BMmonteSS

When you get a vavle job, both the valve and the head are reground. The heads get the 3-angle job, the valve just gets a 45 deg cut. The whole point of the extra 30 deg cut on the valves and having more than just a 45 on the head is that it removes material that gets in the way at low lift numbers, you start moving air sooner so you will flow more air for every valve opening event. You also have to remember that you cross this point twice every time you open and close the valve. Thats why you need to look at more than peak flow numbers when you look at a set of heads. This is also why vortecs do so well, they don't have stellar flow numbers, but they do flow very well at low lift. You have treat flow numbers like a dyno graph. Sure peak numbers are impressive, but it's the area "under the curve" that actually gets the job done.

The reason I harp on getting a valve job so much is that I've had to pull the heads off of my engine twice for various reasons relating to bad valve sealing. I'm the king of cheap, heck the motor thats in my car now only has 500$ in the long block. LOL I pretty sure I have more than that in the headers, exhaust, intake, and cam.

justlearning

lol yeah i got some valve lapping compound im gonna check w/ to make sure the are seating good if they are ill probably just get the port and polish finished and when i take them in to have them clean and manafluxe tested then ill check and see how much it would cost may be outta reach at the moment though i still got alot of stuff yet to get and i really just want these to try my hand w/ porting but i wont get carried away it being my first time but even stock these should kill my stock swirl ports as far as performance goes...but thanks for all the tips so far keep em commin if u think of more or know about those parts i need or if u get that rpm controller built

kdrolt

Dewey316 has stock unported swirl port heads (187 casting) on his 305. He writes:

He's run 14.5 @ 94 mph and dyno'd 208 rwhp @ 4600 rpm & 272 rw tq @ 3100 rpm, both naturally aspirated. His thread appears here.

If the swirl port heads were that bad, Dewey316's dyno results and track data wouldn't be that good. Any porting of the heads would have resulted in better dyno and track data, assuming reasonable ECM work. So don't dismiss the swirl port heads especially for a budget job because they aren't the reason why TBI cars are slow from the factory. The factory TBI cars are slow because of the poor factory exhaust and the extremely mild cam.

BMmonteSS

I'll agree that they really aren't that bad but, can you honestly suggest them if you were able to buy either swirl port or non swirl port heads at the same price? What if he wants to go to a bigger cam later on? Won't they restrict his top end power compared to other readily available factory heads? I can't get it through my head that an extra 180ish degree turn is going to do air flow any good at high rpm. Sure it'll build torque down low. 9 times out of 10 your going to be able to smoke the tires anywhere below 30 mph, so trading some bottom torque for a broader more usable power curve through out the RPM range that you would actually use at the strip seems like a good idea to me. In his situation, even if he was only gaining 10HP with the non-swirl heads, why not take that HP?

justlearning

yeah bmonte is right i picked up the heads for 50 dollars plus 50 shipping and i really wanna try my first home port/polish...i cant have the cart undrivable very long so im gonna do the work on those while still driving it and doin a rough chip before i ever break loose the first bolt....and im also gonna install a cam anyway so y not put on a set of a lil better heads?? ive seen some good numbers and flow data on the swirl ports also but if i gotta buy some to work on while driving it then y not keep the 081s...and ive also been told that i wont lose any torque off the line w/ 081 but ill just see more of a gain up top...heres what i plan hopefully goin on in a week or so if everything goes okay.

Heads: home ported 081s w/ stock valves *unless they need replaced*

Cam: comp cams K kit part number CCA-K12-210-2 or CCA-K12-235-2 (havent made up mind yet) from www.summitracing.com

Manifold: Edelbrock performer tbi probably (and will mostlikely clean up and bore tb openings a lil bit )

Headers: Headman Lts w/ custom 2.5 inch y and 3 inch cat back minus the cat(already got the cat back)

TBI: ultimate tbi mods

Chip: pre tune so its drivable when everything is on then better tunning after break in and chance to data log and bunch of help from u guys this will be the hardest part as i forsee it.

havent worked out the little details like gaskets and such and none of this but the heads r set in stone at this point so if anyone see flaws or has a better idea let me know!!!!

justlearning

then after this ill save again for some suspension stuff sub frame connectors etc... and probably a transkit of some sort.

oh and im having my rear end built at the moment w/ all performance parts (eaton and Richmond w/ 3.23 gears out back)

justlearning

no one has any comments or suggestions for that combo i listed im currently saving for or putting togather

Casey_Butt

I think you'll really like the shift kit - I put the TransGo kit in last year and it was an immediate noticable improvement. My car is a T-top and I car feel her flex a little now ...I have subframe connectors but I'm holding off putting them on until the engine, trans and exhaust work is completed - I don't want them in the way.

