hydra512

well, ok, so its not a third-gen, but can someone help me out? a friend of mine has a 87 s-10 with a pretty brand new 390 in it. TBI. new 700r4 tranny. ran really good for a while till for some reason when he gets on the gas there is no power. it drives fine at regular RPMs, but once he gets on it, it will rev up but make no power at all. we cant figure out whats wrong with it. he replaced most of the ignition stuff...cap & rotor, plugs, wires, ignition coil. but still the same problem. he took it to a plce to get the timing checked. it had to be advanced a bit, but it still runs like crap. could there be something with the TV cable? oh, and he replaced the fuel pump and filter a little while back. someone had suggested to him that his TB is old and worn out since its got 150k miles on it. any suggestions on whats causing this annoying problem?

brharris27370

Really need to invest in a WINALDL setup to prevent so much guess work. Most likely if are running any kind of modified V8 in there the stock injectors are not providing enough fuel to support a WOT run. Check color of plugs and increase fuel pressure.

88 WS6 TransAm GTA

iTrader: (1)

Maybe its just the fact that it has a TBI on top of it and itll never really have power...

Nate Hanson

Excuse me? My LO5 TBI 350 S10 would walk all over your TPI Trans Am, so before you go bashing TBI, take some time to learn what your really talking about...

Nate

88 WS6 TransAm GTA

iTrader: (1)

Yeah Im sure it would. Learn what Im talking about? Well, I know that people on this board, who shall remain nameless, who have dumped thousands apon thousands of dollars into their "TBI" and can barely break 13's. I think THEY need to learn a thing or two.
Walk all over my TPI? Yeah, you MIGHT be able to, cause I dont have much done to her at the moment. It all comes down to money... yeah my car may not be the fastest around, but it has potential... far less than I can say for and TBI motor.
You TBI'ers just cant take the truth... the moment someone speaks a word of truth you all jump and defend yourselves like you really have something to defend. No, TPI may not be the best induction, but its a whole hell of alot better than TBI.

immortal

If your TPI is so great, why are you on the TBI board trying to get advise? Did you come on this board because all the other TPI people booted you out

MotorCityMuscle

He probably came over here for a good laugh. You guys really crack me up. You just don't get it that TBI wasn't ever intended for high performance. Thats why TBI was used on trucks, Caprice's, economy cars. If you wanted performance, you would order an LB9 or L98 F-body.

And the guy with the S-10, your killin' me here. Wasnt that LO5 only rated for like 190hp? I think his LB9 was rated for either 205 or 230hp. And unless youve done some serious suspension mods, that truck will never hook. His car will. So the next time you guys want to tell someone to learn what theyre talking about, you may want to consider doing the same

iroc22

First off, the L05 was rated at 210hp.

Secondly, the LB9 in '88 was rated 195hp with the peanut cam or 220hp with the L98 cam.

And who knows what he has actually done to his truck? He never did say.

Both you guys are about 2 months late making a point. We already went over the fact with the TPI guys that no TBI owners even have timeslips for hot combos.

99Hawk120

OK, since no one else has asked, I gotta...

What the HELL is a 390?

88 WS6 TransAm GTA

iTrader: (1)

Acually, I frequent these boards for a good laugh, and to help people who have real problems. Threads like "why isnt my car fast" are just begging to be beat on.
On to my car... my Lb9 is a 1992 which is rated at 230 hp. And yes, I have a few nice mods done, and sometimes I can even hook up!

iroc22

So did you put a 92 LB9 into your 88? Did you convert to SD? Or are you still running the original MAF setup?

88 WS6 TransAm GTA

iTrader: (1)

Its the Lb9 in my 92 Vert Down below. The GTA is currently waiting for an engine.

iroc22

Oh ok sorry dude. Didn't know what cars you owned.

88 WS6 TransAm GTA

iTrader: (1)

Its cool man!

