Suspension System Rebuild Project! Recommendations?
11-02-2000, 10:06 AM
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Suspension System Rebuild Project! Recommendations?
I'm looking to just basically tear out my suspension system and rebuild everything. I'm already installing Lakewood LCAs and Adjustable Panhard Rod on the rear, but I want to completely re-do the springs and shocks/struts because my ride is rough as hell, but I also want this thing to have a nice launch off the line with minimal wheel spinning.
I'm not sure what show it was, but they were putting these springs in a Rustang that had a variable weight rating, depending on how much of a load was on the spring. I was liking that idea, but wonder what you guys think about that. Also, since Edelbrock doesn't make shocks and struts for the third gen 'Bird, what shocks/struts would you recommend?
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1986 Firebird, LG4 305, bored .040 over, Crane cam, Edelbrock headers, Hooker Aerochamber muffler, loud and fast.
"Gimme fuel, gimme fire, gimme that which I desire!" - Metallica, "Fuel"
I'm not sure what show it was, but they were putting these springs in a Rustang that had a variable weight rating, depending on how much of a load was on the spring. I was liking that idea, but wonder what you guys think about that. Also, since Edelbrock doesn't make shocks and struts for the third gen 'Bird, what shocks/struts would you recommend?
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1986 Firebird, LG4 305, bored .040 over, Crane cam, Edelbrock headers, Hooker Aerochamber muffler, loud and fast.
"Gimme fuel, gimme fire, gimme that which I desire!" - Metallica, "Fuel"
11-02-2000, 08:42 PM
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Car: Camaro Z28 1LE R7U
Engine: 5.0 TPI
Transmission: G-Force Dog-Ring T5
If you intend to street drive your car, want a reasonable ride with good launch capability, I would recommend KONI "specials" or reds for shocks. If you want to lower the car (I assume you do) then I would recommend iether springs from Eibach or Suspension Techniques. Both lower the car about the same with reasonable spring rates and both use a variable rate rear spring which controbutes to good weight transfer for a nice launch.
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Karl Hunter
Hunter Motorsports
Vancouver, B.C. CANADA
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Karl Hunter
Hunter Motorsports
Vancouver, B.C. CANADA
11-02-2000, 08:51 PM
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Actually, I don't wanna lower the car. LOL I'm not one of those Civic drivers. LOL
I would love Koni's, but those are EXPENSIVE, aren't they? How are KYBs? Oh, I found out today that Edelbrock is making Performance IAS shocks and struts for ThirdGens. There's no price, yet, but there is a part number. So, I may get those. They work wonders in my dad's 95 Rustang GT.
What about springs that give good performance but don't really lower the car (too much).
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1986 Firebird, LG4 305, bored .040 over, Crane cam, Edelbrock headers, Hooker Aerochamber muffler, loud and fast.
"Gimme fuel, gimme fire, gimme that which I desire!" - Metallica, "Fuel"
I would love Koni's, but those are EXPENSIVE, aren't they? How are KYBs? Oh, I found out today that Edelbrock is making Performance IAS shocks and struts for ThirdGens. There's no price, yet, but there is a part number. So, I may get those. They work wonders in my dad's 95 Rustang GT.
What about springs that give good performance but don't really lower the car (too much).
------------------
1986 Firebird, LG4 305, bored .040 over, Crane cam, Edelbrock headers, Hooker Aerochamber muffler, loud and fast.
"Gimme fuel, gimme fire, gimme that which I desire!" - Metallica, "Fuel"
11-03-2000, 12:22 AM
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Car: Camaro Z28 1LE R7U
Engine: 5.0 TPI
Transmission: G-Force Dog-Ring T5
Aw, cumon! just lower it an inch or two )
Naah. You don't HAVE to lower it if you don't want to, but stock height to me is just TOO high. Way too much fender gap IMHO. The Eibach or S.T. springs only take off about an inch and a half, still providing LOTS of suspension travel both front and rear (provided the proper bump stops are used) and the ride is firm, but still quite comfortable. If stock height is what you insist on I would recommend a set of stock springs: code CDB in the front and NNN or NNL in the rear (NNN springs are EXTREAMLY hard to find, not any stiffer, just a tad lower.) If you cannot find a set of these springs then go to the local parts jobber and order a fresh set of MOOG replacement springs. They should keep the height about stock, and the spring rates are very close to stock, sometimes a little higher which is to your advantage.