I also upgraded from an open diff. 2.73 to a 3.42 posi a couple of weeks ago. I put on an aluminum rear end cover/girdle, solid pinion spacer, aluminum panhard bar, aluminum driveshaft and polyurethane transmission mount at that time as well. Those mods, along with the shift kit have made a massive difference in the performance of the car. It's shocked me how much performance can be gotten out of the drivetrain without touching the motor (but that's happening this fall ).

justlearning

oh yeah i will get a shift kit or transkit too but that will be after i do that stuff i will also get subframe connectors hopefully soon after i do the engine work but im like u and wanna make sure i know where my lts and custom y will go...

anyone else have any opinions on the parts i listed do u think that cam is aggresive enough or too aggresive??

88TATBI5.7

i would go with a cam like this one CCA-K12-210-2. again thats not a roller lifter cam. you can get that kit if you dont want to use roller lifters but i would get a cam like CCA-08-501-8 or if you want a little bigger CCA-07-502-8.
both cost $245 for just the cam. another $100 valve springs, and another 75 for a timing chain. or a full kit like what you looking at CCA-K08-501-8 or CCA-K08-502-8 is $675 for everything but new rockers. your choise but i would keep the roller lifters they are good for a few extra hp on the same grind as a flat tappet.

justlearning

well im glad u said somethin i thought i was looking at a roller cam but i didnt pay too much att. i guess but i would of called comp cams to make sure first. yeah ill probably get the k kit though so i know everything is matched and ready to go other than the rockers. i think i should be able to use the rokers off my old heads since this wont make any crazy power.

Casey_Butt

justlearning,

I think you should keep in mind that when you get above 210 degrees at 0.05 intake duration (with a tighter than 112 lobe separation) then you're going to start making it harder on yourself to tune the PROM. Also keep in mind that the power range on a 305 is going to be about 600 rpm higher than listed for those cams because they're referencing a 350 motor. I think you should be looking at something in the 205-210 @ 0.05 range on the intake and get as much lift as your heads will support.

A cam in that range (with other parts to match) can let your 305 be strong to about 6000 rpm and probably peak around 5000-5500 rpm (depending on the lift). 6000 rpm is a good cut-off for these cars. After that you'll run into lifter pump-up and other nasty stuff like broken cranks A cam under 210 @ 0.05 will also give you plenty of low-end torque and throttle response, so you won't need to go with a higher stall torque converter or anything (although a mild one might not hurt). Start getting up in the top end and you'll run into many problems, from needing a stronger bottom end to pulse-width problems with the TBI system. A 305 is a beautiful 5.0 liter street motor, but don't try to make it a high-revver by getting a big cam - the 305 was designed to be strong in the mid-rpm range ...and that's ideal for the street.

If your heads have screw-in or pinned rocker studs and have been machined to handle higher lifts then go up as far as 0.500" lift on the intake. If you don't have screw-in or pinned studs stay under 0.470" lift or you will probably pull your studs. Stock 305 heads, when ported, usually flow best at 0.42" to 0.45" lift so your cam should ideally be in the 0.45" to 0.5" lift range.

I've heard good things about single plane intake manifolds for these cars. Apparently, the TBI doesn't suffer from the same low-end torque loss that single plane intake manifolds paired to carbs do. The only problem I see with a single plane is that the runners are usually short and very large diameter. That will result in slower velocity of mixture at lower rpms, and the gas falling out of suspension. I think a large plenum area combined with longer, narrower runners than on most single planes would theoretically be better. Remember your stock heads will have fairly narrow intake runners anway. So my leaning is towards a good dual-plane manifold with the plenum wall cut down. That will give a large plenum area under the TBI but also longer, narrower runners and a faster mixture velocity at lower rpms. You should be strong from 1500 to 5500 or more with that set-up (including appropriate cam, heads, exhaust, TBI, etc). Remember, this is a street motor - you don't need an intake capable of 7000 rpms or anything ...aim for a peak between 5000 - 5500 rpms max.

