justlearning

okay guys bare w/ me this one will be a lil lengthy... im gonna build up my 305 tbi a lil bit its not gonna be a drag it will still be my daily driver so i gotta stay economical and still pretty good on gas let me know what u guys think cause ive never done all this to a car before ( but i will have help on the install stuff hopefully from a friend) this is what i wanna put in it

a comp cams k kit not positive on part number ill have to get it but around the same a lil more than a lt1 cam it just comes w/ the springs and timing chain etc....

home ported and polished 081 heads (will also be my first attempt at porting so if you guys know of good threads on these heads let me know i already have the sitting bull thread but its for 601s) will most likely have 1.94 valves in it unless u guys think its not needed im a lil affraid of porting myself but im gonna go ahead and get them first to take my time while saving for other stuff.

some type of 1 5/8 inch headers either hooker or headman not sure if shortys or full lenth yet but probably full length for the torque curve on my 305. full three inch exaust to flowmaster including custom y pipe

stock 305 tb w/ ultimate mods and an edelbrock tbi unit but possibly a carb single plane w/ an adapter (also wanting advice on this one)

now for the questions this combo w/ the new heads shouldnt effect my cp ratio enough to not use regular unleaded will it as long as i stay away from the combustion chamber other than unshroudin a bit where needed??
and the most important this will also be a first time for chip burning i will be gettin the moates burner and probably using free software but by then i will have a pretty good donated laptop more than enough for dataloggin and already made an aldl adapter...but i wanna know if someone will help me hand in hand w/ what i need to change and such cause i dont even know where to begin but i wanna start w/ a rough draft before i do the install cause i dont want a whole lot of down time....just wanting to know if someone would be willing to work w/ me like i said since im brand new to it (and yes ive read the stickies but still very very unsure where to start and i dl a bin and program and dont get most of it) and need someone to talk to me like im pretty clueless i wont take offense i swear lol...well i think thats about it ill post them cam specs later ill look for them if i cant find em ill call comp cams back for em thanks all all responses appreciated!!!!

justlearning

and please take this thread serious i see alot of people sayin this type of stuff askin for hp numbers and never really doin it but i really am goin to i already have the cash for the junk yard heads just gotta find time to get em and already have the exaust except y pipe and headers will have a die grinder tomorrow and am in the process right now of gettin a pretty much bullet proof rear built its in a corvette shop right now (had one installed prior and got burned but thats a whole other story and soon to be court case after right at 2 grand and rear grindin and ruined after one week and bad brakes now somehow) so please i promise im not pullin your chains just to dream this is serious and im saving as quick as i can and as my bills permit but im on my way.

88TATBI5.7

id try tuning you car a bit before you throw everthing in your car, if herd it is a pain in the *** to get it perfect the farther from properly tuned you start. as in if you put a large duration cam inwithout doing any tuning at all. its always good to have a bit of practice any way. dont know if this helps but someone with more ability will jump in soon and point you in the right direction. any way good luck.

justlearning

oh yeah i was gonna get a rough tune before i even finish gettin all the parts let along bolting them up thats what im sayin in the last part i was wanting someone to help walk me through almost step by step since im so new to all of this but i cant have much down down time w/ out it runnin cause i gotta drive it to work but im only a five min. drive so a running tune will work while dataloggin and changin cause i know that will take alot of trial and error especially w/ what ive read about this ecm not very good for data loggin.

oh and i did leave off some small stuff like bumpin up fuel pressure and tryin to find some 350 tbi injectors.

vorgath

Learn tuning ... PROM

I've put my plans on the shelf for now.. until I've learned and tried some chip burning myself .... cams and everything will BARELY work with the stock chip

jimp2001

why not just buy a 350 crate motor, bolt up your TBI and be done with it?

88TATBI5.7

but you can do the exhaust and bolt on stuff. by the way buy a cheap head and practice porting, just a thought

vorgath

Will that work without proper tuning though ? Due to quite a big difference in airflow and possibly also compression .. unless heads with 58 cc chambers can be found.. or... 64cc and milled down

justlearning

okay ive been readin all afternoon and into the night and im seeing the swirl ports may have a chance but heres the thing id have to buy another set of swirl ports to port same thing id have to buy a set of 081 to port if i get and do a home port job on the 081 will i loose any low end torque i dont wanna loose any torque just to gain a couple of hp up top cause this will be a street engine probably not seeing the track more than once or twice ever...what do u guys think i had the flow numbers on both ported but lost the threads thanks

