setup with 1.6 RR? 1.5? Would it be worth it for me to burn my own PROM, or should I hire a shop to do that? (I don't have any of the equipment, nor do I know anyone who does.) How much should I expect a shop to charge for a dyno tune? Does anyone know a good shop in the peninsula that'll do it?

Also, on a bit of a side note, whats the GM part # for the AC delete pulley?

Thanks,
Bryan

vorgath

Stock rockers are 1.5 or 1.52, something like that. Problem is they may not all be exactly the same ratio, they were made well maybe not 100 percent precise, if ya know what I mean.

BMmonteSS

Don't bother with a prom unless you burn your own or a willing to spend mega bucks to pay someone to tune your vehicle. A shop won't be able to get you to pass emisions in an hour or so that most shops spend on a "custom tune". Most of the time they only mess with WOT stuff. You'll have to find some one who really knows our system, and there aren't many, even then you'll spend more getting it tuned then your entire buildup.

The key here is prom tuning, if you learn how to burn your own proms and get proficient at tuning. The sky is the limit, you can get a big cammed 383 to blow clean.

baymarauder

What kind of learning curve is there for programming? I take stuff on pretty fast. How long does it take most people to learn it?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The learning curve is potentially very expensive. It takes a good amount of research to arrive to the proper combination of components, software, datalogging, burner, etc. Took me probably 100 hrs of research before ever touching a prom burner. I wanted to know exactly what would need to be done before starting. The internet has been loaded with info for 5+ years.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

This may help you.

1LE / AC Delete / Smog Delete Pulley info

The stock rocker arms are 1.5 for those who were wondering. A 1.6 rocker will increase lift and duration just a slight bit. However, be carefull as you could exceed the lift limits with stock heads an LT1 cam and 1.6 rockers.

baymarauder

What about on the stock cam? With Intake and full exhaust, would thes 1.6RRs pass? Also whats the stud diameter for the rockers?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The stock peanut cam is about .373/.411 with 1.6:1 rockers, that is roughly equivalent to a stock 70s smog 350 cam. Basically what was used in the 305 truck engines in the early 80s rated at 175 net FWHP. A much more common and cheaper cam from a B-body LT1 or Vortec Truck cam should work great with or without 1.6:1 rockers on a 305. The saving grace on the vortec cam is the narrow lobe seperation compared to a LT1. Overlap is actually very close between the two, but the Vortec cam does it with less duration. I am a fan of keeping the lobe seperation as tight as possible for the duration without getting excessive overlap. Part of the key to passing smog here will be keeping the overlap low.

The B-Body/Vortec cam is
191/196 @ .050, .418/.430, 111* lobe center
w/ 1.6 rocker .446/.459

The F-Body cam(varies depending on year) is around
203/208 @ .050, .447/.459, 117* lobe center
w/1.6 rocker .477/.480 (which is too much for stock swirl port heads without cutting)

The Vortec cam with 1.6:1 rockers should pull pretty hard in a near stock 305 with a good tune.

I know some will throw the flag but here are some rough DD2000 estimates for this combo.

Vortec Cam, Stock 187s, Stock Intake, Ultimate TBI mods, Good exhaust with shorty headers, adequate fuel, good tuning.
RPM--------HP------TQ
2,000-----119-----313
2,500-----150-----314
3,000-----178-----311
3,500-----194-----292
4,000-----201-----263
4,500-----193-----225
5,000-----172-----181

Vortec Cam, 1.6:1 rockers(Keep in mind the reduced friction is not taken into account on the rollers), Stock 187s, Stock Intake, Ultimate TBI mods, Good Exhaust with shorty headers, adequate fuel, good tuning.
RPM--------HP------TQ
2,000-----119-----313
2,500-----150-----315
3,000-----178-----312
3,500-----195-----292
4,000-----202-----264
4,500-----194-----227
5,000-----174-----183

1992-1995 F-Body LT1 Cam, Stock 187s, Stock Intake, Ultimate TBI mods, Good Exhaust with shorty headers, adequate fuel, good tuning.
RPM--------HP------TQ
2,000-----110-----288
2,500-----141-----296
3,000-----168-----294
3,500-----185-----278
4,000-----190-----249
4,500-----180-----209
5,000-----159-----167

I then ran all three engines in a simulated RS Camaro with 3.08 gears, 700r4, 2,000 stall, a race weight of 3,550 lbs and 245/50/R16s on it.

#1 was capable of a simulated 15.94 @ 86.1 spinning halfway through first gear.
#2 was about the same as it should be.15.82 @ 86.7
#3 was a dog compared to #1 & #2 at a weak 16.3 @ 84.4 (granted I am showing 5,000 rpm max and the LT1 wakes up above that compared to the vortec. I feel that the Vortec cam is just a better match for daily driving. It is drastic improvement of the stock 305 cam and it is a stock 305 cam itself.

BMmonteSS

I read off and on for a winter before buying my prom equipment. I started with a 300 HP 350 and a "non-computer friendly" cam in a car that never had FI and had the car moving under it's own power in 2 or 3 evenings, and running ok in a month. It took almost a year to get it perfect. If I had started with something closer to stock you can cut those times in half. With the knowledge I have now I can have a tune nailed in a month of daily driving. Granted my deffinition of nailed is better than GM's.

baymarauder

Well there's the problem... I got 3.42s, a T-5, 265s, a very nice clutch, and the thing only weighs about 3350 with me and some gas in it.

