Thirdgenz

does anybody know of a supercharger for TBI? any info would be very helpful. thanks

SchwarzCamaroRS

power adders group might know, theres been a couple of designs ive heard of, but mostly TPI...

Cadillac

Whipple

I think this one will fit. Good luck affording it.

Benm109

There's no direct bolt-on SC for the 3rd gen TBI motors, but there are some TBI superchargers for the full-size trucks which can be modified to work. Can't remember the companies that make them, though.

Cadillac

~cough~

Whipple does.

~cough~

Dewey316

They do not, they make it for the TBI trucks. Which means the computer chip that comes with it, is for the 747 ECM, not the 8746 ECM that the f-body cars use. Which brings me to the hardest part of the whole thing. Making it run. You will need chip turning and an FMU to get in the ball-park. Converting to a computer that has >1bar map capability is a better, but more time consuming, and more difficult option.

Cadillac

I stand corrected.

sp63

dont bother with the whipple guy. he is a dick. my emaisl with him went something like this:

will THAT (this post) s/c work on 3rd gen f-bodies?

no. its for the trucks.

well the truck tbi si basically the same blah blah blah: why exactly wont it work?

no. i wont sell the kit to a 3rd gen f body . it is carb elgal it is made for the trucks.

oh.. well good thing i have a truck.

we require a vin. i wont sell the kit to a 3rd gen camaro.

your really trying to avoid a sale eh? it shouldnt be to hard for me to go write down a vin...

I WILL NOT SELL THE TRUCK TO A CAR THE KIT ISNT MADE FOR.

well do you realize that the 3rd gen tbi market is ravenous for a supercharger? all you would have to do is modify the truck kit slightly..

no.



so screw him. im never gonna end up with a whipple supercharger.

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

http://www.wynjammer.com/ALM1115/Bac...he_Future.html

Looks like it would be easily adaptable.

Cadillac

Intriguing! Know anyone with a TBI and one of these?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

procharger offers a truck TBI unit. 1988-1995 unit #1gd-212-sci
8-9 boost 60% HP gain alledged.

JohnBlazeLTZ

Hello...

Long time reader first time poster here on 3rd Gen...

Vortech does make a supercharger kit for a TBI...I think it has been discontinued but it is still avaibale from Muscle Motors...818.888.7778.

It can also be obtained online at other places but if you want one...run out and get one because they won't be around for long.

I just got one off of ebay for a TBI truck...it's an A-Trim but it can be serviced by Vortech for 900 bucks and upgraded to an S-Trim. I think it'll be pretty cool.

This is what it looks like...



Although I haven't installed it... here''s my thread about it from NAISSO...

http://www.impalaclub.com/naisso/for...TOPIC_ID=26850

The kit is not made anymore...but you should be able to get it somewhere.

Let me know if I can help...

John

stuckatcuse

I have that.

Cadillac

Welcome to the forum John! I'll be interested to see how you progress.

Oh really? Tell us more.

stuckatcuse

JohnBlazeLTZ

Thanks Cadi.

I am searching for info the best I can. I have a great deal of things planned...I just got to make sure I can pull it off. From what I've been told...this will be a first for a Caprice TBI car. If all goes well...I hope to build up a motor and upgrade the SC unit to an S-Trim and see if I can hit a much higher HP. I have a "Building SBC TBI engine" thread started at NAISSO and I wandered over here from time to time to get info...but since I'm not an F-Body guy...I was hesitant to register. I'm used to being an odd man out so...I should fit in fine if you all will have me.

stuckatcuse...

I didn't know that Procharger set up for TBI! Nice job in the install. It looks like it is a great set up. What kind of tuning thngs did you have to do to it to get it to run proper? What the HP rating now? Have you dyno'd it yet???? Do tell...Do tell. I have been looking for TBI Supercharger guys with a story to tell.

I am in the process of rounding up all the parts for my endeavor. The cool thing about my kit is that it comes with a computer controled supplementary fuel injection kit. I figure that I should get a better quality fuel pump, new injectors, an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and the necessary gauges needed to monitor the system.

