Gunny Highway

iTrader: (1)

Gunny Dad here...

To get the pressure lower, I could amputate the current spring.

Yes datalog would be HIS next step. Who knows what the computer is listening to and what it is try to do with that input.

Datalog, man, datalog.

Sean, what your tbi back?

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

gunnydad,

need to find out what fuel pump gunny put in there. stock fuel pressure is 11-14lbs. i'm thinking he may have gone with the walbro 255, which is designed for tpi cars, which operate at much higher fuel pressures. a number of guys on here have said they couldn't get the fuel pressure low enough with that pump.

i think the injectors gunny's running may be compounding the problem. earlier in this thread, he said he was hoping to make 360 hp with this combination. given that goal, here's the injector calculation:

(360HP X .45 BSFC = 162)

(2 Injectors X .9 Duty Cycle = 2.222)

162 / 2.222 = 72.907

so he'll need around 73 lbs per hour per injector to support 360 horsepower. i'm pretty sure he said he was using 85lb/hr injectors, so they'd be too big, even at stock fuel pressure. at 17psi, they're flowing even more than that. i'm thinking the solution may be to go back to 65lb/hr "cop car" injectors and turn the fuel pressure up.

before i did anything, however, i'd want to get advice from an experienced tuner. regardless of what injectors are run, this combination is going to reguire a lot of chip tuning. maybe the bigger injectors can be made to work through that tuning ... i don't know.

as far as my tthrottle body goes, i'd like to come take a look at the car, i can pick it up then.

BMmonteSS

I wouldn't put too much stock in those calculations. I'm running two 75 pph injectors at 22psi and I barly have enough fuel to feed my 300ish hp motor. There are too many variables that that equation doesn't acount for. The reason it's running rich is because of the lack of tuning. My car litterally filled the throttle bores up with fuel when I started it with a stock 350 chip. It runs nice and peachy now. I would stick the stock injectors in there for now and crank the fuel pressure up a tad untill your ready to tune. Just don't get in it, you'll be really lean up high.

JPrevost

Yeah, use the injector calculations with a BSFC of about .65 and it works out better, lol.
I'm running 28psi of fuel pressure on "65# @ 12psi" injectors and that's not even for 330hp.

iroczrockz

Once it's all said and done:...Welcome to the 350 TBI club Gunny!

ben73

Maybe that walbro pump is pushing too much fuel and your return line is the restriction causing the fuel pressure to remain high?
This can happen if your pump is too big,. or the return line too small....

Gunny Highway

iTrader: (1)

For what it's worth guys, the pump is a Walbro 190; installed about a year ago.

Sorry for not chiming in more, but I just moved into a new apartment, and I won't have internet and cable until Tuesday.


Do yall have suggestions on how to datalog? I know what it is, but I'm not quite sure how to do it. . . like, should I just let the car idle for 5 minutes or so while the ALDL program is running? Or should I rev the car to 2K RPM's or something?? I'm a "chip tuning virgin."

Right now, the car can only be moved around the driveway and idle. That's about it.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

i guess one is in neutral and look at idle first. it will populate that cell(s) and give you a BLM to consider. then off idle attempt to populate more cells 1200 /1600 /2000 rpms. one idle cells known time for a ride on level street and repopulate some cells but with a steady pedal. in fact i would use cruise if you have it. dont invoke AE/PE. i did this this weekend with WB. easy to invoke AE.

Gunny Highway

iTrader: (1)

WHEN WILL IT END????!!!!

OK, update yall.

So we couldn't detune enough for the 75#'s to work. So then I go out and buy some stock 55#'s for it, but we put them in, and the spray pattern is all jacked up. It drips, so it's causing the A/F meter to continously jump from lean to rich(most likely when the drip enters the system).

This thing is really, really pissing me off. I think the new injectors are not correct or something. There's no reason why they should have such a crappy spray pattern.

So now we're contemplating putting the stock 305 injectors in there, because I refuse to spend anymore money on injectors. ($280 thus far)

Does anybody live around the metro Atlanta area who wants to come over and beat the crap out of this thing w/a sledge hammer with me?

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

Try replacing your injector pod.

Verify that you haven't kinked your return line somewhere on the way back to the tank.

Gunny Highway

iTrader: (1)

I can't get a pic of the new injectors (55#), but I'll explain the difference between them, and our stockers. . .

On our stock ones, as well as the 75# I bought, the point at which the fuel comes out is flush with the bottom on the injector. The 55#'s I bought, along with all the other ones I've seen, the area where the fuel comes out is recessed up into the injector and has to travel down a 1/3" - 1/2" tunnel/cone thing before it's exposed. I think that is the problem.

OK, that's it for now.

