GTA1990

iTrader: (1)

...a rather pedestrian country road and the back end is very loose/ twitchy. And this is with smooth throttle action or in some cases coasting - at reasonable speeds that my previous 330ci sport BMW or my fathers C220 (CDI) estate would breeze around.

As you can tell I'm quite surprised/ dissappointed following a recent unintended venture off road. Car is a 1990 GTA with the WS6 suspension. Certainly a fan of the car but handling wise it just doesn't inspire, especially considering the posts here about it nearing (with minor tweeks bettering) exotics of the day and today!

All bushes seem in good order (no play) though are just plain jane rubber bushes aside from the panhard bar which has poly bushing and the car has welded subframe connectors. Tyres are also healthy tread cooper affairs.

My query is what can be done to improve the back end compliance/ grip on these cars? I was considering LCA's and relocation brackets, lowering the car on eibachs, perhaps upgrading the roll bar bushes and inspecting shocks/ struts.

Is there something I can do which will be noticed?

Thoughts most welcome

92droptopws6

iTrader: (10)

Tires are #1 concern COOPERS are not a real good cornering tire! Not tryin to bash here...In my experience with 3rd gens since the mid 80s they do not require very much especially the Trans Ams and the Irocs.
They do handle much better with Michelins,BFGs,Dunlop type tires. a small drop to help the center of gravity roughly 1-1.5" drop MAX....Energy suspension bushings,wonder bar,Strut tower brace,Lcas will help only in the tubular models,17" wheels and a set of KONI shocks and struts and you will have a killer handling ride... 3rd gens are absolutely the best cornering f-bodies ever built!

Personally to get the best experience of a 3rd gen is to have a manual tranny in there for "SPIRITED DRIVING" the twisties will never feel the same.. Honestly, cannot wait to find another clean 91,92 Z28vert to go canyon carving with!

Guest

I dont know how old these two German cars were you're comparing to, but keep in mind your GTA is now 20 years old. Those rubber bushings may LOOK ok, but they are likely about done by now. I would at least replace the bushings in the car and put on some different tires. There could be any number of things going on from loose parts to old worn out parts to poor tires. I have never run the Cooper tires but if they're the ones I think they are, probably not very good for handling purposes. Getting more difficult by the day to find anything good anymore in the stock size (I'd imagine in the UK its even worse) but tires make a huge difference in handling and feel.

I would forget about the LCA brackets and the Eibach springs. Get some good shocks on the car (think Koni or Bilstein), the best tires you can find for it, and go from there. Its going to take some decent and carefully chosen mods to make it handle as well as a 330ci, but start with getting the car back to where it was new first. If you decide to do springs, find something else other than Eibach. You can do just as well as a box of grey powdercoat Eibachs by cutting a bit off your stock WS6 springs and save a lot of money in the process.

Visiting tirerack.com and maybe this link will work

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSe...r=16&x=92&y=13

On that list, I'd try the Goodyear GS-D3 (I personally hate Goodyear but have heard good things about these particular size and model), the Yokohama ES100 (I have a similar size on another vehicle and I'm very happy with them). The BFGoodrich g-Force sport you're on your own, have heard some good some bad. I would not try it myself. I'd stay away from any of the rest there.

Just to add some more information, I've had either an 85 or 86 TA (both almost identical) since 1988 with various tires over the years. Right now my 86 has 2 different tires, both Bridgestones though. I have a set of RE750's on the back and those are by far the absolute WORST handling tires I have ever had. I've had from expensive to cheap and everywhere inbetween and these particular tires suck horribly. The rear of the car is likely similar to yours, its a bit unstable. I've swapped the rims+tires out with another car and with a set of drag radials (MT ET Streets) of all things with them and it handles better with anything but those tires on the back. Grip is good, feel is beyond awful... especially from what I am used to with these cars.

1988-305-tbi

thoose are crappy tires and withought new shocks the tires aren't staying planted to the ground, get some konis or bilsteins and new front strut mounts, what size wheel and tire are you running?

89ROC-Z

iTrader: (7)

In addition to what the other guys said, i would add poly bushings and end links to your sway bars. They're dirt cheap and really help with body roll

1988-305-tbi

i was just looking at your post again, you said the rear feels twitchy, do you mean like it feels like it's loosely connected to the car, or just loose contact with the ground?

