maverick22

But yes sfcs are on my Christmas list this year

TxTtopZ

Im not mean, think about it, it could have been a lot worse with a comment that says "subframes are not needed." If you have never bought them, thats one thing, but for those of us who have owned multiple camaros, firebirds and mustangs, they make such a nice difference, I STILL wonder why the factory didnt do this. They could have, very, very cheaply and the whole car would have been better all the way around from handling, ride quality, chassis feel, braking and even safety. Not to mention straighter body lines. Yes, having a stiffer platform can effect everyone of those things.

Next is the fact other people who may NOT know better read this info, and they need to know, the FIRST mod you should do to these cars if you plan on racing them in any way, is get some subframes!

Sorry if that sounded harsh, it was meant to instill the absolute need for them to any 3rd party reading this as they are a very important mod.

maverick22

No harm no foul, we're all on the same 3rd Gen boat erm, f-body here. But yes I do agree SFCs should have been stock but its also like the way GM didn't for-see any rust issues with our 3rd Gen Targa Tops, yet we now are paying the price quite literally.

TxTtopZ

I have no rust on my car anywhere. Its mostly a bone stock, all original 1985 Z28 with the LB9 and T-tops.

I have been thinking a lot about changing that fact lately.
Your right tho.. we are bretherin of the 3rd gennus Camarous

Base91

iTrader: (1)

"bunch of meanies". Funee. But seriously, I finally joined a club in August and now have the grand total of 30 autox laps under my belt in my son's discarded base 91 (v6 auto open diff no mods) which he bought for 2k. And it's some of the best fun I've ever had!! The pros have spent significant parts of their lives and disposable incomes on their cars. But can they say for sure they have more fun per lap? Maybe, but I calculated my fun at $40/sec (car cost / lap time). Cheap fun indeed. No doubt I'll spend some time and money but it won't be much and it'll be spread out over some years. The biggest improvement I think is to just drive better. My 30th lap was way faster than my first and I'll try hard to continue the trend. I'm only about 12 secs behind the experienced driver in his C4 with race tires. I reckon some experience and $500 will cut that a few secs because he has almost nowhere to go but slower! Remember the law of diminishing returns and try spending on what really matters first then see how it goes. Save some for girls and beer. If the experts can point to a hierarchy of what to buy in decreasing bang for the buck order that would be great. Thanks in advance.

TxTtopZ

I can tell you a few things that I know, as I am not an auto X guy, but I do like handling and these things have helped my past third gens.
1st off - Tires! Non low profile tires have unwanted "squish" which makes the car unstable as the weight rocks back and forth. Spring for some nice H rated low profile tires at the least. 255 50's or something.
2nd - Subframes! Get some, they will make the car handle better by preventing unwanted flex.
3rd - wonderbar! This helps keep your front end stable and it really works well with subframes as it keeps things in alignment.
4th - Good polyurethane bushings. Again, make the car stiffer and prevent unwanted steering angles during hard cornering.
5th - Speaking of steering angles there is a neat way to increase handling by adjusting your alignment a certain way. This measurement is posted in a few places but I dont remember what or where. A search should work out..
6th- Lighten the car up, if its just for autox, I would most def. lighten the car up as much as possible. Get rid of everything not needed, but if it were my car, I would keep part of the radio , nothing gets me into spirited driving than some good tunes!
7th - Automatic transmission mods - External cooler is cheap insurance and will insure longer life which saves you money. Next do a shift kit, if you can pick the gear instantly, you can go faster or even use it downshifting (all tho, it wont last long without a fully built unit) which is what I would really recommend. That or a T5 swap to 5 speed!
8th - Rear end - get a limited slip (posi) unit, it makes leaving the corners more fun and faster... more forward traction!
9th - Safety equipment! Some would argue this should be first!
10th - Do a V8 swap... just a mild 305 or 350 would make a huge difference
This is IF it was MY car...

Base91

iTrader: (1)

Good info. But... I'm married and have two kids in college. Woe is me and my car.

