63bravo!!

Hi yall iv decided to start building my 3rd third gen soonish its a 92 rs roller my goals are 200+ mph open road racing with a mind to autox. Still deciding but most likely going with tt bbc and t56 anyways my last camaro was a 305 with 2 different heads lol but i managed to get it to about 125 or 130 and it seemed pretty stable ( exept for annoying *** wistle from my window) anyways i am curious as to whether my 92 will be as stable at much greater speeds and if not how can i make it such? Id preferably like it to be able to stay planted on on houston overpasses around the 150 range and somewhat streight line after that ( if you arnt familiar with h-town overpasses maybe someone who has traveled more can shed some light on what i mean) outside of houston iv been stuck on base or taking a cab

Werewolf SS

iTrader: (3)

Not sure if this helps but me and my buddies 98 T/A with a procharger hit 165 one night.

The key is to make sure...
1.) Thier is as little space beneath the car as possible. Most extremely fast cars are very low to the ground to reduce the lift that happens or else a car is likely to loose traction on the front tires or in extreme cases flip front to back.

2.) More drag in the back. This is the true reason behind a spoiler. And not a rice wing or some speed shop generic wing kit. Real wings are made specificaly for a vehicle with the intent of maxizing downforce while keeping aerodynamics. The reason for the wing is at high speeds (150 and above) the lift being created under the car actually lifts weight off the back wheels. This causes a loss of traction which is big no no at high speed and guarantees a wrecked car and possible death of driver and occupants.

3.) Smooth road. Any bumps or holes just one is what it takes to get a car airborn at high speeds as evidence here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA2JjVqS3Us
Man died running from cops hit a bump went airborn landed lost control and crashed into a tree.

4.) Tires. Not some kumho ecstas but something like a mickey thompson ET Street drag radial. You need a tire rated for 200mph so the tire doesn't rip apart while your hitting top speed which would also result in a guaranteed wreck.

5.) You need some power to hit that speed. If I remember the Bugatti Veyron special I watched awhile back they said it take the bugatti 400 hp to get to 150, after that it takes 700 to get to 200 and all 1000 to get to it's top speed. Once you past the 150 mark the power needed to go faster essentialy doubles as the car has to work much harder to overcome the oncoming wind resistance at that speed.

6.) Safety, I recommend finding a car track for autox that has a long straight away to test your cars top speed, that way your not putting others at risk. Here in central florida we have the famous sebring raceway with a near 2 mile straight away in it's layout.

So just some tips I'm sure others can chime in specifics.

Project 3.4 Camaro

I eventually plan to aim for that top speed goal as well, albeit WAY down the road, like a decade probably, but curious how good do you think the stock 3 piece spoilers are for high speed downforce/stability? I've rather speculated based on the shape of the spoiler and car, I imagine at high speed it would be rather functional and effective.

MotorMouth

If you really want to reach that goal watch this and see exactly what it takes to build a street supercar. It ain't cheap or easy! Going streight at 200+ is not the same as making a car that goes 200+ and needs to turn.

Man-Made Bugatti Veyron Super Car 1/4 HD


Man-Made Bugatti Veyron Super Car 2/4 HD


Man-Made Bugatti Veyron Super Car 3/4 HD


Man-Made Bugatti Veyron Super Car 4/4 HD

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Are you saying you're gonna be trying to hit 200+ mph on public overpasses? WTF dude? Are you that irresponsible with other people's lives?

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Let him try. Its called population control.

If he hits an overpass at even 100, he'll realize just how arced they are & that our cars CANNOT fly. Get launched, yes. But the landing really messes up your day!

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

You do not want to use an Drag Radial to haul *** down the highway at 150+. Drag radials have too soft of a sidewall.
What you want are high performance dry weather Z-rated tires, like a Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar tire.

The power to go from 180mph to 200mph requires most cars to double the HP of the motor.
So if your car needed 350hp to hit 180mph, you would need 700hp to increase your speed 20mph to hit 200mph.

I got my 86 Trans Am up to around 160mph and it was pretty stable.

63bravo!!

lol of couse not i was using the overpass as a reference to the type of turns i would like to make who would drive that fast 10 stories high? Lol they freak me out at normal speeds

63bravo!!

