83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Has anyone seen these things? Have pictures of them? What's the deal with them?

Generally their stuff is pretty well engineered but the only reference to someone running them I've found said something about modifying them. Also I was wondering about the price vs something like the Jegs backet or even a set of LCA relo brackets. Do they relocate both sides?

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (15)

their panhard relo brackets lower both sides. they have one set of holes, in the lowest point of the brackets, the rest is up to you to decide/drill if you so choose. Welding required.

why do you feel you need them? they are normally a "race only" part since they do require other modifications to the suspension since the roll center is being altered.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

what other mods are you talking about? For the most part it appears to affect the necessary spring rates (and of course shock valving). Not sure what else would be really necessary.

I used to be serious into handling, now I'm just tinkering- I want to experiment... that's the real answer.

The sort of half assed answer is that I'm playing with building a serious all purpose setup, and to make that work you really have to increase rear roll stiffness to make it work in a straight line, which is not compatible with the stock roll center location. I'm hoping to come up with a better compromise by moving the roll center requiring stiffer springs and/or sway bar that would be better prone to working on a straight line launch also. It may work, it may not, that's not really the point.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (15)

those where the mods i was talking about, you seem to have a solid plan, i say go for it!

the brackets are pretty simple really, i dont see why you couldnt make your own if you have the ability, probably save a few bux for a couple hours of your time. An interesting concept to think aboug at the same time is maybe to try and lengthen the panhard more, longer is better in the panhard world from what i can tell, and provided you have the wheel clearance, could be worth the effort.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

that's part of the reason that I'm wondering what they look like... I can build just about anything but I've gotten to the point that I don't have time to mess with a lot of it so sometimes if it's not a crazy price I might just buy it if it does what I want.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

I looked at mine (I'm at stock height right now) and the PHB is pretty level (axle side and body side are pretty much level with each other). If I lower the car in the rear, the body side will be lower than the axle side, which is bad, so why would companies sell a relocation kit on the body side if the axle side is the one that needs to be lowered?

Base91

iTrader: (1)

How about going Watts? What's the difference in cost over new/adjustable panhard and brackets etc.? If you can make brackets you may be able to fab a Watts linkage as well.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (15)

The UE kit lowers both sides....

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Thanks that's the answer I was looking for really. UMI sells a relocation peice that replaces the upper PHB (i've heard this is useless) but it includes the peice to relocate the PHB on the body side, but not the axle side, which is where I would need it (and I imagine other people with lowered cars would need it as well). Thanks for the response!

DBLTKE

iTrader: (1)

The way it's worded on their website makes it sound like you only get the brackets:

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

I doubt it comes with hardware since we can use the hardware from our existing PHB. I have an aftermarket adjustable Spohn piece so the hardware is new and can be re-used.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I did it using two jegster relocation brackets.

The passenger side requires a good bit of modification to work. If you have a welder, cut off wheel, and grinder, you can do this pretty easily.

I am running my panhard bar on the lowest hole which is approximately 4" lower than stock. Believe it or not you can feel the difference in balance just moving the bar up or down one hole (on a track, there's really no way to tell on the street).

With this setup I run 250 lb/inch rear springs and 830ish up front. 36mm sway bar up front, and 24 out back with the clamps all the way inboard. I also have a shortened wheelbase (rear axle moved forward 1.25")
315/335 hoosier R6. With less tire I would be inclined to step down the bar sizes (I ran that way too)
It handles... well. .7 away from the RWD track record at Adams time attack. Stock LB9/t5.

If you use the two jegster brackets you will be close to the price of the UE part so it might make sense to just get those since they will go on without some fab work.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

That's awesome! I've read Dean's past posts (followed him alot before he got booted from here) and I remember him explaining that even one hole down created a significant difference in handling, and that you would need to stiffen the rear with stiffer springs and a bigger sway bar. Pretty awesome tool for tuning handling though! Cheap too!

92 BBC Z

The relocater for the upper is mainly for big tube exhaust clearence. Here is a pic of the axle welded jegster.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Just thought of something.. WHat if they had a bracket that relocated the LCA mount on the body side? How would this affect handling or straight line performance? I imagine this would do something? (keeping LCA angle parallel to floor obviously, but just lower both mounting point say 1 or 2 inches lower)

Just curious if anyone tried this yet!

92 BBC Z

I think senior member Vetruck could be of some help. He's pretty knowledgeable on this type of ****. How bout it Vertruck, where you at?

