mrogers

iTrader: (1)

Alright, I bought this car three years ago and it had very tight steering and took a normal amount of force to turn the wheel and it snapped back to center good I think. I then went about puting a new engine in and rebuilding the front end entirely. The worn parts I replaced.

Poly control arm bushings
Poly sway bar bushings
Tie rods (were rusted terribly, but relatively tight still)
Ball joints
Struts
Rotors and pads
Rubber steering coupler (was just starting to wear)
The 5 spoke alloys with 215 65 15's.

I also cut a little out of the springs, but It's not very low. Average I'd say.

After this, I had an alignment which looks like factory specs I think. I still have the sheet. About 0 camber now, 4.5 caster, a hair of toe in. Everything was in spec. The problem was then that it was stiff and wouldn't return to center, and now had slop in it. The box is definitely where the clop is coming from, it's very obvious just looking at it and turning the input shaft. The steering shaft isn't binding either.

So, I just lived with it until last fall when I changed out the box to a rebuilt IROC one. That changed nothing! So then last week I went to adjust it. It took several complete easy turns just to bottom out the top adjuster screw. I then drove it and backed it out to about 3/4 turns, which is a good spot, but that was also as far as I could get it to back out! I still can't figure that one out. I still had slop. I put a little more preload on the input bearing, which actually did get rid of some of the slop, but it was starting to get harder to turn so I stopped. And, it still will not recenter, and it's a bear to keep going straight.

Now, the stiffness could be caused by the power steering pump, because it's not from a Camaro, an S-10 actually. I would have put my spare on, but I couldn't get the v belt pulley off of it, but I'll try that again soon.

So, my main questions are:

Why does it not return to center at all?

Why can't I get the slop out without making it harder to turn, even with this rebuilt box?

Why is it hard to turn?


I thank everyone in advance.

-Mike

AM91Camaro_RS

those alignment settings don't sound right to me. I don't know for sure what they should be but you want some camber in it, probably something up to 1* and 4.5* caster sounds like a lot. Those settings could effect the re-centering of the wheel. shouldn't have anything to do with power steering pump.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Could that piece be interfering (I know that rag joint eliminators have some issues from time to time)?

JamesC

Guest

Higher caster angles will help a steering wheel recenter. Caster gives high speed stabilty.

SOunds to me like the box is so worn it has been adjusted down tight in an attempt to reduce slop but is now wrenched to where it limits steering freedom. I have seen this happen and the steering will not recenter no matter how much caster is induced.

AM91Camaro_RS

oops, I didn't think the caster thing through too well before I posted. sorry.

mrogers

iTrader: (1)

Well, first of all, I used the standard rubber replacement steering coupler, and none of that is touching anything.

And yeah, the caster is good enough where it is I think. I could use a little more camber, but that shouldn't effect the return to center much I don't think.

I've had 2 boxes that acted the exact same way, and I was assuming that there could be something outside the steering box that could be the problem, but I honestly don't see how.


I may just pull the box and tear it apart sometime. It just kills me that these steering issues keeps this from being the best car I've ever owned.

Thanks everyone. Any other ideas? Keep them coming.

bcmag

jack up front of vehicle remove both outer trods from spindles,grab each frot tire and swing it thru entire steering arc.does either side feel like its binding?

mrogers

iTrader: (1)

I'll have to try that later this week and let you know how that goes.

Thanks

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

i've got similar problems going on, i also replaced bushings, struts, strut mounts, ball joints, my rag joint wasnt worn, but the box side of the coupler was cracked this produced most of my slop, but there is some in the box along with an audible pop, or clunk sound that seems to be in the box itself.

power assistance is weak across the board, regardless of engine rpm... the box and pump are the only original steering parts left in it, and i intend to replace them. i was also told to check freedom of the spindles independantly. i plan to do this first but dont expect to find any issues. i firmly believe something is going on in the power side of the box like a stuck valve or other internal leak, i noticed it had puked some fluid out the input side of the box the other day when we did the rag joint but it appears to have stopped leaking, the system is full of fluid

mrogers

iTrader: (1)

Okay. I had time today so I jacked up the front end and turned the wheels from lock to lock and couldn't find any binding. I then started messing with the box adjuster on the top and found that even when it was fully seated that there was still slop, but it was stiff. If I loosen it several turns, it became easy to steer, like it should be, but there was penty of slop, but it returned to center quite a bit better, but not great.

