tanager11

Sounds like you made some good progress.....wicked!!!!

I am watching this one closely since my set-up is almost identical....the only difference is that mine is currently burried in the garage (Dammed Canadian winters!!!!) :-)...but hopefully by April I can start tinkering again.....Oh do I HATE snow!

Good Stuff....happy to hear you are making some progress!!!
Dave

Dewey316

Jon, the traveling tuner.

Actualy I think i'm going to be in Austin sometime in June.

z71stroker

I'm in san antonio, about an hour drive south

91RedFirebird

I'm in TX too about 45 min north of austin

azvolfan

Pack you bags Dewey!!!!

Dewey316

Fer what? Texas? or you goona fly me to AZ for a week of sun

Cadillac

Left Austin a year ago.

Any trips to Bay Area?

azvolfan

Sounds like your services are need pretty bad in TX.

steve8586iroc

East Tennessee needs some help too.

thedogs

JP besides trawling these boards on the DIY section is there any particular books you think are best for the beginner tuner?

Grumpy mentions
"Helpful Books

Jeff Hartman,"Fuel injection - Installation, Performance tuning, Modifications", Publisher Motorbooks international.
Watson, Ben, "How to Repair and Modify Chevrolet Fuel Injection", Motorbooks International. "

I think your dyno is going to be around 228 HP and about 320 lbs.

JPrevost

I can't recommend any books because I dn't own any . I borrowed lots of books and just read them in the school library. I also read magazine articles pertaining to EFI and tuning in general. Other than that I've used the internet to gather my information but more importantly real world experience. Tuning my car, friends cars, and anything I can get my hands on (4 cylinder motorcycle engine with $$$$ parts) has given me a bunch of experience. Which I believe is worth more than a degree, a job, or having the ability to quote from a book. Don't get me wrong, the books help, but I'm not a reading person. I need hands on experience and lots of data-aq to review before I come to any conclusions.

thedogs

Fair enuff!

I could of read a 100 books on how to flip a pancake but theres only one way to learn some stuff.
"hurdy gurdy gurdy"
(muppet show chef impersonation ah thank you)

azvolfan

Well it looks like the only track open this week end will be Speedworld. And they are doing an old fashion street drag night. No track lights and no tree and no timer. Just car against car with a flagger. So I will not be able to get a time on the camaro this week. I will have to waint until the 12th.

On the bright side though, they are having a best looking flagger contest. Might have to check that out.

Dewey316

I don't know that you have much of a shot at that.

z71stroker

haha, that's not right lol.

So... your bringing all your gear when you come to texas right?

Dewey316

I don't know my exact plans, or if I will even have time to do any tuning. I will of course bring all my tuning stuff.

And I think I may have been off on where I'm going, It might be Amarillo, not Austin (yeah, I know that is like an 800 mile diffrence.)

Its for a family reunion, I thought it was austin, by brother think its amarillo, I guess I'll have to find out where it is, because it would really suck to fly into southern texas, and have it be in amarillo.

z71stroker

just giving you a hard time dewey, unless you want to try to tune it lol . there's a local fuel injection shop that "specializes" in efi tuning; they tune with a dyno and wide band, but when I spoke with em on the phone, they said something similar to what azvol kinda got, they said "we'd have to run it on the dyno and wb for a few days to see if it needs more fuel pressure", like holy red poked-dotted boxer shorts batman, of course i'm gonna need more fuel pressure, that takes a few days to find out?

JPrevost

The Ford SHO guys have a shop called, "The SHO shop." Maybe we need a "TBI shop." That specializes in tuning, parts, and upgrades for TBI stuff. I'm just kidding because honestly, there would be zilch for money specializing in the least impressive form of fuel injection. That's like specializing in Bosch K-jet allwronic (tronic for you new guys).
Bill, don't JUST take video/pictures of your run. If you feel the need to take pictures of the flaggers and share your good fortune (the weather and girls) with us poor souls stuck with snow... yeah, that would be GREEEAAAAAAT.

Dewey316

I bet some ASU girls show up for that.

Chuck!

Jon, I havnt had a chance to search on the diy board, but hows the TunerPro 4.0 stuff turning out? Im pretty excited about it.

JPrevost

Not so good for us but fine for the p4 guys. Apparently I just found a pretty big bug that was effecting the checksum calculation. I won't go into details but I happened to stumble upon the bug when I tried using it to tune Bill's camaro. All of MY bins for my car all have the checksum disabled with the $AA mask id so it never occured to me.
The good news is that it isn't stopping the program from calculating the checksum! I manually edited the xdf file in notepad and it works .
You should be excited, it's a lot nicer now that the bias values and table columns are all working. I haven't tested the ALDL stuff yet but Romulator likes it .

Chuck!