Regardless, now that I've had some time to look at next summer, I don't think I have the time to do everything (considering I have to get a job and I'm going to Athens) I wanted to do for that car. (I already have quite a laundry list, inc. LS1 brakes, front end rebuild, full susp rebuild, fixing a bunch of little electrical glitches, etc.) I still want to get a start on that engine however. So what I was thinking for the time being is to do this:

Full exhaust
1.6RRs
Edelbrock intake
Open element filter
new distributor/coil, wires, and plugs
A/C delete

This, aside from the air filter, should pass smog without a tune right? That's all I'm really concerned about.

Then later on down the road, using this wonderfully detailed thread , I'll start trying to work a little more power out of the engine.

Thanks,
Bryan

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

In california? I would doubt it. A full exhaust alone is enough to throw your tune off and cause your car to run slightly rich.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

An exhaust is enough to throw the tune off, but it will throw you LEAN.

Since they don't go to WOT in most smog tests, with a good 02 sensor and a fully warmed up car, I don't see why it would not pass.

My 1980 Chevy truck passed just fine in Texas with no tuning(Blew practically ZEROs!). It has a regular old 250 HP 350 crate with about 25,000 miles, Holley Projection intake, Ultimate TBI mods, 14.5 PSI fuel pressure, Headers, Duals with a X-Pipe, High Flow cats, 3-wire HEATED DELCO 02 sensor, and a stock 1987 truck calibration.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

At part throttle? With a full exhaust, open element, stock tune, and an Edlebrock intake my car ran like poo and ate fuel. It almost burned your eyes. At WOT I agree with you.

My bud had the same basic combo with the addition of an LT1 cam and a crappy tune and he failed. It took him many burns later to pass.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

We put a vortec cam in my buddies Civilian 305 TBI caprice and it ran well enough to be driveable and pass inspection on the stock tune.

Shifty- Was your O2 too far downstream to get hot? Perhaps you had the system welded on and destroyed the 02 sensor in the process(done that!). Still the same 02?

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

At the time I was running flowtech headers and I drilled the O2 right in the collector just about in the OEM spot. I was running a Bosche O2 which has been known to make your car run rich. I did not data log at the time so I cannot validate that for sure. perhaps that was a contributing factor?

Maverick_IX

If full exhuast means no catalytic convertor that could contribute to a rich result on a sniff test, also a clogged or unkept carbon canister can sometimes lead to a rich exhaust even if it isn;t affecting performance.

chesterfield

This is what you are up against in areas of CA.


"New Test Equipment. In the smoggiest areas of the state (Enhanced Areas), new Smog Check test equipment (BAR-97) is required. It features a dynomometer, which is essentially a treadmill used to simulate actual driving conditions. A new test, called Acceleration Simulation Mode (ASM), will be perfumed on this new equipment in order to detect oxides of nitrogen (NOx) emissions. "


From what I understand it puts a load on the wheels that simulates climbing hills while maintaining rpm at 2500.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

That is what we do here. The engine speed is kept between 1500 and 2500 here. On my van it wants to go into 3rd and lock, 1300 rpm or stay in 2nd 2,800. Therefore, I got a Two Speed idle.

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

getting the tune right does make a big difference, my car passed last time with self cleaning cats & a non working EGR. i don't know how long it would have taken me without access to a 5 gas analyzer to get a good passing tune, with it i spent about 1 1/2 ~ 2 hours, that includes getting the speed constant set right.

i see there are some differences between DFW & houston that i didn't know about.
here for ASM we only check 15 & 25 MPH steady state, the only reason we would go back to 15 from 25 MPH is for second chance. on RPM it has to be 400 ~ 2500.

Fast355, if you tested here you may fail on NOx, not so much for third gear, but because of the TCC being locked, it can cause a really big jump on NOx, or at least it does on my car.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Maybe the speed/rpm is different for different vehicles. Or maybe I am just thinking of different number. 400 sounds too low though. 2500 is the max though, I am thinking around 1,500 is the low. I do know that my van always has trouble because the transmission wants to shift and lock so soon.

I believe that our ASMs are actually the same though.

15/25 is right for the speeds, with a varience of +/- 1 mph allowed. I do know that the dyno load is dropped on the acceleration from 15-25 mph.

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

i can't think of them right now, but i know there are a few things that are different here than what you have there, they told us back when i took the class & test for doing state inspection.

400 is too low, i have yet to see any automotive gas engine that runs that slow.
the state wants to know the RPM on every test, they get mad if we bypass RPM more than once or twice a month. on some cars both the inductive & clamp on RPM pickups on our machine have a
really hard time reading the right engine speed, i have had a few that completed the test with a reading of 415 RPM, i do know the difference between 400 & 1800, really, i do.. LOL.

with higher RPM, most cars are cleaner.
with my gearing, i can run first gear & still be under the 2500 RPM limit at 25 MPH.

that +/- 1 MPH is really hard to hold on some cars, you get 1 speed excursion at 15 & 1 at 25, on the second speed excursion it aborts the test.

i just noticed,.. only 2 more years of emissions testing on your van too, then we both get the cheap stickers

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

BTW, I am an inspector as well. I will just have to look at the RPM limits. I also know about the tach signal on the POS. DIS is the hardest to get a signal from.