So, my next step is going to be taking it to a different alignment shop and see if the caster is off, because I now remember the first shop telling me that the caster wasn't adjustable, so maybe what is on the printout is bogus.

One question though. I noticed the rubber in my strut mounts moving slightly when I was turning the wheel to the locks. So, I was wondering, how I can tell if they are worn out? And could they contribute the problem even though they seem to be working smoothly?



As for the guy who posted above me; If you hear popping, have someone listen under the hood while your turning and make sure the pop is coming from the box, but the box is probably part of the problem since it's making noise.

Thanks

Jr. Mechanic

iTrader: (3)

You most likely killed the new box. You're only supposed to adjust them 1/4 turn at a time, and NEVER fully seat the adjusting screw. This will causing binding in the box and it will wear out very quickly.

Take the box in for warranty exchange and try another.

laiky

Rebuilt Steering Boxes are like rebuilt transmissions, you never really know what your going to get. No one (parts store boxes) is going to replace the internals with NEW just "within spec" that could mean a lot of play and slop exists but the box doesn't leak so it is good. It's also unlikely that you got a box with the exact specs of your OEM one. You would need to go to a place like Lee Manufacturing to be sure you got a quality, correct, rebuild. Their steering boxes have been on my wish list for years.

rough

Id like to see if any of the guys have solved their problem, ive been living with this and traveled twice from indiana to cali and back.. Could we have not tightened tie rods or something right? Maybe over tightened center link? I did notice my steering box leaking today after trying to adjust it for the millionth time, it wont pull to center, at all, and the slop just makes it worst, its like trying to get sideways any time you have to correct semi quickly.

I did notice while attaching the center link to the pitman arm there is only like a foam bushing between the two, so it looks like there is a little play there, but still should not cause the steering to not wana return to center. Fluid is good on level..


So stumped still, and have to drive 100mi daily to work so wana drive the camaro, but the steering is so ungodful, almost half tempted to take it in

AM91Camaro_RS

rough, have you had an alignment done? Not returning to center could be a caster issue, or something of that nature.

rough

i did not to long ago, im sure the tires have something to do with it, but not its total fault, when i have the rear on ramps and the front on stands it has plenty of caster, then when i lower it, you can see it push the tires out nicely

When i jiggle the tire/wheel back and fowarth toward the block and back, there is just a slight wobble, so ill tighten up the bearing caps on the rotor, but when im move the wheel i can see the steering shaft move, but the pitman arm wont, till i give it more but by that time 1/4 turn and the pitman arm will move compared to the steering shaft, so im assuming the box is in bad shape, its leaking now when i turn the wheel without the car being on. Its been this way ever since i replaced the front end

Guest

Rough, Generally when a box is leaking the box is just flat out gone bad. Nothing you can do at this point other than a new box. Every time I hear of someone trying to rebuild their existing box they just do not turn out well. I would recomend buying a new professionally built unit. It makes a world of difference and will last you for years trouble free. Everthing just always depends on how long you plan to keep the vehicle.

My opinion? Stay away from AGR boxes from summit or anywhere else, they are crap in my experience. I stick with Lee boxes now as do most of the entire racing world. They have a jig arm they built custom to set the steeing pressure. Kindof like a large torque wrench. They test every box and can set them to very percise.

Make sure you do not talk to Tom Lee though, ask for his wife Gale or just call back unttil you finally reach her to place the order. He is unfortunately getting very forgetfull and in my personal experience with him recently- he should not be answering the phones there at Lee Manufacturing anymore.

rough

Do you have lee's contact info? i see some on ebay for around 250

Guest

http://lee-powersteering.com/steering-gears.htm

A new box is usually around $400 for a 12:1 ratio

Ebay I would guess is a "you get what you pay for"

You can see the box we use on our NASCAR supertruck is from Lee and is the identical units used in our 3rd gens. We use alot of spec S10 parts which are interchangeable with 3rd gens. I am unfortunately sawing away at some damage from a wreck my driver got tangled in.