Nate Hanson

Well buddy,

I have no problem waxing all the tpi f-body's i want in my s10. Only suspension mods include lowering 3/3 and installed a set of caltracs (http://www.calvertracing.com). I have no problems hooking...just because i have truck does not mean it will hook.I've done just about imaginalbe for the TBI. Cam, intake, headers, roller 1.6 rockers, Ultimate TBI mods, everything else you can think of.

Nate

88 WS6 TransAm GTA

iTrader: (1)

Ultimate TBI... now theres two words that dont belong in the same scentence.
Anyway, you can do all the "waxing" you want, and you probably still wont break 13's... the only thing you have goin for ya is your lighter weight. Some people here have 2 times more mods that you... not just bolt ons... and look at their results.
You seem fairly knowledgable in the field, but what I dont understand is why, out of all the induction systems available, you chose TBI? Guess knowlege can only go so far.

Biochem

Before this gets too far off topic... Did your problem happen after anything being replaced, or did you simply drive the truck one day and it was a dog @WOT? Do you know what your fuel pressure is? Maybe the pump is on its last legs...

Nate Hanson

Say what you want, but I already know what my truck will do..so no need to argue. Why did I choose TBI? Maybe because i already had a TBI 4.3 in my truck, the ease of the swap was a cake walk, it builds a lot more torque and throttle response than a carb, and its cheaper to buy performance parts for. I could spend 10 grand on a induction system for the TPI...but i would rather spend my money on something else...

Nate

88 WS6 TransAm GTA

iTrader: (1)

You would rather spend your money on something else thats more inferior? Is that what your sayin? Oh, and what are these cheaper "performance parts" that you talk of?

And now TBI makes more HP& Torque than a carb? BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!! :sillylol: :sillylol: :sillylol:

You had better quit while your ahead... your really making youself look like more of an *** than you are for putting all that money into a TBI. I swear some of you people are like ricers... theyll just NEVER admit that theyre engine is inferior.

evil t/a

What?!? First off I put my cars throttle response against ANYONES and thatrs with a holley 750 , 200cc heads and a perfomer RPM. IF you know how to tune carbs the throttle response issue becomes a wash , if you dont know anything about tuning a carb the of course it is going to run like crap.. And ALOT morer torque? hmmm put a carb and a tbi unit on a zz4 engine and let me know how much more torque TBI makes , and we already know which one will make more hosepower. As for the cheaper perfomance parts , thats is total bull**** how much are injectors compared to jets , power valves ,pump cams , sping kits and nozzles? If you chose TBI for the ease of installation or in order to have something different then more power to you but please dont make up things in order to justify it.

evil t/a

The converter may be slippng at high rpms ., if I am understanding the question.

Kat

iTrader: (4)

I dont think that I'll be spending anything near 10 grand on my TPI conversion when I do it.. In matter of fact i think I'll spend less converting to TPI than trying to mod TBI and have it work with what I want.. a low 13 second car without any power adder

Kat

Jay

iTrader: (2)

Timeslips? let see them.

LMAO I have an 86 S10 with a CPI 4.3, rated at like 195 hp 270 TQ. Under very light throttle the truck will spin both tires right through the middle of 3rd gear. I don't see how you can possibly hook up unless you put in a AWD system also. My truck HAD TBI and I threw the whole engine and induction in the dumpster where it belonged. \
And as for swapping to TPI being $10,000 what kind of crack are you smoking? I just did a TPI swap on my 86 Firebird, cost me less than $500. And the CPI conversion was only about $1000 when it was all said and done, that includes new fuel lines, pump, new tank, and all the parts to do the swap.

Nate Hanson

Evil, i was refering to the price of the TPI System for the high costs. Carb engines are obvisoulsy cheaper to build.

Jay, I honestly do no have a horrible traction problems as you state with your truck.

I don't want to start anything here guys, I'm just stating that I really like my TBI system, and for that guy to come here and start bashing TBI kinda pisses me off.

