Pablo

iTrader: (1)

and really its not that hard once you have the right tools

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Vis a vis the 2 in tbi would probably be able to make the same ammount of power as a 500 cfm carb but its still airflow limitied. Tahts a fact taht the numbers support. There is the talk that the tpi stuff uses the similar sized butterflies and the tbi should make as much power but that overlookes the fact that the plenum volume of the carb/tbi intakes is pretty small in comparison and just isnt enough to prevent the tbi from being overwhelmed by a healthy revving motor. This is not to say that power cant be made with the 2 bbl tbi but a good 750+ cfm carb will flow more, make less vacuum at WOT, and more power. I dont think anyone could argue against that. I personally love my tbi system but if going fast was my main goal the tbi wouldnt be my first choice. Int he end i guess its all up to the end user as to what trade-offs he/she is willing to make between performance/reliability/fuel economy.

brodyscamaro

It has been my expereince that the aftermarket isn't recognizing it all that much. Hell, you got a Holley 670 CFM TB and maybe a few other things as well. And when I go to the track, cruises, or hang-outs I just don't see TBI vehicles there kicking ***. I'm not saying that it would be impossible, but I don't think it's gaining anything in the "real world". Only a few people on this website making it into the high 13s......

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

What you are ignoring is that plenum volume is not a constant in this equation. Most carb manifolds are cast with shorter plenums than they should have anyways because of hood restraints. The idea is that its easier to add a spacer than to have your manifold milled down. As for the TBI unit not flowing enough air, that may be true. Thatsn ot to say that it cant be improved upon.
Either way you still dont have well documented and researched emprical evidence to say that is the case or not


Another thing, I wasnt aware of there being that much of a difference in plenum volume between your average single plane and say a mini ram. Would you happen to have those numbers on hand?

brodyscamaro

I don't know what the difference is, but since you know there's not a lot please help me and tell me the numbers.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

i dont know how much documentation you have to see to show that a 750 or 800 cfm wet flow carb will outflow a 500 cfm wet flow tbi. Computer aside, the fuel is introduced in a similar way so I think just looking at the flow numbers will tell the story. As for the itnake, running a good single plane isnt really an option if they want to keep their stock hood adn not get a cowl induction hood. Even with a oe style dual plane and a 1/4 in adapter, getting an aircleaner on the tbi was a real PITA. I had only around 3 in of clearence from the base of the tbi to the underside of the hood. Someone here did try several dual and singal plane intakes and he said the only real noticable difference was with a good high rise single plane intake. The low rise single and dual seemed to be equal. IMHO there isnt much more you can do to a stock or aftermarket tbi either to really increase its flow potential.The walls are already pretty thin and there isnt much more material to remove, not to mention the fact that youll run into the air passages behind it if you try to take it over 2 in in dia. This has been shown by someone who has bored one out for use in dfi system. He had to sleeve it to block off the passages, and he onlt went like .1 or .2 in. over. The only other real option if your serious about efi power is to move over to a 4bbl tbi but thats a whole 'nother issue and discussion all together.

JPrevost

About time .
Glad to see some posts of real progress.
I can't wait to go to the track. Every time I've been ready to go something happens, 90% of my delays have been weather or money related, the other 10% has been the tracks themselves being closed . I have plans for a 13.5 @ 104 this summer in the heat and humidity on 245/50-16 radials. I would love to be in the 12's with this motor on drag radials but I'll have to get the car's weight down to a nice 3100 without me.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

this is getting off subject but..

brody: I didnt say I knew, thats why I was asking. All I know is that a general rule of thumb for sizing the plenum is 1:1 ratio cubic inches to plenum volume or even higher like 1.5:1. For example, a superram has about 383 ci in plenum volume. Thats the only one I know offhand


Dimented, I never said a tbi will outflow a carb with a higher flow flow rating, thats uh, pretty obvious. An intake tract isnt made up of just one component though and defficiencies in one part can be made up for by another part. If we are going to start talkig about what one manifold or another is going to make your car look like because of hood changes then we are getting into another subject entirely and that is aesthetics which is something that doesnt concern me when Im talking about horsepower


"Someone here did try several dual and singal plane intakes and he said the only real noticable difference was with a good high rise single plane intake. The low rise single and dual seemed to be equal."

first off ive visited this message board (the tbi board) since its inception almost daily and ive never seen that post which is remarkable because It would have surely caught my interest. Ill have to search the archives.

