Fredless

For all the people that say the 305 stock FPR will not give a 350 enough gas, you are f.o.s. by my experiences. So far, my BRAND NEW 350 H.O. crate motor has been disastorously slow. When my 305 ran great with minor bolt ons, it could literally kick the crap out of the car now. Hell my moms 3.3 Minivan could kick my ***! WTF AM I DOING WRONG!?!?! Our 1994 3.4 is in the paper for sale and if I hadn't have dumped hours and hours of work and over 3000 dollars into this swap, the damn 92 would be in the paper instead because the 3.4 can run circles around this car, well always could. Pardon for the long long post but I'm just about as discouraged as I've ever been and I've spent so much money on this swap. All I wanted was a reliable daily driver that I could beat 3800 II motors with and RUN with 5.0 Mustangs...Not happening so far.

I have the GMPP 350 H.O. crate motor. I can post the head and cam specs if anyone can't find them.

I have the GMPP Vortec TBI manifold, with the crappy 1-1/16 inch bores. What was GM thinking to make the manifold with that small of bores to be used on 350 and up c.i. motors?

I also bought the MSD 6A box (another 200 dollar waste, that damn thing does nothing, if it does I sure as hell do not notice it.) GM blaster coil and MSD wires. I'm running stock distributor though. Could not having the MSD distributor make my car run this damn SLOW?!

I have Flowtech headers (yeah yeah I know, crapiest headers ever made DO NOT BUY THEM!), nice 2.5" y-pipe with complete 2.5" exhaust to a flowmaster 80 series (I have a straight pipe now). Pretty sure my exhaust is free flow enough for this motor.

I have an Ultimate TBI'ed throttle body, using two injector gaskets to space it more, using CFM-TECH 1" TBI spacer, using stock FPR and 305 injectors. YES I GET PLENTY OF FUEL!!! If I run the JET APFR turned all the way down and run 305 injectors it runs WAY to rich all the way through the band and is extremely hard to start and stalls at lights due to flooding. Get this! I bought 350 Cop car injectors (65/lb hr) and I installed them with the stock FPR for a 305 and it made my car SLOWER!! It idled a tad better, but if I floored it the car would shake a tad and blow black smoke out the pipes like mad. WTF is the deal with that?!?

Also, what is the correct way to adjust the kickdown cable that goes to the transmission? It seems like the problem to me is that the engine just does not rev high like it used to. Is this something that is different between the 305 and 350 engines? I drove my friends IROC-Z with the L98 with K&N filters as a mod ran like a damn V8 should! It revved high like my old L03 would when I WOT'ed it.

I'm running STOCK 2.73 gears, stock torque converter, 350 stage 1 chip from TBI chips with 108mph speed limiter removed as well as EGR. One anomaly is I have yet to get a brass reducer bushing to get the CTS to fit in the manifold so the ECM thinks the engine is -27* all the time.

I also just changed the transmission fluid just for the hell of it.

ANY IDEAS PLEASE!

grover85

iTrader: (1)

To adjust the kick down is easy. All you do is push the metal button on the cable by the tb. and grap the cable that goes down to the trans and pull it all the way back to the fire wall. then turn the tb. to wide open throtle. The cable will ratchet into place then you will be set.
Thinking about your slowness problem. One thing comes to mind. Timing. What is your intial timing set at??? I have mine set at 10 degrees btc. But my motor has a pritty hot cam in it.
Thats all I can think of hope it helps.

BronYrAur

iTrader: (1)

With that setup you should really get Winaldl and a laptop and get some readings so you can see what's going on with it. Even without a custom prom for it I would think it would run still far more powerful than the lo3, sounds like you have a serious problem. Get winaldl and post some readings on here I'm sure some guys here can help you out with that then.

HaulnA$$

You cannot expect the car to run well with the CTS not installed. It cannot be stressed enough how critical of a sensor this is. :nono: Hook it up, then as mentioned, do some data logging. I think you will find that the engine will come to life when you hook up the CTS and the data logging will help you zero in on fine tuning.

Fredless

HaulinA$$ you are the first one to actually stress how important the CTS is. But, its the only thing i can say.. I seriously don't think its a timing problem because if its set otherwise, it won't start right or run right or knock like crazy. We found the 'sweet spot' you might say so far.

I didn't know the CTS would make it run so slow...I'll go down to home depot tomorrow morning to get that brass reducer bushing I need and buy a CTS. If it still runs slow as nuts like it is now, I'll drive it down to my friends house who has the Winadl setup and do some logging.