As far as shocks go you really get what you pay for. KYB's are cheap, I will say no more. I would personally put in a set of Monroe Sens-A-Tracks before I would put in KYBs. Just a personal choice there, but my experiance with KYB shocks has been that they are far too soft for a WS-6 T.A. or a Z-28 Camaro, and they wear out quickly and get even softer. Unfortunately Monroe discontinued the Formula GP line - these were very good shocks for the money.
If you are going to spend any money on the suspension, spend it on good shocks - they are the most important part.
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Karl Hunter
Hunter Motorsports
Vancouver, B.C. CANADA
)Naah. You don't HAVE to lower it if you don't want to, but stock height to me is just TOO high. Way too much fender gap IMHO. The Eibach or S.T. springs only take off about an inch and a half, still providing LOTS of suspension travel both front and rear (provided the proper bump stops are used) and the ride is firm, but still quite comfortable. If stock height is what you insist on I would recommend a set of stock springs: code CDB in the front and NNN or NNL in the rear (NNN springs are EXTREAMLY hard to find, not any stiffer, just a tad lower.) If you cannot find a set of these springs then go to the local parts jobber and order a fresh set of MOOG replacement springs. They should keep the height about stock, and the spring rates are very close to stock, sometimes a little higher which is to your advantage.
As far as shocks go you really get what you pay for. KYB's are cheap, I will say no more. I would personally put in a set of Monroe Sens-A-Tracks before I would put in KYBs. Just a personal choice there, but my experiance with KYB shocks has been that they are far too soft for a WS-6 T.A. or a Z-28 Camaro, and they wear out quickly and get even softer. Unfortunately Monroe discontinued the Formula GP line - these were very good shocks for the money.
If you are going to spend any money on the suspension, spend it on good shocks - they are the most important part.
------------------
Karl Hunter
Hunter Motorsports
Vancouver, B.C. CANADA
11-03-2000, 02:44 PM
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Karl,
I'm curious what "provided the proper bump stops are used" you're referring to (I think I might need them!). I installed Hotchkis springs a while back, and suffer from front binding (steering for example) when under compression (braking or going up steep angles). When I push down on the front of the car vs. the back, there is no travel in the front. Any idea on a fix?
Thanks, Dave '91 T/A
I'm curious what "provided the proper bump stops are used" you're referring to (I think I might need them!). I installed Hotchkis springs a while back, and suffer from front binding (steering for example) when under compression (braking or going up steep angles). When I push down on the front of the car vs. the back, there is no travel in the front. Any idea on a fix?
Thanks, Dave '91 T/A
11-03-2000, 02:54 PM
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What kind of prices am I looking at for the variable rate, standard (or near standard) ride height springs? And what brand/rate would you recommend for a good ride with minimal wheel hop/spinning off the starting line?
------------------
1986 Firebird, LG4 305, bored .040 over, Crane cam, Edelbrock headers, Hooker Aerochamber muffler, loud and fast.
"Gimme fuel, gimme fire, gimme that which I desire!" - Metallica, "Fuel"
------------------
1986 Firebird, LG4 305, bored .040 over, Crane cam, Edelbrock headers, Hooker Aerochamber muffler, loud and fast.
"Gimme fuel, gimme fire, gimme that which I desire!" - Metallica, "Fuel"
11-04-2000, 01:31 AM
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Car: Camaro Z28 1LE R7U
Engine: 5.0 TPI
Transmission: G-Force Dog-Ring T5
Dave:
The proper bump stops for a lowered car are always shorter than stock, and are usually harder. I choose the proper bumpstops for each individual car, depending on the modifications and what the car is used for. On my car for example I have a VERY short front urethane bumpstop in place of the O.E. rubber one, but my car is quite low, I have camber plates that allow more bump travel and I want as much suspension travel as I can get before coming in contact with the bumpstops. This does mean however that when driving my car on the street I cannot charge over railroad tracks as a stock F-Body may be able to do. If I did I would run the risk of seriously bottoming the car and doing some real serious damage. This is a risk I am prepared to take, as I do not drive the car on the street much, and I am aware of the need to slow WAY down over such large bumps. On a car that is a daily driver I would not normally put such short hard bumpstops on. I would just cut the stock ones down (if they were in satisfactory condition) or put a shorter rubber one on. The less rubber there is in a bumpstop the stiffer it is, so this not only provides more suspension bump travel, but it makes the bumpstop much stiffer and more positive, I.E. you really know when you have hit the bumpstop.
