Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I dont know if you guys remember me
I used to be a moderator here and basically kicked off the whole TBI movement as you know it (ok it wasnt single handed ) but there once was a time when there was no tbi board

there once was a time when tbi was never even modded, no one ever put a carb manifold under tbi much less a single plane, and so on and so forth

lets rewind for a bit

three years ago I started on a mission, the goals of which ill admit were somewhat ludicrous. I had a 305 .030 over with a large cam, single plane, home ported heads etc etc

Well fast forward 3 years.. the car sat for 2 of them while i was off working for uncle sam saving money. I came back a week ago for some time off and decided to get to work

The car sports a carburetor right now however the spark is run by the TBI computer and distributor. My goal was to start fresh, get a good baseline with a simpler combo and then tackle the fuel injection head on with all my new tools

one of those tools happens to be the new gtech pro -competition model.. with 5 accelerometers, temperature compensation. etc etc. Essentially its been touted as extremely accurate, details are at gtechpro.com and no, i cant go to a track because i am not going to drive 150 miles through sweltering heat and traffic for 3 hours to get 3 runs in at a ****ty track with imports puking oil all over the launch pad, besides it wouldnt matter because people will still say the timers are messed up if i ran well.


after doing some final adjustments the car was running OK and i was planning on Gteching it. Well i got impatient and I decided to gtech it in the middle of the hot florida sun.. probably upper 80s outside

I got two runs in, back to back with zero preparation, windows open and everything. No inflation changes, and wheel hop prevalent, car is a 5 speed and i havent driven it in over two years save for a week or two about a year and a half ago

I will let them speak for themselves


First run
60' 2.380
330' 6.189
1/8 9.293 @ 80.84
1000' 11.944
1/4 14.170@101.92
Second run immediately after first, not even a minute to cool off (car got hot)
60' 2.356
330'6.145
1/8 9.228 at 81.47
1000' 11.864
14.080 at 102.33

this thing also reads rpm and calculates hp, i put the weight of the car with me in it as 3270 , its a light car

I think the hp calc is a little off or something (i need to read the manual) it gives two numbers in one screen it said 180 and in the other (hp vs Time) it gave 230
anyhow peak hp was at 5519 rpm and peak torque was at 4569 rpm

with a good hook this thing with NO FANCY poopie at all should hit 13.5's! its still wheel hopping too, i need new bushings


Im still looking to find out whether or not the new gtech measures mph like the old one.. my educated guess is that it does not since ive driven my buddies 95 cobra to a 14.4 at 104 mph with a good launch (the car was basically stock) on the older style gtech

also Gtechs webpage only states the gtech pro measures mph higher than the track and does not mention anything about the gtech competition model having a similar feature (problem?)

another thing, a guy that used to be around here had a very similar combo to mine ran a 14.0 at 101 before with IIRC a 2.0 60 foot

once i get this combo dialed in im going to throw tbi on there and tune it with my wide band and this thing.. we'll see if I cant match the times or do any better. I think its gonna need some tweaks on that two bbl to flow enough air though. Hey Jprevost here I come

Pablo

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

oh here are the car specs

Its a 305 .030 over
416 heads fully ported by me with stock valves, probably between 8.8 and 9:1 compression
214/224 .474 .498 cam
crankshaft oil wiper
edelbrock Torker II single plane
Edelbrock 600 cfm chokeless carb
edelbrock headers and full exhaust with no cat
T5 tranny
solid mounted torque arm
lca loweringbrackets
3.42 gears
Powertrax locker
no front sway bar, relocated battery, no AC, no rear seats or spare.. probably around 3100 pounds total or less

25THRSS

What's so shocking about it? You need more gear and more compression along with some sticky tires then you should pull some good times.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Well the fastest time the car ever ran before was a 14.8

in addition to that, the heads are factory heads, not even a 30 degree backcut to them.. and the point i was making was that despite the lack of compression and other handicaps such as lack of traction it still ran a good time.. certainly one of the fastest 305s on thirdgen.org and i know that there is no 305 n/a on this particular board that can even touch me (unless someone ran some wacky stuff overnight). Id certainly like to hear what you run if you dont consider a 14.0 with a terrible 60 foot out of a 305 a good time. You runnin faster than that?