IROCaholic

Dude , fredless , I am sorry that the injectors didnt work man , you never told me it was the gmpp 350 ho , I figured you had like an Lo5 , you should be able to crush a 3800 car, I knew a guy with a firebird w/ 3.08 gears who had the 350 ho and he ran high 13's all day long , there has got to be something seriously wrong , you need a 670 cfm tbi , the stock tbi cant handle 300 hp dude thats got to be killing you right there. ultimate tbi mods arent enough you need more air flow for a gmpp 350 ho , your choking it . 400 cfm cant supply air to a 300 hp engine.Good luck man.

Fredless

400cfm on this motor should still get me to BEAT my old L03 performance though...How can that alone be choking me down to like 140hp?

IROCaholic

Its like starving your engine, you can be the fastest runner in the world but if you try to run a marathon breathing through a straw your not going any where.

JR305

Not having the CTS in is probably why you are running so rich at idle. The ECM seeing -27 degrees is throwing in way more fuel than it should. I also think that’s why you can only get the 305 injectors to run you engine. Second, you cannot just change out injectors with out telling the ECM what size they are. The chip that you bought, if it is a 350 chip should be calibrated to use 55pph injectors. Your engine will need at least the 65pph probably more. I think JPrevost is running the same crate engine with the 454 injectors.

Once you get that CTS hooked up get someone to burn you a chip with the correct BPW constant for the 65pph injectors. Also the cam you are running is 212/222 right, do you know the LSA? I haven't seen what the stage one chip looks like but I'd bet it does not have near enough timing. This will also cause you to run rich as well. I would also contact who ever made that chip for you and ask them what you should have your base timing set at.

Even with the stock throttle body you should be faster than the old 305.

Fredless

Ok, I bought the bushing so the CTS will fit. Once I put it in, I'll start tuning from there. Like I said, now that I think about it, EVERYTHING has been tuned around that important piece missing. Could be everything is out of whack. The 350 H.O. calls for 7 btc timing, I think. 7 degrees advanced I believe?

Fredless

CTS did nothing as far as power goes. It did however make it idle better.

I'm about to say screw it and just live with it being slow so I can just get me through college and when I graduate and get a job, I'll get a 1998 up LS1 F-body, GTP or Mustang GT to use a daily driver. I want to take this car to the grave with me because it is my second car and is 25th anniversary etc. Those sixties V6 mustangs are slow but they're collectable. Hoping my 1992 will be like that in 30 years

92WhiteRS

I just want to ask you one question...have you changed your ESC module and your knock sensor? Believe it or not, this caused me a whole 1.8 seconds in the quarter as well as around 12mph (well, along with the 45# injectors). Also...you do need 65# injectors. Your car will run lean on 45# injectors unless you are running alot of fuel pressure, which isn't good for the injectors anyway. My suggestion is to get a chip and then look at winaldl and get your car tuned. You should be able to run faster than a L98 with your setup, even with the ultimate TBI. Don't go blow money on the bigger TBI until you get the car actually running right. Oh, and by the way, once you do get your combo up and running you probably want to step up to 3" exhaust.

JR305

Don't give up on it.

Is it still very rich at idle? Your still running the 305 injectors right? What do your spark plugs look like?

Fredless

Yes, esc module and knock sensor were bought for a 350, knock sensor was the first sensor installed on the crate motor.

No, it never ran rich at idle with the stock FPR and stock injectors. Never really ran rich with stock FPR and 65/pph injectors either AT IDLE. It ran rich when I WOT and the car shuttered like crazy and accelerated like a lawn mower.

I'm assuming the spark plugs are OK because they are brand new delcos installed when the motor was dropped in. We gapped at .048 or around there because I knew I'd be running the MSD box, wires and coil. I'll take one off thats easy to get to with the headers when I change the break in oil tomorrow and update.

Is .048 about the correct gap I should be at?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

(with attitude) I've read this thread a couple of times and can not comprehend the trouble you are in without you realising it. The GMPP HO is a 330 HP engine:

GMPP 350 HO. Cubic inches: 350. Horsepower: 330 at 5,000 rpm. Torque: 380 lb-ft at 3,800 rpm.

Is this correct?

Then you are going to need a heck of a lot more injector then 65 #/hr's. Either get a BBC TBI and set the fuel pressure at 18 psi or use the ones you have (the 65's) and set the fuel pressure at 28 psi.