Secondly, that statement to me is pretty meaningless since it sounds about as unscientific as you can get. There are maybe 3 people on this message board that even know how to tune for different kinds of manifolds and combinations such that they could accurately tell you whether there was a difference or not. I know it wasnt one of them. On top of that, it would go against the grain of what people like david vizard, smokey yunick, etc say about manifolds with common plenums requiring less carburetor than those with a split plenum (IIRC 30% less?), My own observations of common plenum manifolds requiring WAY more pump shot, and jetting changes.. I dunno but that seems pretty far from "same"

but we are getting off subject and you guys are just mad, being smart alecks that im running similar times to your worked over 350s lol So now its my job to show you how wrong wrong wrong you are in every way

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

BTW im not saying I will be able to match my performance with the TBI, it could very well be that I cannot but I wont know till I try. Plenum volume changes and tweaks on the 2 bbl like milling the throttle shaft, knife edging the throttle blades, radiusing the bore inlets, and adjusting the injector pod height will be my plan of action. We'll see what happens

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

From the way you made your posts cam across to me, it sounded as though you claimed that you could meet or beat a carb setup, i guess i misinterprited you.
I personally couldnt care less what my car looks like but the cowl induction hoods are epensive. I wold love to run a single plane but i jsut cant afford teh hood and im stuck witht eh stock one for now. That was the point i was trying to make, not aestetics.



its there... ill see if i can dig it up...

Everyone always makes it sound like that the 305 is a little four cylinder engine with a tiny-tiny bore with pistons the size of thimbles that isnt capible of anything. its still a V8, it still has 300+ cubic inches of displacement. It still has reasably large bore with a decent stroke like the 350, i dont see any reason why it shouldnt be able to make power close to that of a similarly equiped 350. The only hiderence is the difference of 45 cubes and a smaller bore.

Oh, and your absolutly right, we are off topic. I guess ill end this here.

brodyscamaro

Pablo, Pablo, Pablo, I hope you are not referring to me. I'm not trying to be disrepectful, and you know for quite some time we have shared the same opinions about many things. I just questioned the Gtec credibility, and that comment you made about intakes (which I mentioned I didn't know any better).
Although your times are pretty similar to mine (13.8 @ 100) ..... (my 60' was 2.2 though and i was missing out on the top of second and all of third gear, weak fuel pump).

JPrevost

Pablo, I finally got lockers running. MUCH needed data capture is a time saver. A wideband o2 is just waiting for a bung to be welded in. Do you have a wideband?

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I just got my wideband running today Jprevost... Im GRINNING FROM EAR TO EAR ITS THE FRIGGIN COOLEST TOY YOU CAN GET

Right away I found that my carb is jetted too rich.. and that its a TERRIBLE fuel mixer for part throttle.. dude, my afr moves around like its cool but its usually RICH AS HELL even though at wot on the primaries only its about right or just a hair lean! hows that for some ****e

on the top end its still rich but closer, low and mid 12s.. but once i get way up there it starts going WAY rich like 12 flat above 5500.. i might have to open up the high speed airbleeds a touch

once again, its the coolest thing every, everyone needs one!

Yes id like to get lockers working but in the meantime Id first like to get Joby's program working. Get this, my puter doesnt have a serial port... any idea on that? ive heard about parallel to serial and USB to serial adapters.. my WB came with something that looks like an ethernet to serial adapter.. any idea if any of those will work?



brody hehe im just talking smack man thanks for being a good sport about it.

Beast5spdGTA

What WBO2 did you get? I just got one from inovative technologies, $350 complete with data loging, nice looking toy, but haven't used it yet. Still need to make a y-pipe for my hooker LTs on the 350 TPI car.