Chicago89RS

Better tires will make a huge difference.

My brother is running BFGoodrich g-sport tires(245/50/16) on stock IROC wheels(16x8) and feels they have good dry grip, as well as wet grip.

I'm running Nitto NT555's(245/45/17) on 17x8 wheels and the dry grip is amazing, as far as wet grip i haven't really tested it. The only problem with the NT555's is they do kick up rocks and things on the road but i'd say its worth it for the grip.

After tires i'd go with a wonder bar(steering brace) and subframe connectors. Hope this helps.

WIll36

iTrader: (12)

I would do a combination of what everybody has said. Start with shocks, struts and springs. Then bushings. Also a set of 17s with the new NT05 from Nitto would help. The NT05 is a much better performing tire but does wear faster.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

How bumpy is the road in question? As good as these cars handle, live axles don't like bumps and jolts. As soon as I saw that you're running Cooper tires I was thinking the same thing as everyone else in this thread. Coopers in general are almost as bad as Goodyears in my book. Get yourself some nice sticky tires and it makes a world of difference. My personal preference are BFGoodrich tires, they're not ultra-expensive, but they wear OK and stick like glue. My next choice is Firestone, but generally they're more expensive.

Good (not worn out) shocks, a solid aftermarket track bar, and lower control arms make a world of difference too.

ls six

And last but not least remember this is a semi-classic american car! American cars have never been great at feed back.

They can certainly do the numbers and the controls can even be direct and quick but if you really love the way a bimmer feels then any older american car will fall short.

RED_DRAGON_85

just to add whats already been said:
BFG tires are great for getting good handling
the G-Force Sport tires are great IMO... make sure you know the difference between the Super Sports and the Sports. the super sports are all season tires. get the G-Force Sport.

once you have good tires, get the best shocks you can afford.
next, replace your bushings all around and you should be set.


one thing that was mentioned earlier was the rear suspension.
it is a live axle, and will never do well with bumps and potholes.
my cornering confidence is pretty high with the car, but put a few bumps in the road and i have to slow down a LOT.
i generally take 30 mph ramps at 50-55, but with an uneven road, 40 is about as fast as i feel comfortable

GTA1990

iTrader: (1)

Firstly thanks for all the responses by quantity - appreciate it

Tyres seem to be featuring alot here and I've enquired about replacing them. As mentioned above selection is limited in the UK - I think it's mainly Kumho, Nexen and Coopers. Inclined to try kumho's - seem to get solid reviews. PS. Tyres are 245/50/16 (i.e. standard sizes)

To expand a little - the backend would twitch little (move laterally left to right - a snaking like effect but without throttle) - some of it may be accounted for by me reacting to the twitch - I guess when it happens you don't know whether the car is loosing traction or there is give in the suspension components - it really is ever so slight but completely confidence stripping. This mostly occurs on windy country roads, yes with changes in gradient across the axle which I appreciate live axle cars can get upset by.

A little more on the car - it does have useable monroe shocks/ struts (previous owner), standard WS6 springs up front and MOOG cargo coils in the rear (my doing, originals were sagging). Bushes have been tested by the old crowbar method and there is hardly any play - but I appreciate even small movements can be amplified with the weight of the car on them.

Again appreciate the input - I'll start poking around for shocks/ struts and poly-bushing kits.

But, and I respectfully ask as I do see objectivity on these boards which is refreshing, - will investing in the above really improve things noticeably?Or will these modifications just give the car more of an edge and in essence the characteristics mentioned are just limitations of the car?

Cheers guys

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Panhard bar: I know you mentioned that it has poly bushings in it. However, if it is still the stock one it needs to be reinforced. Easy to do with the stock piece. remove the bushings and set them aside (will be reused since they are already poly).

Get a piece of square tube stock (I think it was about 1"). It will be placed into the U channel opening and skip welded. Then welded at the ends to the bushing tubes. Note that the square tube will drop into the channel rotated, in a diamond fashion.

If you look at the bar installed, it will be round on top (stock piece). Then pointed on the bottom, a corner of the square tube.