Then get the PROM burning/tuning/editing equipment required to tune this engine. Until tuned this engine wil be pig rich at idle and dead lawn-mower lean at speed. Ditch the TBI fuel pump and get a serious fuel pusher.

Vortec heads too?! The current timing is so far off it isn't even funny. Search out the net for iron headed LT1 timing tables. Very close to what is required and a heck of a good start.

For a tuning intro see the DIY EPROM board, very first sticky. . .

RBob.

Fredless

No offense, but those numbers are coming from a tuned holley 600CFM carbuerator. The TBI I'm running flows NO WHERE near that amount. The cars power runs on an air fuel mixture right? Whats the point of throwing MORE FUEL when i'm not even close to that 600CFM number? With the 65 pph injectors the car runs PIG RICH AT WOT. It runs FINE at idle. You DO NOT NEED that much fuel if my setup is not flowing that much air. If you do not believe me, please by all means come to my house and fix this thing. I will throw on the JET APFR turned all the way down and show you how rich it runs, even under heavy throttle. I do not plan to get this motor into its max RPM ANYTIME soon (5500), my current gear (2.73) and torque converter (stock) will not even allow me to touch that range unless I manually shift it up. Again, I'm not going on what johnny f-body did to his pimped out ride, yeah someone like that may need all that fuel but I'm sure they're flowing more air than me. So far, I find all the people that told me that I needed extreme PSI for my TBI full of crap because A)They have a much more radical setup than me or B)They never have touched a TBI car in their life and they go by 'hear say'. Again, this is all from my personal experience so PLEASE do NOT Flame me, I do not want to start an "I'm smarter than you flame war and i'm a mechanic blah blah."


A new problem has come up since the computer has gotten used to the CTS now, I've driven the car about 2 hours with the CTS hooked up rather. Coming home from work tonight, I hit the gas about 1/2 throttle to accelerate and I heard a pop that sounded like it was coming from the throttle body. It made the engine die for a split second, I left of the gas and the motor came back. This was all from rolling starts. Once I got up to 55, I hit the gas about 1/4 throttle, same thing again and continued to do it. If I wanted to accelerate, I had to lightly push the pedal or it would pop from the TBI. I think its backfiring through the TBI, which it did while we were intially setting the timing. Which makes me think that now the CTS is in, the timing is all frigged up again because the car started getting louder and deeper in tone.

From the manual that came with my crate motor:
Max engine speed - 5700 RPM
Spark timing - 10* BTDC@ 700RPM (This setting will produce 32* of total advance at WOT)

I'll talk to the guy who helped me put in the motor, right now the distributor plugs are kinda facing the fire wall, he said it was really advanced? Just keep turning the distributor counterclockwise to advance it right?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

No offense taken. It just becomes frustrating reading this stuff about pushing cars off cliffs.

As for your timing, you need a timing light to set it. Nothing else will work. You have replaced the original engine with a high performance engine. It now needs to be tuned. You or someone else needs to change many parameters within the chip (EPROM) to recalibrate the ECM for this engine.

Search for JP's posts. IIRC he is running the exact same engine and is in the 13's.

RBob.

edit: please see this post about some modifications and the resulting tuneup. Note how rich his midrange was until the ECM was recalibrated (thanks to 25THRSS for bringing this thread alive again):

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...ht=dyno+tuning

Fredless

I bought a 350 stage 1 chip from tbichips.com and told him what engine I had, I wanted EGR removed, VATS kept and the 108mph speed limiter removed.

My friend that did the swap has a laptop with the winadl cable and tbichips.com will burn custom chips with winadl stats. I'm assuming there is a logging mode in Winadl? But how can I even get accurate stats with the new problem? Set the timing manually and then go from there?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Well, Since you are paying someone to do the chips for you I am bowing out. I probably said too much already.

My recommendation is to get some EPROMs and the equipment to program them yourself. You will find lots of help on the DIY PROM board.

RBob.

Fredless

No problem, I appreciate your input. I'm just an 18 year old kid looking for speed, quick. I'm learning a lot a patience with this whole deal. Time,money effort...Just very frustrating.

I'm taking the car to my friends this afternoon to do some winadl tuning and re-set the timing.

Tom 400 CFI

Popping throught the TB is an indicator (a good one) of too lean a mixture. I agree with others that your injecotrs are undersized. My ~320HP MOTOR RUNS BBC TBI injectors. It isn't much more radical than yours; It's about the same power (rated).

The exhaust getting louder and deeper is and indicator of timing that is too far retarded. Advance it until it pings or your times get worse at a track, and then go back to the last most advanced setting.