and no, slicks will just snap one of my axle shafts like i have allready done because of the wheel hop problem What i need is new bushings possibly new control arms. Im also going to add airbags to the rear end


and really, name someone with a 305 n/a out there that has run better than this. I know of a few people, i stress few, and I have been on thirdgen.org since before it was thirdgen.org and was on the missouri.edu server. That was like 7 years ago.

dont **** on my parade

25THRSS

I believe devil'sadvicate just ran a 14.1 with his 305 at around 97 mph I believe and that was untuned. I could prolly name others, but thats not what I'm here for. I can understand your excitement for running faster, and I congratulate you, but it's really not all that special. BTW, I run 11's NA, but it's not with a 305. I'm not trying to cut you down or anything or disrespect you either so dont freak out on me please.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

FWIW mine is untuned aswell, those were my first runs in over two years and first with this carb. The jetting was just a best guess and same goes for timing

and I can name others aswell.. all , uh, 3 of them

25THRSS

Are you using the same thickness head gaskets as stock? Did you do any porting to the actual combustion chamber of the heads?

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

nope no porting to the combustion chamber, I know full well that there are large gains tobe made in clearancing the walls around the valves but at the time when i built this I had very little money and could not afford head work or shorter pushrods (did not want to lose compression which was allready going to be low). Much less machining the valves, I assembled it with the felpro gasket they sell at pepboys and only mildly polished the chambers. If youd like to see pictures of the bowls and ports you can look at www.geocities.com/topfuelcyclist/ thats my old webpage that has not been updated in almost 4 years , the pics are in the 310 power section

the CR is a guess really because the motor has dished pistons that I guess add another 13 ccs or so to the chamber which offsets the larger bore. The heads may have been milled slightly (like .010) allthough im not sure, i purchased them used

r90camarors

Good job pablo. Glad to hear the progress. If those traps are anything to close to accurate, then you are by far the quickest naturally aspirated 305 on the tbi board. I'd really like to see what you run with the tbi. The Holley 670 is somewhere around 500cfm when converted to 1.5" hg, so you won't loose too much air flow.

Oh, and after you catch Jon, you have to catch me I'm shooting for low 13's on street tires at 106+mph by the end of this season. But of course, the 383 helps....

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

btw lemme restate something i say all the time

DONT REBUILD A 305


the reason i have a .030 305 is because it was a free shortblock and i figured what the hell


if you are going to have any machining done, for the love of *** let it be atleast a 350

oh and thanks r90,yeah that 383 you have there sounds like a mean SOB. You oughta be turning 12s in no time

BronYrAur

iTrader: (1)

Pablo, your times are almost a full second faster than Devilsaddvocate's and your mph are about 4mph faster but he also has Vortec heads on there.

Those are really great times. I really want to see how you do once you slap that TBI back on there, maybe give some people something to shoot for so they don't think TBI sucks.

I think the fastest NA 305's that still had TBI on them were NJ Speeder's I think about a 14.2 and Beast5spdGta pulled like a 14.38, I think, with stock heads.

Good to see you posting again on here hope to see your input on this board around more the TBI bigshots seem to be not posting ever anymore.

25THRSS

No, like I said, Devil'sadvicate ran a 14.1. Like I said earlier his times aren't all that impressive. Beast ran that 14.3 with an L98 cam on stock swirl port heads and tbi. .3 seconds with a much bigger cam and ported 416 heads isn't too great. As time goes on more and more guys are pulling impressive times with their 305 tbi's, with less mods and still using tbi. That was with a carb so comparing him to other tbi cars is pretty much pointless also. There are plenty of carb guys running faster than that with 305's.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

well lets restate the facts, first off I thought beast ran a 14.46 and I do remember NJ running a 14.25 but we are ignoring 1, trap speed, and two, thosecars both had excellent 60 foot times. I remember NJ's car in particular for having a great launch.

BronYrAur

iTrader: (1)

devilsaddvocate ran a 14.16 at 96.9 and weighed in at 3050 lbs. Pablo just pulled a 14.08 at 102.33 that's about 5mph higher and .08 seconds quicker when devilsaddvocate weighs 220 pounds less. That's quite a difference in my eyes and with Vortec heads as opposed to ported production GM heads. I also think Beast's car was a factory freak most other cars on this site with the same mods weren't pulling times anywhere near his.