Cut/grind the ends to match the bushing end tubes. Then place into the channel and skip weld along the length. Weld the ends to the bushing tubes. Let cool, wire brush, paint, then re-install the poly bushings.

I did this mod many years ago and it made a big difference in how the rear felt in cornering. This was one change that there was no mistaking a decent level of increase in cornering stability.

Also note to check the panhard brackets on the car. Sometimes the bolts will be just loose enough that the holes wallow out. Then they shift during cornering.

RBob.

RED_DRAGON_85

i can say with 100% certainty: good tires make a world of difference
tires are your biggest factor in changing the handling of the car.
get good ones.
i dont know why you couldnt buy tires on www.tirerack.com and have them shipped if you cant find them locally. it wouldnt be too much more i dont think, but what do i know.

if the car feels loose in the back, one thing you could do is try changing the rear sway bar.
a smaller diameter bar will make the car more understeer oriented, but if you have a bar that is too big in back, the car will want to oversteer... its about finding a balance.

since you mention that it feels like a "snaking" effect, try this experiment.
get the car on flat level ground
crawl under the back and look at the panhard bar
is it level?
if its not level, then you might have some jacking going on when you turn hard.
www.jegs.com sells a panhard bar adjustment thing
basically you either bolt it or weld it on to the axle mount (i dont remember which atm)
this allows you to level the panhard bar at ride height
it also allows you to adjust the rear roll center.
rear roll center is located by the center of the panhard bar where it crosses the axle centerline... this height is the roll center.

stiffening the panhard bar is also not a bad idea, but if it were me, id just get a tubular adjustable one.
much better in the long run because you have the ability to center the rear end if you change the ride height.


also, the cargo coil springs might not be ideal. i would either stick with stock springs all around, or start looking into lowering springs.


if you do tires, shocks and PHB, you WILL FEEL A DIFFERENCE.
weather it will improve things, only you can say.
its possible that you need a smaller rear ARB or a bigger front one.
again, its trial and error for the most part.

1988-305-tbi

I think the snake like movement is the side to side movment/ jacking effect of the panhard, my car handled like absolute crap before i got the panhard level, my quick fix was shimming the stprings to get the panhard level, then the rear felt like is was attached to the car not just trailing it like it was held on with rubber bands, get that fixed then shocks and tires ,and you will have a good starting point

92droptopws6

iTrader: (10)

Give this a look! Back when i was in HS i used to read about Camaros and suspension tech. The name Herb Adams comes to mind so if you read up on this topic it will give you more insight on what these cars need and like
http://www.nastyz28.com/pthandle.html

GTA1990

iTrader: (1)

This makes for an interesting read

I'm rather miffed that essentially, as the rear axle moves vertically (y-axis looking dead straight at the back of the car), by virtue of the panhard arrangement, it also moves along the x-axis - surely this can't be ideal for alignment? - please do correct if I'm wrong

Thanks guys - I'm beginning to think the moog springs may have set the panhard bar slightly off being perfectly horizontal at rest (very cold, but I'll check how it sits asap). Also the original bar may be allowing too much flex - cheers for the welding tips RBOB - I'm a complete novice so may just opt for a tubular one. Lastly, another possibility may be the progressive rear springs with original linear fronts may have upset the cars balance when cornering.

Okay, tyres are being fitted this weekend. I'll invest in a sturdier panhard bar and investigate the panhard angle. Some choice polybushes will follow

92dropws6 - that's a cool link. Whilst I see it references a 2nd gen some good universal handling info toward the bottom of the page

Will report back

ls six

A watts linkage would have been technicaly better but given the production costs GM opted for a simpler solution, relatively few production cars ever came with the watts though so it's not like they were behind the curve in that regard (unless you considder a stick axle being behind the curve) you just have to keep it setup to work properly.

If you want to see or drive a factory watts link car checkout a 1st gen Mazda RX7, I dont know how common they are over there but if you get a chance they are a great experience. In a time when every jap and euro car in it's class was independantly sprung the 7 used a stick out back and simple struts up front and was still a fantastic car!