88TATBI5.7

dont know for sure, but all the work he was going to put into a 305 i dont think that is worth it. thats what i was tring to say. work with bolt on. ie exhaust intake. the things that you can swap over to the 350. then put the 350 in after you get better at tunning. thats what i think anyway i havnt done it so i dont know/

if you plan on buying heads id go with the 081 they have more potential

justlearning

so your sayin the 081 r 64 cc ?? and the swirl port 187 r 58 cc ? and it would cost more to do the 350 crate plus i really want to get my hands dirty and learn this stuff cause i find it amazinly interesting and my dad is not quadrapledic and cant show me everything he knew when foolin w/ them but i still really wanna learn and yeah i will do a pre burn chip before all installs as long as someone here thats experienced is willing to teach me and walk me through it all step by step cause i think that will by far be the hardest part but i wanna get a rough burn just off what the specs will be and comparing to other bins w/ similar mods just to get it drivable then go from there w/ dataloggin and multipule burns to dial it in. thanks

justlearning

yeah i see what your sayin about pullin and droppin in a 350 but id have to pull the motor and try and swap everything and such and still get it completly tunned and dialed in w/ a new ecm etc....wich would involve alot of down time i cant have it being my only car i can use a car for a few days if i run into problems w/ my intalls over the weekends but cant use it too long. also it will just be a daily driver street engine and im not lookin for monsterous amounts and the money thing would still come out to more on the 350 cause i will need headers on either one...and the heads will come from the yard so they wont be much at all...the cam would be the only thing really other than the computer stuff which i will also need either way. same goes w/ the intake it would be the same for both engines.

vorgath

To keep it simple *shrugs* maybe go with a LT1 cam ... although that may not be enough with ported heads and complete exhaust system ???

justlearning

yeah the cam i remember was pretty close to lt1 specs it just comes w/ matched springs retainers etc... what ever comes in the comp cams k kits

88TATBI5.7

seeing how you not looking to get to much power you can do the cam kit for your car. you will see a pretty decient improvement in power. then when the time comes to through the 350 in the car (when you get the power itch again) you could use the cam in the otherdepending on what you choose.
but for the 305 i would just buy the cam and matched springs to save some money. but thats me. the kits are good too but with a roler cam you dont allways need to change the lifters

88TATBI5.7

you have roller lifters and the k kits come with everything. lifters cam timing chain springs retainers and locks. got one for my car cast like 650

justlearning

d@mn i thought they were just like 350 if its that much i may just get the lt1 cam and timin chain and springs and retainers sep. lol but i gotta go to bed it 2 am almost here but keep em commin is there anyone who will be willin to help w/ the chip burning when i get the stuff. should have the burnin equip. in the next two months....nite all thanks for the help so far just keep em commin. later

88TATBI5.7

ask about chip burning on the burning board. im new myself

BMmonteSS

I'm more than willing to help with the chip burning, but you have to be willing to sit down and read a 6 page post 3 or 4 times. There are alot of papers that really explain how things work, it just takes a bit for it to sink in and make sense. I don't think you'll find too many people that will be willing to answer a "how do I tune my chip" type of question, but you'll find that everyone will answer a "WHERE do I find out how the timing routines work in my ECM" type of question.

As for porting, I would stear clear of the swirl ports. They can be made to perform quite well, but you'll be way ahead with any other head. If your wanting to stay with 58cc combustion chambers you may want to look into the HO 305 and LG4 heads. They flow decently, and really wake up with a decent port job. Standard Abrasives has a really good article that explains how to do a "port job". The real objective for a DIYer like your yourself is to consentrate on just cleaning up the port. You don't want to get into making the port bigger, you can actually hurt flow here, you really need a flow bench once you get to this level. Just a simple pocket job and smoothing of the short turn radius does wonders. You can expect a 30 HP increase by just cleaning up the head. In the combustion chamber you want to just knock off any sharp edges to help fight off detonation. You can also unshroud the valve a bit, but this won't make a lot of power like concentrating on the bowl will.

Of course all of these parts will swap right over to a 350. You can even use the 58cc heads on a 350 if you use dished pistons. Of couse get into chip tuning before you swap a single part. I wish I would have, my car didn't move for a week after I swaped the TBI system on my old carbed setup.

justlearning

thanks for the input bmonte yeah i wouldnt even insult you guys w/ questions like help me burn my chip its more like what should be the first thing to look at and gettin a modified bin from others just to see how they went w/ it and compare so that i can get that rough tune in before i ever bolt on a part then i put on the parts one week and swap in that pre burned chip just to take me the five miles to work and ill datalog and such after about a week once my cam is broke in and come back and let u guys know what the driveability issues r and post datalogs and get some input but as i said i dont even know where to begin if u look in the prom room ull see a thread tword the top sayin new to 746 like one day or somethin like that itll speak for itself i cant even figure out how to fully disable the egr for sure....but this is just me messing around tryin to get familar w/ the software.