BMmonteSS

Casey is right about the cam, displacement will change the way a certain cam acts in a motor. I use the rule of thumb that for every 50 ci larger or smaller than a 350 I add or subtract 10 deg of duration. Most people suggest a cam in the 215-220 range for most street engines. So something in the 205-215 range will work well. Keep in mind that a cam within this range and a wider lobe sep will make tuning much easier. I would shoot for a 112 to 114 lobe sep. You also want to use a split duration cam (more duration on the exh.) This will help to make up for the crappy exhaust port that most SBC heads have. Your going to help out your intake to exhaust ratio (I/E ration) a bit with porting. It seems like it's easier to make gains on the exhaust side with porting.

Kdrolt and I are having a nice conversation about the merits of SP heads via PM. Don't take the above SP vs no-SP debate too seriously, in the grand scheme of things having SP or non-SP heads isn't as important as having a combo that works together and is well tuned. SP heads are NOT a huge hinderence to performance, I hope my post above didn't come across as such. I have a friend that had a set on a stout 350 and it was quicker than my car, which runs high 13's......so making power with them isn't the debate, it's whether or not they are a better street head compared to othe stock SBC heads.

justlearning

thanks so much guys thats exactly the kinda info i was looking for since all the books and magizines i have plenty of mainly tell u what works good or what a 350 sbc wants not a 305...and yes i will now find a new cam and i deff. need tuning to be as easy as possibly since i know still close to nothing bout it even after ready the articles provided here. thanks again.

88TATBI5.7

ok so then the cam kit you want is CCA-K08-500-8 and it is $630. again you dont need the full kit. but thats up to you. i bought the full kit because i bought a bare block and heads while building my engine. anyway good luck.

justlearning

well im thinking about not getting the full kit cause as im reading more and more i can resuse the stock lifters and just get a cam, springs, timing chain, and retainer and seals

justlearning

here are some cams ive been looking at on summit can one of u guys let me know if these look good and which one would best suit me for street driving (retaining good idle and vacume)

ERS-E119826

CRN-104225

CCA-12-465-8

CCA-08-465-8

and am i even looking at the right kind (hydrolic roller tappet) or do i need the mechanical roller tappet kind to resuse my stock lifters?? also if u guys can recomend the springs and other parts i listed above or that i would need to make this work that would be great and if u guys see something even better suited for my application let me know thanks guys i really appreciate all of this and i would try and figure all this out myself but im deff. not experieced in these things so i want something i know will work and i understand if u cant or dont wanna check it out thats fine. but thanks for all the help so far and any thats to come this is invaluable to me and will be even more so when u help set up a rough tune w/ me and help give advice on tunning after break in !

BMmonteSS

The first cam would work well, you could go with one of the extreme cams, but I think the erson cam would be a better daily driver and be easier to tune. I would stay away from the compu cam, they are designed to be as close to stock as possible so the car will run without chip tuning, you would be leaving alot on the table with it.

The bad news is that none of these cams (other than the compu cam) would work without at least paying very carefull attention to retainer to seal clearance, or having them machined for clearance. I rounded the lobes off of 2 cams because every one said (including my machinist) that you could get away with .480 lift no problem on stock heads. I was only running .468 and was kissing the seal every time the valve opened when it should have had .050 clearance. This exercise will be good for you, and you'll learn alot about setting up your valve train and selecting a spring that will give you the seat and open pressures you need.

justlearning

then how much does it cost to have them machined roughly or is there a cam thats close to as good that wont require extra machining and as far as the springs ive never selected any before so i wouldnt even know where to begin thats y i said that its either trust u guys or try and call summit or something and ask them...which they r very good at looking up parts and customer service but i dont know about the actually specs and whats required part.

justlearning

i found this cam kit to go w/ it off erson web site but cant find where to buy it i checked summit and no luck heres the number E811017