92droptopws6

iTrader: (10)

here is another that involves the 3rd gen more
http://www.camarotech.com/suspension.html

RED_DRAGON_85

the X movement you speak of is so small it barely exists.
this is one of the main reasons why your panhard bar should be level.
the length of the bar is so long compared to the change in height of the end that the lateral movement can essentially be ignored.

i cant be bothered to take a measurement on my car right now because of the weather, but if someone wants to measure the panhard bar length, i will produce numbers to support my claim

i would need panhard bar length and the remaining distance the axle can compress, essentially how far from the top of the axle is the bump stop



personally, i would buy an adjustable phb before i welded mine up.
the benefit of welding a stock bar is increased stiffness, but you still have to deal with the stock length, which is not adjustable, the difficulty of putting new bushings in and keeping them greased so they dont squeak, and any possible warpage that it has developed over the 20 years its been doing its job.

on the other hand, if you get an aftermarket, single adjustable one, you know for a fact its straigt as an arrow, its going to take any load you put on it without flexing, its designed to be greasable, its new and shiny... ect.
what would i get?
either this:
http://www.umiperformance.com/catalo...roducts_id=309

or this:
http://www.umiperformance.com/catalo...roducts_id=110

if you want to check out other companies, thats cool, they are all basically the same (gasp)
i like UMI, but you may find a better price elsewhere.
HotPart has some good stuff IIRC, so check there as well.

the key (IMO) is to get a single adjustable one, ie, one with only one point of adjustment. this way you dont have to worry about the thing adjusting itself when one of the jamb nuts comes loose. i guess im just paranoid, but i like the idea of being 110% certain that it wouldnt go anywhere
the downside is that you have to remove one of the bolts to adjust it, but honestly, you will only have to go thru this once... unless you change your ride height every week.

Guest

The main reason for panhard level in not lateral movement though travel, It is so long that this is a mute point.
The main reason is for lateral jacking and squating the chassis.

You want the bar lateral so as not to have chassis weeight applied laterally to lift or lower the ber angle when set in lateral force.

Lateral weight applied to it will make it pul to paralell, if it starts in the down position, it will jack the chassis up in a corner, and visa versa.


Going to a watts linkage changes chassis charateristics. The rear suspension lateral pivot point (Aka, your rear roll center) will no longer migrate towards the outside wheel off center when laterally loaded. TTHis RC not migrating reduces inside chassis weight levearage on body roll. You will need a different rear setup (springs, shock valving, swaybars) with a watts link because the roll axis no longer yaws front to rear.....I know, I lost alot of you- everyones like..WTF?

I am very partial towards rear progrssive springs and higher compression valving on the rear shocks when it comes to a fixed axle car with panhard.
Just up the front liniear rates on the springs so the car does not nose dive and tie the rear down more with higher rebound on the rear. The car will stick like glue going into any corner. If it is not balanced, up the rear swaybar till it does. If it still does not, then go more on the front spring rates and try again.It takes alot of trial and error to get springrates correct.

Dean

ps- when I first bought my Camaro almost 20 years ago(I weas second owner, car was about 4 years old- a 1987 RS) it pushed and plowed so hard into any corner and it dribbled the back wheels over every hard bump. If this happened in a corner it dribbled accross the roads like a basketball being dribbled by Curley on the globe Trottters 1" off the ground.

My car after built, would never in this lifetime dribble over any road imperfection. My rear stuck like glue over anything. It can be done, you just have to know how chassis dynamics work and what causes things to what. Eerything in your suspension has spring rate and deflection. THEY ALL ADD UP. Shocks, bushings, chassis flex, componant flex, tire sidewall spring rate- they all matter. Thats why two cars that look alike will not drive alike.

RED_DRAGON_85

if its oversteering, why up the rear bar?
just wondering if you made a mistake there

i realize that upping the rear rebound will make the car better in turns, but to do that you need top of the line shocks.
most shocks are non-adjustable
good shocks are single adjustable and adjust rebound and compression with one ****
race shocks and some expensive street shocks allow separate rebound and compression adjustment

also, upping the front rate will help, but without shorter springs and weight jacks, it will change the ride height.

the reason i am saying this is that although your suggestions are GREAT, (i mean it, they are) they dont apply to someone with a stock suspension.
in order to do what you said, he will have to spend 2000 in parts up front, and it still might not work correctly

IMO, the best solution is to try and get stock replacement springs back on the car and check the PHB
we all know that in completely stock condition, with good tires, the car will understeer.


on a side note, say you have a situation where the car is twitchy on center, but understeers in corners... what does that mean? up the front compression damping?