So its not a difficult fix? I have to get my POS up and though E*Check again over the summer (if I can ever track down what's making my map read 50 at idle.. grr..) and once that's done Im gonna get the MAP/RPM logger for my LM-1 and hit the tuning on mine and Shifty's cars heavy. I really want to see a 14.2-14.3 this year.

With 4.0 does it have any sort of tool like you had before with the ALDL to Bin stuff? I was thinking of trying to make a web based application to do the same stuff in PHP with the xdf if it's possible. I dont think it'd be too hard if I understood the XDF and how the bin needed to come out.

SchwarzCamaroRS

maybe... Speedworld is kinda far from ASU, but we can all dream.. i have video of the bikini contest at the last speedworld event i went to.. haha too bad there wasnt any bikini's. Just hot girls dancin in practically nothing... TONS of imports.. only 1 thirdgen was there that i saw... besides mine, but i didnt run

azvolfan

Well I finally got to the track and the time were quite disappointing. I ran a 15.7 and a 15.8. Actually slower than last time.

I don't know what the heck is going on.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I always suggest dialing in the fuel side with a carb to know what you can get out of it and then trying the TBI

though the one thing i have to warn you about is that you just might stay carb

BMmonteSS

What were all your times, 60ft, mph, 1/8 mile. You can trouble shoot a lot by seing where you slowed down. If you gained 3 mph and your 60 foot dropped off by .3 tenths then you have nothin to worry about.

I'm sure the TBI is the problem just slap a carb on it and do it right since TBI is inherently flawed any way.

azvolfan

Unfortunately in Arizona it is illegal to put a carb on a fuel injected car. And I absoluely will not do it.

azvolfan

First Run

R/T.......................409
60'.......................2.328
330......................6.619
1/8......................10.122 @ 68.68 MPH
1000...................13.153
1/4......................15.720 @ 88.38 MPH

Second Rund

R/T.......................255
60'.......................2.399
330......................6.714
1/8......................10.231 @ 70.14 MPH
1000...................13.270
1/4......................15.849 @ 87.86 MPH

On the second run I did not go right to the floor fron the green light because I got a little wheel spin on the first run. Also on the second run I wound it out a little further before shifting. I went to almost 5500rpm on the tach.

I think maybe more WOT tuning is needed.

azvolfan

Forgot to add that I unfortunately do not have any data logging. I did not take my laptop with me. I got off work early and went straight to the track.

BMmonteSS

Those numbers look about right for a stock Lo3. I don't know what the problem is. Something is deffinatelly amis. Doesn't look like it ran good down low and then died or anything like that. The times match the ET pretty good. Just seems like your not making any power.

With the gears you have you should have a much faster 60' even if you had a stock LO3. Those times look like what a stock car would run with 2.73's and a granny launch.

Did the car act funny at all, is it running ruff any where? I'd get the data logger up and running and see if anything is reading funny. I'd be looking for something major like a tps that only goes to 25% or a code 43 thats causing no timing advance.

thedogs

I hope you get it running well and track down whats holding all the power back..
maybe it's something completely missed..like a blocked cat or something.
I hope you get it going though because your car is a bit of a bench mark and progress follower for a lot of people I think...well it is for me.

Dewey316

Just keep digging Bill, this is part of modifying cars, I went thru this, ran slower after the cam swap at the track, then I started finding the problems. If you haven't done it already, since you were running so bad, you might want to do a full tune up on her.

BMmonteSS

I'll bet money it's somthin like a loose plug wire that fires fine under light load but starts missing under heavy load. Ask me how many times that's happened to me.

JPrevost

I'm rather speechless considering how much better if felt with 30 degrees total timing rather than 42. Yes, they had commanded 42 degrees of engine SA with his "dyno tune."
The car is running much better from the seat of the pants feel (less throttle needed than before) but the WOT tuning didn't get as much tuning attention.
I don't think there is anything wrong except for the fact that I goofed and didn't compare an OEM chip to their chip, starting with their chip might be a reason for the slowness. I did a compare and found that they had modified the knock tables to take less timing out (16 degrees max at ever RPM) and to bring it back in faster which would bounce him around 28 and 32ish depending on where it would pickup knock. That's how they got away with commanding 42 degrees... they were USING the knock and just limiting it's ability. Rather wicked way of doing a performance tune. So without checking WOT timing I left Bill with a burn that we had added 2 degerees everywhere. We didn't test out WOT for knock counts and I'm affraid this probably happened. So he's got a new bin for testing and then it's all in his lap as far as adjusting the PE afr and PE SA (right now it's 0).
I know the car's faster than a 15.7 , something is a miss.
What gas milage is she getting now?

azvolfan

My last fill up was 21.0 mpg. And that is with fast accelerations getting onto the freeway so I can listen to the exhaust sing. So I thought the mpg was pretty decent.