I dont think that power is going to be a problem... at least i hope not lol tt bbc should get me there if not then......well idk tt and sc? Either way im goin to get there im just figuing how to keep controle at that speed

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

$10-15K should be all you need for the motor and fuel system to get a 800+hp at the wheels.
Another $4-5K for the chassis mods and braking system. you don't want all that power and speed and not be able to stop.

63bravo!!

Oh ya im a big supporter of safety before speed the engine is actualy going to be the very last thing i upgrade im gonna make shure its going to be safe to go that fast b4 i do maybe ellington will let me test and tune

built91Z28

Since weight will hold you back a lot at that speed have you considered doing a TT LSx instead? You can easily get the power you would need out of it and save some weight.

63bravo!!

My research has led me to beleive that a bbcwith alu heads only weighs about 100# more than lsx and i am warry using a platform thats only been around a couple of years,call me old school but i know that the bb will do it and maybe a little more friendly about it also i figure 2500 for a block wit a max ci of 500ish (lsx) or about the same for a tall deck bb with 600 ish?

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

LS engines were first introduced in the 1997 Corvette. Nothing new about the LS-series.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

There aren't many road courses that support 200 mph. What track do you have in mind? Since you are talking about a road course and especially auto-x I would shy away from a BB. I don't know the weights off hand, but I would think the weight difference between a BB and LSX would be closer to 200#. I understand you are old school, but these engines have done very well in 24hr racing in the C5-R and C6-R. They are reliable at high horsepower.

DJ Delsym

iTrader: (4)

One thing I have been told about the BBC is that the tall deck is going to have fitment issues with the exhaust so I would keep that in mind, but to reach this goal it takes fabrication so custom headers shouldn't be a problem.

63bravo!!

correct custom headers well custom anything isnt out of the question...my main concern with the lsx is not making enough power to go 200 or lasting 150+k miles and being tame enough for street duty can it do all of this?

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I think its funny that people are taking this thread seriously. Hah.

Big block, 200 mph, autox... hahaha c'mon, do your parents know you are on their computer?

By the way, weight has almost nothing to do with top speed. The Kugel 92 trans am set the record for the fastest stock bodied car in the world at 308 mph. It weighed around 4000 lbs on purpose.

built91Z28

I dont think any motor made for those power levels are also made to last over 150K miles.

From some of the builds I've seen on this board, a TT LSx can easily make 1000 horse or a little more. That should be enough. Even with a small block, the engine compartment with twin turbos is extremely cramped. I wouldnt want to try to find enough room with a big block.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Actually, you want your car to be heavy if you are going for top speed.
More weight is bad for acceleration but good for top speed stability.
If you are trying to get to 200mph in the 1/4 mile, then you want to lighten the car, for 2+ mile runs, you add weight.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

200 mph forced induction power is not going to be good for an autocross car. You will never hook up as boost comes on and its hard to stay out of boost.

I would think 700hp on motor could get you to 200mph but it would take alittle while. The better the aero is on the car, the less power you will need. Callaway made 254mph on a 800-900 hp 80's style C4 vette. They had considerable R&D spent on modifying the body and underneath of the car to work at those speeds. That car is basically what you need to build, just with abit less power. It has the suspension and reliability built into it to be a 200 mph street car that can autocross.

Problem with a turbo car is that if the power comes on too quickly, you will break tires loose on the autox course and spin out. I have a small turbo on a big small block and the power is pretty instant. it comes on quick and is very violent to the rear tires. NO way I could autox that car even tho it would handle pretty good i think. Thats only 650whp. I think I have the power to go 200 if I had the gearing but hard to say.

If you have the coin, a BIG inch all motor aluminum LSX for 600-650 hp on motor plus 250 shot will be perfect setup. 402-416 LS2/LS3 or 427 LS7 type motor. On motor alone it may touch 190 mph but certainly have the power to get to 200 on the spray. The vettes can do 190 out the box with 500 hp so a camaro with 600-650 could be close. Just need a few big bottles to last if you spray for over 10-15 seconds while trying for 200. BUT it may take some stretch of road to hit 200 if you dont have massive amounts of power.