Guest

Hi Red, You need to quote my entire sentance. I said up the front linear spring rate, leave the rear progressive springs, tie the rear down with more rebound, and tune it with a bigger bar to balanace to rear to the front higher spring rates.

Yes he will need to buy parts, he ain;t gonna drive fast with the stock setup. These cars suck when stock.


Now to your Question? Twitchy through corners, and pushes in AND out? The car needs shocks first to control the chassis. Always adjust center corner steady state first. If the car is moving about at steady state? then the chassis is not being controlled. Shocks

edit: additional info- Look at the other poost up top I just made on the rear end dribbling. I would have to imagine this is his issue. Its a combined problenm of the addition of all componants addding up to spring rate and deflection. I would say he rear is not oose becuase of high rates, his rear is loose because it is walking out dribbling over bumps

RED_DRAGON_85

ok, i was under the impression that you meant that the rear bar was separate from the shocks and springs... sorry about that.

my side question was not about a camaro, but just a general question about cars that are twitchy on center, but when you really get into the corner you can feel (and hear) understeer

GTA1990

iTrader: (1)

This is pretty cool - really starting to understand this and other variables which I hadn't even entertained before

I see what you guys mean (Red, Vetruck) about the panhard motion having a trivial impact on alignment due to the length of the bar.

Vetruck - interesting point with the jacking/ squatting effect. Forgive my ignorance -but for us laymen:

Taking a typical scenario of a lowered car where the panhard bar is lowest at where it is bolted to the chassis - i.e. from teh back to the car it is lowest on the right side - a negative gradient by my crude superimposed axis noted above

A high speed left turn -exerting force on the axle left to right - will cause the vehicle to squat. Vice versa a jacking effect from a high speed right turn

What intrigues is that an adjustable panhard bar is possibly not the ideal solution for the above effect (not that any of you have suggested it is - just often is raised as combating unwanted by-products of lowering a 3rdgen). An adjustable panhard bar will re-allign your axle, but the mounting points remain horizontally miss-alligned and thus does your panhard bar. Wouldn't re-locating panhard mounts (eg for a lowered car, taller mounts on the axle) be the optimum solution?

As you nodoubt woud have guessed, this is teetering on my limit of comprehension of such things and certainly passed the requirements of an amateur street driver!

I'll start looking into a tubular panhard bar, shocks/ struts and a thorough investigation of the bushes following new tyres.

RED_DRAGON_85

yes!!!
there is a part that does just this...
i mentioned it earlier, you can get it from www.jegs.com
dean will be able to tell you what it is exactly and probably will have a link.

essentially, you want the panhard bar to be as LONG as possible and as LEVEL as possible at static ride height. theoretically you would do this at 1/2 tank of gas.
the longer the panhard bar, the less lateral movement (X direction) you have for a given vertical movement (Z direction)

personally, i would change your order of buying things to this:
1) tires
2) shocks/struts (BEST YOU CAN AFFORD)
3) bushings
4) panhard bar

edit:
3.5) springs

GTA1990

iTrader: (1)

Apologies RD85 - Information overload - completely overlooked that section of your post above - on jegs.com researching now>>

Priority list noted - sounds a logical order to do things

Appreciate the diagnosis guys

Guest

Nope, you have that opposite. With the chassis side lower on the right, you take a "left turn the chassis weight will motion right" and the lower chassis mount sie of the panhard will raise towards centifical level to the ground trying to lift the chassis as the chassis weight pulls it in arch.

To the right turn, the chassis will squat much easier than the chassis will jack to the left palin and simply becasue of chassis gracity weight and centrifical weight acting more in sequence than the other way where the chassis fights gravity trying to lift.

These characteristics change how a car rolls left as opposed to right turns.

That Jegs unit is a nice piece, I had it on my Camaro. You only need the axle adjuster, do not buy a chassis side adjuster.