DBLTKE

iTrader: (1)

If anything, you'd want to relocate the body side of the LCA mount upwards, which isn't exactly doable as the floorboard is in the way. If you relocate it downwards your IC angle will be underground.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

What I meant is, install LCA relocation brackets to lower the axle mount side, bring that down to the lowest level possible, and then lower the body mount LCA just enough to keep the angle parallel to the ground (because that is best for handling, when it's parallel, and not on an angle. drag racing is different, for drag it's better to have the angle pointing downwards toward the axle side to plant the tires in the ground)

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

I was under the impression that bracket was for the body end of the bar, not the axle end.

I believe a lower panhard rod is better but often requires different springs and sway bar. It's been so long since I read about it, so I would hate to sag something wrong.

Some people are against this and unbalanced's decoupled torque arm.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (15)

the jegster relo bracket is defiantly for the axle side.

As for the decoupled torque arm, they work, and work well. They just require a bit of tuning and are not a install and go type part.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

I don't want to derail this thread, just saying if someone wants a lower mounted panhard, to research it's effects on the overall set up, in doing so you will find a lot of unbalanced eng. Haters, that will talk smack about the lower panhard and the decoupled ta. I would run one if they made a bolt in for 3rd gens.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

so I'm finally getting back to this, still wondering if anyone has seen one or has good pictures, mostly curious what you're getting for $170...

I know what I want it to do...

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

I just received the UE relo brackets today. Took em out of the box and they look very well made. They come with two pages of instructions on how to weld them and so forth. They also come with some hardware to bolt them in first as well as a reinforcement plate for the axle side because I guess that's where most of the cornering stresses are at.

Going to be hard to tell how they affect handling because I'm installing 0.75" extended Howe ball joints (which lower front ride height but raise front roll center) and will be cutting the rear springs about 1/2 a coil to 3/4 of a coil to lower the rear ride height AND more importantly increase rear spring rate to help with the increased rear body roll that lowering the PHB causes.

I will take some pics later tonight before I bring them to the shop for welding and all that good stuff.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Hellz, I would appreciate any pics you can post as soon as possible. I've sent unbalanaced a couple of emails and have never gotten a response, which makes me a bit nervous about actually ordering from them since they don't seem to list a contact number or any other means of contacting them.

Honestly, if I could find info/see what they're selling and knew how long the order would take to get to me I would have probably bought them today. As it stands I'm about as likely to order theirs, order the Jegs axle side and a BMR or UMI passenger side and/or make my own, depending on what these things look like and if I feel like going to the effort vs waiting for the order to show up

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

I brought the parts in this morning to the garage. Sorry I did not take pics as I did not have my phone on me (dangit!).. I'll snap pics of the brackets on the car when they're installed and welded in.

I'll try to best describe what they look like. I ordered the set, which comes with the axle side and the body side in bare metal (craftsmanship looks fantastic on these). There is a hole pre-drilled to mount the mounting bolt that goes in the stock PHB's previous mounting position. There is also a pre-drilled hole that looks to be about 4" down. They did NOT drill any holes in between. I would have thought they would be pre-drilled but I guess not. It does come with the mounting hardware and the required spacers to mount the PHB to it (I think it's wider and requires those little spacers so the PHB fits snug inside of the bracket). It also comes with an extra brace on the axle side as I mentioned earlier.

As a matter of fact I was going to ask anyone on here if they knew how much space is safe in between the drilled mounting holes in these brackets? I was assuming 0.5" or so because that's about the most amount of adjustment I would make at a single time (going down in 0.5" increments and testing it out to see if the car handles better or worse). If anyone can provide some insight that would be helpful! Thanks!

To contact UE, I think the best way is to email Jason: jason@unbalancedengineering.com
He took care of my order and was very helpful and responsive.

Drkhrse89

iTrader: (1)

I ordered mine a week or so ago. If Hellz_wings does not get photos up and depending on when I get it, I will post a bunch for you. I have searched for hours looking for photos of what they look like and the only thing I could find was Big_Mods (or something like that) site with a couple of photos of them mounted on his axle.