Let me know if I left any thing out...

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

There are several guys over at www.454ss.com that are using the Vortech S/C on TBI'ed 454's.

You may be able to get some info there also.

I've had my Vortech YS trim for 2 years and still don't have it installed

Trying to get it into the 12's N/A first and cut my teeth on tuning it N/A before jumping into boost.

Looks like my ride may get a heart transplant before the Vortech goes on, but we'll see.

Welcome

JohnBlazeLTZ

va454ss...

That sounds cool...let me shoot right on over there then.

Thanks

I've heard tuning a TBI for an SC'r can be difficult...that's why I am doing my home work before I just run out to the garage and start installing the blower.

stuckatcuse

Thanks for the comments.

Sean

JohnBlazeLTZ

I am prepared for a chip tune once I get it going...I knew I would be needing one of those eventually.

I have a good shop I can go to for tuning help when the time comes. I am hoping to get it up and running by myself...and the help of two friends before I consult a tuner.

At this point I am not planning on getting different injectors just new ones...and uping the fuel pressure a few psi...then getting a higher flow fuel pump out back.

I don't think I'll be needing an FMU because the Vortech kit that I got has a computer controlled supplementary fuel injection system that gets installed under the TBI...it looks like a TBI spacer plate with injectors on the front of it. It even has it's own fuel pump. From what I've read over on the 454ss site that va454ss suggested...the guys over there say that fuel injection kit is ideal for a TBI supercharger. The kit along with the SC unit itself... is totally brand new...never installed on anything...I got quite lucky.

Here's the installation manual online...you will need Adobe Acrobat to read it...it discusses the fuel injection kit on page 6...

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/...im.pdf#search='TBI%20Vortech%20Supercharger'

JB

89C2500

JB,

Regarding FMUs.....the Vortech supplementary injection system is a type of FMU. Think of an FMU as any device that adds fuel under boost, whether additional injector(s) or a fuel pressure regulator that raises fuel pressure under boost.

The key thing here is that the FMU was designed to work with a particular vehicle and it's STOCK engine. Using the kit with another vehicle, or the correct vehicle with engine/intake/exhaust mods, will typically mean the FMU will not be calibrated correctly for that combination. That's why Whipple told 'sp63' they wouldn't sell a kit for a vehicle it was not designed for.

Ok, that being said, can you swap a kit to another vehicle?....ABSOLUTELY! Will you require substantial tuning to get the "transplanted" kit to run properly/safely?.....ABSOLUTELY!

I'm running a Whipple system on the vehicle it was designed for, BUT nothing is stock. Headers, exhaust, intake, TBI, heads, cam, pistons, tranny, torque converter are all non-stock. I tried using Whipple's FMU but could not get it to work well using Whipple's "stock" settings(way too lean). Looking back, most of my issues were due to lack of tuning experience and trying to tune without a WBO2.

Anyhow, I ended up removing the FMU and swapping out the 747 ECU for a 749 and 2-bar MAP sensor. After purchasing a WBO2(and figuring out an oil consumption issue), tuning has been coming along nicely. The WBO2 was the best investment I've made. The worst was using a NBO2 and thinking it was "close enough".....it wasn't. My learning curve has been HUGE! I've burned over 200 chips and I'm still figuring stuff out.

FWIW, I'm also running a Holley 670 TBI (newer-style Delphi injectors) with 30psi of fuel pressure. That roughly equates to 100lb/hr per injector. The 749 ECU controls extra fuel requirements under boost by widening the base injector pulse. Also, I'm pushing 9+ psi of boost. Another couple hundred chips and I should have this puppy tuned close enough!

Good luck with your project!

Brent

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

You could use this as an alternative to the "black box" that came with the Vortech extra injectors

http://www.sdsefi.com/eic.html

Scroll down to the bottom of the page and read the install instructions.

JohnBlazeLTZ

Wow dude... that is pretty trick. I think that looks a like a great peice really. Is it for any car or just imports? It would seem that it IS for any car so...it does look promising.

I like it.