If you want to hit 200mph in a short distance of say 1 mile or so from a roll, you will need 900-1000whp if the car isnt that aerodynamic. Stock bodied 98-02 SS camaro will go 200 mph in a STANDING mile with 1000whp. Thats 0 to 200 in 1 mile. If you started at 60mph roll, it may only take 750-800whp to eventually hit 200 in a short span of road.

For that power you need forced induction. A big n/a motor with a few stages of nitrous could get it done but thats alot of bottles in the car.

With a stick and right tires/gear, you maybeable to hook 600hp on a all motor car. Atleast have better throttle control with the all motor car compared to a turbo car thats either in boost or not in boost. Blower may be an option but still boost can come on quick and brake tires loose with all the torque.

63bravo!!

Hmmmm so i ca build the car for both, however the engine is going to be the trouble to do double duty... i could just build two motors and swap them out depending on what im doing i could probably build a bb for top speed then a sb for auto x as long as i wouldnt have to change anything parts wize between the two as far as suspension goes.... i was thinking about going with spohn for all of my suspension exept the sfcs coin is not a big problem I'm deploying soon....

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I would try a nitrous LSx motor or maybe a big sbc. A good 400+ inch sbc on a SHP block or something can do near 600 hp with a big solid roller. Still be controllable on the autox course provided you keep the gearing right and use big sticky tires. Its going to come down to how well you can control the pedal. WIth a good 2 stage nitrous shot, direct port, you could get another 250-300 out of it if needed for your top speed runs.

For an open road course, however, if there are many straight aways and you are spraying on each one, you will run out of nitrous RATHER quickly. You barely get 5-6 1/4 mile passes on a 10 lb bottle with a 150 shot when running mid high 10 second runs. Road course will kill the bottles quickly, so forced induction comes to mind.

Or a big inch big block since you can make well over 500 cubic inches and make over 700-800 hp on pump gas when done right.

89_RS

Something is off here. Aston Martin can do 190mph with the Vantage and it has a 510bhp V12 that is attached to a car that weighs 3700lbs and has a final drive ratio of 3.71:1. The Vanquish S had a 520bhp V12 and could do 200mph and its was pretty much the same size car.

63bravo!!

Idk il figure out the motor at some point lol thats the last thing im putting in regardless.... im thinking of putting thin sheet metal along the bottom of the car to make a smooth surface lowering the car and maby a front spoiler and rear wing anyone know a shop in houston that does this stuff? I agree it shouldnt be to terribly hard to do lingenfelter did it in a 383 vette years ago the zr1 does it with 600ish and porches do it with way less if my 305 did 130ish a bb should get me there im only woried about stability once i get there and that dam wistle from my window lol airbags would be a great solution for me i think because even at stock heighth i scraped on the monster speedbumps in my neighbor hood has anyone had experiance with autox or high speeds with these?

63bravo!!

Just looked ingenfelter built a 88 vett 355 tt sbc900hp went 254.76 mph a 86 vett with a 408 540 hp ran 206mph top speed for over 5 minits in the silver state clasic.. obviously these are rare examples but it shows it can be done hell maybe bbc n/a is all i will need a 498 or bigger with a tall deck could be verry reliable and have enough to get me to 200 if not then sc or tt would. Problem aint gettn tjere its stayin in one peice once i do lol

camaronewbie

You guys can have at it, and good luck. I love my 3rd gen, and I'd love to open it up just once and safely see what she'll do. But 200+ is too far!

I'm no expert, but I'd think the 'Bird would have a more stable platform than the 'Maro - the bird has a pointy front nose, no open light pockets - less drag, more aerodynamic. The wife has a 1997 Z28 LT1 auto - we had it at 120mph the other day - it was no different than 60mph. It has no mods, just stock - it needs brakes, has bald tires, has a miss (bad wires I think), and it was no different than driving 35mph. But the 4th gen is a much different shape too. A long time ago I was in a 1968 Mustang that we got to 140mph - took us 3 miles to get there, but above 100 it felt like it looked - a box being thrown down the road.