The problem with running a lowered car with stock bumpstops is that the design of the stock bumpstop makes it fairly soft initially and it is harder to tell if you are making too much contact with the bumpstop. On a street car there should be about 1.5 to 2 inches of space (a bare minimum of 1") between the top most part of the bumpstop and the point on the crossmember where the bumpstop makes contact. This may not seem like very much but this makes for 3 to 4 inches of bump travel at the wheel which is acceptable if the springs and shocks are up to the task. If there is less than that then the suspension will be running on the bumpstops almost all the time (unless you only drive on perfectly flat roads, and I haven't found one yet) and this puts alot of stress on all the moving suspension components in the front end. If the bumpstops are already cut, or shorter ones have been installed, and the car is still bottoming (hitting the bumpstops) more than it should then the car needs more spring or more ride height, usually the latter. I have helped alot of people who have lowered their cars too much trying to make it handle only to find that it has gottern worse. There is definately such a thing as TOO LOW. If you have simply installed a set of aftermarket lowering springs with no other modifications to iether the spring or the car, (and providing all the factory rubber spring isolaters are installed) then all you need to do is cut the triangular part at the top of the bumpstop clean off so all you have is a rectangular shapd piece of rubber. If this does not provide the clearance you need then your car is probably too low for street use, but if you love the lowness, as alot of folks do, then get a set of Energy Suspension bumpstops - the stepped cylindrical type and cut them down until yu have acceptable clearance, but not below the final step - this will leave one cylindrical piece of urethane. Attach the bumpstops to the OUTERMOST holes on the controll arms. If this does nor solve your problems then the car is most definately too low. Use spacers on top of the front springs to raise the ride height.
As far as the back goes the best bumpstop is that of a 92 (92 ONLY) Z-28. They are made of foam rubber instead of hard solid rubber. Trim them until you have 2 inches (minimum) of bump travel at normal ride height. 2 inches may not sound like much, but it goes a long way, still 3 inches is better.
Gilmour:
For your car I would recommend the Eibach Pro-Kit springs or the Suspension Techniques standard lowering springs. This will not make the car very low, and the ride will be nice. Wheel hop off the line has very little to do with the type of spring you use. Wheel hop is always caused by windup somewhere in the drivekine or suspension. For example the lower control arm bushings compress under acceleration until the wheels break traction, then all the energey stored in the compressed bushing is released and the axle moves, then it hooks again and it is this type of cycle that causes wheel hop. One major cause of wheel hop on ThirdGens is the transmission mount. Yes that's right the transmission mount in conjunction with the torque arm mount contributes to wheel hop. All the guys with 5-speeds will know about the horrible bouncing shifter. This is one of my biggest pet peaves. The stock transmission mount is so flimsy that it stretches up to 2 inches on launches or hard shifts. This stretch causes pinion angle change because the torque arm is attached to the back of the transmission, and under acceleration the torque arm is pulling upwards on the mount which in turn stretches the trans mount and the rear end rotates. All is not lost, Energey Suspension makes a fabulous urethane transmission mount and a urethane torque arm bushing that eliminates this problem.
Holy Crap this post is long. Anyway I could go on about wheel hop for a while, but if I write much more here people will think I have no life.
Maybe I should start working on a set of technical articles on various suspension problems and stuff. Anybody interested?
------------------
Karl Hunter
Hunter Motorsports
Vancouver, B.C. CANADA
The proper bump stops for a lowered car are always shorter than stock, and are usually harder. I choose the proper bumpstops for each individual car, depending on the modifications and what the car is used for. On my car for example I have a VERY short front urethane bumpstop in place of the O.E. rubber one, but my car is quite low, I have camber plates that allow more bump travel and I want as much suspension travel as I can get before coming in contact with the bumpstops. This does mean however that when driving my car on the street I cannot charge over railroad tracks as a stock F-Body may be able to do. If I did I would run the risk of seriously bottoming the car and doing some real serious damage. This is a risk I am prepared to take, as I do not drive the car on the street much, and I am aware of the need to slow WAY down over such large bumps. On a car that is a daily driver I would not normally put such short hard bumpstops on. I would just cut the stock ones down (if they were in satisfactory condition) or put a shorter rubber one on. The less rubber there is in a bumpstop the stiffer it is, so this not only provides more suspension bump travel, but it makes the bumpstop much stiffer and more positive, I.E. you really know when you have hit the bumpstop.