88TATBI5.7

i couldnt find that cam kit so i cant comment about it. You need to figue what cam you want and then contact the make and ask what springs they recomend. you dont need to get the exact springs, but you want the seat and open pressures to be close maybe a little higher. you just dont want the springs to be to soft thats what causes valve float prematurly. im pretty sure the spring busses on stock heads is 1.25". when i said $100 for springs was the high side. figure 50 to 100. I saw vette springs on ebay for like $35. those might be to strong for the cams you want but it is an option. you dont need to pay top dollar for everything.
comp cams are like stck cams but they produce more hp on the same grind as the stock cam. that is becase of the shape of the lobe. anyway hope this helps

justlearning

yeah summit had the springs out of that kit just not the whole kit and they were only like 45

justlearning

okay guys getting ready to place the order on the die ginder and carbide bits im at http://www.carbidebur.com and need to know which ones i need ive ready that a good tree shaped one thats rounded and a cylinder shapped on will work and u need one to be a long shaft one if someone could help figure out which ones i need like what taper and size and wich is the one i need the 6 inch shaft for that would be great the heads r supposed to arrive on the 14 so id like to get this show on the road....thanks

and if anyone finds that kit i listed above please let me know ive been looking and cant seem to find it for sale ive put in an email to them but who knows when or if they will respond. thanks again fellas!!

justlearning

what about this cam its a stock replacement for like a 95 lt1 and is it showing what the lift and such would be w/ 1.6 roller rockers?? http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...pe=146&ptset=A
then i found these stock replacement springs to go w/ it it says 8 count intake and the other is 8 count exaust but it dosent say the lbs pressure or anything what do u guys think bad idea or no
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...pe=173&ptset=A
will these springs work in my heads im getting or just the lt1 heads?? sorry for asking questions that may seem stupid to u guys but i have no experience in this but i am wanting to do this very bad and ill have help installing

justlearning

sorry guys i know im flooding this post w/ questions before i get answers to the previous ones and i still want those answers too.... but what do u think about this cam it says 4x4 cam but the specs look good as far as staying under 110 sep at .050 and still has better caracteristics than stock .458/.458 int/ext but it also says not computer controlled...
heres the part number on it for summit.com

CCA-08-409-8

would that one be hard to tune and would it be a good choice for me for a daily driver but still improved performance?? and i shouldnt have to have the heads machined for clearance on this one should i??

justlearning

anyone able to help w/ the last couple of questions?? im tryin to get this all ploted out so that i can start purchases and i really need to know what bits to order cause my heads will be here the 14th and i just placed the order for the grinder and rpm controller last night and ill be ready to start porting as soon as i get the bits ordered!! thanks guys and gals

BMmonteSS

For bits I would look for something in the 3/8" range in a "tree" or rounded shape. The long shank would be nice. You don't really need a ton of different bits if your going to be using cartrige rolls to finish up. Just use the carbide bits to do your ruff cut and finish up with a 80 grit roll.

That 4x4 cam seems pretty close to stock LT1 specs, you may be able to save a ton of money and pic up a used LT1 cam off of ebay. I think most go for less than 100$. That will keep you from needing machine work on the heads, and it will most likely start right up and run which you seem pretty worried about. You'll still need a good bit of tuning to make any kind of power. This may be your best route for now, untill you feel more comfortable with tuning. You'll be able to pick up a good bit of power with a bigger cam, but you can always do this later.....well only if you go ahead and get the heads set up for it.

Edit: I just did a search for "LT1 camshaft" and came up with 3 cams, the most expensive one was 30$ and there is one still at a 1$. You could probably also pick up a set of LT4 springs pretty cheap too.

P.S. Notice how I added additional info via an "edit" instead of posting again. Just a hint for the newbie.

justlearning

k i was on ebay last night and the only lt1 cams i saw where new ones that r more lift than the lt1 cam but ill look again tonight when i get home...i just hope they dont have too much wear on them...what about those springs i put up for the lt1 cam they are less than 20 bucks for all intake and exaust springs but id have to get retainers and such also id assume...thanks for looking and ill order those bits ASAP now that i know which to get ill get a long radius tree like u said then probably a short cylinder shape one too. ill let u guys know how i come out but if any more suggestions keep em comming and ill also post progress pics ill start w/ the one of the heads after they get here on the 14th before they r even dissasembled. thanks again.

BMmonteSS

Make sure you search for "LT1 camshaft" just LT1 cam didn't bring any of these up, which may increase your chances of picking these up for pocket change. I wouldn't ever buy a used cam if it was a flat tappet, rollers are different. They are a harder steel and there should technically not be any friction between the lifters and the lobes, so going used is usually a safe bet with roller cams. You need to read over the LT1 cam sticky at the top of the forum, it should awnser any of your questions as to which springs and cams to get. The spings you listed didn't have any specs so I couldn't tell you if they would work or not.

justlearning

well then that would of been the problem your a good thinker thank u much!!

justlearning

dont the lt1s have 1.6 rockers and if thats the case then my stock rockers wouldnt allow for the true lift of the cam....am i correct or do the lt1s have the same ratio rockers as my car? i would of done an edit but it dosent really go w/ the last thing i said so i just posted again sorry for creating clutter!