Dean

firebird1992

I have a v6 drop 1'
245/50r16 tires cobra's
put a B&M stage 1 kit
KYB adjustable shocks and Strut
replaces every rubber bushing with ploys
3in sway bar

and on a dry day i can keep up with my friends evo 10 in "S" turn downshift from OD to 3rd or if it a really hard turn 2nd it's like the cars on rails.
the back end almost never sides out unless there's water or something on the ground.

love my FIREBIRD

RED_DRAGON_85

do you have a link to it?
ive been searching threads and jegs website for 3 days looking for it... cant find it.
i need to organize my threads better but i literally just realized that you can put threads in different folders lol.

1988-305-tbi

http://www.jegs.com/i/Jegster/550/41055/10002/-1

GTA1990

iTrader: (1)

Just a note I put new Kumho 245/50/16 tyres on today and it certainly does feel more stable. Hangs on as well for all but really violent launches so I think that's great if only from a safety perspective.

TBH haven't quite got the full confidence back to chuck into corners and see if my snaking issued is resolved but I'll edge more and more over the coming days and then re-assess with teh abovementioned recommendations in mind (in a controlled environment of course )

I think the steering is really starting to stick out as needing attention next but I'll start another post about that

Cheers guys

Norwood

iTrader: (1)

Just out of curiosity has your car been converted to right hand drive? If so was this done from the factory? I've always wondered how they get the steering input from the right side when the box is on the left. Could this have an effect in a performance situation?

GTA1990

iTrader: (1)

Hi there

No the car is still left hand drive - not mandatory for vehicles to be RHD on her Majesty's island. Unusual that it is so in Australia

Cannot comment on the performance implications of having a RHD conversion - ignorance leads me to say yes it will effect performance but I'm sure a truely skilled engineer could modify (possibly even introduce a rack & opinion setup) to better GM's LHD setup

Maybe worth starting a new thread to get some more exposure to your query

Guest

I don't know guys, All I can say is I know what the hell a Yugo would do in 5 seconds, or a Ferrari. Whats this confidence building thing. But then again I can outdrive most Vette owners in a ford Tarrus rental car.

Its in the blood. Of you don't have it, you're never gonna learn it.
I'm not trying to be mean with anything or arrogant, I just do not understand talk like this

I think most of you would sh*t if you got into a car with me driving.

VAN454

My car is RHD, it is a full mirror conversion, it uses a holden steering box mounted on the right hand side. If done right the car is pretty much the same as if it was lhd

Norwood

iTrader: (1)

Some people don't have to try to be mean or arrogant. It just happens naturally. What's so hard to understand? You don't even want to try. Nobody comes here to be made fun of or looked down on. Is this just the California mentality? This is the kind of behavior that gives Americans a bad reputation.
I wouldn't blame GTA if he never showed his face again but I hope he does. My earlier post was deleted because I was not as nice as I am now. My apologies for that, and hope GTA might be offered one as well.

Guest

Norwood, Can a person improve their own car's setup if the car outperforms their ability?

So why asks the questions about tech unless you know you can drive better than the car performs. I personally can state a fact that I can outdrive any car I have ever driven. I am better than the vehcile, thus I know the vehicle is the one lacking and I can bring it up to its best potential.

It puzzles me when someone asks a handling problem then states they are building confidence in the car. I can do that in 1 lap around the block, or one lap on any track. I can then make the car do what I need it to do by using the brake pedal to set the chassis into rotation if needed the assistance to turn. I know this into the first corner and the next corner is done at the cars full potential. You should see me trick the traction Control and spin the wheels on a AMG63 Mercedes, Oh its a blast screwing with the factory reps and getting them to clinch their butt cheeks.

Sorry my confidence bothers you.

ls six

So because the OP isnt a professional level driver he shouldnt have an interest in improving his car? It's really quite simple, he drove the car to near it's current limit and got nervous. After making a "theoretical" improvement is it so hard to understand that he's reluctant to throw his pride and joy full tilt into the first corner he finds?

I have had my Mazda for close to 6 years now and had developed a lot of confidence in it, I tuned it for neutral to slight over steer (not the wisest thing in a FWD car) and have always been able to reign it in at the limit, it's fun showing people how stable and controlable a fwd car can be mid drift lol.

But the tires didnt cut it for winter so after stuffing it into snow banks one to many times I swapped on a set of used snow tires, taking a nice off camber down hill "corkscrew" twards a local junkyard I discovered the taller softer tires lateral G limitations rather abruptly.

