fltche1

I am looking at redoing all my suspension on my car. The suspension is 25 years old on my 86 Trans am... Its time for it to be changed. I am going to upgrade to some Tokico HP stuts, heavy duty front coils, TRW variable rate coil springs in the rear, and polyurathane bushings all around. I am getting a polyuerathane bushing kit from Hyper-Flex Performance. The bushing set includes front and rear control arm bushing, front sway bar end links, panhard bar bushings and tie rod boots. Am I missing any other bushings aside from the sway bar bushings? The ball joints and wheel bearings are getting replaced too. The other question is... there are so many different sway bar sizes.... I don't know what size sway bar bushings i need.... Any help on how to figure it out/Any place that will tell me? I am an engine guy... Suspension is not my strong suite and I am still learning.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Take a set of open-end wrenches; whichever one fits tightest to it, that's the size. For the links, the "ideal" length depends on ride height, but usually ends up in the 2½" - 2¾" kind of range. Not tremendously critical to get too precise with that.

I'd STRONGLY suggest not trying to replace the rear LCA bushings. They're near impossible to R&R without destroying the weenie little tin-foil garbage they're pressed into. Aftermarket ones are CHEEEEEP and save an ENORMOUS amount of trouble. Same for the Panhard bar.

Sway bar bushings and end-links can be had from severl of this board's sponsors, or your local speed shop, or Summit & Jeg's, or hanging on cards at AutoZone and such.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

While I like the "idea" of those all in one poly bushing kits. The reality is that the money could be better spent on other products.

Front control arm bushings (aka A-arm bushings): This is a rather difficult procedure for the average person at home. You really need to take it to a shop that has a press. They can press the bushings into the A-arms. They can do the ball joints for you at the same time.....For the A-arms, since it's such a job to do, I'd suggest getting the Del-A-Lum bushings from Global West instead of the poly bushings. Cost = $150

Rear control arms and panhard rod, I agree with sofakingdom. Changing a stock one to an aftermarket one is rather easy. Better material all the way through.

Anti-Venom

How are you looking to improve your suspension? Where do you feel it's lacking? Do you think the car has too much roll? Looking to dial out understeer?

Start with being honest with what you want to achieve with your car. Are you looking to improve your launches? Looking to improve ride quality? Lower lap times? Because your going to need different components for each goal.


Keep in mind to improve performance your going to increase noise, vibrations and harmonics or NVH with some mod's. The stiffer the bushings are, the more irregularities are going to be transferred to you that would of otherwise have been soaked up by the factory compliant bushings.

The poly bushings are ok everywhere except the front and rear LCA's. In the front they seem to dry up, bind and squeek and for a street car you will hate them. Global west makes a delrin replacement bushing that works much better for reducing bushing deflection in the front LCAs. In the rear, poly doesn't allow the rear axle as much freedom to articulate and also binds up the rear suspension. This is why you see poly/rod bushings offered, one end of those lca's has to be able to twist. The factory soft bushings allow this to happen however they don't keep accurate control of the rear's alignment. This is why poly/poly are a great LCA for drag racing only where you don't want all the clunks and rattles of a rod/rod LCA. The rear panhard you won't notice much more NVH with just plain spherical rod ends.

The objective of suspension "upgrading" is to remove the distortion and deflection from the stock bushings, improve the control of the springs, while allowing the suspension to travel freely, ultimately to obtain more traction. This is not accomplished by throwing money under the car for whatever parts seem shiny lol!

My next question, why progressive springs? Are the stock ones too soft to hold the car up? Are they too stiff? What actual improvement are you looking to gain by replacing them?