TxTtopZ

Most of that IS cheap. shift kit $30, trans cooler $40, wonder bar used from iroc $20, tires $300, PST bushings $80, etc etc.
Your gonna have to pay to play, accept it, get used to it, love it. Im married with 2 of my own, college? My wife is in college and its not that bad, but then again it varies so, like I said, your going to have to figure something out because you are going to break something sooner or later and if your not serious enough to invest in it, then why are you even bothering?

maverick22

Ditto on that except my kiddo is only 1.5 years old and I'M in college, although she does give me a little slack on that chain every know and then as far as my 89 goes. As for handling situations I couldn't agree with the list of mods more, 305 is kind of a waste of gas though, for the power out put and increased nose weight. Clean ride TxTtopZ

TxTtopZ

Thanks! I love my car, and often just stare at it for long periods of time. lol I think my neighbors think im weird. Bah, theyre just jealous because of my IROC. j/k! Im not even going there.
A 305 is not a waste of gas. It's the cheapest V8 on the planet, and can be had cheap which compliments your budget. If I had to spend $400.00 or less for 215hp/285tq -vs- a 2.8 or 3.1 I would go for it. It's not that I hate V6's camaro's (well, thats another story) but they just dont have a whole lot of aftermarket. I know of some cams and I think Engine Quest has some factory heads for them but im not sure if there is any benefit.

AM91Camaro_RS

I don't want to start a feud over 305 (or whatever v8) vs v6, but, there's quite a bit of aftermarket stuff for them. Also, FWD aluminum heads are the best bet, by far! A bit of an involved swap but well worth it. RWD iron heads are junk. lighter front end with the v6 is definitely an advantage for handling as long as you can make some power with it (turbo is always an option, there).

TxTtopZ

Good to know for the V6 guys. Neither motor is ideal these days, so rather your a v6 or v8 guy - its pointless to argue over.
I remember back in the day, my grandfather had an Oldsmobile Cutlass Siera w/ a 3300 V6, that baby would MOVE for FWD grandpa car! It was about a 90-92 model? Little 4DR car.

maverick22

Well I had a 305 in my 84 Camaro, it didn't suck too bad but definitely wasn't the greatest motor Chevy produced for the Camaro by far.. Just my .02..

mooch1

i have a STB and SFCs and a wonder bar with new shocks and springs with 16' wheels and new tires.,,direction is all tight.....the car handles like it's pratically on rails!! night and day difference...you don't need to spend a fortune...what i have here is the basic and necessity on any 3rd gen...you will see the difference right away with what i have done...try these things first before you overspend...

Guest

You my friend would be amazed at the difference between your car and mine. Most people have now idea wjust what these cars can really fell like. If I took all my parts off except for those you listed then the car I had would be boring.You'll just have to trust the opinion of someone that knows better.

mooch1

maybe your right , maybe not...but you have to agree...the people driving their 3rd gens without the upgrades i have at least made on my car don't know any better....

Iroc-Z28Man

Im gonna add my two cents on the subject, even though i know i some ppl will take it the wrong wayand i'll get nailed to the wall for it. so i'm gonna try to post this very carefully as not to offend anyone.

You dont need to spend a fortune on a third gen, if you shop around and find the deals instead of buying the fist thing u see in a catalouge you'll save 10s of thousands in a lifetime. If you spend the time to search around at swapmeets and big vendor events you'll find some deals. Along those same lines if you do all the work yourself and even fabricate some parts yourself you will once again save money. If you are gonna spend a fortune you might as well by a something that handles the like the best fromn the begining.

This post is not aimed at anyone inparticular it is only tips on how to bulid a good car on a budget really.

Guest

I fully agree. That was 100% my point. you do not know until you have experienced something.