I recovered with plenty of room between me and the F150 in the oncomming lane either because I'm that good or I set the car up well enough that it was an easy save, I'm now aware of the cars NEW limits in atleast one scenario but I'm perfectly content to drive conservatively until spring when I can get a brand new set of summer tires and start the learning proccess all over again.

You give great technical advice but you are a narcissist to the bone and any thing you might teach the lesser among us about driving is lost.

Norm Peterson

If you're going to bother with levelling the PHB, make sure that you level it with the car loaded the way you'll be driving it when you drive it that hard. That means with a weight about equal to your weight in the driver's seat and (roughly) half a tank of fuel.


I suspect that once a car has given a particular driver reason to feel nervous that it takes a little longer for him to re-learn that it isn't going to bite even after it's been "fixed".


On edit - eventually, I drive most any car fairly hard. Eventually does come somewhat later than the second turn, however.


Norm

Guest

If you can not control a car at a lower level of performance, then you have no business upping that level of performance and driving even more over your head and out of your experience range. If that makes me a narcissist partner then I accept that.

Learn skils first before you go jumping higher.

This is the typical motorcycle buyer that starts off his first bike a 1100cc ricerocket and kills himself rather than staying on a cruiser for a few years until he gains riding skills, then move to a more advanced setup.

Whn people are naive to a subject they tend to lack understanding of what is ment- this is a perfect case where I am misinterpeted and this is why I stated my statement with "I am not trying to be mean or arrogant", the OP needs to get some more experience undeer his belt before he starts developing a faster car.

Dean

RED_DRAGON_85

you just contradicted yourself here.
i dare you to jump on a race ready 1000cc superbike and hang with troy bayliss... not gonna happen.
those bikes are even above the best riders in the world. using one to even 1/2 of its full potential is a feat that not many people can do

all he is trying to do is fix an inherent problem with the car that is preventing him from using it to its potential.
no need to be a jerk about it.

sorry this got so off topic

Guest

Now to GTA (OP),

You first say you have a corner you know that you take in your "previous 330ci sport BMW or my fathers C220 (CDI) estate would breeze around." and you jump into this 3rd gen you now have and immediately have an offroad experience.

You explain pusating lateral twich in a corner yet you still drive it enough trough a corner to loose it since your overconfidence in the prior cars tells you thins one can do it also.....wrong. Even one of those cars on a given day could do that with a cut tire, a broken suspension componant, or an unexpected situation of road condition (grave on the road, you picked up a nail and suffered some tire PSI loss, you are oiling down your own tires accidently) any number of things. Some are a "sh*t happens, others are preventable or seat of the pants knowledge preventable with cautious driving tot he vehicles feel.

Yes, the car can be improved, but I also think you were used to driving what I call "sofa's on wheels" that are generally unmoplested cars with newer advance technology and improved wear charateristics all on comnservative factory alignment tolerances. They will keep the average driver feeling sporty yet not over their head - when you push a car like that to a slightly higher level of driving the car's nose will render the steering effort havy and the esense of plowing will alter the driver to back off and sustain the corner speed.

Now you jump into a older and quite possibly worn vehicle, quite possibly altered vehicle because of its age on the roads, somethin with tires of it sounds like inferior specs, well wht else is inferior? But partner, you hung it in there and went on a self admitted off road experience and then sit back and ask...What happened?

So I start with the plain ol fact everybody....Lack of experience. Don't think my answer is politically correct? too bad, its the truth.

Go take your car to some big parkinglot that is safe of light poles or other cars and is rural, go experiment with your car their and not on public hwy's with oncoming traffic. Learn driving charateristics with cars- multiple types of cars. Go to go-kart tracks, over drive them deep into corners, learn pedal skills, learn to addapt. Get out of one kart and into the next----Whoa, they looked the same, why do they not perform the same? No kart ever really does...yep The old, I did that in the last kart, but this one I kept spinnin gand hitting the wall' ...well, learn to adapt and feel the car soas not to hit the wall.

Its the part of the off road adventure I chose to commient on, not the Cooper tires, or the possible panhard bushings being worn.

Guest

Red, you misinterpet "confidence building" with skill building", they are not anywhere near the same meaning.