In most cases simply replacing the stock worn bushings, replacing the worn shocks, and adding SFC's and a wonderbar will make a world of difference on a 20 year old car, will actually reduce sqeeks and rattles, and restore the cars original handling. This won't cause the car to drive rougher, or make more noise, and may be actually all you realisticly are looking for. Unless you consider a harsh ride full of squeeks and rattles an upgrade in daily driving.

fltche1

That is very well put Anti-Venom. The car is a daily driver but I still want to be able to take it to the track and do an autocross event or two on some weekends. I don't want the car to be a race car but I want to be able to have more fun in it than your average daily driver. I really don't have any interest in launches or drag racing the car.The reason I was thinking about the variable rate spring was it would just help cut out some the body roll and work better with the struts/shocks. (this could just be due to terribly worn out struts/shocks and suspension) I figured that would reduce a bit of under-steer which i have noticed in the car (again could be due to the worn out suspension of a 25 year old car so I leave that up to others experience to judge I will see the results and the difference afterwards). If regular bushings will get me where I want to go I am more than willing to use them. My thought proccess was that technology has come a long way in 25 years and maybe updating could bring me closer to what I was after. For example the car will be recieving the LS1 brake conversion to increase stopping power and remove a nasty brake steer problem the single piston non 1LE package was known for. I am open to suggestions. A regular bushing kit is less expensive and means more money for other things like getting the windows tinted and building the engine. So I want to spend enough to get the job done right but I don't need every single bell and whistle available. It sounds like I may just need to replace with stock parts, some nicer shocks/struts, factory springs to replace any sag accumulated over 25 years, and a wonder bar... What is a SFC? Like I said, I am a guy who knows his way around an engine and what those parts do. I know how to work on the rest of cars in general but I don't know what all the suspension pieces are or do... I appreciate all the help you guys are giving to a suspension rookie like me.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

You sound exactly like me. Daily driver that is a lot of fun to drive. Not some concrete stiff riding car that can handle like a Formula One car. Or a car that makes you hate every bump in the road.

My advice would be to spend as much money on the struts and shocks as you can. Might as well upgrade the springs to the common Moog 5662/5665 (front/rear) combo at the same time. But even keeping the springs you have right now, a GOOD set of struts/shocks will transform your car into a well handling, enjoyable daily driver.

I would rather you get good struts/shocks and nothing else than have you get cheaper struts/shocks and then do poly this and aftermarket that.

SFC = subframe connectors. Great idea on any car. The Wonderbar is also a good addition for any car.

fltche1

Just out of curiosity have you made modifications to your car? how did it drive versus stock if you did? And with those moog springs will they stay at stock ride height? I really don't want to lower the car... from the factory they barely clear speed bumps....

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

The Moog springs are stock ride height springs. Your original springs are probably 1.0-1.5" lower than they were originally due to age. And even doing new struts/shocks alone will help with speed bumps. It's kind of hard to describe, but they will push the car up faster and quicker than old struts/shocks will. So if you go over a drop in the road, instead of the car squashing down, the car will stay up but the tires will go down. Going over a speed bump, the car will tilt up rather than staying level and having the tires tuck up. It's a win-win situation.

I went with the Konis for a few reasons. I liked the lifetime warranty. And it was down to either Koni or Bilstein. Before hand, I thought the Bilstein would be more forgiving for a daily driven street car and that the Konis would be a stiff riding race car only setup.....I was wrong.....The Konis are wonderful in every situation. Sure, they're great for twisty corners and stepping on the gas pedal. But they're also really good for just cruising to work on an average day. They're light years more comfortable than the stock pieces that were in there. I don't regret them one bit. They're my favourite modification.

I did the back shocks and springs first and saved up to do the fronts later. It was an interesting comparison. Because the back end was rigid and firm. Not bone jarring stiff. But less slop. Going over road that was up/down, up/down, the front end would bob up and down like a boat in waves. Meanwhile the back wouldn't have any feel at all. It was as if the road was flat on the back end of the car. Taking highway overpasses that have long sweeping corners at 60 mph, the back end would be firm and flat. The front end would feel like it was twisting. Doing the front later on was an even bigger difference. Because changing the rear shocks makes the back of the car feel better. Changing the front struts makes the front and center of the car feel better.

I think too many people go for lowering springs because the common thought is that lower = more performance = better. But it's the struts/shocks that control the performance. Lowering springs (to me) just mean rougher ride, more scraping, not much performance increase, and they're expensive. I like stock height.