Just hitting some points you mentioned...

It'll be interesting to see if you can run the same time or better with a TBI in place of the carb.

Just going off of some dyno runs, the difference b/w 12.0 and mid to high 12s for A/F porbably is no more than 1-4 hp at the HP levels we're talking about.

Also I hear Moroso has good track prep for test and tune nights, so it might be worth it to drive a few hrs for a real baseline when the weather gets a little better. Who knows maybe you'll be the first to put a NA 2bbl TBI 305 into the 13s.


As for my car since it's mentioned in here incorrectly, it has run a best of 14.48 @ 96.28 mph with a 2.1x 60' at Orlando. This is a full weight car ~3500 lbs w/ driver. Doing the Ultimate TBI mods and some more tuning gained me nothing, although track conditions were somewhat worse (March vs. June).

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I got the one from tech edge in australia , WBo2.com

it was 350 minus the sensor it uses an LSU sensor that is about 30 dollars.


1-4 hp? Well ill have to find out... My gut is to say that its more than that, I can definately feel the power drop when it starts getting into the low 12s and two jet sizes bigger was a significant loss in power. We'll see though, im gonna rejet it and go for another run see if my mph improves any..

oh and ive been to moroso dozens of times its a terrible track IMHO, you get maybe 3 runs in for the whole night its so crowded. Its hot, its humid, and its 3hours away

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Good move. The Innovative Technology unit is light years ahead of the techedge unit in design, functionality and accuracy.

Anyone looking for a WB should definately look at the Innovative unit:

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/


RBob.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

G-D wish I had seen that one when I went looking to buy one... MFer , oh well


edit:

Perhaps i spoke too soon, did some research and the innovate one doesnt seem to come with the module that enables you to log rpm and other analogue inputs. From what I understand you have to purchase that seperate and has not come out yet. So right now the thing doesnt really have a logging capability, just visual. I cant really speak for their accuracy either and Im not sure many people can being that both of these units just came out recently and id imagine youd have to do some testing on both in a controlled environment to determine their accuracy. Their webpage sure is slick though and If I believed everything I read Id say sure that thing looks like it has NASA technology.

Rbob, why exactly is the innovate more accurate and how much more are we talking about

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

and bear in mind Im going to tend to take what you say with a grain of salt what with you being "in" with grumpy and apparently TE pissed him and your little clique off LOL

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The choice is between a unit that has been designed by engineers that have experience in electronic design (Innovative) or by someone that this is their first attempt at design (techedge). On top of that the techedge unit was rushed out the door.

Then take in the fact that techedge has a history of shipping units with sub-standard parts. Parts that have caused failures when the weather was out of the nice range (like Canada in the winter and Florida in the summer).

Then take in the fact that techedge has no calibration equipment. Innovative Technologies has taken the time and used its resources to build a gas bench, to purchase calibration gases. The folks at Innovative tech are concerned about building a lasting business selling WB units and supporting their customers.

techedge needs a support list because of the 'thrown-together' aspect of the unit. Silkscreens on connectors are reversed, component leads touching and shorting out. Even their simple simulated narrow band output was dismal in operation.

Here is a link to another group where Klaus from Innovation discusses their unit:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=393330

Highly recommended.

The bottom line is how much is your engine worth? Multiple thousands of dollars? It isn't the right place to cheap-out on a WB unit.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

With this statement it is obvious that you do not know me at all. Maybe you should mention that aspect of techedge that has troubled many, many people. . .

RBob.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Right on;
Good answer, sounds well supported enough. I buy it... too bad I allready "bought"it, the tech edge one that is. But thank you for clearing that up. And no, I dont know you all that well but you seem to be a reasonable man so ill take your word on it. As far as "that aspect" of their business.. Icant say I know the whole story one way or another so Im not passing judgement. Suppose just a gut feeling about things which ill keep to myself.