I'd think the stock spoiler would be a waste of time - looking at the Veyron - it has a massive spoiler that automatically moves and changes angle per velocity. There are several other changes that the Veyron makes automatically based on velocity - suspension, air intake, and a slew of other things. The air intakes on the sides - on the insides they actually reroute airflow through the car at higher speeds, rather than just feed cool air to the motor. The spoiler makes several changes, and several more changes at the 150+ speeds, all programmed.

Look how low to the ground it is - might be 2 in under there. Youd have a hard time getting enough exhaust tucked under a 3rd gen well enough to have a completely flat bottom that could run that low to the ground. And even if you could, what about the air dam - it's 4in on it's own - you shorten it enough to get the ground clearance, and then it won't work - overheat! The Veyron (and the other 200mph cars) all have different cooling air flow from the sides, not the bottom like a 3rd gen.

And even in the Veyron, you can't just be driving down the highway, and decide to 'open her up', and hit 200+. It's a programmed function - if you want above 150mph, you have to stop the car, shut it off, and reprogram it for the excess - it won't just do it on it's own. It's not capable of making all the suspension changes, engine changes, tranny changes, spoiler changes, and airflow changes 'on the fly'.

I'm not saying you can't hit 200mph - I'm just thinking that there's no way a 3rd gen is going to run 200+ for any length of driving like the Veyron, Porsche, Lambo, etc. Getting a car to 200 isn't that hard - keeping it there is a whole new ballgame that requires engineering from the ground up for that intention. Watch how easily a Sprint Cup car loses it at 180, and they're designed to go fast for a long time.

Anyways - good luck. I'll be looking for the results (or the obituary)

63bravo!!

Just watched the bugatti vid hmmm that spoiler looks promising i could probably make that out of carbon fiber make it computer controled have my co-drivervtune it at speed then set a program to drop the bags up the spoiler when i wana go FAST lol just read your post camaronewby great minds think alike hu? Hmmm it is a 92 its got those gfx maybe i cab tap into those too i noticed the birds have the park lights in the gfx too.... i can make a special gfx using one from each car that might give it enough flow with dual puller fans and dual pushers to keep cool your right completely flat is going to be hard for the bottom but i can atleast keep it smooth. Hmmm if i have to go cowl hood i can use the additional air for radiator instead of the engine as well

63bravo!!

Orr89rocz i havnt seen your camaro in houston what area are u from?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Thats because my camaro is not in houston. I left it in PA when I moved here 2 weeks ago. I have a 99 TA for my driver down here.

63bravo!!

Ahhh that would explain it how do you like the wheater so far i went to pa last winter and about died ( i was wearing shorts and t-shirt lol) it usualy doesnt rain for two weeks sreight btw

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yeah its too hot for me here but i hear back in PA its been 100 deg too so cant win. Winters can be brutal up north. This past year was no joke. Over 4 ft of snow at 1 time.

63bravo!!

Yep makes cai seem kinda pointless in summer here iv never ran so slow until i went to ft ibdian town gap pa lol could barely brethe and had to run 2 mi

Project 3.4 Camaro

Someone else mentioned it as well, but this is completely wrong, the biggest obstacle to really high speeds, such as 200+ is air itself, believe it or not, it doesn't take much power at all to move a car fast, most of that power, is actually used pushing the air out of the way, but imo power and aerodynamics are the easy parts, and not what I'm worried about for obtaining that kind of speed, our cars have a drag coefficient of .34(based on an IROC-Z) a base camaro without gfx is actually a little more aerodynamic, and the headlight pockets can be covered with headlight covers to improve aerodynamics, lowering the car will also help by comparison, the bugatti veyron has a drag coefficient of .36, though Idk what spoiler position that figure is listed for. As far as needing a large spoiler for stability, that was also somewhat wrong...if you pay attention you'll notice the bugatti fully retracts its spoiler for top speed runs, and it is only angled at two degrees. Power also isn't much of a concern either, considering most cars manage 200 mph on about 600-700 hp, which is definitely doable, and as already mentioned our cars are pretty aerodynamic.

The things I'm wondering about are stability of the shape, such as underneath the car, would probably need diffusers, then things like axles, can they take that kind of friction and heat, or the same with the brakes, basically can the moving components of our cars take the friction and heat from such speeds and safely rotate that fast..knowing that our cars weren't designed for those speeds. So does anyone know much about strength of components and whether or not anything custom would need to be made for stuff like listed above?