The biggest difference after putting in a Wonderbar will be when you have the steering wheel turned all the way while pulling in and out of a parking spot. Also when you're going in circles while going up/down floors in a parking garage. It will keep the front end more rigid. They're super easy to install too. 3 bolts per side. That's it. The bar from Top Down Solutions slides right in there nicely. 10 minute job if that. The hardest part will be jacking the car up.

Without subframe connectors, if you jack up the driver side front of the car, you will lift up the front tire and the other 3 tires will be flat on the ground. With subframe connectors, if you jack up the same spot. Both driver's side tires will lift off the ground. Quite simply it connects the front and back to each other and cancels out the twisting motion these cars can get while turning onto a hill. But even things like changing lanes on the highway will be quicker and more glued to the road.

With the Global West "Del-A-Lum" bushings in the front A-arms, what will happen is that the car will turn instantaneously. You won't turn the wheel and have that moment of pause where the car leans the other direction and then sets in place for the turn. It just turns. Right now. You might find you'll turn too soon when pulling off a street and into a parking lot and accidentally hit the curb. The overall feeling is of a more direct feel in terms of steering.

So if you want a car that is above all else fun to drive all the time, do this in the following order.

1) Struts/shocks (do the rears first if cost is an issue. I love the Konis).
2) Springs. The 5665 is the Moog stock height linear rear spring. The CC-635 is the Moog stock height progressive rear spring. Go for the 5665. The trouble with progressive springs is mostly in left/right/left right motions. That's when the spring rate changes give you trouble.
3) TDS Wonderbar. $60 and easy to install.

Just doing that alone will make the car handle and feel better than it was brand new. I should know. I've had my GTA since new.

You can do these in any order you want.
Del-A-Lum A-arm bushings
Subframe connectors
Sway bar bushings (poly bushings are fine here)

At this point you're way beyond the stock feel of the car. Only if you want to turn it into a handling machine would you want to change out the rear lower control arms (LCA) or the panhard bar (PHB). This is when you start getting into rubber vs poly vs rod end and their associated good/bad points of each.

Honestly, if you just do 1, 2, and 3 above and stop there, your car will awesome to drive.

Anti-Venom

Reid, also a very well written post. I will add in though that if you truly intend to auto-x to check what class you intend to run and what's allowed.

With the variable rate springs they are designed to ride soft under normal conditions and then stiffen up as you progress in the springs travel. They are designed more so for lowered cars to maintain some ride quality while stiffening up to keep the car off the bumpstops. Especially bad in an autocross situation because you want quick, responsive transitions with a predictable linear spring rate. I would recommend if you intend to replace the springs to do your research here, there are many opinions and personal preferences when it comes to spring rate. Also what might be good for one car/driver can be completely wrong for another car/driver. All cars are not the same. The front springs are not an easy job to replace. When springs age they don't lose their rate but they might sag a little. If they sag evenly, there is nothing wrong with them and your honestly not giving up enough travel to bother spending the money replacing them. Some people don't like to cut springs but you can gain some rate by cutting a coil and also lower the car some by remove the isolaters and using some heater hose over the spring instead. Do your own research here as here again are many opinions.

Also check the rules for the class you intend to run. If you auto-x, Koni's alone will transform your car. However make sure the class you run allows adjustable shocks and struts. I honesly have never ran an auto-x events so I don't know how their classes are setup. Maybe someone else can chime in here. If that would be the case however, then Bilsteins are the next best, and are a non-adjustable unit. Tokico's and KYB's are betten than stock....Slightly *sarcasm*, But Koni's and Bilsteins completely in another class.

Again check with the class you intend to run for bushings also. Some classes may not allow the del-a-lum global west bushings or spherical ends and there is a large tradeoff with ride quality with them on the street. It comes down to personal preference of what you are willing to live with, and what you consider liveable on the street. The poly bushings are a good tradeoff to eliminate some compliance but will squeek like hell, I also noticed they wear out faster than stockers and require religious maintenance to keep them from binding and sticking. Personally after having them on one car, and even with bathing them in lube, I will never use them again on the front control arms.