For the record, the only complaints I have are one that you mentioned (it seems it was rushed out the door), no software came with it, andbasically zero documentation, just a sheet of paper with a minimumof information, I.e. no information about the mentioned ability for firmware upgrades and calibration. I was expectinga bit more. That was a bit of a dissapointment. Although I stillhave not tried the logger functionof thething or the added inputs everything seems to be functioning as advertised and looks the same. Perhaps indeed the innovative unit is a better value but this one seems to work adequately for my purposes thus far.

jpk91rs

First, let me say that I am new to this TBI stuff. I have had some guys around here,(East Texas) that say I can't run low times at the track with a computer and tbi. I say BS. They made me mad and I am going to prove me wrong.

Second, Belkin components sells a Serial port to a USB adaptor. Can be bought at Comp USA, Best Buy, Or Circuit City and the such. Price around $40.00. It works with my GPS Receiver very good.

Third, Keep the knowledge flowing to those of us that are less fortunate and we will try to do the tbi proud.

Thanks for the wealth of info you guys are sharing.

jpk91rs

I meant to say prove them wrong. Dang, need spell check, or a secretary to proof these posts.

dennis6

4 barrel TBI can be fast... 2 barrel is about as smart as building up a 305. Not too many people bragging about 2 barrel carbs and trying to prove they are fast. 2 barrel TBI units have problems breathing past 300hp.

It is not impossible to have a fast 2 barrel setup, it is just uneconomical. TBI as designed by GM is not a performance application, look at the Holley 4 barrel unit if you want performance.

Grumpy

:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Dont be SkeRrd Grumpy! Im sure your 13.7 @100 mph SUPER ENGINEERED 350 (bigger cam, better heads, 45 more ci, lighter car.. GRUMPY TUNING) will still look good next to my 305 to some people bwhaha

JesasaurusRex

iTrader: (3)

Ive been gone 2 long, well back from Marine Corps bootcamp and bump into this thread lol, k first of all I got my weight from www.autotrader.com and that is with out me in it, and um everything else is right, except my carb was pretty messed up (anybody whos seen the video can vouch for that) but ya my times werent 2 impressive, I wont lie about that.

JesasaurusRex

iTrader: (3)

Minus the weight of the **** i pulled out like my back seat and spare tire. So autotrader weight minus that crap.

Beast5spdGTA

Here's a push for Pablo to make it to Moroso. Recently(~10/17/03)I went there in my '89 TPI, TBI(swirl port) headed 350, 5 speed. Guess what, it ran 14.28 @99.xx mph, and 14.4x @98.xx with 2.05 and 2.07 60' times on $54 Kuhmo tires. The car f*cking hooked from a 3K clutch drop, how much more traction do you want. This car spins at least 50' on command from less than 10 mph on the street.

Anyone dispusting Pablo's power or my 14.48 @96+ mph (at Orlando), feel free to contact me for a heads up race in the tri-state area(NY , NJ, CT) with a stock 350 TPI car and I'm sure my stock TBI 305 will embarrass you and those who bet with you this late Dec. and early Jan.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Hey devils advocate, Congrats Devil, and i mean Devil Dog! I was in your shoes 2.5 years ago almost 3 since I stood on the yellow footprints in Parris Island. I know the feeling of finally getting out of that hellhole. Granted you probably did go to MCRD san diego but I wont hold it against you

I take it you are on boot leave, enjoy it. MCT is alot better, more fun if thats where you are going. If its ITB then good on ya. What MOS are you headed to? I am an aircraft mechanic here on Camp Pendleton. If you end up out here give me a holler.



Beast,

You must have missed my various other threads about me making it out to the track out here in california where I now have the car.

Just last saturday I ran a 13.76@104.97 mph at carlsbad raceway with a 2.26 60 foot (forgot to air down my drag radials, only had one run)
you can read about all the details in this post
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=208669

92rsv8

for you two devildogs... i am a devil doc. hopefully you know what that is. its suprising i know as much about cars as i do since my area of expertise is medical.