BMmonteSS

Nope, they don't have 1.6's. Check out the LT1 FAQ at the top of the forum, lots of good info....actually I would bet it's ALL the info known about the LT1 cams.

justlearning

k i will read it right now check out this cam if u could and tell me if it looks to be in good shape i think i see a little wear on that gear but not sure if its bad or not http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/93-LT...spagenameZWDVW

thanks
John

i hope the wear isnt too bad cause i placed a bid on it but not very high so even if im not out too much

and im reading the lt1 sticky and i just read the 93 lt1 cam dosent have quite as much lift on the exaust side but not by much but it says 117 lobe seperation wont this kill my bottom end some? cause thats about all it seems like l03 r good for is the torque down low...well back to reading and im burning up this edit feature now..lol thanks

justlearning

k while reading the lt1 sticky i called comp cams to see what springs they recomended and they gave me 26915 for springs 787 for the retainers, and 4786 for the locators or seats...prices r outrageous for those parts 159, 59, and 40 man i know i can get somethin a little friendlier on the wallet. ive heard k-motion and z28 springs r cheap and known to break and demolish the engine so whats a cost effective spring if the cam is a 93 w/ .450 .450 and will it fit w/ all other stock pieces (retainers, seats, locking pins, etc...) or should i get those parts too. thanks and back to ready i saw a part number in one of the posts somewhere in a link in the sticky but havent heard anything else about that one.

BMmonteSS

Looks good, most of the time if the distributor eats into the gear it will wear the teath pretty thin quick. Nice thing about LT1's is that they dissy gear has never seen wear because they don't have distributors!
EDIT: I just realized that LT1's do use the gear on the cam, it drives the oil pump through short stub that acts like the bottom half of the dissy.

I've broken the cheap z-28 springs, not from pushing them too hard, just from high cycle fatigue. Which means they just had bad metalurgy. I also turned a set soft. They had 105 lbs on the seat when new and they went down to 70 lbs within 30,000 miles. The broken set only lasted 20,000 miles. They are just cheap. Get some name brand springs or good stock GM springs. The LT4 springs that come in the hot cam kits are great and cheap. I think GM sells the springs and retainers in a nice kit.

justlearning

k do i need new seats and lock pins or are the old ones fine for the job what about these springs 249-981-16 i dug up the part number from one of the threads in the lt1 sticky i assume these would work i think they are what im gonna get. and i just got an answer from the guy on ebay i asked if it was a f/y body cam or a b/d body cam and luckily it was a y body cam out of a 93 vette hes selling the rockers too but i dont even know if they would work on my heads i think the stock rockers should do as long as they look to be in good shape.

ive been reading performance and rebuilding books lately and it always says to check for wear w/ a caliper or dial indicator but never says anything about what the normal one should consist of does anyone have a link that has these type of measurements for like valve stems, rockers etc... and how to take the measurements (like from what points)

justlearning

k fellas these are the last questions i got for the time being so bbmonte or anyone if u can come through for me this one last time for the moment that would be great...i just needed to know if those springs will work good and what other parts assosiated w/ the springs i would need or if stock pieces will work..(retainers, seats, caps, locking pins) thanks so much u guys have answered all the questions and changed my mind to save me money on the heads, and cam and also parts assosiated to preparing heads.

next thread you may see some time in near future will deal w/ intake, fuel injectors and pump if needed probably so, and then tunning but not till i get into the heads some w/ some home porting.

BMmonteSS

Those springs will work fine, and you can reuse all of your stock retainers, and locks. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by seats and caps, but you won't need them. Just swap the CC springs for your stockers and check your clearances and your good to go.

justlearning

the seats that the springs sit on and the caps that go on top of them is what i was reffering too cause i thought those spring may have been a diff. diameter or somethin....

UPDATE: i just got the heads in and opened them up and they look good but havent disasembled yet to check valves etc.... i will dissasemble and take some gunk to them them get started as soon as my porting stuff arrives.

Thanks
John