Now for swaybars, Some car's already had poly bushings stock with the WS6 package, If they are white or probably more of a gray now, then you have poly bushings already. If they are black then they are the std rubber bushings. Still they are inexpensive and worth replacing. If yours however are in good shape and are already poly this may allow you to put this off a little longer. Just pull the bar from the frame, make sure to give the bushings a generous lube and make sure the bar turns freely in the bushings.

The stock rear control arms (LCA's) and panhard bar (PHB) are inadequate at best. This is where you don't even want to bother paying to have the bushings replaced in these flimsy, stock components and just buy aftermarket. Why take the compliance out of the bushings when the steel still flexes around like a noodle? Again in the LCA's if poly is used on both ends then the poly bushings load up like a spring and cause handling issues, this effect is only exacerbated with a stiffer aftermarket control arm. This can be aleviated simply by having one end of the arm poly and the other end able to twist. If you know someone competent, it is possible to modify the stock components to box or stiffen them and replace the bushings but they are cheap so the general consensus is to just replace them. These are what I'm running but they are a couple hundred new.



If I still have it I'll have to post a picture of my stock PHB that I twisted, gives you an idea of how crappy the stocker is. Now with the PHB there isn't alot of NVH that results from replacing it with one with spherical ends. Spherical ends however tend to clunk when they wear out and being metal on metal they tend to do so quickly. There are newer joints that Reid posted called Roto or Delsphere joints that I'm using that are a hybrid spherical with a delrin cup in them that are self lubricating, and allows the joint to last longer while eliminates the noise common with std sphere ends. They are also serviceable and rebuildable. But are the most expensive option. Also you will also want to chunk up a little extra for an adjustable PHB, It allows you to center the rear end which is far from centered stock and only gets more off center as you lower the car. If you ever intend to run wider tires or just correct the factory missalignment you will be glad you spent a little extra here.

For brakes, Start off with a good set of autocross pads and some steel braided line. Also replace your fluid with some good quality stuff and bleed the brakes. The pulling to one side is due to the old rubber lines being shot and has nothing to do with the calipers. The steel braided line keeps the lines from bulging out and increases feedback and pedal feel.

Sub Frame connectors (SFC's) and a wonderbar are the next best thing next to the shocks and stuts. Our cars are uni-body meaning the floorpan connects the front and rear and we don't have a full frame. There for our cars twist like crazy. SFC's connect the front and rear with a solid bar and help greatly. You will notice the car feels more firm, planted and more responsive. Also you will notice less noise, squeeks and rattles from the interior. Welding is required to install the good SFC's however and the bolt in ones are not that great. Again I could take a picture of where my roof is cracking at the back upper side window corners from all the flex from not running connectors.

fltche1

This information helps a lot. I will definitely be investing in the SFC's a wonder bar and the springs, shocks/struts. I may not be able to do this all in one go due to cash flow but I will definiteley look at the Koni's. Its worth the money in my opinion for the good ride and handling. As for bushings I think I am just going to go back to std bushings. Based off your information it sounds like they are better for drag racing due to binding issues... Not to mention they just sound like a head ache... Replacing the LCA's is definitely in the near future as well... I did find a front end rebuild kit from Hawks third gen with all std bushings for 250 bucks. When my tax refund rolls around I will have the money to finish suspension upgrades and maybe even the brakes... I was planning on steel braided lines anyways so maybe I need to move that up on the priority list to just under the suspension. Thanks for your help guys. I have a direction. Now to go look at the Koni's

Anti-Venom

No problem, Glad to help and glad we could save you some money and headaches.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

I agree on being able to keep the old springs. But changing to new ones is definitely an option. At about $60 for front and $60 for rear, they're not that expensive to buy. And the rears will fall out anyways when changing the shocks.....Now the fronts? Yep. They're much harder to change out. Need a spring compressor. Might as well get them put in with the ball joints (and optional Del-A-Lum bushings) all at the same time.