Nate

ds83z28

you tpi guys just dont get it do you?your not welcome here . stay outta are part of town we'll stay outta yours.

evil t/a

I am not a TPI guy , I am a car guy and I can veiw and post on any board at thirdgen. This isnt your own private little club , no matter what NJspeeder wants people to think.

iroc22

Uh dude the most torque that the 4.3 CPFI ever had was 260tq, most commonly they had 250tq; the difference was in the cams. Was that number dyno'd?

Rob P

iTrader: (1)

I just wanna see some timeslips on this S10. Put up or shut up!

88 WS6 TransAm GTA

iTrader: (1)

If were not wanted, then this should be labeled a private forum with a password needed to enter. Until then, we will try to educate the people who have been miseducated into thinking TBI is a worthwile induction. Nuff' said.

Slade1

No offense to anyone, but my stock 305 car with TBI walked all over a stock 305 with a Holley 650 Carb.

Results at our dyno had me pulling 255ft/lb at the rear wheel while he barely broke 230 ft/lb and the hp was 150 rwhp for me vs 142 rwhp for the carb. So that's the end of the carb vs TBI debate.

As for bigger carbs, well guess what, there's bigger TBI's as well good up to 400 hp for the 670 Holley TBI. As for a 305 performance setup tbi.. its just that if we had the money, don't you think we would have bought something better? Is it hard to believe that a TBI can make power not really... I would have dumped my tbi if I hadn't witnessed a 305 TBI pull a 12.9 on the 1/4 mile myself. I also won't dump my TBI since dependability wise, its a proven system over TPI (where TPI holds a performance edge over TBI) That was with the dream 305 setup with holley 670 tbi, vortec heads, some big *** manifold, big cam, edelbrock headers, MSD ignition 3.73 and slicks.

Biochem

No doubt! If it wasn't for the fact that people are making fun of this TBI forum on multiple boards, I wouldn't have even known about this post to try and offer assistance


-=Not a TPI guy Racing=-

Biochem

I guess you are right... that is the end of this age-old debate! Thank you Slade1 for your years of effort and gigabytes of data supporting your theories and results! I personally shall never argue that a carb can outperform a TBI in any forum ever again!!!

evil t/a

You failed to mention that it was an lg4 engine. But you are right the carb vs. TBi debate is over and carbs win by K.O. Tbi isnt even close to either in perfomance. We have blow 305's running 15's and blown 350's barely hitting 300 hp at the rear wheels.

Slade1

Well you don't need years of data to prove carbs are a bit outdated, just look at today's performance generation of cars.. not a single new car made with a carb. I never stated a carb can't be built to outdo a TBI, and the same can hold true for TBI a TBI can be built to outdo a carb, but why focus on both outdated technologies... for you TPI people the SFI injection users get a good laugh outta your outdated "TPI is the be all and end all of performance." It's not. Nothing is the end all.. not by a long shot. Performance like all technologies is ever evolving getting better as time progresses. I stated identical 305's with the only variation being a carb vs TBI had a TBI beat a carb. I never said bigger and better carbs couldn't possibly outdo that, but then again I was stating a fair comparison of 2 motors. No build up, no going to bigger and better. Just a plain flat as possbily equal footing which this was and the TBI walked all over it. It's all due to design. You can put in a brute force carb which flows more air and fuel, but what have you accomplished with that comparison... that for even more money spent performance can be gained? Hell ya we all know that... got the cash, the parts exist.

Before you go and flame, try to read the intent of a message first. What would happen if it was more equal footing... a 670 TBI and 650 Carb, both Holley on the same type of engine. Can you honestly say that the carb would flow more air? The CFM numbers alone hurt the carb, not to mention the inefficiency of the design of a carb vs the precise nature of TBI. The proof was not only in the numbers, but in the curve characteristics as well. I have not seen carbs create smoother looking curves than injected systems, sure I've seen some impressive numbers and curves from carb setups, but also from TPI setups as well. SFI setups I admit make the other 2 injection setups look as bad as they do the carbs on the dyno.