Drkhrse89

iTrader: (1)

The pipe is just rested in its final location. It will need to be welded into place. The bracket with the pipe is the driver's side and that obviously makes the other one the passenger side. As stated above there is only one location for the bar. It would be nice to have one or two other holes. The bracket is raw metal with notes as to where to weld and where to put the brace. I am not sure when I will be able to weld them in, but if you need any other photos just ask.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Yep exactly like mine. What's the tube for? Must have missed it in the box.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the pics Drkhrse89. I'll be honest, I don't see how that bracket is sturdier than the jegs bracket (I know, this does both sides), and I still haven't heard from Jason (he used to be involved in the local f-body list, I believe that I've met him a few times), so I ordered the jegs one when I ordered some engine parts. I'm going to take a really good look at it and decide if i'm just going to make my own or use it, but I like the fact that it has reenforcing in the top and bottom and adjustment holes.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I think the nice thing about the jegs piece is it has multiple holes drilled so you can find your phb sweet spot. The passenger side will require some cutting and grinding if you use the jegs part. I went ahead and also gusseted the mount aswell. I did not use the reinforcement bar on the axle though. So far its holding up fine.

Drkhrse89

iTrader: (1)

The pipe is a brace that reaches from the bracket to the axel tube.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Ahh, cool. That should make it sturdy enough IMO

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Brackets are welded in. I'm going to snap some pics tomorrow morning when I goto the garage. Here's the thing... They didn't cut any holes other than the ones that are already there! I'm going to go tomorrow to tell them where to make the holes to mount the PHB but I would need some advice from you guys on where the holes should be.. I'm going to print pics of the jegster bracket and bring them to show them how much to space out the holes. I lowered the rear about 1" from what it was before I installed extended ball joints and cut the rear springs so the rear sits only 0.5" higher than the front.

I want the PHB to be 0.5" higher on the body side to start (close enough to level), then lower BOTH sides 0.5" or 1" (I want them to drill the holes so I have the option later of changing the PHB height aka roll center based on track testing that I will do next month) ... The thing is I don't know how big the holes have to be OR how much metal to leave in between holes, or where to make them. And I don't want them to mess up because they are already welded on the car.

SlickTrackGod

Technicaly you could just have one long slot instead of holes, doesn;t matter as long as the clamp bolt is in good shape / There is only lateral load on it, not up and down force. With that said, I would have them drill as many holes as you can get becasue adjustment will vary based on spring rate and what is done also to the front of the car.

Make the holes with about 1/8" material between the holes and you'll have lots of adjustment provisions for better fine tuning than the Jegs unit.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Okay that's good to know. I was worried a bit about the integrity of the piece as well. I'll get em to drill as many holes as can fit (also will lighten the bracket slightly as well as an added bonus).. 1/8 of an inch seems small in between holes. Just in case I think I will leave 1/4" material in between the holes. That should probably be enough adjustment anyway I think?

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Damn is all I have to say..

So I went to the garage this morning, I snapped some pics (by the way, I like the lowness of the car now.. I didn't measure but it sits perfect IMO, not too low but just low enough IMO, although this is purely subjective lol).

They welded on that support brace (from the axle side bracket to the axle tube) and now there's no way of cutting holes in the axle side brace (they put the PHB in the lowest hole on both sides, it sits more or less level with the body side probably a 1/4" higher than the axle side which should be good enough).

I brought them pictures of all of your jegs axle side braces to show them how it's supposed to look like but then they showed me the instructions and it does say to weld that brace to the inner part of the bracket, which means there's no way of mounting the bracket any higher than the lowest point that is already pre-drilled. I can drill holes on the body side, but that's useless unless I can drill holes in the axle side. I dunno why the instructions from unbalanced engineering would have them do this because the whole point is to test it out at the track and finding the sweet spot.

Now the only thing i can think of is cutting the brace, making holes, hopefully this is possible but kinda annoying as it will make for a non-perfect install and perhaps ruin the piece since it's all welded on already.

And if I leave it like this I'll definitely need a bigger rear sway bar. Right now I have 34mm in the front and 24mm in the rear. I can go bigger I think SPOHN sells a 25mm cromemoly one...