For LCA and PHB, there are a few options. Each has their good sides and bad sides.

Stock rubber: Lasts a long time. Silent. Good ride. No binding. The downside is that they're too soft to offer performance.

Poly: Stiffer and better performance. But they squeek. And worse yet, they bind. So when you take a hard corner, your car can slingshot itself back in the other direction without warning. A scary way to end up in the ditch. I don't want to pay to have my car do that.

Spherical Rod End: A metal on metal connection. Best performance. But they tend to wear out quickly and clunk when they do (clunk when you turn, clunk when you come out of a turn). No binding though due to the spherical aspect. Good for full out race cars.

Delsphere (Spohn) or Roto Joint (UMI): Same basic design but built slightly different. These are Spherical Rod Ends that come in a delrin bushing setup. So you get all the performance of a Rod end but with the quietness of a (non squeeking) poly. They're about $15-30 more expensive than a Spherical Rod End design. Worth it in my opinion for a street car that wants full potential unleashed. As a bonus, you don't need to lube these like you do with poly.

Check out Spohn's website at the bottom of the page for a video of how a Delsphere setup works.
http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...ot-Joints.html

You're looking at around $160 and $240 for the top of the line PHB and LCA respectively. I can live with this, because you don't have to spend $90/hr to have a shop replace them.

Contrast that to what the stock LCA looked like in my car.

Anti-Venom

I use the poly delsphere LCA's because in my thinking the poly end allows at least one bushing to absorb some vibes.

How do you like yours? Do they seem to transmit a considerable amount more vibes?

As for springs, they may be cheap but again if they aren't sagging unevenly. Then there's literally nothing wrong with them and they will never cause a single issue. Again, They don't lose their rate. So your just wasting $60. Show me otherwise.

fltche1

Since that seems to be the case I will see what results I get from the rest of the suspension upgrades before I look at springs at all. If i still want them at the end then I will look at springs.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

In all my days, hundreds of thousands of miles, and whatever else, I have NEVER seen that happen. Now of course "never" is a pretty BIG word, and I won't say it "never" happens, or "can't" happen; only, that I've never seen any such thing.

In fact, the only place I've ever seen it, or anything remotely resembling it, is in the ad literature for COMPETING products.

I'd welcome any OBJECTIVE (translation: impartial, unbiased, free of contrary financial interest) evidence that shows it.

Are spherical ends of any particular design, "better"? Probably. Are poly ends "unsafe", "bad", and so on? Seems to me like a bunch of overheated, over-inflated rhetoric and hyperbole.

And I would add, I don't have any "squeek" problems either; not with any of the vehicles I have that have poly parts on them (which is, quite a few, each with quite a few such parts installed).

Seems like a whole lot of fever-pitch top-of-the-lungs "chicken little" yelling and screaming from people wanting to sell something that costs A WHOLE LOT more but can't find any other way to back up their claims of "superiority".

OP: you need springs. Try em on the rear especially since they're so cheeeeeeeeep and eeeeeeeeeeezie to replace while doing all that other. Moog CC635 or 5665, according to your preference for variable- or constant-rate. The reason is not so much "issue", as it is, opportunity for improvement.

fltche1

Ok so I am going to start with the rear end first since it is easiest and can be done without the spring compressor. What Koni's did you use Reid?I found a set of Koni Sport suspension rear shocks but I havent found the fronts... I would think that mixing shock/struts is a bad idea but I could be wrong. For the wonder bar I am looking at the Global west since it is a weld in bar and should give me more support than the bolt ins I have seen a lot of. And a question has come to my mind. I have heard that mixing rubber and Poly is a bad thing to do and they don't play well with eachother... Lets say I got the LCA's replaced and they came with del a lum bushings... does that mean the rest of the bushings on the car need to be del a lum bushings? I don't quite understand what can and can't be mixed...

These are the Koni's I am looking at.
http://www.tirerack.com/suspension/S...86&autoModClar=

UMI Sales

Anti-Venom and Sofakingdom (great name btw), you guys are offering some great advice.