Teal91rs

Welcome to the neverending story club. My monte has been acting like this if its not eletrical its with the tranny the fuel system bah im at the end of my rope with this car! but hang in there i am

iroczrockz

Gunny, I know you don't want to spend more money on injectors but, I bought two 61# "matched" injectors from turbocity. They have given me no problems. I also bought the "CopCar" chip from a guy at www.tbichips.com for $30.00. Car has been running fine for a while.

Gunny Highway

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, I got in contact with Brian this weekend and we're figuring some things up. I also have an extra "Cop Car" chip that I put in there to see if it would run any better, but that was with the stock 305 injectors installed (20# not enough), and it would run, but it ran like total crap and kept suring up and down trying to compensate for the small injectors.

The good thing is, I was able to get my money back for the two 55#'ers I bought, so I might look into the Turbo City ones. In reference to my last post, where does the fuel come out of with those Turbo City ones that you have?? . . . is it flush with the bottom, or is it recessed?

Thanks guys. If some new injectors and a chip don't work on this thing, you all are welcome to come over with whatever blunt object you choose and go to town on this thing.

iroczrockz

My are pretty flush with the bottom. I tried to take a picture of them but it didn't turn out that well. I have a bad camera.

iroczrockz

My injectors are spraying a cone shape right from the bottom (flush). The injector pod spacer didn't make much difference as far as I could tell.

JPrevost

My ; Bad choice.
This is the reason why I can't help much on this board anymore... because nobody wants to DIY and instead is looking for a magical calibration that is so universal that even GM with their millions spent on R&D couldn't have come up with .
BTW, the copcar chip isn't worth when you look at the way they tuned it. Let's just say they disabled the speed limiter but were able to keep a speed limiter. Here's a hint; they flood the motor at moderate to heavy throttle and then lean it out at WOT . That kind of information makes you almost sick to think that somebody is making money selling it to suckers.

Gunny Highway

iTrader: (1)

Ya know JPrevost. . . I like you and all, but since you've come back, you've been very bitter. I don't know who or what has chapped your *** as some point, but you're just not posting very friendly post lately.

Maybe it's me, maybe it's the beers talking , but I'm just not gettin' a good vibe from you lately.

I for one am somewhat interested in DIY PROM stuff, but in all honesty, I don't have the time nor the inclination to learn it. I'm having enough problems understanding the mechanics of an engine let alone all of the computer stuff.

I'm still cool with you and stuff, but I just thought I would put that out there.

BronYrAur

iTrader: (1)

Disagree. I think more people on this board need to visit the diy-prom board and also listen to some of the posts of prevost's instead of taking them on a personaly level (ie bitter tone). I think tbichips.com is a complete ripoff, if you got a burner and the equipment you could burn the same "cop car chip" for free because the .bin is just floating around the diy community.

I've also looked at the fuel and timing curves in the cop car bin and they are pitiful looking. Just because it had a 350 doesn't mean it was meant to run a Camaro with a 350, they're a completely different car.

Look into the diy-proming and read stuff over on that board for maybe a week and I guarantee if you have confidence in understanding it and just put some time into reading the stuff you will be able to burn a better chip for your car than tbichips.com can. It's become so easy there really is no excuse for anyone not to do it on their own.

Also, I see Jon as a very valuable asset to the TBI community. After all he did write the ecu file that anyone without tunercat is undoubtedly using to edit .bins. He also put together a cool program for dialing in VE quickly and just gave it to the public. He's the wrong person to complain about in my eyes. My

iroczrockz

JPrevost, I like your ideas and all but there is no sense on trying to bring someone else down. I am all for improving my car and helping others improve their car. I am sure the chip could be better but ya know I hardly have the time to work on my car lately so DIY chip burning is not for me right now. When I put my 350 in and tried to run it with the 305 chip it was terrible. The "Copcar" chip was a quick and easy solution to get my car running. I have a daily driver and I couldn't afford to let it sit in the drive waiting till I figured out the DIY chip burning.

I have an idea though. It sounds like you know what your talking about so why don't you start up a chip burning service. I am sure people would give you their business. As easy as it is, sometime people just don't want to spend the time on chip burning. If you offered me a better chip with a reasonable price I would buy it from you.

P.S. Nobody likes to be called suckers!