Anyway, here are some pics to show you what I mean:

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Here is the body side bracket.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

whoa if you are running the 34/24 combo i would say you'd probably not need a bigger sway bar in the back. The 24 is pretty dang stiff. Any bigger and bumps are really going to start to upset the rear axle imho. If you need more rate in the back I would increase the spring rate not the bar.
If you are running moog 5665s back there I can tell you those springs are very soft so I would suggest cutting a lot from them. I ended up with 1.5 coils cut off and they were still soft for me with a 34/21 and regular phb height.
At the bottom setting of your phb lowering brackets I think you are going to end up around 200 lb inch if you have cut 5662s and a 34mm front bar.
I would personally move up to the 36 front and maybe go to 225 on the rear springs. You can then fine tune the balance on the rear by moving the sway bar clamps in or out. You can always step down to the 21 mm bar too if its too much.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Pablo,

Thanks for the response. I just drove it (it needs an alignment bad by the way, and the driver's side bumpsteer kit sleeve is bent!) and it feels very tight, still. Going straight, I can feel it very stiff in the rear over bumps and such; so I can definitely feel the difference. I cannot tell if there's more roll or not yet because I did not drive it too hard yet because it's not aligned.

My sway bars are the stock IROC-Z 34mm/24mm sway bars. The car oversteered before, that's for sure. I spoke with Jason at unbalanced and he said this:

"I think only one customer has drilled additional holes in their brackets, the vast majority use it in the lowest hole. My suggestion is to try it there and see what you think. In reality, I believe with the height of the front roll center, the rear roll center should actually be lower than it is in the lowest hole."

That's kinda opposite as to what I was thinking, but I'll leave it in the lowest hole and test & tune springs/sway bars from there.

I can't cut more spring in the rear because then it will be too low and I don't want to lower the front more (car is mainly a street car). What I could do is order springs at a pre-set spring rate and install the weight jackers in the rear.. Should have done this from the get go lol..

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

This was written before your last couple of responses:
Close spaced holes are fine if you're running a rod ended PHR, but if you're using a bushing you want to space them out far enough apart that the bushing won't touch the next hole.

A slot won't really work with a bushing, and for that matter, this bracket design is probably not strong enough to cut a slot in.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

If you look at the pics, that support bracket is in the way and any holes in between the lowest one and the stock are not possible because it is blocking. I'm referring to the axle side brace.

They did a good job welding it and painting it tho!

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

as far as the springs, cut them and run some thick spring isolators out of a 4th gen

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Already have the 4th gen isolators. I cut the rears as much as I could while maintaining the ride height that I liked.. I think I'll keep the PHB this low for now and play around with it until I find its limits and then I will probably end up getting weight jackers and custom rate springs in the rear.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Did you put the 24 mm bar back there? If not, then it likely is not the 24. The 24 mm bar only came with the 36 mm front bar. The 34 came with the 21mm rear bar.

As for the alignment, I can't say enough about doing it on your own. Go over to racerpartswholesale.com and get the cheap caster camber gauge then go to home depot/lowes/whatever and get a laser level. Use a couple of trashbags as your turn plates. I can talk you through doing it on your own if you are interested. My home alignments using these items have given me better results than any alignment I have ever paid for. Total cost of everything is about the same as one alignment at a shop too.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Hi Pablo,

I cannot tell you for sure what happened to the car pre-2006 as I was not the first owner. But I can assure you, I measured the front and rear bars with the mechanic years ago when I replaced bushings and end links with polyurethane, and I just measured it again today to be sure and it was 24.2mm. Mine is an 86 IROC-Z. It's definitely a GM piece, but there is a possibility I guess that at some point it was upgraded?

The do-it-yourself alignment has always interested me, and since i'll have my own space this summer to work on the car that could be a good idea. I'll check out that site right now and see what I can find. Thnx Pablo

SlickTrackGod

I use vinyl flooring squares with a little sand in between them as turnplates.

You can get away with 1" split in PHB height between mounts off the ground with chassis side higher than the axle side. Just measure off the ground to each bolt centerline. If you have a 1/4" split right now then drill that drivers side up to 1". you will need to get it higher up, thats too low unless you go to monster rear springs.

Pablo is correct on the swaybar, you do NOT want a larger bar. If anything you want a smaller bar. Swaybars are a misunderstood feature, they simply are for countering the positive body roll of a vehicle 'on top off' the conventional spring rate. It is a fore/aft-to-lateral ratio. Too much bar will simply lock out the suspensiion and loose mechanical grip.Proper to balnce the car with springs and use bars to fine tune the body roll. 3rd gen springs are way to soft in the rear as it is (hence why these cars experience massive wheelhop when stock) because GM had the fatory roll centers all wrong. You are corredcting the roll axis, but the problem you now have is you are getting it too far down from the cg of the car that you will have to go large springs and compromise ride quality. pablo can use those spring rates with his massive race tires because without them he would induce way too much body roll. you car will not need that high of a rate with the panhard that low...get it up by drilling the chassis side like I suggest. With the length of the PHB, the arch is not a problem in geoometry to have up to 1" split- but again, it needs the split on the chassis side higher because cornering loads will squat it to level.