When it's time to upgrade we have the parts you need.

The nice thing about suspension is it's additive in nature. You can do it piece by piece and as your budget allows.

ramey

Anti-Venom

Sofa, I have absolutely zero financial interest or even friendships with any suspension companies. To blindly claim so is a paranoid, unfounded basis to reinforce your already weak arguement.

Two people on this post simply like the concept a certain type of joint that happens to be offered by only two companies. The face value theory and engineering behind them seems like an excellent idea that "in theory" negates the quick wear of a std rod end. Now I stress theory because I haven't owned them that long and am not sure yet how they will wear. The difference costs less that a set of moog springs IMO they seemed worth it and can't hurt. But you do what you want. Metal on metal=fast wear, metal seperated by self lubricating delrin=less wear. Seems simple enough.

To completely dismiss "basic" suspension design and engineering simply on the basis of my "streetcar" didn't have any issues is not an objective arguement with empirical evidence to support a theory that applies to a 9/10ths event.

It's self evident that poly/poly LCA's inflict a negative effect. If you move one side of the rear axle relative to the other, then the arm has to twist. To introduce a higher durometer bushing that resists this twisting, you are accomplishing the exact opposite of the intended goal "To allow the suspension to move freely". Where is this brand biased? The bushing is now acting like a spring. Now I not once ever claimed this was dangerous for a streetcar. It is however completely and obviously not ideal for handling. In fact it's fine for a streetcar that's not driven hard, and works great for a drag car. I ran metco poly/poly's for some time. The OP is looking to auto-X, so why engineer in something that works against the intended goal/application?

Again, I only had noise from the front poly control arm bushings. The rear I seemed to have little if no problems with. They will improve the front suspension if you don't mind the potential for them to squeek. Anyone that's been around a racetrack can hear the cars go by squeeking, let alone my own experience with them. You literally will want to bath the crap out of them in lube.

Perhaps you can provide empirical evidence as to why the OP absolutely needs to replace his springs? He obviously (no offence) is not at a point where he knows enough to play with spring rates? Throw some krylon on those stockers and toss them back in. Otherwise your just giving yourself the pleasure of having to let new springs re-settle. You just contradicted yourself greatly here BTW with the OP spending money that's not necessary.

Sounds to me like your the one screaming like chicken little. Why would we attempt to help you understand "anything" when you seem so receptive to other peoples feedback? You seem to already have a stubbornly biased opinion formed for yourself. Some of us here have actually built a few "race cars".

fltche1

None taken. I came to the forum and started this thread to learn and move closer to my objective of finishing my car. =) I have no false illusions about where I am at on experience with suspension. When there are people with more experience than me... its time to ask questions. And wouldn't the paint just crack and come off when the spring flexed? Or does the krylon paint have a different composition that allows more flexablity in the paint? I know automotive paint has to have an additive to do that but I am not sure about rattle cans of Krylon.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

How so? I'm not the one talking about stuff like

Like I said, LOTS of people have used these things for LOTS of miles, and this doesn't seem to be something that happens on any kind of regular basis.

I didn't say you did. In fact I can't see anywhere in my post where any kind of intellignet reader could possibly construe that I DID say that. OTOH, THE COMPANIES THEMSELVES, are a whole different matter.

What I ACTUALLY DID SAY was:

Alll I want is to SEE THE EVIDENCE.

Yes I agree that the bushings have to twist. No question of that. As I said, did I not?

No question that harder durometer material (let alone, the arm itself not being as limp as a wet dishrag) limits that. However it's not really a "spring" exactly, it's more like a "sway bar"... sort of like how leaf spring cars have some degree of "sway bar" effect even without a sway bar, from having to twist the spring to make the wheels deflect differently.

Anyway...