Who here can honestly say they can take their car for a 20000 mile trip with less than a day's tweaking? With my TBI I don't even have to tweak, its that reliable. I know a good amount of TPI people that are wary just to take their car a few hundred miles to a track for fear that they may not be able to drive it back after a few runs. It's why GM used TBI in their trucks all these years. Reliability. The GM engine design flows downward till it gets to their truck/sedan line which accounts for 70% of their cars. TPI's were reserved for the f-bodies and vettes.. why people want performance over reliabilty during that era. These days, GM tries to deliver both.. back then... ever see a 350 mated to a t-5? rarely if not at all... performance over reliability bit them in the ***... any t-5 mated to 305 tpi's already had problems and any that got hooked to a 350 well gm got it back in a month in pieces. By the time they did introduce the 350's, they were mated to their last gen 700r4 which in its own right was a good tranny but lacked the ability of the t-5 as 1/4 mile runs proved even a 305 could be within 2 tenths of a 350...

evil t/a

You are grasping at straws. How many perfomance cars today have TBI? How many perfomance cars that actually ran higher than 15's stock ever had TBI? thought so. How many street rodders , kit car builders , custom car builders and Racers are choose to use TBI when starting from scratch? thought so. How many are running around with carbs or Port injection setups? Thought so. You point to a compariosn of two non identical engines in two different cars on a dyno test as scientific proof that TBI makes more power than a carb and you want to be taken seriously? But then again you are the same person that autos arent really less efficient than sticks. In fact I dont know anyone that has switched away from TBI and isnt running faster , there are ALOT of people that have done it even the originator of the "ultimate TBI". We can take a poll and see.

As for the 20000 mile drive with no tweaking crap , what is this your first car? Do you realize that people have been driving cross country in carbed cars for as long as there have been cars? And alot of people with cars that have power are leary of driving a long ways to the track because they are afraid of breaking parts in general (rear ends , transmissions driveshafts etc.). What on a TPI is going to break due to racing?l The fact that you have it in your head that anything would have to be tweaked shows that you have no idea about how a carb or TPi really works , you are listening to the uninformed bull**** of other people that need to grasp at straws and make up silly wives tales in order to justify what they have under their hoods instead of just being truthful and say that "Its whats on my car so its what I am going to work with" . I have had cars with TBI , TPI , CFI and carbs and know that reliabilty is a wash.

88 WS6 TransAm GTA

iTrader: (1)

.

firbird

so the people at the carb board sould go over to the tpi board and start **** because they dont have to spend 5K to make there set up beath on top end? i really hope not

89Irocz23

Man I spent about 500 on my lt1 intake and its not even close to costing 10k and its better than tpi on top anyway. I dont see where the hell you get this 10,000 to put tpi on.

firbird

Indeed you spent 500 on the lt1 intake but.... were the hell it is it? .... :lala: and o yea i said 5,000. K only one thousand not 2 thousand for future references

Kat

iTrader: (4)

Hrmmm **** I think that I'll still be running faster than most of the people on this board once I get the 350 into my car... using TPI and stock parts mostly.. Well the cam I might have a custom grind thats about it.

Oh yeah... Thats with spending 2 grand or less on the engine It is all about planning and choosing parts wisely which I've yet to see happen here on this board. Even your almighty NJSPEEDER picked a poor *** combo with those Edelcock heads that cant even out flow a freaking set of aluminun L98 heads on the exhuast side. Oh and whats this I heard about him putting a LT1 cam in his car. Hrmm funny how I havent heard new times with his car and that cam in it. Oh and the 3600 stall on it too is a freaking joke. Hell stock LT1 4th gen cars Vigilante doesnt even recommend anything much higher that 2600 stall. **** even my friends cripsy 91 GTA that had a TPI'ed 383 with 4.10s they only sent him a 2800 stall with the ZZ9 cam. Geeee wow yeah.... Goes to show ya the misinformation that you can foind on this board.