BronYrAur

iTrader: (1)

I think NJ's 60's were in the 1.9 range IIRC.

25THRSS

It would be interesting to see flow #'s from ported 416's versus stock vortec heads. Probably pretty similar i'de bet. I really don't think beast's car is a freak at all. He just happens to have documented dyno and track #'s where as most others don't. If you look at his dyno #'s and compare his with other members with similar mods they are right where they should be. Nothing out of the ordinary. You also have to remember the driver plays a big role in et's, especially with a 5 speed.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Do you really know of anyone with a carb and 305 running faster? I can only remember two or three (carb guys running faster) and ive been around on these boards forever

one was a guy that had TBI and he went to vortecs and a fully prepped 305 shortblock. He went to an edelbrock carb and turned 13.6 he had a brother on this board aswell I cant remember his name

The other guy that I know of was running nearly identical to me and a very similar setup , same cam, same heads except he had 1.94s and better compression however he was hitting 2.0s, road race guy with a webpage link on this site.

a third guy named bort (people apparently are looking for him seems he ripped folks off) claimed to be running in the same vicinity with a 305 with stock manifolds


im not saying its hard to do im just saying its not common. Most people move up to a 350 before even bothering

as for my heads, lemme reiterate, they dont even have any chamber work, low compression, no 30 degree backcut on the valves, and I had never ported a set of cyl heads before in my life before I ported those.

The runs made by those two guys above are great runs im not trying to take away from them anything, however, they were the BEST runs out of dozens of attempts in excellent weather after much tuning this is not to say their cars were perfectly tuned but surely they managed to tune more than i have what with the fact ive only run the car TWICE and back to back without any kind of prep or tuning whatsoever and they probably have a mountain of timeslips for all the runs that werent so good

let me do some runs while i play with jetting and I can guarantee the mph will go up, or play with the timing or relearn to shift like i used to for that matter.

Stay tuned, tomorrow Ill probably post some updated times if I get to do the tuning Id like to do

25THRSS

That is very true. I am not trying to take any credit away from you at all, dont get me wrong. Your times are good, but I think the reason is because most other's as you say write off the 305 and never try to do much with it. I like what you are trying to do and have no doubt with proper tuning you can run better times. I like how you try to work with what you have and make the best out of it and not take the easy way out. I am the same way. I was just simply saying that the shock and awe part isn't there for me. I'm not suprised at all you pulled those times. It can easily be done, but it seems no one wants to do it with the 305, especially the 305 tbi.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

lol the Shock and Awe is just a little bit of smack talk man.. shock and awe is more like seeing a topfuel dragster run in the 4s

25THRSS

lol, haha, yeap. We need more people like you on the tbi board so we can get tbi going. It's sad how many people automatically write off tbi as junk even before they know any real facts about it. If we just had a few people with brains on here I think quick tbi cars would become a lot more common. You need to take the damn carb off and get that tbi back on man.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

and indeed I will, but running the carb is part of the plan. I want a direct comparison with a known good induction system. The carb and particularly this carb has been around 50 years so it definately has been refined to the point where there should be no question that I can reach the perf. potential of this engine. Course alot of holley guys disagree but Ive worked with holleys adn really at this level these kinds of carbs are all the same once you get past the minor differences and flaws they all have (they all have workarounds)

I want to have the car running as quickly as possible before I throw the TBI on there and then it will be a week of tuning or so before its ready to run. I also need my WB setup to come in to assist in that.

I think the TBI can match the carb. I know that the tbi can beat the carb under peak torque but the peak HP has me worried the tbi doesnt flow a whole lot but I have some tricks up my sleeve for that problem. We will see what happens.

Pablo

BronYrAur

iTrader: (1)

Pablo I can't wait to see what these tricks are that you have up your sleeve.

cali92RS

Those are some pretty bad *** times with a 305 but...
Your first post to this thread is how you almost single handedly started the TBI board and how the TBI can be used to build up a pretty fast car. But all you have done is put another feather in the cap of all the people who talk **** about the TBI. Im not saying TBI is the best method of fuel and air delivery at all. All Im saying is that if your gonna brag about your times (which are real good) and how u championed for TBI in this board, maybe you should actually be running a tBI.