For anybody looking to auotcross, a careful reading of the rules is critical. In some of the classes and sanctioning bodies, if any, virtually ANY modification WHATSOEVER that isn't a direct OEM replacement puts you into some kind of "modified" class, where the level of competition rises exponentially. But it doesn't look like the OP is in that category; looks like what he ACTUALLY said was something like

Forgive me for quoting everyone involved in the post (including myself) HONESTLY and not putting words into their mouths, but I'm just .... not very bright ... that way, I guess. Not as smart as you so I can't think up all those ways to make up stuff and then claim that people said it. Sorry for being so dumb but I just can't hep it.

What empirical evidence about the springs would you like? Or about any other part that wears out or otherwise deteriorates with age for that matter? Perhaps your old worn-out OEM ones would make a good auto-x setup? No doubt your own personal canyon-carver or whatever, still has them? Like I said I'm pretty dumb so help me understand.

Berlyn0963

iTrader: (4)

Im gonna chime in and make a comment,
I personally just made a purchase from UMI and went with the delrin bushings on both ends of the trailing arms and panhard bars.
After I install I would like to see how different it would be, but I dont see it would make an extreme difference in granny driving down the highway, but im sure any upgrade or repair would help over stock when spirited driving ensues. I will be interested to see how it handles in cornering or lauching hard. I have heard alot of good things about delrin, many have told me they are an upgrade from poly. any ideas as to how much difference I might see?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Delrin is a MUCH harder material than poly.

Expect better dimensional stability (i.e. less flexing and "give"), but increased "binding" to whatever extent that exists; unless they're the spherical ones.

b1k1w1

spings are to transfer weight, shocks are for how long it takes, torque arm for lift to transfer weight to wheels on launch, panhard bar to keep rearend centered, lower control arms lets the body move and the sway bay puts weight across axle to keep balance the wheels never leave the ground unless something is bad. You have to lube poly or they squeak read instructions before install. I have read about slugs being put in to get rid of movement from bushings its just a rough ride. So ? Why do you need spherical ends seams like sales gimmick

Anti-Venom

First off I would like to appologize to the OP for jacking his thread with this. But...

Complete dismissal without any first hand experience. Also a completely paranoid claim against any of the companies that have had years of engineering and real world exerience designing chassis components. You not only called me and everyone else here on being full of $hit, with no tact I might add, but all the major suspension companies as well. With obviously little to no engineering background yourself. Anyone that has ever been on SCCA forums, NASA forums, CMC or AI forums or FRRAX (to name a few) that actually uses their cars 9-10/10ths will tell you the benefit of running spherical ends (or anything that doesn't bind) on the chassis. And the first thing they will tell you is it's bad to run poly/poly lca's and that you would be better of to run the stockers if given the choice. So instead of blindly throwing your biased opinion around and insulting everyone, as well as missdirecting the OP, in the future, if you question what's being said then go read a book and do a google search for yourself. Or even ask for clarification in a friendlier, less offensive manner, and more carefully pervey yourself, instead of arrogantly and rudely questioning the credibility of everyone involved.

Maybe in your opinion and infinite wisdom, all the COMPETING COMPANIES should then just make the stuff you have on yourcar and not offer options for other applications? In your own words the only justification after all can only be seen in competing literature.

This is a little bit of over dramatics, and could have simply been called as such. Which would have been more appopriate. However the theory he was trying to convey is partialy accurate, and however could have been placed within better context agreeably. To just completly dismiss it is purely ignorant. It's not so much as a slingshot effect as it is an upset of handling.

Going to basics again. Ever here of the pyramid of traction? Its physics that states tires only have so much available traction. That traction can be used for braking, cornering or acceleration. Usage of traction for any one of the three will detract available traction from the other. So... if your using all of the available traction for cornering and say you hit the brakes, then you will exceed the amount of traction available and off you go. This is why you don't brake into a corner but rather before it. Because then you can't carry as much corner speed because some of your traction is now given up to braking.

Now say you get to that 10/10ths of adhesion after the suspension has settled from the initial weight transfer and now the bushings decide to off load their stored energy "like a spring" (a swaybar also being a spring however the key is that it excerts its force downward only), that upsets the handling and again off you go.