Do any of you guys run a MSD BTM ignition? That's the kit I have been looking at.

89c2500...

The wide band is the only way to go. That's why I'd like to get it running in stock form and take a few pulls with it...get some readings and see what its doing.

About chips...that is one thing I am finding more and more about. I have been running across articles about chip tuning and it seems pretty complicated. I've never been good with numbers and it seems pretty tough to me. I have been looking at DFI systems and talking to tuners about what kind of tune a boosted engine could need. It's a tough call. I wish I knew the answer but it'll be more importent later if I decide to go even farther with it.

Right now I just hope I don't crush my engine on accident by messing something up...which I hope won't happen!!!

~

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

Yeah. you could use it for the injectors you already have. This way you have some tunability. Parts don't know if they're being used on domestic or ****

stuckatcuse

So... you've got the 749 to work with factory injectors eh?

89C2500

Yep....well, I'm not running the "factory" injectors but the Holley Delphi TBI injectors. No reason BB stock TBI injectors wouldn't work. I swapped to the Holley 670 tbi unit before using the 749 and haven't put the factory Rochester TBI back in. The Holley/Delphi injectors seem to be handling 30psi with no problems.

Just had to wire up the 749 as it was used in a Turbo Sunbird. This enables both injector drivers in peak-and-hold mode. I also had to open the CAL56 line off the calpak to set the injector drivers to fire every other DRP.

That's the hardware side. Lot of tweaking with the $58 code to properly run TBI versus PFI.

89C2500

Using a MSD BTM and the SDEFI EIC would provide a rough equivalent to using the 749 ecu....control of timing & fueling under boost. It seems to be a good combo if not going DFI or oem 749.

irocbirdbuilder

I have a buddy from my shop that has a 89 tbi truck, i have popped the hood on his truck and my rs next to each other and compared and heres what i've figured out, he has teh vortech on his. The mounting and pulley/accessory from his truck to my camaro is identical ie, pw steering, alternator, a/c averythign is in the same locations, however the intake tube runs from the blower across teh top front of the motor to the pass side with a cone filter. WEll on a truck there is more clearance between the motor and hood, not so on a camaro. So i think if you got the kit for the trucks it will work....however the intake piping would have to be cut and rewelded to an area with clearance.


What i have been thinking is if i got this, ran a custom intake pipe above the tbi enclosure (4" cowl no problems) and fabbed up a "box" that i could enclose 2 cone filters against the opening of the cowl so i would have fresh air To the supercharger. I wont do it until i swap the bottom end though

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

That's my plan also. Plus I already have the benefit of P4. The code I'm using references a vac regulator and has extended VE tables to 6400.

I upgraded from the S trim to the YS trim when I bought my kit. I knew there would be no way the supplied auxiliary injectors would be able to keep up.

So, my auxiliary fueler will be this (that I got a steal on used):

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mpfi_bb.html

The kit I acquired also has the 29 lb injectors.

JohnBlazeLTZ

Hey guys..sorry I haven't posted for a little while...I have been really busy here it work lately.

I don't really know what some of tthe terms you guys are using are...sorry.

I was just planning on using the Vortech TBI Supplementary fuel injection kit with a MSD BTM ignition...

Is there any set backs to this set up on a stock TBI 2 bolt 350 Caprice with a Vortech A-Trim???

The A-Trim from what I understand is the weakest blower Vortech offfered.

Which in my mind is perfect because I'm not 100% sure of what I am doing...or if I'm gonna blow the motor!!!

I'm wondering how much fuel the Supplementary fuel injection kit from an A-Trim will spray??? I know they still offer a SQ Trim for a 88-95 350 TBI truck...the SQ Trim is the next step up...(an S-Trim with the Quiet set up on it...hence SQ-Trim.) If I get the blower upgraded later to an S-Trim...will the SFI kit push enough fuel for it as it would for the A-Trim????? I imagine it would right??? I think it would run out if I went to a YS trim or something totally nuts....

~

What kind of parts have you guys got to prepare for the blower???

Thanks,

JB

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

I would contact Vortech. Don't mention what you're using it on.