Why? You can have all the skills in the world but lack confidence. And on a flip note: you can be overconfident and lack skills.


Wanna see me rip off a wheelie on a bike bringing the nose up under power and setting it down 3 gears later at over 130? I do not have any old video of me on bikes other than a little easy fun jont on a 660 Raptor quad in a little dust bowl at Pismo last year. It was not my bike, I just jumped on it to show a firend what his bike will do.

I have the experience and skills to jump onto anything and run it pretty much to the edge right away.

Experience says alot, not just giving an inexperienced person a car that potentially could apex a corner at 100 so he can safely do 80- thats a flase sense of experience- over confidence when this person jumps into a lesser potential vehicle as this case shows.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaF4gHETvQ4

Norwood

iTrader: (1)

Vetruck, your response is EXACTLY what I expected. Absolutely nothing about my observations, you just picked up right where you left off. Why do you find it so necessary to step upon people on your way up your pedestal.
To answer your questions: yes, a person can improve a cars setup beyond their ability. That's why everybody is here, except you. Some folks are happy with new sway bar bushings. Others want a watts link and rack & pinion conversion to take back and forth to school.
Would it annoy you if I asked tech questions about aerodynamics, computer programming or home gardening? My abilities are very limited with all. Kind of like if you were to ask a question about social skills. I don't expect this exchange to really fix anything, it's not human nature to accept criticism publicly.
I think you have confidence confused with conceit. I have always admired a persons confidence, but it's always a QUIET confidence, usually accompanied with some equal part humility.

Guest

Norwood, I post facts. this is a tech board, people ask questions, I generate answers based on facts and experience.

I do not sugar coat answers to make best friends, I give helpful advice whether it be popular or not, it is the best ai feel for the given situation.

Now lets look at a little more of my resume. (You will think me bringing this up is narcissitic, I don't care, I know it is not- it makes a point to the subject of matter here) It have let it become known around here my ventures in NASCAR as a crewchief of a Supertruck team. In that position, it is my duty to help the team win. Not just the car, but the driver also. It there is something the driver is lacking it is not my position to keep my mouth shut and let a driver continue to do something on the track I see is harming to lap times.

Most people think its a fine line to tell someone how to drive, I do not. I research a drivers abilities with what I watch on the track as well as what I change in setup to see how he/she reacts to those changes. It is learning a driver which is the hardest and most critical part of what I do. Its not all about car settings, its driver and car. You would be amazed how many times already I have worked with a driver giving a setup- and then- working with him at the track for several days to only bring him right back to him liking tyhe initial setup I gave him once I trained him to feel the car better and change the habits he was used to in whatever else he was driving.

How many times a driver comes in and tells me the car feels better the way he wants it- so I set it that way- and then when he sees the laptimes that he "thought" he was doing better but was not.

SO I ask you Norwood, How do we know this kid was doing slower than his 330ci when he went offroad? How do we know I possibly could jump into both cars and find out "I could actually drive the GTA faster through that very corner than the 330ci? Or that you could driver the 220cid faster than both of us in our choices?

You think its wrong for me to strip this guy of a little confidence for his own safety? Yeps, thats thinking only about myself. I stand by my narcissism

Guest

I lack experience in typing skills... yes I can accept that, I work at it to try and improve myself and I accept anyone telling me I suck at typing and spelling......I do, its a fact.

VAN454

For someone who claims to know heaps, you make a lot of assumptions. How do you know he's a "kid"? If the road id rough then it is possible, even likely that one of the sftly sprung, IRS equiped euro-cars could take the corner quicker, and that the live rear end, stiffly sprung GTA skips around a bit. You really come off like a ********, this thread was about improving the inherant flaws in the handling of these cars, not an opportuniy for you to put people down and brag about your skills. aAs for the crap about needing to be a better driver to need a better handling car, anyone with the experiance you claim to have should know that that is just plain wrong. As you improve the handling of a car you raise it's upper limits. If the OP is finding the limits of his car, maybe he needs to raise it's limits before he can raise his own.

brutalform

Everyone that wants to argue, do it via e-mail or PM. If this thread does not get back on track, its locked.

Norwood

iTrader: (1)

BOOOOOOO