Well being that your again seeing this perveyed here also, that leads me from what this states to believe I'm either one of two things as you so narrowed it. One, Either I'm incapable of forming my own opinion, and a sheep to believing what I read in add literature. Or Two, Have financial interest in a suspension company as can be insinuated as you so outlined in all CAPS.

I simply could see where recently my throwing in positive feedback for Spohn's products in the manufacturer feedback section, The fact that we used to have a partial sponsorship in AI with his products, and the perceptively biased posting of just his product's pictures can be missconstrued as a possible personal interest. So I just wanted to clarify that I have no interests, sponsorships, or dealer licensing currently in any companies. This has nothing to do with my reading comprehension or intelligenceas you again so rudely attempted to insult.

Well if you CAN see where the bushing has to twist, then you have to be able to put two and two together, and assume for yourself that if they can't then thats bad!? What other f-in evidence do you need!?

You're clearly forming an opinion with the OP that it's OK for his rear end to not be able to articulate freely. Your arguement strongly stresses the point that there is nothing wrong with this setup and that you have suffered no adverse affects. Does it not? If the OP is looking to run, even if not frequently, competetive timed events, then why would you defend using an item that clearly, and you just agree'd here, is inferior for his intended goal even in comparison to a stock bushed component.

And all we have simply tried to do is to provide an objective clarification of the difference between a part designed for drag use IE (poly/poly), and track and autocross use. All this in an attempt to teach the possible pro's and con's of each upgrade. And to hopefully help the OP to gain an understanding of why things ARE an upgrade, rather than them being just aftermarket and shiny with many confusing choices for the same part. The intent is not to get him to buy parts that are more expensive than what he needs to achieve his current goals. However hopefuly what's posted does keep him from having to buy things twice after having bought the wrong thing the first time.

Keep your fake sarcastic *** apologie, And please point out where any words other than what I just covered where placed in your mouth other that what did originaly come out of it? Or anywhere where anything was made up? Anyone else can read it also, it's not hidden I simply just provided my interpretation of what you said, simply disagree'd partialy with what was said, and fully dissagree'd with how it was delivered. I'm sorry you can't handle others opinions without having to result to sideways insults. I have no reason or gains otherwise to try to falsely discredit you in any way. So as far as discrediting, you are doing a fine job of that on your own.

So seeing as you yourself are admitting to being dumb. (Again I'm using your own words here). Here are some pertinant definitions for you.

Spring Load - Weight in lb's it takes to compress a spring to a certain height.
Spring rate - Amount of weight in lb-in it takes to compress a spring one inch.
Empirical- Information gained by observation or experimentation.
Subjective- All you have provided so far to the conversation.

The coil springs don't wear out, And I will say it again. Unless it's rusted through, It will not lose it's rate. Please go look it up and do your homework before you argue it with me any further. Better yet go measure some springs for yourself and be amazed! You cannot provide me the empirical evidence I would need because, A.) Your wrong. And B.) You have no means to provide actual empirical evidence in this debate.

Now the spring will lose it's load over time. Who care's? This simply means they sag... if they sag evenly, then you will see nothing adverse in handling due to this due to the fact it's rate will be the exact same as when it was new.

Auto-X requires your car to be able to transition quickly, so the last thing you want is a vague period of lesser rate, where the car is floaty, followed by a high spring rate, which would result in vague feedback to the driver. So again you don't want to recommend a progressive coil to the OP.

And yes, my car right now has the stock springs from 1989. And unless I want to change rates or one corner sag's unevenly it will continue to have the stock perfect springs. And guess what? they are doing the exact same thing just as well as they did in '89. Holding the car up.

Maybe you would like to tell us how they "wear out" yourself in your words. and shed some light on your theory? What adverse negative reactions are we to keep our eyes out for while running our claimed "worn out" springs?

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Verbal sparring gets old fast and usually veers away from the topic at some point to become personal. I think the OP has enough information to form an opinion of what's best for his vehicle. If not, a search should bolster that info.

JamesC