TonyC

iTrader: (1)

Nice times man, should suprise some LT1 'maro's and vettes. Especially when you tell them it's a 305! Toss that TBI back on there and keep us up to date, good luck!

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Cali,

What you've said is true enough. I dont care what people say though, Im not trying to get TBI elected to office and after 5 years of dealing with this crap you come to realize that it doesnt matter what you run. There will always be people finding flaw with it one way or another. The best I can do is a scientific comparison of both systems to see whether or not I can prove my hypothesis to myself. Its really for my enjoyment more than anyone else though I'll admit I do get a kick out of seeing unreasonable people "outed" as such.

Probably the biggest thing Ive learned doing this is to not let yourself become a horse with blinders on. You learn alot more when you experiment with different things and running the carb has been an example of that.

tbfirebird

i do it just to see the look of people when they say thats got a tbi and its auto with the 2.73 in the rear espically when i beat a mitsubish eclipse spyder and he had exhaust intake and was stick shift with a tach.


also just love to crusie at 126 on a 45

MericanMuscle

Pablo, have you happened to have decided what adapter plate you are going to use when you put the tbi back on, since some mount more towards the front of the manifold and others right in the middle, right away i would think the middle but who knows with the tbi fuel distribution.. i was thinking the only reason they would make teh adapters mount the tbi towards the front would be at idle and part throttle so the fuel doesnt run down the back of the intake, others have said linkage things, but what do you think would be better for all around performance on a single plane intake.. ?

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Mount it in the center, the fuel distribution problems at part throttle are fixed by a couple things. For starters minimizing your IAC counts which basically increases the airflow past the throttle blades is important. This is what atomizes the fuel as it gets pulled past the edges of the blades. If there is no suction then the fuel will just roll off the back and drip onto the manifold floor. I actually plan on deleting the IAC entirely, atleast initially when I go back to TBI. The car pulls low enough vaccum as it is (about 15"), I dont need another thing taking even more airflow away from the throttle blades.

Another thing that is important is raising the injector pod so that the spray cone does not hit the throttle blades. You want the fuel cone to hit the walls just above the throttle blades. If it hits the center it will all just roll to the back edge of the blades and make your rear cyls rich.

The adapter I have is a turbo city adapter for the stock sized tbi that I had to modify to work with the 2" bore unit. Id suggest looking into having one made with similar specs.. youll need to cant the outer edges inward with most manifolds.

Kevin G

Those are pretty good times. FYI though, the G-Tech is usually off at least2-4 mph too high, but the e.t's usually are pretty accurate.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Does the new one calculate MPH the same as the old one? Bear in mind im running the new gtech. Doesnt say anything about that in the manual or on the website

camaroguy2003

According to a old style gTech unit I am knocking on 13s door. It had me at a 14.130. This is with the stock TBI with the Ultimate TBI mods, stock LO3 heads, and stock torque convertor and major traction problems. I'm headed to the track on August 22nd so then I'll have an official slip. Hopefully with tuning and a set of slicks I can push her down into the 13s. Some of us have some pretty quick 305s and Pablo its good to have you back. Now you just have to get that TBI back on there. Good luck with it and keep us informed.

brodyscamaro

Those are good times. I haven't heard anything about the new GTechs, but it ain't a track, and I just don't believe the times like it was one.
I don't know about all of you other guys' track but my local one (2+ hour drive away, 4+ hours round trip) hooks about 10000% better then the street. Are you sure that in all directions there is only that one track close, and it's that crappy?

Chuck!

I dont know if that's like the old GTechs, but the old ones used to give you your speed after 1320', where as a trap speed is a calcuated average over the last ~100 or so feet, probably more but that Im not sure on it. On all the cars Ive seen it run at the track, its about 2 mph higher.