I have always said though, I would NOT drive a top fuel funnycar because I have a pretty good idea from what I have driven that I would be along for the ride and at that magnitude you are at the mercy of luck that nothing catostrophically breaks. My point here is sometimes you can assume pretty well what your confort level is and if yoou really need that desire for more.

mooch1

that's fine,,but some people drive their stock 3rd gens with a 4 cyl or 6 cyl or big V8 and love them either way...whatever is fine for that person ,,then so be it ...i find that you can upgrade a lot on these cars ..i have myself ,,but with reason and at a good budget...these cars for the most of us are weekend summer cars and most of the time they are parked ...for me a car that's over the top or "showroom" never impressed me..a car at whatever price should be on the road and driven to be enjoyed...shinning the car with wax and bringing it on a trailer to a show never impressed me...i always said to myself...looks great!..but does it run??...better tires-suspension-engines-brakes etc etc is part of having fun with these cars...but over doing it isn't any better...just my 2 cents..

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Vetruck knows what he is saying. I followed alot of what he says in the last year or so and the difference in my car has been crazy. And I still have more I could do but it takes time and money to build. My car is so much tigher, predictable, and takes corners much better than before. This is, not even lowered with drop spindles yet, so it's at stock height. But, you'd be surprised. I drove in my friend's 2011 M3 and his car still handles a bit better but not by much. Ofcourse, he has 19's with i think 35 height tires and he is slammed practically, he uses the active stability management system all the time, but I think that a good setup with a good driver who can drive it properly could outperform his m3 in the turns..

mooch1

i never doubted anyone's knowledge, all i said was different strokes for different folks...

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Ah didn't mean to put it like that, My bad. Check out his thread (it's stickied) on ultimate suspension there's tons of cool info on there.

Hey where are you at in MTL? I'm in the east end. Don't know anyone with an IROC locally haha

mooch1

i'm in mtl east too...i haven't seen many irocs around here..while they are still a very popular car,,,not many around has the years go by...cool maybe we can check our cars one day...

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Yeah for sure. Ever been to iCar Circuit Track in Mirabel? That's where I'm going to take the car in the spring to test it on the skidpad and do laps on the track.

Guest

On the subject of M3 BMW's, I have some footage sequence (very tiny though and hard to see- but study it closely and you can see from "right to left") where I take down a BMW M3 on California Speedway coming off the high bank at about 120mph into a hard 90* left and then right chicane at about 35 mph. I completely eat him for lunch under braking and corner entrance. We are both on street tires. For those not familiar with my old car, It had massive 13" front rotors and 6 piston Wilwood calipers under factory IROC wheels. and 12" 4piston rears.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I think there's much less reality in "handling" threads than there are power/drag racing threads. In the power/ drag racing threads there's always the ability to get the timeslip as validation or invalidation of someone's idea about their car.

On the flip side it is unbelievably rare for people (thirdgen members included) to actually take their car to a road course or autocross. Consequently you have threads where people claim their car handles on rails because of an STB.

I have to tell you that the vast majority of folks claiming this sort of stuff on this site would be extremely humbled if they actually took their car out on a track. I know my very first time I was. It really drove home the importance of good tires above all else.

Point of this post? Get out there and do a time attack or autoX. You might have a whole lot of fun finding out your car actually handles poorly. You can't improve unless you know where you are at.

rayar

iTrader: (1)

Here is my 2 cents so take it for what it is worth. First I have built a dedicated autocross 3rd gen that I finally got handling with the front runners in my region so I do have somewhat of an idea what works on these cars, Maybe not like Dean but I also spent much less $ on my car.