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

jon,

i think it's a little unfair to take such a harsh view of others in this hobby who don't have the computer abilities, inclination, time, equipment or some combination of the above to become expert chip tuners. i have a buddy who is an expert engine builder who takes the same view of people who buy crate engines. well, if i had my own machine shop and had personally built over 500 small block chevys, i might feel the same way he does. since i don't, i'll definitely buy that wheeler motorsports 383 short block when i'm ready, and it doesn't make me any less a car enthusiast than he is. there are all sorts of people in this hobby, with all sorts of skillsets, inclinations and time budgets. what seems patently obvious and dead-simple to someone with strong computer skills is absolute gibberish to someone who has none. i've been reading the diy board off and on for over a year and it is still all way over my head. if that makes me stupid, then so be it. it doesn't, however, make me any less of a car enthusiast than the guys on that board.

here's what i don't understand. if virtually every chip-burning service is essentially garbage, as is the commonly held belief among the diy-tuners, and since the number of posts from people stating their desire to use a chip burning service clearly shows a demand for it, why doesn't someone like yourself start an honest chip burning service?

you could charge a flat fee for the first 5 or 10 chips (whatever the number you feel it'd take to dial it in) and a per-chip update charge after that. instead of using preset bins, you could offer a "starter kit" you'd send to new customers with an aldl cable, a cd with winaldl on it with a 1 click installation macro, maybe even the moates adapter. the customer would do the datalogs you needed, email them to you and you could burn the chip and send it to them. you could even offer ecms with the moates adapter and/or the prominator built in. explain up front that there'd be several weeks turnover time and you wouldn't have to invest any of your own money. the customer pays, you build the cable, burn the cd, get an ecm and order the moates adapter or prominator and put it all together.

i'm not talking about your trying to exploit the work of the diy board to make a ton of money. if you did this at a reasonable price you'd be offering a valuable service to many fellow third gen enthusiasts to whom the world of chip tuning is a dark and mysterious place. you could also pick up some valuable spare change. you're a college student on a tight budget, aren't you? hell, when i was in college, i dressed up in a gorilla suit and delivered dead flower bouquets to ex-wives, husbands, boyfriends and girlfriends to earn my tuition, this seems a much less humiliating (and safer) way for a starving student to turn a unique skill into a revenue-generator.

pleae take no offense at this. i'm aware of your contributions to this board and am grateful, but i also see a prevailing viewpoint from people to whom this is so simple towards those of us who can not so easily grasp it. i know we're frustrating you guys, but we love our third gens, too.

Gunny Highway

iTrader: (1)

Wow. . . just wow.

Somehow, your coolness points just went up a few.

Cadillac

You Georgia people are funny.

(raised in Augusta)

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

i have 3 sets of GM injectors. all are spraying flush with bottom of injectors. who manufactures an injector where the exit is recessed 1/2 inch in a tunnel? it would seem that the spray would wash down the sides of tunnel and drip out. like placing a cylinder over garden hose on wide spray setting. i dont get it. is this a modded injector of some sort? all i know of is GM. i assume current Holley is the same as GM on design. as far as the chip discussion! i spoke to a rodder at a local car show. LT1 transplant in a killer 57 chev. only rodder i could ask Q as to how is the tuning progressing. other cars were all carbed. answer was not to well. car pig rich and fouling plugs and comtaminating oil. car barely drivable. this is after several chips being redone at no cost to customer. the burner is a very reputable source(Howell). i would have liked to follow up with him as a local guy(WIS). just makes the point very difficult(read impossible) to do mail order. i posted a comment some time back would be nice if a cell phone could somehow be linked to aldl and transmit data to tuner for review. maybe internet based? continuous data stream. is this goofy?? i would think $50 per hour to a "local" pro is not unreasonable to tune. seems few of us can afford that so personal hands on is our only choice.

BMmonteSS

Not to drag this out but I feel JPrevost' pain. If you only understood how our ecm's worked you would realize that you really have to get into chip burning if you want to make power with TBI. It's like saying I want to make more power with my stock 650 holley but I don't want to change jets. Sure you can make more power but don't expect it to run right. I bet 8 out of 10 problems on this board could be cured by chip burning. You don't have to be an expert chip tuner to burn you off a half dozed different cals from different vehicles to try out. You can also get 50% of the way by just tuning your "injector constant". If you can post to this board you can burn chips. It's really that easy. Now to tune a cammed up 402 with a single plane and a 454 TB, that takes time and some times magic. But it's not as hard as it seems over on the DIY board. What you see going on in the current post are the upper level classes. You have to start with traxion's article then move up to the stickies, then you can start exploring the deeper topics. With moate's new 80$ chip burner and 30$ adapter your in buisness. Your not allowed to beg for chips on here but if you guys would network off the boards no one would ever have to pay 30$ for a 3 dollar chip with a free tune on it.

Gunny Highway

iTrader: (1)

Exactly. They were made by GP Sorenstan or something like that. What you're assuming is exactly what happened.

I've read that article like 6 times, and it's still over my head. I'm sorry guys, but I'm just not good at that stuff. Now if you want to talk about the specifics of International Law and Policy, then sure, I'm game. If you want to talk about Local Polictics and Law, I can do that too, but my brain just doesn't work well with computer stuff.