as for the heads so u dont think that 081 casting will be good heads to start from?? if i would loose any low end grunt i wouldnt use them cause my operating range still wont go over 5000 being a street daily driver what castings should i look for then??? 416s? thanks for the input so far and as soon as i decide on a head choice ill start looking for it to do the porting and as for the aritcles on it i already have the one from standard abrasives and the one from sitting bull although i cant find the one by f-bird88 yet w/ the rpm contoller diagram. and ive read traxions guide like 10 times and know the very basics it discusses....but i havent really gone through grumpys like that yet but i do have it saved on the pc thanks for the input guys keep it commin i need to decide on a head.

BMmonteSS

Quite frankly, I don't know what combustion chamber size the O81's are and what size valves they have. If the 081's have the combustion chamber size you like, go with them. your not going to hurt your streetability with any stock head, they were designed for the street. Just pick up a head that has the combustion chamber size you want, and port them up and have a decent set of heads for cheap.

Don't worry about bottom end grunt, you don't drive a truck. Your going to increase power across the board, more so on the top end since thats where these motors are choked. I just barely needed a 2000 stall with the cam I'm running, so you'll be fine with something a little milder. Keep in mind too that too much bottom end will just make tire smoke. In a race or just when your in the throttle in general you never go below 3500 rpm, and there isn't anything wrong with going past 5000 rpm on a daily driver. I shift mine at 5800 and it will go all the way to 6500 before I get into valve float.

The chip stuff seems very intimidating at first, just have to start burning chips and get busy, it'll all fall into place. Are you data logging yet? If so start watching your BLM table and see where you need some work. Thats the best place to start after the basic EGR and speed limiter stuff.

justlearning

naw not data loggin yet waiting on a free laptop in the next week or so but its a hell of a freebie it will be about a p3 800mhz if everything works out its from an i t guy at my work. but at the moment my car is in the shop about to have a new rear end put in it like i said b4 its a very long story on that one but it will be a bullet proof rear end when its done not to steep of gears though just an eaton posi w/ 3.23 gears in it but much better than the peg leg 2.78 it started w/. yeah the chip thing is my biggest worry i can get help w/ the install part from a guy up the street but the chip burnin i know no one but u guys who can do it. i will be the first i actually know to even attempt it most of my friends r into imports and the older guys i know run a carb.
as for the head i dont really know about them too much i just heard the 081 are much better than my swirl ports and have even more potential when ported a lil bit. i belive my stock heads on the l03 r the 416 castings but not sure if they would be 64 or 58cc and i know compression can even change w/ the gaskets u use...this will be my first time actually learning this stuff but i really wanna do this its somethin ive wanted to learn for the longest and now i can put back a lil money here and there and get started (first ill get the headers and junk yard heads or used, then the chip tunnin stuff, then the cam and injectors and intake, and install it all at once.) like i say it will take a few months to gather all the pieces but it will be done. the chip work as i said is the part im really intimidated by but in the mean time till i get the stuff for it ill keep reading and pluggin away w/ the bin and tuner pro i have now on the pc but at this point im lost on it. thanks
john

vorgath

Stock should be 58 cc ... correct me if I'm wrong on this one

justlearning

stock what the l03 or the 081 heads or both thanks for all the answers and opinions so far guys this is really helping to reasure and rethink some stuff before i go and try and find a set of heads next week if i have the time.

justlearning

sorry guys ive been callin the heads on my car stock the 416s i dont know y i think they r really the 193s the r stock on the 91 rs 305 tbi so i think they r 193 sorry for the confusion if someone could tell me what the cc r for these and for 081s and if they r diff. would goin to 081 make me use better than 87 octane?

Casey_Butt

Justlearning, your L03 should have 187 heads (swirl ports) if they're stock. The 193s are a 350 TBI head. The 187s have the same combustion chamber size as 081s or 416s - they're all around 58cc, so your compression ratio won't change and you won't need to move up to higher octane fuel. As far as I know, the only 305 heads (with the bigger 1.84" intake valves) with a smaller combustion chamber are the 601s - they're about 53cc. 601s will bump an L03's compression ratio up to about 9.9:1 (most likely requiring the higher octane fuel).