What did GM do to make these car such good handlers? Stiff springs and big Sway bars. I tried for about 3 years to make a small sway bar work on my car and when I finally upgraded to a 36mm bar it made such a big difference that if there was a larger bolt on bar it would be on the car. As far as spring rate, even though the 3rd gen has the stiffest springs of any factory GM car it can use more. I was running 1300lb springs on the front and went up to 525lb rear(with a small 19mm rear sway bar) to finally get the car to turn well but even on full slicks I was about at the most rate I would use, Never had a chance to play with softer springs with the larger bar but that was my next step. I think on Street tires you would be best at about 900-1000 lb front and probably around 350-400 rear with a small rear bar or 275-325 with a larger bar(That is really only a modest increase in wheel rate over stock). I recomend starting with the biggest bars you can get and tune it to your liking with springs, I firmly believe that these cars need a large amount of roll rate to handle well. Also get the best shocks you can afford and do not use poly bushing in the rear LCA's, build some rod end LCA's. in the front A-arms, get some del-a-lum bushings(Poly will also work fine in the front) or if you think you can handle it modify or build some a-arms to use rod ends. BTW, I believe after I put the 36mm bar on that I could have went down to about 1000lb fr and 375lb rears with good results. I would have really liked to have started expermenting with larger 3 piece racing sway bars but never got that far. I think these cars would respond well to the big bar soft spring theory.

Guest

Hopefully we'll get you in the next picture Pablo. Like Pablo states, we have a good group of talent here locally getting our cars out to tracks and in the case of Time Attack we are shaming the local imports at their own game in full size American muscle. Our local club here in So cal makes up of some pretty diverse, educated and experienced racers, builders, and fabricators. A few of us at the last event shown Left to right we had Tom (Injdinjn) Mike (Greygoose) Jerry (JerryWho) Raul (89 TA ? Hopes thats right Raul) and myself kneeling in front of the indian- Dean (Vetruck) after a local tuesday night at the time attack track. As Mike has said, A bunch of guys out doing it. We all respect eachother and unspokenly push eachother.

There is one very modest face here with exceptional talent. Alot of you know him from what you have seen him fabricate here on TGO, but he has a bit more of a racing background then alot of people know- A few little hints:

1989
Rich Vogler won the CRA Sprint Car race at the Mesa Marin Raceway, Bakersfield,CA. Ron Shuman was second followed by Jerry Meyer, Jeff Gordon and Mike Sweeney.
Jerry Who? Jerry Meyer- http://articles.latimes.com/1989-06-...-firestone-cra

Jerry is already about to take down the time attack track record here localy in his 3rd gen that is still aways from completion to his potential of a build with a fairly stock 305 motor still it it momentarily to boot- just wait til the real bullet goes in.. Pablo is on track for that same title in his 3rd gen that most of you have been tracking his recent build. These tight times and poor economy, we are all on major budgets hindering any real quests as I might credit Mike for running on rock hard 10 year old rubber and doing exceptionally well as well as Raul on his drag radials on a road course- we all do what we can, but at least we are doing it.

TxTtopZ

With that said (and said perfectly I might add) I have honestly always been afraid of doing autox. Not because I am scared of it, but because of how hard it is on your car. It seems like almost autox car I see (especially up close) has some serious cosmetic issues. For a car someone is trying to keep as pristine as possible how does this work? Am I missing something? The racing itself has always been attractive and I would LOVE to whip up on some unsuspecting iimports but if its going to cost me body work and pain all the time... I cant see doing it.

On a side note, I have a question about subframes. I particularly like the UMI units but I have never bought any before. I always have had my chassis guy fab some up. What are some good ones (price is sort of sensitive) that you guys recommend. I can see your input being more valuable to a street car.

rayar

iTrader: (1)

First off, autocross is not hard on cars. I have seen the type of car that you are talking about and my Camaro was even one of those but in my case it was because I spent the money on making the car faster instead of pretty(thats the case with most prepared class autoX cars), It usually got a wash job and general clean up before events but you just can't polish a turd.

On a side note, I used to autocross an allmost show quality Dodge Stealth and the only thing that happened when autocrossing was scuffs on the front valence from hitting cones that would come off with a little polishing compound. I have friends that autocross some very nice, fast cars that look as good now as when they started. Cars like 911 Porsches, Z06 Vettes and Lotus Elise's. Driving my Stealth on the street was harder on it then autocrossing.

At an event this year we had a Nissan GTr show up and he used masking tape to protect the front valence and around his wheelwells. Just saying that there are ways to protect your car if it has a nice finish.