JesasaurusRex

iTrader: (3)

Hey bro thats some crazy ****, ya I went to MCRD San Diego not the island lol hold it against me all you will we got crazy hills, as you must now since your at Camp Pendleton. Im going to ITB (infantry training battalion) 0300 for life baby, I love humpin lol its weird I like that ****. Anywayz so ya im going down to Camp Pendleton on the 11th hopefully they give us weekends off now. They told us we dont but everybody that ive talked to that went through it said we do. Ill hit you up 4 sure one of those weekends ill email ya.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

hey 92RSv8 I love you guys, thats cool. I actually picked up on some corpsman chick a few weeks ago , lol , a little hotty, didnt go anywhere though there are enough marines humping her leg


and devils addvocate, thats cool man. I wish I was in a combat arms MOS. Enjoy it, alot of marines start to not even feel like marines any more doing a job like mine.

Grumpy

And I quote:
I used to be a moderator here and basically kicked off the whole TBI movement as you know it (ok it wasnt single handed ) but there once was a time when there was no tbi board
there once was a time when tbi was never even modded, no one ever put a carb manifold under tbi much less a single plane, and so on and so forth

Like I said, :hail: :hail:

Lots of folks spent lots of time trying to get to the bottom off what to do to get a TBI to run.
Cracking the 747 is what got the TBI movement going, as well as most of the GM reverse engineered code work. And alot of folks put alot of time into that.
I just believe in giving credit where credit is due.

And if you want to mince words on the 13.7, fine by me, after all I did that about 6 years ago, and things weren't nearly as refined as they are now. Not to menion there still aren't many Crossfires running mid thirteens 350 or not.

Super Engineered?
Comp Cam 270, the old vette AL heads, 9.5:1 CR. The new crate engines are much better then the combo I ran. While that 13 was 6 years ago, the engine was assembled almost 10 years ago, has a bunch of miles of it, endless passes, and is still running.

Yep, did alot of tuning to get that out of it, and experimenting.
Also, ran alot of chips in it verifing were the various tables were, and how they worked. Back then no Tunercat, No GMEPRO, No GMedit.

Pete, Ludis, Ward, John, Scot, Shannon, Kevin, and the list just goes on and on, for the guys that should get the credit for getting EFI stuff off the ground. They're the ones that did the heavy lifting.

92rsv8

yes corpsman chicks are freakkkkssss!!!
you gotta watch out though stay away from the std's.....

JesasaurusRex

iTrader: (3)

That one hispanic corpsman at MCRD looks pretty ****in good, anybody else seen her?

JesasaurusRex

iTrader: (3)

DRESS BLUEIN'

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

hehehehahahehehehaoaoehehaha

Grumpy said
"Comp Cam 270, the old vette AL heads, 9.5:1 CR. The new crate engines are much better then the combo I ran. While that 13 was 6 years ago, the engine was assembled almost 10 years ago, has a bunch of miles of it, endless passes, and is still running."

hahahahah hahahahha


hey grumpy, hwo about this, NO name cam (much smaller than yours, only 214/224), iron POS cyl heads that i home ported, 305 CI, cheapo single plane, dished pistons, bottom end of Unknown parts car origin with unknown mileage, 10:1 cr

13.76@104.97 mph 2.26 60', 3.42 gears

at carlsbad race way southern california..

Oh dont mind me Im just laughing at you hahahahahah

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

hey devil, dont make me post mine sporting the blood stripe

JesasaurusRex

iTrader: (3)

lol damn NCOS :hail:

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Not to offend anyone but 13 sec. carbed V8 cars arnt anything new. Speaking to some of my college friends and it seems like everyone and their grandmother has a 13 second carbed this or that. Now, a 13 second tbi fed near stock 305 that pulls those trapspeeds would definatly be unique and impressive.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Find me someone with a 305 street car (not a track only deal) that traps 105 mph or more. I posted a thread on another thirdgen.org message board and its been up a few days and the only people with faster trap speeds are track only cars. Only one of them really, the other traps about the same.

TBI is not that much different than a carb they both mix gas and air. I wish people would stop making it out to be something so much more mysterious than that.

You make it sound like TBI is at an automatic disadvantage for some reason. If that were the case then you wouldnt see me trying to go back to it. The only disadvantage is that JUST hoping it will run ok will typically fall terribly short from your goals whereas you can hope your carb runs OK and alot of the time it will right out of the box.