The plugs on the distributor facing the firewall -or anywhere for that matter- means nothing, because we don't knwo the orientation of the gear when the dist was dropped in the engine. How the cap is oriented is zero indicator of where timing really is. Get a timing light.

Fredless

Update: Timing was OK and the car has not done that weird thing since, perhaps the computer is still making adjustments.

We have pretty much found the major lack of power - the play in the kickdown cable. I simply bolted down the throttle cable bracket down on the front bolt since it would not line up correctly on the Vortec heads. Even adjusted as tight as possible, it is still not revving high enough. We made it as tight as possible and that alone made a noticeable difference. I'm going down to a speed shop tomorrow to buy the adjustable throttle cable bracket for the Vortec heads made by edelbrock tomorrow.

As I said before it was just not revving near high enough to get power..I thought it was too rich/lean or timing was way off...So far all indicators have pointed to the kickdown cable not being taught enough

mdricken

Sorry to beat this timing subject to death, but when you set the timing did you remember to disconnect the ESC module wire - the tan wire with a connector near the a/c??

I forgot and it retarded the thing about 12 degrees.

Fredless

I took it to mrr23's shop and it was running WAY to rich. Installed the 305 injectors back in and he adjusted the timing correctly. It runs a lot better with the tuning he did and now he is installing a 2200rpm stall converter.

Those of you that say a 305 FPR and injectors WILL NOT POWER a 350, you are full of by my experiences. The cop injectors were a waste of money...Now, if I had bored the manifold out to flow the 600CFM that this motor needs to get 330hp, yes I would need that fuel. For those of you saying I'm running to lean, not according to WinALDL or just by driving it.

tilerob79

hey this might be a stupid question
but what is cts

and does anyone have the link for EBL

kcb37

tilerob79 The cts is a coolant temperature sensor. When it thinks the engine is cold it will cause a rich mixture. It will make the comp choke the engine.

Fredless, as for making speed fast you are looking in the wrong place.
I ill say the first bit should be the easiest, but still it is not always that easy.

Fredless

Are you serious? Old thread; I got an email notification from a thread thats 5 and a half years old. I sold the car back I believe March 2005 I believe and I now own a 2004 Cobra.

When I made that post, I was 2 months out of high school...I barely knew anything about cars back then.

thomas1976

How did it end up running?

Fredless

Wow...

This is hilarious...

Edit - nice edit lol. It ended up running fine per my post I made before with the application. Not a good idea to choke that crate motor down with my particular TBI setup that I had 5 years ago.

Knowing what I know now, easiest/cheapest route would've been just to carb it. I'm sure you guys have made progress since, but there was some guy 5 years ago that was bragging about getting a 13.9 with a 383 TBI combo. He was a tuning master too from what I remember.

Good luck with your cars and digging up old threads...especially this old...is hilarious.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

You are absolutely wrong about it running better than a carb, when compared to a properly dialed in TBI. The TBI will clean the carb engines clock so to speak.

Your issue was lack of fuel and the appropriate advance curve.

This is a TBI 406 in a Regular Cab, Short Bed truck the speedo is in KM/H, but thats still hauling butt.

http://s314.photobucket.com/albums/l...rent=truck.flv

Fredless

Ok...I'm wrong you're right.

Don't care.

Good luck with your cars.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

If you don't care, why spread information without merit.

Your paticular TBI engine sucked because you didn't take the advice that was given to you and use it to your advantage. To this day the stock 55# 305 injectors are too little for a 330+ HP 350 without running 30+ psi to them. To this day I have not heard of any particular success in TBIChips.com mail order chips. There are just too many things in the chip that need to be changed for the engine/car to run and perform well. Two essentially identical engines can be VERY different.

You are right about advances in the TBI area and it has made for some crazy fast cars/trucks. My built up 305/A4 car ran very fast and was still very driveable, running a tuned TBI Truck PCM (1993-1995).

Fredless

You obviously cannot read worth a hoot can you?



Again, can you NOT read what I said? Who are you trying to argue with?

No kidding...really. Things like HPT didn't exist back then, I'm sure tunercat has evolved now or whatever tuning software etc.

That's great...crazy fast to me is sub 10's with a TBI so I'm glad it has evolved to that.

snflupigus

Can we put this one back in the grave please... Thanks.

Is there really any need for anyone to respond any further in this thread?

no.

zapeee

interesting thought. what do you think all those 750HP NASCARs running 200MPH around daytona breathing through two dime-sized holes would say to that?