TxTtopZ

With all due respect, you cannot tell me autox is not hard on cars, it is! So is pretty much any other racing. I guess all the cars I see just had some bad luck..

rayar

iTrader: (1)

I would expect that response from someone that "is afraid to autocross". Sure, an incedent can happen, I have even had a couple of whoops but in my nearly 10 years in the sport I have seen 1 engine spin a bearing at an event and a few syncros fail in transmisions. The fact is that the engine would have probably spun that bearing in the near future and the syncros failed in some pretty weak transmissions, you can also factor in that maybe the driver missed a shift or over revved the engine. **** happens, it can also happen on the street so are you just going to lock your car away in the garage and never drive it?

My Stealth got more wear and tear being driven on the street then it did at any autocross.

Guest

Txttopz- It is a true point what you notice about most autox cars being beat up. It is not from being autox'ed though. 95% of autox cars are cars that people have owned for years and were daily drivers. people buy new cars and turn their older cars into play toys. They put the money into the suspension and tires and not worry so much about looks of the car.

Autox is NOT hard on a car. It is hard on tires- thats it. Autox is designed to be a competitive sport where single cars run a non evasive course at normal hwy speeds. No straight away is to be longer than 100 feet. It is all corners at low speeds generally under 60mph unless you get into the extreme cars and even that is rare for them on most courses to be cornering above 60mph. The courses flow with transistion after transition keeping the speeds down. Tires are always squealing because they are always turning. Motors really do not rev high for very long at all like they do on road courses. Brakes do not get hot- rarely does anyone get brake fade in autox. Time attack is 3 sequent laps instead of 1 like autox, and even then brakes are still mostly not an issue for 85% of cars. The ones that have issues have maintanence problems are are generally not sports cars to begin with like someone running a 4 door Hyundai.

Tires tires tires!!!! That is what takes the beating in autox. I have always preached tires and shocks- thats what you "need" for autox, the rest is gravy to start reducing those other tenths of seconds. Why shocks? because shocks control body movement- they control the weight of the chassis bobbling about on the tires in those transitions after transitions after transition. Shocks keep the chassis weight held more in place not breaching the extent of the suspension travel articulations. the shocks help keep the tire footprint more consistantly flat whent he chassis is restricted from compressing and articulating the suspension geometry to extreme points where the tire footprints are not level to the ground thus loosing traction. The more you get onto the sidewalls of the tires the more the small portion of footprint you run on overheats and glazes the tire tread and the more traction loss you get. Better quality tire rubber compound makes a world of difference in softness,grip and heat control to help prevent glazing.

Niow to go bak in this post and look at my build sheet (my list of modifications) the basic things and the first lets say $5000.00 will help me cut down lets say 5 seconds. The next $5000.00 helps cut off another 2 seconds, the next $5000.00 helps cut off anothe 1/2 second...and so on. It costs money to complete at the top levels of a cars potential. WHY? it takes exotic parts to gain weight reduction in unspeung weight ration so as to keep that tire footprint back down on the ground and not upset the chassis in a polar movement fashion as a heavier asembly being forced upward will. Lightness of moving parts is ket to both engine reving, AND suspension function- so just as exotic parts in a motor are expensive for that little extra uhmp, so are exotic suspension parts. I had over 25K into mine in suspension weight, drivetrain mass and rotation weight, and brake weight.

Someone throws a 10 lb medicine ball at you from 5 feet away- you try and stop it and throw it back....ok...how much easier now to stop a 10 grams beach ball and throw it back that same 5 feet. Your body is the car chassis. The medicine ball will move your bady backwards unsettling you as you try and contain the motion force and recoil it. You will not move your chassis at all with the beach vball and you can get it right back onto the ground making traction with a flkat foottprint------make sence? unsprung weight is HUGE. Its why my car handled at such a level. I will bet big bucks I had the highest sprng to unsprung weight ratio of anyones 3rd gen. I focused that cost on reducing unsprung weight.