Just tell them the kit you have and its for a truck. Ask if the auxilliary injector system for the A trim will feed the S trim.

I had no luck getting flow rates of the injectors in the aux system when I talked to them. Good luck!

JohnBlazeLTZ

I have spoke to Vortech a little bit...

That was the one question I didn't ask...I'll have to call them back and make another inquiry.

If this set up will work...I am going to run it stock for a while...then later on...I hope to plan an engine build up that includes the supercharger.

I am leaning toward a 4 bolt block...a forged crank...
hyperneumatic pistons and shot peened connecting rods to strengthen the lower end as much as possible.

The thing I am curious about is whether or not Vortec heads can be used in a SC'r application. I have read that they can't be. So...I am planning to get some AFR's or something close to the same quality. I have been reading a lot about Llyod Elliot and am impressed by his work.

There is a guy on ebay that has a business called XtremeFI that specializes in TBI building and is currecntly selling a 360hp TBI, Vortech heads, GMPP intake manifold w/ ZZ4 cam and a tuned chip for 2799.99.

My idea is to build an engine like that...then add the blower to add at least another 100hp for a total of 460hp. Ideally...I would like to push about 400 hp or more with the blower.

I would like a rollar camshaft that is matched to a supercharger and heads that are flowed for the power adder also.

z71stroker

I want what this dude has .....

http://www.superchargersonline.com/f...?TOPIC_ID=3850

Cadillac

Whoa... that is cool. Does the ducting from the supercharger to the Throttle body go under the pulleys and around to the top?

stuckatcuse

It goes out the inner fender, under the front of the car to the intercooler (mounted just aft and inferior to the front bumper) then back up the passenger side.

Cadillac

Now you really got me interested. Intercooler with a supercharger?

That is obviosuly not an F-body (guessing a pickup) but still. What kind of gains did you see with that? I'm also guessingthe cost is somewhat prohibitive.

Curious,

~C

JohnBlazeLTZ

The ProCharger comes with an intercooler I believe...with a Vortech system...you have to buy a kit....or...you could just have one made too. Paxton and Powerdyne both have intercooler kits...knda like Ram-Air on a supercharger...only a lot better!!!

~

I actually want to try to duct a Ram-Air kit to my supercharger. I have the Sun Coast Ram air hood and I would like to use the popular Impala SS RAISS cold air kit to a 90* bent air tube connected to the SupaCharga'.

By the way it looks...I should be able to do it no problem...hopefully!!!

stuckatcuse

Yeah intercoolers are cool. Someone adapted the corvette intercoolers for a 3rd gen in the power adder forum.

JohnBlazeLTZ

An intercooler will allow a cooler charge of air and then the SupaCharga' can get the PSI bumped up a bit higher...very cool...

I don't know how I would get on for my car....The Impala SS one's are for an LT1 based motor.

stuckatcuse

You've got to be careful with that line of reasoning though...
The power it takes to build boost is huge. If you lose a few psi thru the intercooler, then you need to crank up the boost (smaller pulley), this in turn draws more from the engine, creates a warmer charge etc.

In general yes, with an intercooler you can run more boost, but there will be a point of diminishing returns. The largest advantage an intercooler provides is the ability to run more timing for a given boost level (cooler charge), which will result in more power for a given boost level.

JohnBlazeLTZ

Oh yeah your totally right...you can only go so far with an intercooler before it doesn't do anything at all...

I can't worry about an intercooler right now...I need to get it on and running correctly 1st. lol...

I was just gonna pipe the cold air intake to a RAISS intake...



...it shouldn't be too hard because the TBI intake tube on a truck runs from the SupaCharga'...oover the motor...then over to the passenger fender.

I wouldn't run it to the passenger fender...I would just do a 90* bend over the T-Stat housing... then run it straight forward to the RAISS opening you see in the picture...

This is just an idea I had for getting cold air to the SC'r for my TBI 350 car.



In this pic it shows that there SHOULD be enough room between the alternator bracket and the tensioner to duct a pipe through to the RAISS .