I dont mean to toot my own horn but a car with a 105 mph trap speed with a weight of 3250 lbs with driver such as mine is developing somewhere near 350 hp according to the age old trap speed to hp calculation.
thats over 1.1 hp per cubic inch. Find me another 305 with numbers like that. I know im not the only one but I havent seen anyone come forward with better numbers. Grumpy certainly hasnt produced them even with his 350 that he has previously stated he has run a carb on and run the same times.

Grumpy

Was that with a TBI?.

I noticed how quick you've been to get away from the actual mention of your taking credit for others work, which is what my original reply was about.

I was just setting the record straight about who did what.

HavE a NiCe DAy

Grumpy

What in the world is you point other then tooting your own horn?.

I just listed what times I ran with my drive to work Cross Fired 350. It was by no means meant to be a race car.

You might stick to using facts that are your facts, if you want to speak negatively about what I've done. Just use your own info and testing to support what your point is.

BTW, in case you've never noticed, I don't see drag racing as the only reason to tune a car, or run EFI. I do it for the fun of it. I don't race to support my ego, I do it just for the fun of it. If I was just out for the numbers, I could easily changes things a little and wind up with a car that I didn't really like, that went fast.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

oh damn, now youve done it, you're getting me started

what other peoples work? none of them had any hand in creating this message board, none of them had any hand on getting the word out there to common folk that you could even mod your stock tbi unit, or, bolt it on to a carb manifold, none of them had any hand in letting the people here know that you can diy your fp regulator into an adjustable, none of them had any hand in getting the word out on the details of ditching the stock restrictive air cleaner..
None of them had any hand in showing the folks here that some ingenuity is possible with their 170hp slugs induction system. Where were you and these other guys when all of this stuff was coming to light here on the TBI board before there was a DIY prom forum, and before I even knew DIY EFI mailing list existed?


You werent here, I can tell you that much, and I wouldnt call being on an obscure-a$s mailing list that a few hermits read "getting the word out". Thirdgen.org has had THOUSANDS of members for a few years now, not a hundred or a couple hundred. I think its up to 30,000 right now.

I dont mean to take away from the guys that have hacked ecms and source code etc but what does that have to do with TBI specifically?

Nothing really, thats engine management, and ill gladly give those that deserve it credit where its due in that arena, and its a very important arena indeed.

I should point out that you have wasted more of my time than I care to recognize. I look back at some of the stuff youve written that was just pure nonsense guesses and wish I knew then what I know now, that you are a bombastic poseur.

LoL i remember you saying specifically that this combo wasnt going to be good for much more than what I ran on a poor overly rich tune (because its so easy to run lean and blow your motor bits.. just like that, boom) when i ran a 14.8@93 mph

buzz off man, i have told you numerous times i dont care to hear your responses and really wouldnt mind if you just dissapeared alltogether.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

ahahaha so now you are implying my car is a race car.. yes indeed its performance may be akin to a race car in your eyes but its completely streetable and i drive it everywhere with no problem. From here to san diego just the other night on a whim in fact

and you may not see performance out of a performance car ( in the sense that most NORMAL people view performance in a performance car) as a major concern but that doesnt change the fact that that is merely your OPINION and generally NOT SHARED by most people driving F bodies and visiting this site.
If most people on this site had perfect driveability and economy higher up on their list than what I will call performance then 95% of the threads on here would disappear

Grumpy

Yep, I've been seeing them alledged 13 sec cars about make their owners cry, when they actually take it out and then run 15s. Been seeing it since the 60's. I've also seen alot of new cars that are supposed to run 13s never do it.

Grumpy

Glad ya said 305, the 89 Turbo Trans Am's do that with hardly breathing hard. A fuel pump/FPR, chip, and exhaust will get one doing that.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

btw if anyone doubts my times are legit you are cordially invited to carlsbad raceway this saturday so you can witness them for yourself

Sorry for dragging this out like this folks but there are some things that just get me started

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

what is your point?