Thats the really ****ty thing about the internet. people that want to go fast go out and do research on parts that they want and pick a combo on their best educated guess. Come here to this TBI board with people just getting int the car game and peopel shove nothing but crap down their throats. Liek you need todo this to your TBI and put that on it and a LT1 cam.. Well gee my 202k TBI 305 car is faster than most cause from what I've seen non of ya know how to tune a stock motor (yeah 15.7@84 mph.. 3.73s and swirl port heads with a small *** cam and crappy everything else there is no top end in my car)

Kat

Slade1

Quite simply if you're so proud of your setup, then why bother to come to a TBI board to flame at all? You start off with good intentions to help, but telling people to dump a system to another when most of these cars here are daily drivers is another matter. I for one would always recommend making the best of what you have and purchasing something else if you want better only if for practicality is a wise decision. I won't dump my TBI because simply put its quite effective for me. My father's own 2000 SS Camaro makes my car look like a joke, but its mine, it works and its plenty good with fuel efficiency/performance. A carb would be just as effective to a lesser extent though for someone who grew up with carbs as well. Take the novice and new thirdgen owner though. These days they've only heard of carbs and think that they are the best but what happens when they get their hands on one. What happens if anyone tries to switch and they are misinformend or inexperienced? They screw up usually. They go to their respective fuel injection systems and try to get it working or go to a mechanic.

I've seen a lot of fourth gen cars take out 3rd gens with ease, they do it with modern technology. I've seen the corvette and viper in action and they do 12's with ease and with some extra goodies can pull in 11's.

A carb is good for one thing dumping in loads of fuel with loads of air for the ugliest greatest amount of power you can get in. It's very inefficient and a waste and a lot of enviromentalists would have them eliminated if they could. I personally don't want them to go because I love NASCAR races and their cars.

Now currently just what are the fastest race cars in the world? You simply asked the question and here's the answer F-1 cars. Fuel injected monsters that could make a cakewalk in acceleration and top speed over quite anything. Indy cars are around the same boat and design.

So here's the issue. I never said a TBI is faster than a TPI... not by a long shot I think. I state carbs are older tech and with fuel injection of today is even more outdated hence why the auto industry has not made a new car with a carb in years. Going to the performance amatuer segment, carbs are good, SFI is king and then theres the extreme big block with no regards to anything but making bigger is better look good. Now we have the pro segment in which I regard NASCAR as good ol american v-8's in their glory, INDY and F-1, representing today's finest in innovation and design for both carb and fi design. If I wanted a carb beast, I'd build it like a cup car engine... simply put whatever you think you got, it can be built better be it carb or fi.

iroc22

L98 Unported @ 28" H20
Intake 199 @.500"
Exhaust 164 @.500"

Edelbrock Performer @ 28" H20
Intake 229 @.500"
Exhaust 175@.500"

Riiiiight.....

Actually tons. I've been involved in street rodding all my life because of my Dad who's been in it for 30 years and I've seen many guys going to 4 barrel Projection system from Holley. It has become very popular since it came out for guys to go to it because it bolts right up to a 4bbl manifold. Most of the Rodders are old, and if you ask them why they went to the Projection setups, they'll all say because they're too old to hassle around with carbs.
And for the racers, I just went to the local track recently and there was this wild 67 Mustang that was running a Projection setup and was running mid 8's
Watching that Mustang rip down the track alone convinced me to go with the Holley Projection when I build my Chevelle (of course if budget allows, if not then it's carb).

88 WS6 TransAm GTA

iTrader: (1)

ds83z28

I was just joking around with my last post,i didnt know you tpi guys would get so pissed

Rob P

iTrader: (1)

"How many street rodders , kit car builders , custom car builders and Racers are choose to use TBI when starting from scratch? thought so.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Actually tons. I've been involved in street rodding all my life because of my Dad who's been in it for 30 years and I've seen many guys going to 4 barrel Projection system from Holley. It has become very popular since it came out for guys to go to it because it bolts right up to a 4bbl manifold. Most of the Rodders are old, and if you ask them why they went to the Projection setups, they'll all say because they're too old to hassle around with carbs.
And for the racers, I just went to the local track recently and there was this wild 67 Mustang that was running a Projection setup and was running mid 8's
Watching that Mustang rip down the track alone convinced me to go with the Holley Projection when I build my Chevelle (of course if budget allows, if not then it's carb)."