Hell, I don't even understand how the injector sqirts out the fuel. So until I have an epiphany or something, I'm more than willing to pay for it.

JPrevost

Okay, I'm harsh but give me a break. Here's how I see it; I help for free, spend time giving advice, people get results but more often than not the TBI guys go without asking my advice and get ripped off then complain some more about needing help... WHEN I'VE SAID IT OVER AND OVER THAT MAIL ORDER CHIPS DON'T WORK!
If you can type and press buttons then you know how to program a ecm, it's not rocket science, it's REALLY simple step by step. As for the injectors, fuel pressure is higher than atmosphere so when the injectors open the fuel is forced (or sucked depending on how you look at it) from the injector . Imagine a garden hose with your finger over the end .
Back to the chip buisness.... I don't want to make money from it. I tried helping people through the mail but I never could imagine how it ran and without that feeling it's impossible to tune... and winaldl doesn't help diagnose a tune issue, only error codes (data is too slow).
So here's how I feel; if you don't want to spend the $100 on chip burning hardware (free software) then go with a carb, that's my advice. If I didn't have time (which I didn't) but wanted to keep EFI (which I did) then I found time. If it was impossible for me to find time (I had a part-time job and full time school but no girl) then I would have gone with a carb. They're easier to get close, not perfect, but better than a TBI with an ANLU bin (that's the copcar calibration).
I think I'm going to get a website that goes into tuning TBI. Understand that TBI is harder to tune than port injection because of the wet-flow (fuel in the intake manifold).
I know how you all feel about your TBI powerplants, I was there 4 years ago and have had a HARD time with my project... but even after all my headaches I'm still glad I kept TBI and didn't go carb. For others (like Pablo and Brian Felts to name a couple) had great success with carbs. It just depends on the combination... blaming TBI for poor performance when in reality there are mechanical problems and a crappy engine to begin with is just crazy talk... that's why I kept it. To prove the nah sayers wrong. I found help through RBob and Grumpy and believe me, Grumpy and I had a hate/hate relationship before we became friends.

edit: I also need everybody else to understand that I might sound like an *** but I do care. If I didn't you wouldn't see a reply. I too have only 24 hours in a day and things like eating, sleeping, working, family, the red sled, and this website take up time. I can't reply to as many of the TBI questions because 98% (up from 96% last year) of the "new" threads are just old threads that can be found here -->

cali92RS

If i can echo wut jon prevost just said...its really not hard at all. Hell, he even made a program where all u do is take winaldl data, enter it into his program and it spits out a new .bin ready to be burned, no thought processes involved, and you got your Part throttle fueling done. You smooth out your spark tables, adjust your TCC to where u like it, adjust your AE, and you got a car thats tuned better than 80% of the cars out there.

iroczrockz

I'm with Gunny on this. If I had $100 to spend on the car it would probably not be on the hardware needed. Who knows maybe someday I might try and get into it. What would really be nice is a shopping list for dummies like myself on DIY chip burning. In plain english not "ANLU", "AE","TCC", etc.

My chip has worked for me. I have been driving on it for a while now. My car could probably get more out of a better chip but I just don't want to mess with that.

Just like seanof30306 said about the engines. I can build an engine, I have before, but I elected to get a crate engine for my car to cut out the headache. It would be nice if some company would make a TBI system for our computers.

I feel like we have gotten way off the subject though . So what are in your plans then Gunny?

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I really wish people wouldnt get all star trek when talking about chips.

That turns alot of people off.

BTW im running TBI these days.

Gunny Highway

iTrader: (1)

Well the motor is in, but it runs like shiat. The guy who is doing my PROM stuff is going for another reburn. I think we got crossed up on injector sizes when we were talking.

After that, she's goes DIRECTLY to the paint shop for a nice coating of Pepper Gray Metallic.

Then the 17" IROC's go on along with BFG KDWS and Eibach springs.

Then it's little things like the stereo and some better brakes.

After that, I'll really nothing left for her.

Most of this stuff is in my garage on the floor, but I've been held up by this chip issue.

iroczrockz

Sounds good. I would love to have some 17's. I'm hoping to get some Boyd Coddingtons some day.

Mike1

iTrader: (2)

Why can't it be done with that cam? The vortec 305 that CHP did had a similar cam and made 330hp at the crank with a similar cam and 45 less cubic inches. They also didn't have a 2inch tbi, but a stock one bored to 1 13/16.

I'm planning a similar motor; a 350, AFR 180 heads, 2 inch tbi, cam with 215/218 duration. Lunati says this one should make in the neighborhood of 370hp. What do you think on that cam, can it be done?

Later,
Mike