TxTtopZ

Hmm... I see whats going on... I have applied "autox" "cone coursed racing" were road racing should be... Those are the vehicles I am speaking of, and not the nostalgic classes either... That is fast racing with some "contact" between vehicles.
This is what I would be interested in....
There is a track outside of Austin I am interested in joining called Harris Hill H2R which is a road racing course.

As soon as you said straight away was not 100ft... I knew I had confused the 2 which is my fault, I have been working nights for 3 weeks now (due to a sick mother who is terminal) and maybe get 3 hrs. of sleep in the morning. My apology.
Anyway, the H2R track is pretty expensive.. big one time fee with $100 monthly on top of that. Maybe next year....

BTW.. No one recommended any subframes?

rayar

iTrader: (1)

Hey, I apoligize for being a bit of an A-hole. Road race is completly different and something I wouldn't do. However I now the Porsche Club of America puts on track day events around here and many of our local members do that. Even though there are other vehicles on the track the potential for damage is still pretty minimal compared to a real road race and that might be something you could look into.

About subframes. Good way to loose weight up front if it is legal in the class you are running. For track days it really dosen't matter but if you autocross changeing the subframe can but you into a pretty fast class.

Sorry to hear about your mother, Believe me, I know what your going through right now as I went through it with my mother.

dans89

not tryin to thread jack here....... but which is better for SFCs? bolt in or weld in??

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (15)

all should be welded in for the best results, sometimes the bolt in ones have more meat around the mounting areas and can be welded in as well anyway

dans89

ok cool thanks for the info. ive been considering SFCs for a while now, and if they make that much of an improvement then the $200 price tag is a small one. and specific ones you guys recommend??

The Project

iTrader: (6)

UMI and Spohn are popular and quality built pieces.

I run UMI and luv them.

http://www.umiperformance.com/catalo...roducts_id=127

mooch1

[quote=Pablo;4713376]I think there's much less reality in "handling" threads than there are power/drag racing threads. In the power/ drag racing threads there's always the ability to get the timeslip as validation or invalidation of someone's idea about their car.

On the flip side it is unbelievably rare for people (thirdgen members included) to actually take their car to a road course or autocross. Consequently you have threads where people claim their car handles on rails because of an STB.

If that was aimed at me, well i didn't only install a trut tower brace and claim better handling...along with the Strut brace, i installed weld in sub frame connectors, a wonder bar...new ball joints-tie rods and complete new direction...new kyb shocks and struts and new coils and new 16' goodyear tires...with these small mods,,the car handles like night and day compared to any stock 3rd gen,, and i have driven quite a few in my time...of course people can go even further...but what i have done is quite a bit to improve handling and with a decent budget and not spending a fortune ...all this for a weekend city car...

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

I don't think it was aimed at you, but there are alot of people that claim their iroc/camaro/firebird handles on rails and that is because they've said that "after installing SFC, my car feels like it's on rails!". This is true i've seen this before on this forum lol... I can see why they say that though, because it is a night and day difference, but what Pablo meant was that people will claim their car handles "amazing", "on rails", etc. but with no real-world testing to back that up, or to compare to other cars' handling. I too think my car handles amazingly, and I love the feel compared to other cars, but I will not say that it handles better than a certain car because I have no real-world tests to back that up. But, you can definitely make these cars handle a hell of a lot better with only a decent amount of money, compared to what they were before the modding began.

Guest

I put my money where my mouth was many times-and actually also boasted a license plate the read "OnARail"

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/518752...e-co-ca-us?p=8

godreject

iTrader: (1)

I see no real reference to brands other then personal opinion. As far as strut braces go, any input on the UMI strut brace as far as strength specially in the middle. Im running slp runners so i wll have to modify them by grinding the center off even more, will that minimize strength. Dean what do you think about the UMI piece, by the way i will get their strut mounts as well.

sam85iroc

lol everybody... I remember when I traded my longbed 4x4 chevy w/ 31" mudders for a ragged '85 IROC (i'd only owned trucks til then)... It felt like cutting-edge chassis tuning :P

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

lmaoo world of a difference!