That said, even 100 is haulin' in a 305ish engine, esp na. That was my goal, but **** got all ****ed up and now Im left with a car that was broken into on Wednesday and that ended my summer probably, right after the Walbro 255

Spray that son of a bitch, my friend Denny (Autoroc on cz28.com) went from 15.50 to 12.9's on a 125 shot with a carbed 305.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, uh... im pretty sure, Ive been racing in this area for a few years now


The only track in south florida is Moroso motorsports park in palm beach gardens florida, which is north (the only direction I can travel since I am as far south as you can get almost and there is no east or west unless the car floats or i want to drive over gators in the 'glades). After that I think its orlando speedworld. Thats probably 5 hours away. Then theres gainesville raceway which is probably around 6 hours away. Uhm.. yeah, not many tracks here


im looking through all the data the gtech collects and it might very well be the same as the old one as far as trap speed.. i still am not sure

Regardless of that, it recorded me hitting 100 mph in 13.7 seconds. I dont know if the last 100 feet of a track takes .38 seconds to travel at that speed. Im sure one of you smart kids can figure it out. Take that info as you will.

bigREd car

pablo didnt you say you had your dist ran by the computer?? wouldnt tha tbe hurting performance??
Shawn

iroc22

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=165566

Here's the few currently that are in the 13's with 305 TPI's at least; I think there's only like 3 people.

I wish I had developed TBI more as well. No tuning on the old G-tech I was turning 14.4@98mph consistantly. The 305 TBI was running pig rich with my mods; I should have installed a VAFPR or got a custom chip.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Shawn, that actually helps performance because the timing is much more accurately applied. Especially on gear shifts, when the rpm drops suddenly the springs and weights in a mech distributor dont give consistent amounts of advance. I havent had experience on a dist. machine this is just relaying what Ive read. Granted its probably extremely minimal. At anyrate im not losing performance with the electronic dist. I program my own timing curves and have a very nice one in there right now



as an update, I just ordered aluminum bushings and a rear coil spring airbag kit. When i go back out ill only run one fan, run a cool manifold, close the windows, run at night when its cooler, pump up the front tires and lower the rears. Im pretty sure ill be deep in the 13s

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

and i did the math and i think it probably does figure mph like the old one


according to what i call Dumb Mans Physics I came up with around 56 feet away from the finish line at 13.7 seconds at 100 mph

in which case (i could sit here and figure out what my actual trap speed was but..) Im guessing my actual trap would have been about 100 mph... actually just a little over 100

Chuck!

Ive no idea the math behind it, Im just going from seeing cars GTech their runs at the track. ETs were near dead on, but mph was always about 2 mph high.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

heres what i heard. The trap speed at the track is measured over a span of 60 feet b/w two beams so the trap speed is an average of the speed since it is obtained from the time that it took for the car to cross from one beam to the other. The gtech gives the instantanious speed at what it beleives to be 1320 feet, so the speed is instantanious speed at the end of the 1/4 mile rather than the average betweent the two beams, which will eb slightly lower than the instantanious speed.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

so pablos time woudl be like 99 mph or maybe a 100 mph at the track.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

another thing to note that deleting parts of the interior doesnt save much weight and will hurt traction. I removed my *entire* interior so it woudl a) not get ruined and b) it makes sumping all the water out after it rains alot easier. The total wight of the interior with spare was 150 lbs. Thats all carpeting front and back, panels, rear seat, spare, and pass side seat, which was the heaviest single item removed. Thats only a 150 pounds for everything. That surprised me because i thought id at least save a little more wieght. Not only that but most of the interiors weight is supported by the rear wheels so it will hurt traction since a larger portion of the items weight that you remove is over the rear tires. Now, if you relocate a similar ammount of weight to the rear its a different story. I jsut thought this would be worth throwing out there since ive seen alot of people (pablo excluded) ripping stuff out and not making an effort to relocate weight to compensate for it.

25THRSS

Just something to note. Most roads are not flat, so he could have been going downhill during that run. He also could have been going uphill, so the only real way to find out his times would be to make a visit to the track or else nothing is even valid.

brodyscamaro

I have also read somewhere that if you hit a little bump in the road during your run it will mess up the time.

Yeah, it might be the "competition" model, but it's still a gtec.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Geez you guys must think im retarded
I ran those two times in opposite directions on the same stretch of road that happens to pretty darn flat. If youve ever been to south florida youd realize finding a flat road isnt that hard since there is zero elevation change here anywhere and basically every road is flat.