SchwarzCamaroRS

youre using 68# injectors too arent you? ive got 55#'s on mine and i get about the same mileage...

azvolfan

Yep. I've got the 68#er's.

BMmonteSS

azvolvan is tuning so the injector size won't effect his milage.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I am using 85 lb/hr 454 injectors in my new vortec cammed 355 TBI. Just got 19 mpg highway on a new engine even varying speed.

SchwarzCamaroRS

well azvolfan needs to tune mine too!!! lol, what size should i put in, cuz i know with the LT1 cam, 1.6 rockers and 083's those 55# wont support the amount of fuel i need...

azvolfan

I'm still trying to figure out how to tune mine!!

DM91RS

My engine combo must be a fluke or something as I still run only the stock 305 injectors. And it pulls very good! I need to invest in a WB and see what it's actually doing under WOT.


azvolfan have you had a WB hooked up to your new setup yet?

azvolfan

No I have not done a wide band.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Getting a WB would be a good idea. If your AFRs are correct, you have the right ammount of timing (id take a stab at around 28-32 degrees of total advance all in by about 3600 rpm), and there are no mechanical issues, then the engine has no choice but to make power. Of course, getting to this point is usually the hard part.

I was looking at the ADS bin and it looks like theyre really agressive with how fast they bring in timing. ~27 some odd degrees by 2200 rpm. Way too early to bring it in. Id have the curve start at around 10 degrees or so at 400-600 rpm and have it linearly come up to its peak by 3200-3600 rpm. Too much timing will kill your power, regardless of whether detonation is present or not. Youll be lighting up the mixture too early and youll loose work to compression losses.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Heres the ADS timing curve

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

This is merely my opinion but my impressions are that its too much, too fast, too early, too soon for an engine with reasonable compression. They have peak timing in by 2k and the rest of the table looks like it came out of a plastic extrusion machine. Doesnt really look like they took the time to properly tune the car. F-...

John did a good deal for you by helping with the P/T stuff. Thats really an art form so having his help was probably invaluable for that. But, as he said, he didnt touch much on the WOT tuning. The car may run great around town but itll turn back into little miss piggy when you step on it.

First off, Id try toning down the timing a bit. Have it gradually slope up to around your desired max timing at high rpms. In the ADS table, they have the timing sloping up fast as a ****. Something like 2-3 degrees per 100 rpm in some spots.

Heres what Id propose as a sanity check (see graph). Have the table start at around 8-10 degrees at lower rpms and smoothly slope up to around 28-30 degrees at 3600 rpm adn see how it does. Try to get your 0-60 time in winaldl datalog with the ADS table and your modified table. It wont be accurate, but it should still show you a general trend.

Some WB-O2s offer basic datalogging capabilities so in the future you could datalog your speed and use it to calculate acceleration. From there, you can overlay the charts of each run and have an instant indicator of how the cars power compares to before.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Timing is only half of the battle, you still have the VE to deal with. But, I think if your thorough and make small changes/document effects, you should be able to get it tuned in nicely.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Also, I dont know if Jon changed your BPWc (Im assuming he did, but Ill ask anyway) but if its at the stock value, youll be pig rich with the stock commanded AFRs. It should be ~109 with those injectors. Confirm this, though. I just did it off the top of my head.

Edit: Also make sure your base timing matches whats in your prom. And, if the BPW has not yet been set, back the timing off first before you reduce the BPWc as a precaution.

JPrevost

Dim, you're forgetting a few things.
Take a look at the ads PE SA. It's still 8, then look at their initial SA, it's 0. The cts and tcc sa tables are stock and 0.
So at WOT, he's got 27+8+6 = 41 degrees of timing under PE. I've eliminated PE SA and fixed the initial SA. There is no reason on Earth that he should be slower in the 1/4 now that it's just 2 degrees shy of tickling the knock sensor.
I'm confused. The 21mpg is good for an average and with 3.42 gears full weight .
Bill, are you shifting yourself or are you letting the trans do all the work. Also, might try a brake stand. Don't floor it, just hold it and roll into it when you do a brake stand. This will give you better control of the wheel spin. You actually want the tires to be chirping along with a tad of slip, that's the fastest way to that 1/4 mile mark.
When I let the trans do the shifting it shifts too early in all gears and tacks on an extra 6 tenths to my ET. You should be winding the engine out to 5600 in 1st and 5200 or so in 2nd.

azvolfan

I was shifting @ 5000 rpm in the first race and @ 5500 rpm in the second race. In the first one I got just a little chirp and wheel spin at the start. In the second race I had not wheel spin because I did not go to the floor of the line. I went around 3/4 throttle and then went to the floor. Just wanted to try something different.