By the way, if you're just talking about a street machine, I think the 305 is a fine motor as far as a motor of 5.0 liters displacement goes. Of course, it won't have the potential of a 350 (which won't have the potential of a 383 - which won't have the potential of a 427, etc, etc, etc) and it won't rev like a 302. But it can be real strong in the lower and mid ranges and will probably make peak hp between 5000 and 5500 rpms. As far as a street machine is concerned, it's a good match for our cars given it's strong mid-range torque and our cars' weight (~3300-3400 lbs).

justlearning

k thanks looks like im in the market for some 081s then to start to attempt my first port work on this will be fun im sure but im willing to take my time while im saving for the other stuff (chip equip., cam, injectors, manifold.) w/ the 305 should i deff. upgrade to 1.94/1.5 valves or would the stock ones be okay for the 305 i think bmonte said 1.94 how much would it cost (estimate) at a machine shop to have them fitted for larger valves never had to have machine work done before thanks again!!

Casey_Butt

081s should have 1.84" intake valves, so I don't think going up to 1.94" will give you that much difference, especially when you consider that these heads (except the swirl ports actually) flow notoriously weak on the exhaust side (though porting and polishing will correct that). The late 70s 305 heads had small 1.71" intake valves so moving up to 1.94" would be more crucial there. 1.84" is a fairly decent size valve size for a 305 (equivalent to a 1.97" on a 350 - which was bigger than the LT1 had) - I don't think going a little bigger is really necessary for a street machine, but if you have the money and want to throw for it might give you 3-4 extra hp.

justlearning

well i know i will be replacing the valve stem seals when i get the heads just to make sure no oil is sneaking down into the combustion chamber and the springs will be changed too due to the fact that a cam will go in at the same time....i just figured that the valves may need to be replaced also and possibly the seats but thats doubtful if they r low miles but i dont really know what to look for on the valve seat or valves that would warrant a replacement is needs i know that u can check by the freeplay or clearance in them im rereading the chevy small blocks on a budget to try and understand this part but if all is well those will be able to stay. if they needed to be replaced though i was thinkin of goin ahead and getting them fitted if machine work wasnt gonna be too much but im not real sure till i get the heads and have them looked over real well.

vorgath

Not sure what the stock valve guides were ... either way.. have them changed out ... to manganese-bronze valve guides

88TATBI5.7

well on cast iron heads if the seats are that bad of shape where they need to be replaced. I would goto the bigger valve size. in doing that you would beable to keep stock vavle hieght. but i dont think you will need to.
to cheack seats get valve lapping compound and put it on the vavle and put it in the head and turn it several times. you should see a nice contact patch on the valve face.
stock guides are steal. bronze replcement might run as high as 200 and you will have to do a valve job.

justlearning

yeah if the valves and seats look okay i probably wont but i just paid for a set of the 081 heads and im waiting for them to ship this week end ill get the dia grinder...but what carbide bits do i need to look for a size and lenth would be great i know it will be a 1/4 inch shank though. also can anyone help me figure out the rpm controller i got the diagram and its not hard to assemble but im not familar w/ ac electric too well and when i look at acehardware.com i see that all the parts are different watt. and amp and such and im affraid all the parts wont work togather. thanks for all the help and if anyone has a pic of some ported 081 heads or good tips or hints to watch out for that differ from the sitting bull thread let me know.

vorgath

200 ??? For bronze valve guides ?

I have to look into that one ... since I recall tha tfor other cars they ran like hmmm 5-6 bucks a piece

Although... having them installed too hmmm well hmmm

vorgath

http://store.summitracing.com/defaul...=egnsearch.asp

justlearning

anyone care to help out on the carbide bits or the rpm controller thanks and which port and polish kit i need from summit there r two diff ones theres a deluxe and one that says port and polish kit for small block chevy.

vorgath

Someone postd a while back ... don't get the Summit Racing porting kit ... apparently it comes with only so and so many sanding drums ... while for the same price or less you can go to an industrial parts supply store and get at least twice the amount of sanding drums


I myself used the Dremel plus two real cheap carbide bits for the Ultimate TBI deal (still gotta rebuild and drop it in the engine) ... sure it'll be a bit tougher for the iron heads but... damn .... those carbide bits just chop the metal away .. I was covered in pieces after a few minutes so... saying that may be enough for your needs too


Let me know how much those heads will cost ya at a junkyard ... since I need to go and pick up a pair as well

vorgath

Always been curious as to why it's called port and "polish"


Since one shouldn't "polish" it more than "a wet 80 or 100 grit finish" .... has to do with the sublayer of air disapearing

justlearning

well i didnt get the heads at the yard i got them on here in the classifieds for 50 plus shipping which was a great deal to me....and i will be using an electric die grinder cause a dremel would take all year...and i think u need more than just drums too but not positive thats y i was askin...as far as the port and polish goes your right about the intake i belive but where the exaust exits u want it almost a chrome like finish i belive

88TATBI5.7

well a hade the heads hot tanked and guides installed. then i dida 3 angle valve jod and used swirll finished valves. total was $300. i did the valve job and bought the valves from summit for $100. 200 at the machine shop. i didnt work the heads them selves. they were done before i bought them. should flow pretty good. haven't ran it yet.