If it wasnt flat, one time would be way slower than the other


another thing, since its the last 60 feet that is averaged and I hit 100 about 56 feet away from the finish line and ended up at 102.33, 100 + 102.33 / 2 = 101.165 mph I dont know how fast I was going 4 feet prior to the 100 mph mark but I dont think it was that much slower to make more than a couple thousandths of a difference besides why nitpick these numbers. These were with both electric fans running (its a noticeable drain, at idle the rpm drops some when the second fan engages) 32 psi in the front tires, both windows open, an airfilter, a hot manifold, and really, I was just out there to test how the Gtech worked. The furthest thing on my mind was to try and get the best ETs possible out of it. It was in the middle of the day for crying out loud and (again) if youve ever been to south florida in august, the middle of the day tends to be hotter than the pits of hell and damnation.
I will post et's deep in the 13s in both directions on the same stretch of road come late tuesday or wednesday.


As a related story, I was out there playing with jetting today when a guy brings this 00' or so mustang out that looked pretty mean, DRs, paxton supercharger, the ubiquitous big tach and cobra r's
anyhow he asks me what i run and I tell him around a 14 flat and I ask what he runs and he said something like high 12s. Anyhow we decide to race anyways, we go from a roll since i would be destroyed off the line. He pulled about a half car in first and then I stayed with him all the way up through about mid 3rd when he got a full car (like my bumper at his rear bumper) and basically held it there till the top of third where I let off ( i cross the 1/4 mile at the top of third)
we pulled off and the guys jaw was on his lap, called my ride one hell of a sleeper since it looks so stock among other things.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Another thing, the thing has multiple accelerometers that work up down left right forward and backward. If you saw how it worked youd quickly realize that G's measured in every direction show up on the G screen and are accounted for in the computation of your rate of acceleration. The thing actually has a processor inside that works out whats road noise and what is acceleration, and when you download the data into a pc it will refine your measurements even more since the pc has more computing power

You may have read "somewhere" about alot of things being this or that, Id suggest going to the only atleast moderately reliable source and read what the manufacturer has to say about how it works. Hell, try manufacturers of similar devices if you are a conspiracy theorist. Anyway you slice it its better than "somewhere" or from "some guy"

If you REALLY want to argue that the results are meaningless atleast familiarize yourself with how it and things like it work. Try the patent office http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...y=PN%2F5870687 or http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...RS=majstorovic and you can read all about the technical aspects of these devices I believe there are more in the "applied for" section but its not coming up for me right now. If you like you can read about how accelerometers and such are used in all kinds of weapons systems, aircraft, etc on all the other patents that came up when i searched for "accelerometer". So its not just voodoo my friend, its called science. Cant blame you though, when electricity began powering peoples light bulbs there were plenty of regular decent folk like yourself who thought it was the devils handiwork aswell

As far as the times the car ran, like i said, it will be faster than that anyways in due time and at most every other track in the country for that matter. So even if the pixie dust inside of this thing jiggled loose and it gave me a faster time than it should have I sure hope it was much faster or else it will still look pretty good in other circumstances

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

oh and one more thing that I forgot to mention initially is that this was done on 87 octane

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

hey pablo, if your doing so well with the carb, why switch back to tbi? Its only going to be a restriction. The tbi will never be able to match the carb. I guess theres the old 'i did it because i could' and 'lookie what i did' factor when you get it to go but to me it just seems like id have to be a real sucker for abuse to switch back to the tbi after i got it working so well witht he carb. the only efi project taht could pull me away from a carb would eb maybe an HSR or a tpis miniram with a 7730 ecm. Thats just my opinion on it and im sure youll differ...

TonyC

iTrader: (1)

Why not switch back to TBI? Why not try something new? Why not try and be a leader in your field? It's kinda' exciting to see what this injection system has been doing lately. It's gone from a 16 second "dump that trash and go to TPI" system to something that is slowly gaining respect, even the aftermarket recognizes the demand now. We still don't know the true potential of it. Maybe it's not worth investigating what it can do, but since it comes with our cars, it's cheapest and easiest just to work with it. Things like this provide hope for us Toilet Bowl Injection-ers

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

because TBI gives much better under peak torque and gas mileage and, its fun to me. I said i wanted to run these times with TBI from the beginning and I plan on going for it.

BTW do you have facts to support your statement about TBI not being able to match carburetion? Thats a pretty broad statement.