The problem with running a lowered car with stock bumpstops is that the design of the stock bumpstop makes it fairly soft initially and it is harder to tell if you are making too much contact with the bumpstop. On a street car there should be about 1.5 to 2 inches of space (a bare minimum of 1") between the top most part of the bumpstop and the point on the crossmember where the bumpstop makes contact. This may not seem like very much but this makes for 3 to 4 inches of bump travel at the wheel which is acceptable if the springs and shocks are up to the task. If there is less than that then the suspension will be running on the bumpstops almost all the time (unless you only drive on perfectly flat roads, and I haven't found one yet) and this puts alot of stress on all the moving suspension components in the front end. If the bumpstops are already cut, or shorter ones have been installed, and the car is still bottoming (hitting the bumpstops) more than it should then the car needs more spring or more ride height, usually the latter. I have helped alot of people who have lowered their cars too much trying to make it handle only to find that it has gottern worse. There is definately such a thing as TOO LOW. If you have simply installed a set of aftermarket lowering springs with no other modifications to iether the spring or the car, (and providing all the factory rubber spring isolaters are installed) then all you need to do is cut the triangular part at the top of the bumpstop clean off so all you have is a rectangular shapd piece of rubber. If this does not provide the clearance you need then your car is probably too low for street use, but if you love the lowness, as alot of folks do, then get a set of Energy Suspension bumpstops - the stepped cylindrical type and cut them down until yu have acceptable clearance, but not below the final step - this will leave one cylindrical piece of urethane. Attach the bumpstops to the OUTERMOST holes on the controll arms. If this does nor solve your problems then the car is most definately too low. Use spacers on top of the front springs to raise the ride height.
As far as the back goes the best bumpstop is that of a 92 (92 ONLY) Z-28. They are made of foam rubber instead of hard solid rubber. Trim them until you have 2 inches (minimum) of bump travel at normal ride height. 2 inches may not sound like much, but it goes a long way, still 3 inches is better.
Gilmour:
For your car I would recommend the Eibach Pro-Kit springs or the Suspension Techniques standard lowering springs. This will not make the car very low, and the ride will be nice. Wheel hop off the line has very little to do with the type of spring you use. Wheel hop is always caused by windup somewhere in the drivekine or suspension. For example the lower control arm bushings compress under acceleration until the wheels break traction, then all the energey stored in the compressed bushing is released and the axle moves, then it hooks again and it is this type of cycle that causes wheel hop. One major cause of wheel hop on ThirdGens is the transmission mount. Yes that's right the transmission mount in conjunction with the torque arm mount contributes to wheel hop. All the guys with 5-speeds will know about the horrible bouncing shifter. This is one of my biggest pet peaves. The stock transmission mount is so flimsy that it stretches up to 2 inches on launches or hard shifts. This stretch causes pinion angle change because the torque arm is attached to the back of the transmission, and under acceleration the torque arm is pulling upwards on the mount which in turn stretches the trans mount and the rear end rotates. All is not lost, Energey Suspension makes a fabulous urethane transmission mount and a urethane torque arm bushing that eliminates this problem.
Holy Crap this post is long. Anyway I could go on about wheel hop for a while, but if I write much more here people will think I have no life.
Maybe I should start working on a set of technical articles on various suspension problems and stuff. Anybody interested?
------------------
Karl Hunter
Hunter Motorsports
Vancouver, B.C. CANADA
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11-26-2000, 12:32 AM
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karl,
i enjoyed your post very much. im building a 3rd gen-based pro-touring car from scratch. im going to use belltech 2" drop spindles in the front. since the wheel is raised without the A-arm raising, i'll be needing a TALLER bump stop, if anything. when it all comes together we'll see how it fits it would be great if you'd stick make that into a tech article.
thanks again,
-dustin
i enjoyed your post very much. im building a 3rd gen-based pro-touring car from scratch. im going to use belltech 2" drop spindles in the front. since the wheel is raised without the A-arm raising, i'll be needing a TALLER bump stop, if anything. when it all comes together we'll see how it fits
it would be great if you'd stick make that into a tech article.thanks again,
-dustin
11-26-2000, 01:48 AM
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Car: Camaro Z28 1LE R7U
Engine: 5.0 TPI
Transmission: G-Force Dog-Ring T5
Actually, the stock bumpstops will be fine in your case as long as they are in good shape. If in doubt, order a new set of bumpstops from G.M. for a 92 1-LE car. Get both the front and the rear. The 92 rear bumpstops for Z-28 cars are actually the best ones because they are made of a soft foam-rubber compound instead of hard rubber. This provides less of a shock when the rear suspension comes in contact with the bumpstops.
I guess it's time to work on some more tech articles
------------------
Karl Hunter
Hunter Motorsports
Vancouver, B.C. CANADA
I guess it's time to work on some more tech articles
------------------
Karl Hunter
Hunter Motorsports
Vancouver, B.C. CANADA
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