Casey_Butt

I just finished a nice port and polish job on a set of cast iron heads. I did it with a dremel ...took me just over three months ...real good for detail work in the tight spots though (short side radius, close to the seat, valve guide bosses). Ideally, I would have liked a die grinder for the big work and finish up with the dremel for the precision stuff.

justlearning

so u used a carbide bit in the dremel to do the whole thing man u got patience im getting a 25000 rpm electric die grinder from harbor freight for like 30 bucks and ill make a rpm controller if someone will help me pick out the parts i need and such and i also still need help on the other parts i talked about.

vorgath

Send me some info regarding the rpm controller ... I could use one for my angle grinder ... my newer one is OOC ... and the old one which is working runs at 11,000 rpm .. too fast for buffing the car's finish

justlearning

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...r&pagenumber=3

scroll down and it has a home drawn diagram and u just gotta buy the parts i know alot of people have made em im just not familar w/ ac electricity and know id probably buy the wrong parts knowing my luck

BMmonteSS

Wow a dremel, I used an old drill. It was big and bulky but it worked. I'll have to check into that 30$ one, that sounds right up my alley. I've tried using air, but my aircompressor just wouldn't keep up and it didn't seem to have the power of the drill. I would see if you could find the sanding drums at a supply house, if not the SA kit will work fine. Keep in mind a 45$ carbide cutter is really nice, but it cost alot. I wouldn't even wast your time polishing at all. The intake should have some ruffness to it, the turbulance at the wall will help keep the fuel suspended. On the exhaust you get carbon buildup and no amount of polishing is going to prevent it. Just by taking the cast finish down with a cartrige roll will be enough.

I guess I'm in the market for a set of heads too, my motor finally gave up the ghost, it's loosing oil pressure and burning too much oil. I'm just using if for short trips now till I get a motor built. I can't decide if I'm going to go with a set of ported stock heads, or pony up for some aftermarket heads.

justlearning

got any part numbers bmonte or an idea on the rpm controller??

justlearning

but as far as the die grinder goes check it out they have a web sight too i think its just harborfrieght.com or something like that dont know if i spelt frieght right...lol...

BMmonteSS

The drill I used didn't have a speed control, I was just carefull with the amount of pressure I used, then again the bits and rolls I was using weren't exactly cutting fast enough to need to slow the tool down any.

Also keep in mind you will HAVE TO get a valve job once your done porting, no way you'll grind on those heads for hours without ever nicking a seat. Just plan on it, I wouldn't take the time to install a set of heads without getting a valve job. The valve guides on the other hand can be expensive. Around 200 is about the going rate here. A valve job is only 100 bucks or so. If your guides are loose don't even bother putting them on. They will oblong the new seals in about 3000 miles and you'll be burning oil. Ask me how I know, I'm pretty sure thats where my quart every 1k miles is going. This is kinda where I'm at right now, 50$ for junk yard heads + 300 for valve job and guides + 100 bucks to get the seats and guides machined for any kind of decent lift and your looking at 450 bucks add in 120 bucks for good springs and retainers( I already have them) and a set of new valves and your sitten at 650. A set of pro-topline iron lightings are going for 850 shipped. They'll make a good 30-50 hp more than a set of ported heads. Then again I'm wanting to stay under 1600 for my entire rebuild.......decisions, decisions

justlearning

well i probably wont get real aggresive around the seats mabey even put a small peice of electrical tape over the seat itself or somethin i dont know for sure yet....and the heads r only supposed to have like 80000 miles on em so hopefully they will be okay but we will have to see.

BMmonteSS

It's not the agressive part that will make you mess up, it's the putting the bit in and out of the throat that will cause you to nick the seat, also just rubbing the shaft of the bit on the seat is enough to casue problems, serously a bad seat will pretty much negate any gains from porting, and possible keep the motor from running. Don't risk it, put some money in the budget to at least get the seats reground. Another little trick that can be worth some flow, is to have them put a 30 deg back cut on the valves. This works better on the exhaust side for some reason. GM did this on the vortec heads, and it can be worth as much as 5-10 cfm, which is alot considering the cost.

justlearning

yeah ive been reading and i can see how a three angle valve job or grinding the valve to 30' may help but wouldnt the seat have to me ground to 30 also if i were to grind the valve to 30?? and thanks for the tip on hitting ill try and do my best to wait till im pass the seat to turn the grinder off and on.