86CamaroNJ

caster is adjustable, you just need the camber/caster tool for the 3rd gens. It hooks into the top of the strut tower and into the hood supports. Make sure to loosen the 3 retaining nuts after hook it up (but leave them able to be tightened down quickly as it is easy to overshoot the adjustments). You first get the caster within spec (for difficult ones i recommend using a dead blow hammer to shift the tower around) and then adjust it to acceptable camber.

ASE doc

I have an AGR 12:1 box and Im very happy with it. The valving is a perfect balance for normal and performance driving. Maybe I got lucky. I would warn against any budget priced reman box. A-1 Cardone is junk.

One unfortunate thing about the internet is that alot of backyard rebuilders can now market their products to the world for cheap. Beware of unknown suppliers, ask around for others' experience/impressions.

michta

most of the time when you hear a popping noise it is the frame cracked under the steering box where it is mounted.

rough

Found this old thread I had posted on, figured I would give some more input on what I have done, since it has been a few years. I replaced the steering box, made no difference, replaced evey bushing up front, nothing, replaced the wheel bearings and checked for any play, everything is good to go.

Still been throwing time, money, and sweat at this issue, only thing left that I could replace would be the steering pump and the rag joint, but when i move the wheel, everything moves smooth and on time up till the pitman arm.

Almost like the box is the issue again, so fustrating spending all this money, and still not figuring out the problem, and being a tech, it only makes fustration worst when I can't figure out the problem!

About tempted to sell a body part and have a rack and pinion system put in lol.
If you have had this problem and fixed it, message me!! Thanks

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

The gearbox is simple and easy to rebuild. Cheeeeep too. Not sure why anybody with knowledge and experience would be incapable of accomplishing that. The way they're made, it's almost impossible to wear them out in such a way that they can't be restored. DAMAGE, like in a wreck or by improper service, maybe; normal wear, no.

I always keep a "kit" in stock, and have rebuilt several of mine in various cars; with PERFECT results every time (except one that had got water in it from sitting around with the hood off, and the lower Pitman shaft bearing surface is rough), no leaks, no play, generally like-new performance.

Try it, you might be surprised. They're REALLY REALLY simple.

Did I mention, they're SIMPLE? In case not, I will: they're SIMPLE. So simple, I can do it. And if an idiot like ME can do it, surely somebody smart enough to type on the Internet can manage it.

rough

sofakingdom which kit do you use?

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

i changed ball joints out again, i had used a store brand and after 7500miles they were trashed, replaced with MOOG and she steers smooth as silk now

rough

I was thinking of redoing the ball joints, as I got some crappy Mevotech brand which is trash! Did it use to wonder all over the road?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I usually get em at NAPA just because they're the easiest, but lots of the other stores can get em too. No idea whether you can look em up at their web site.

I can't imagine new ball joints NOT being tight, but I suppose it could happen... never heard of that brand either. I usually get Moog or Dana or some similar well-known American brand, even though the parts aren't necessarily made in the US (in fact usually aren't, these days); but at least there's somebody somewhere a little closer to me looking at them before I get them, who is motivated by knowing that they could endanger themselves by letting total crap be put in their boxes and end up on the other cars that share the road with them.

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

oh yeah like a drunk on a bike, hit a little bump she would pull right, next bump it would pull left... wandery and twitchy feeling didnt self center correctly.

come to think of it i think mevotech is what i used the first time around and yeah after 7500miles when i pulled them they were FLOPPY loose then i turn them a bit as if to steer the car and they would crunch and bind then pop free etc... i was shocked at how terrible they felt.

i grabbed a set of MOOG problem solvers from rockauto for like $23 each best $50 and couple hours i have spent in a while

Trevmust

I can wiggle my steering wheel about 1/2-1" before the wheels start to turn. this is with the car off and e-brake on... how bad is that? It steers fine while driving and takes minimal effort to keep going straight, but I do notice it likes to drift when my attention drifts away from correcting the steering. (I stop moving my hands to keep it going straight but I'm still paying attention to the road and all that)