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

3rd gens can do 307mph on the salt flats using the 87-90 Formula/Trans Am spoiler.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Someone had one up to 307 o.O? And can anyone post a pic of the spoiler type...I'm not very familiar with the birds.

63bravo!!

Good point top notch wheel berings would be in order i assume as well as fluids that can take the heat trans oil and rear diff coolers of course (wait can a m/t use a cooler?) A set up similar to the mclaren f1 could work with the air thing maybe a small fan between where the gas tank and the sheet metal meet up ( seems like a potential high turbulance area) it could also flow streight onto a diff cooler and exess could be run to breakes for cooling driveshaft would be my main concern say i geared it to run at 4000 rpm in 6th the driveshaft would be turning at around 8000rmp

t-top havoc

iTrader: (3)

Sounds like a build for the open-road racing that happens 1 time a year somewhere in Utah(?), where the road is closed for the weekend.
They don't let just anyone pull in for the run.

The vehicles are tech'd beyond imagination.
IIRC, the driver has to show proof he//she can handle the vehicle at different speeds-- much like the Salt Flats. Different speeds and different distances.
Like pro-stock drags & Flats, the driver MUST be able to identify EVERYTHING safety-related while strapped in, blindfolded.

Can't recall if it's a licensing event-- like the Flats & IHRA & NHRA, for example.

It has been YEARS since I've read about it, maybe it's no longer done.!?.

( edit )

It's not just a straight line--lots of curves, & a few hills.

63bravo!!

Yep thats one of the types of racing i am interested in mostly theres two here in tx big bend open road race and road runner open road race so twice a year here they are both about 100 miles total and have different classes based on top speed and regs are set out different for each class... theres also the illegal cannon ball run that goes across the country but i dont know much about it theres a post near the top of the thread with a video and me and some of the guys in my unit like to race from armory to armory together(started when we had 20 minits to get from westheimer and 6 to el campo in 20 minits it was so fun we just started always doing it)

63bravo!!

Oops ment rosemberg el campo is my new unit

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

63bravo!!

it appears that the 85-90 gtas had the marker lights in the gfx( not a big bird guy so dont quote me) i wonder if i used these plus the side vents on the 92 maro gfx with the main front intake clear and double pusher double puller fans 4 total how far i could trim the air dam, possibly deleat alltogether...
That will have to be a r and d thing unless its already been tried also maby a bigger than 19x31x3 radiator.... if i could totaly get rid of the air dam i could possibly run a bellypan from the front bumper all the way to the rear axel ending in a diffuser and fan... hmmm i imagine that could deffinately help the drag coeficient as well as get rid of unwanted lift/maybe produce positive downforce. Has annyone looked into airbags for lowering as well as handeling? One other thing that might work out is routing air out of the front wheelwells and either venting it elseware or using it to cool something... i wish i had the connections or know how to find high pressure areas of our cars

63bravo!!

something allong the lines of this might also helphttp://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1968155

blackbmagic

Swap the motors out depending on what you are doing? Do you realize how much time it would take to swap setups on a car that not only will have over 700hp possibly but an aerodynamics setup as well to support 200+ mph. Then have the car set up for autocross? Its not at all worth it. If you are 100% serious and have the money to do such you are better off having 2 different cars. These cars are currently and unfortunately a dime a dozen. You can pick rollers up for 300-500 bucks and fully working cars from 900-15,000.

Not only that but the time, fabrication and skills you will need to do such correctly and safely. The last thing you should be worrying about is the noise from you window. You will have countless more problems at 200mph if thats what you are worrying about.

I hope you are not planning on DD this car. If you have ever built a true high performance big block you would know thats not even a question.

Just for the record though, Ive been in countless shops that have built max-performance early small blocks to handle well over 600hp. SO why have you completely ruled out the idea of a small block. Actually I know 2 local guys who have built stage 2 nitrous injected 350's with 475whp and 900whp on nitrous. Both motors off the same platform sbc 350 chevy .030 over, bowtie heads, Super victor IM with NOS port injection. Comp roller valvetrains, One using AED 950 and the other A dominator. Hooker super comps/Walker 1 7/8, MSD billet setups. 10.1:1 comp

Do you have any experience with high performance motors or vehicles at all?