Don't worry too much about the bushing material in the hole voids, it will clearance itself. The steel rod inside the poly bushings is what cinches the device, not the poly. The poly is merely for the push and pull action of the bar.


also, when you say 'tight', I am sure yopur steering wheel feel very heavy and lots of effort to turn it now- almost like you powerstering pump is weak- thats normal with that severe of a roll axis change

SlickTrackGod

I feel it is far better to run the Jegs unit with just the adjustment down from stoick in the first or second hole from top (second if you have linear performance rear springs) and get the roll axis in better check level wise by raising the front rc with extended ball joints and a slight more aggressive camber setting (.7-.8 neg camber for street use).
Why?
Because you keep[ the roll axis higher to the cg of the car which decreases the invisible lever arm that roll the car with body weight. Think of it as a shorter breaker bar- its harder to roll pressing it. You are reducing positive roll rate which in turn allows for smaller swaybars....which then allows for better mechanical grip over bumps. The suspension acts more independant on all four corners withg lesser swaybar rates and thus the tires remain in contact with the ground better.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Well, I couldn't resist. I drove the car for almost 2 hours even tho it was not aligned yet. Took it through some crazy turns. All I can say is wow, really. I did not expect the rear to be that stable and glued to the floor and predictable.

The only odd things I noticed were that the rear in some turns would wobble slightly (maybe this was the body side going lower than axle side under hard cornering?) and the other thing was braking. Braking definitely felt different. It's hard to tell tho it's as if there is more of a delay when I apply the brakes? Hard to tell it needs more testing..

Dean: I see what you're saying about the 24mm sway bar and I think it matches the car well. It's much better than before i could hardly even oversteer even with 354TQ TPI motor and 3.73's lol. I'll definitely bring the body side up slightly to have around 1" split. That hopefully would eliminate the rear wobble upsetting the car mid turn.

Also, I'm going to dial in -1 camber both sides and try to get 5 and 5.5 caster and 3/32 toe in. I'm also adjusting the camber kit in order to reduce scrub radius and increase SAI. What is max SAI in your opinion?

Also I am running 0.75" extended HOWE ball joints so the roll center up front is very high and close to the CG especially because of weight reduction above the CG and because I am running stock uncut MOOG 5662 springs up front.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Just for the sake of more info: My 85 IROC was originally equipped with the 34/24 combo. If memory serves, some 'Birds were equipped with the 36/24 combo from 86-92. Some Camaros were so equipped but only from 89-92.

JamesC

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Thanks James. Good to know. I think the birds got a bigger front sway bar and softer springs, while the IROCs got stiffer front springs and a smaller sway bar in the front.

On another note, went to alignment shop this morning. Didn't align it and I'll explain why in a sec, but I did get it on the machine to see the specs. Just so happens BY chance my specs were as follows:

camber: FL:-1.1 FR:-1.2
caster: FL: 4.3 FR: 4.8

This is a very good camber setting and a perfect spread of caster. MY SAI on driver's side is 13* but on passenger side it's 16*. Both of these numbers are WAY too low (I'm going to adjust camber kit to push out the spindle and bring the strut mount back in to correct negative camber and then hopefully achieve about 23 to 25 on both sides to make it equal).

Possibly the reason for the wobble during my test drive last night: My car has massive toe out.. Like somewhere in the 0.6 on one side and something bizarre like that on the other side as well. I didn't get it aligned because my driver's side SPOHN bumpsteer kit is bent downwards (the aluminum adjuster part). I checked everything and it looks as though the front sway bar leaned so hard onto the adjuster that it bent it downwards! (the paint on the sway bar came off on the area of the sway bar that is directly above the bent area on the tie rod adjuster, leading me to believe that's what happened.) I wish I took pics to show you. Only that side is bent though so I'm going to call SPOHN and ask them how this could happen on a stock height car? Hopefully they can replace only one side because the other side is not bent, although I found out that the passenger side bolt is LOOSE in the spindle so I'm going to re-torque it to see if it'll stay tight (fingers crossed) otherwise it'll wear out the spindle bore.

Once I get all this BS sorted out I'm hoping to more accurately test out the effects of lowering the PHB to the bottom hole.