I'm not sure I'd consider a Holley Projection system a true TBI system, in the manner we are talking stock GM TBi.
I've been to hundreds of cars shows, from parking lot gatherings to the big nationals. I have never seen anyone put a straight GM TBI system on any car on purpose. Period.

Slade1 brings up the truth. When I started modding my thirdgen I started with TBI (89RS convt). When I got owned by a 90's something Thunderbird I said NEVER AGAIN. For what it would have cost me to do the work on my 305TBi to get some decent power, I was able to purchase an entire wrecked 92 Z28 5.7TPI
with 38K on the clock. I parted the car, kept the drive train and basically broke even. With no tranny work I went 13.81@98.96mph. What would I have had to do to my 305 to run that time/speed?
I never bust on someone who tries to do the best with what they have or can afford. Just don't hype it into something it is not.

Slade1

I always love to see how pissed off the TPI people get at us TBI users. They've got nothing better to do than come on to a TBI section and pick on TBI users? I don't think the ones that try to pick on us have ever seen the tricked up TBI's that exist. I think if I had come to a TPI board and tried to preach TBI to TPI users, I deserve all the hate he pours out. Unfortunately I didn't and the guys here on the TBI board are easy going. We don't claim to be the fastest, we just claim we can get more outta what GM gave us for the money. For less than 2k I think I got my worth in a car. If I had more cash I'd invest in a LS6 based car. My dad went thru carb and TPI thirdgens but of all those thirdgen's the TBI was what lasted him the longest. Knowing how bad my dad drives his cars, I know that is worth a lot in value. Heck he had the driver's side door messed up the day he got his firebird when I was a kid. He ran the TA to the ground destroyed the tranny in under 6 months... the TBI never hassled him so that's why I use it today. It hasn't hassled me and after 14 years, it puts out more torque than the day it was made after some minor changes. It has only thrown 1 error code, a 32 EGR and that was easily fixed 1 year ago.

Like I said before I've seen TBI in action and it surprised the hell out of me. Even now I'm looking at the jeg's catalog and right there both Accel and Helley make some super TBI units with Accel good for 300 HP use and the Holley ones giving you from 300-500 HP setups. You'd have to wonder how much faith Holley has in TBI if their willing to stick out their necks and market a line of TBI's to fit people's budgets.

iroc22

Yeah sure is.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=117129

Slade1

Who ever said the stock TBI is a performance injection system has another thing coming to them lol. Same with the stock carb, stock TPI etc... they're not designed for the best power. I know the stock TPI is probably the biggest joke though. You ever see the flow numbers on that thing? That on a 350 makes the TBI on a 305 look good... it is just so restrictive it isn't even funny how much that hurts 350 engines. It makes you realize why TPI replacements are so abundant... aftermarket people knew how bad it was and tapped a goldmine for their pockets. TBI injection wasn't the problem for the LO3's... lol the rest of the engine was. I personally am a fan of SFI injection. It just makes so much sense. Give each cylinder the needed fuel at the needed time at whatever the power requirement is needed. With that in mind you see the failing of TPI's batch injection setup, sure each cylinder is getting a decent amount of fuel.. just not when each cylinder needs it.

I'm kinda with you iroc on the whole holley stuff not being true TBI... then again are we saying that TBI shouldn't be redesigned to be better like the carb and tpi setups were done. Just as the carb and tpi have bigger and better, the TBI has bigger and better... the only difference is that how much more can you improve the design of a TBI? I can think of a lot of things that carbs still fail in (efficiency comes to mind) and TPI still hurts if the intake isn't cold no matter how much you spent on a newer bigger better TPI it still has to be iced.

I haven't spent anything major in the way of mods for my car, I figure why bother. I'm poor. That's why I enjoy having this car, easy to maintain and still can lay the smack down on the punk ricers.

snflupigus

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