Some people set a goal way higher than what they can handle. 400whp seems tame doesnt it? Get a guy whos fastest car hes driven is a stock sb305 behind the wheel he wont know what to do with himself or the vehicle. Ive seen it dozens of times.

Is this a goal or a dream. We all have both but time and money puts restraints on us all. Some of us get to accomplish one of those and others never accomplish any.

63bravo!!

actualy my buddy and i have the record forswaping a m988 engine (4hrs) and i plan on using allot of the stuf that makes it possible im 100% serious about this build as well im not rich by any means but when deployed i make fairly good money for my age. I dont plan on finnishing for probably annother 5 years or so but i will finish. The window noise is a joke i could realy care less about that. Thanks to all of the ppl actualy taking this thread seriously because the main point of it is to try and find out and thereby prevent the problems that could occur at such high speeds not just throw a 1000 hp engine in a camaro floor it and hope for the best. Thx again for all that are taking me seriously

MotorMouth

It was Nevada and ESPN used to show it. When I watched it they had one of Gordons cars and a red 3rd gen. He had to lower the front nose piece to keep the air from lifting the car. But he used the wrong tire and when he topped the hill and hit the Nitrous a tire blew and he was lucky he was not killed. The car flipped for over 1/4 all that was left was the cage! They don't repave the roads in Nevada unless they have too. All they do is spray tar and lay pebbles over it. So he chose to use a treaded tire not slicks, it was the wrong choice.

Here is the race it's in Virginia City, Nevada. http://www.openroadracing.com/

blackbmagic

M988? meaning m98? Im not sure what an m988 is. But an m98 is a bmw motor out of the older bmw's 4 cylinder easy swap(old meaning early 80's late 70's I believe. At 75 or 80 hp its hardly HP.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

here are a couple of cool articles,

http://books.google.com/books?id=GUC...0flats&f=false


http://www.kugelkomponents.com/bonne...onneville.html

iroc stangs

I really wouldnt use the same car for top speed and autox. But if you insist, would think a big cube lsx engine (ls3) with a supercharger and possibly a small shot of nitrous would do you good. You would probaly want the car as low to the ground as possible or make a custom chin and spoiler, spoiler regardless if its lowered or not. You would want to stay with a smaller rim as you would have less traviling distance and something like 3.42 or 3.27 should be good for gearing. At those speeds i would really insist of 110% tearing down every little piece of that car and rebuilding any thing other then metal and interior with 100% new parts. Doesnt seem to save otherwise. And brakes i would say something like a brembo big brake kit would be good with competly new everything brake system and you MAY want to make somekind of system that will cool down the brakes because this will help with autocrossing and if you need to slow down as fast as you can from 200mph. Well if you, or anyone every truely does this Good luck!

also you would with out a doubt replace all windows with heavy duty thicker windows and new seals. you would also defintly want to shave door handles, antenna, and you will want headlight covers. You will also want about every cooling accesory on the planet about lol, a iroc hood make functional or a early functional fiberglass z28 hood will also help with cooling. you will also want no body damage and slick paint (sounds stupid i know but hey it looks better and it WILL help the slightest bit). also nitrous will help with cooling, same with menthol injection. I belive airbags make VERY sloppy handiling. I would really insist on picking one, not both. And be ready to spend a BOAT LOAD of money. maybe swap everthing expect body/interior from a c6 zr1 vette LOL. And if (i hope to god your not) are going try to do this on a street, dont even deal with a front plate lol.

63bravo!!

should have been more clear a m988 is a humvee in truth i will probably not competitavely autox this car i already striped down everything for paint once i get it back from the shop i will weld all of the seams i can find and start on the routing of air from gfx for cooling and getting drivetrain together i obviously wont race it on the road but i will want to drive it to work occasionalythx for the info on air ride wont go with that maby coil overs to get the height where i want it roll cage suspension breakes then mock up entire driveline and back to paint then interior after that it will just be drivetrain and feul mods