Anyone see the new watts link?
#101
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Re: Anyone see the new watts link?
You are stuck on the simple movement of the mechanism and are not understanding the dynamics of the chassis movement.
The chassis rotats simply around the FIXED roll center of the watts.
The reverse watts is NOT FIXED and moves up and down link a PHB. So why change it? the only improvement you get (which I question is not an improvement yet others will argue it is) is your RC does not migrate left or right off center yawing the roll axis like a PHB setup does.
The watts and the reverse watts are not the same- I have been saying this same thing how many times now?
The chassis rotats simply around the FIXED roll center of the watts.
The reverse watts is NOT FIXED and moves up and down link a PHB. So why change it? the only improvement you get (which I question is not an improvement yet others will argue it is) is your RC does not migrate left or right off center yawing the roll axis like a PHB setup does.
The watts and the reverse watts are not the same- I have been saying this same thing how many times now?
#102
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Posts: n/a
Re: Anyone see the new watts link?
Maybe its just me, but whenever I have analyzed objects and motion, things that are fixed remain fixed, and things that are in motion remain in motion. They dont just switch because you want it to.
#103
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Anyone see the new watts link?
So how does the car know what is 'fixed' and what is not? Do you send it a memo?
Maybe its just me, but whenever I have analyzed objects and motion, things that are fixed remain fixed, and things that are in motion remain in motion. They dont just switch because you want it to.
Maybe its just me, but whenever I have analyzed objects and motion, things that are fixed remain fixed, and things that are in motion remain in motion. They dont just switch because you want it to.
#104
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 808
Likes: 2
From: Ft Wayne, IN
Car: 2003 F-150
Engine: 4.6L Modular V8
Transmission: 4R70W
Axle/Gears: Ford 8.8"/3.55 LSD
Re: Anyone see the new watts link?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt%27s_linkage
Let me see if I can break this down for all to understand. Reference the animation in the link.
L2 is the bellcrank & P is the fixed point attached to the chassis. L1 & L3 are the linkages that are moving. The outboard end points of L1 & L3 are moving in an S shaped range of motion and the inboard end points of L1 & L3 are moving laterally toward the center of the axle as the bellcrank rotates.
The inboard lateral movement is of concern because it will cause the axle to move laterally. And by the math of others, it appears to be right at .09" of lateral movement for our cars. Not a whole lot if you ask me.
Seems to me the axle remains in a "fixed" position and the chassis is fixed a specified distance away from the axle thus giving a very constrained & defined roll center to the chassis.
Watt's linkage is used in the rear axle of some car suspensions as an improvement over the Panhard rod, which was designed in the early twentieth century. Both methods intend to prevent relative sideways motion between the axle and body of the car. Watt’s linkage approximates a vertical straight line motion more closely, and does so while locating the centre of the axle rather than toward one side of the vehicle, as more commonly used when fitting a long Panhard rod.
It consists of two horizontal rods of equal length mounted at each side of the chassis. In between these two rods, a short vertical bar is connected. The center of this short vertical rod – the point which is constrained in a straight line motion - is mounted to the center of the axle. All pivoting points are free to rotate in a vertical plane.
In a way, Watt’s linkage can be seen as two Panhard rods mounted opposite each other. In Watt’s arrangement, however, the opposing curved movements introduced by the pivoting Panhard rods are compensated by the short vertical rotating bar.
The linkage can be inverted, in which case the centre P is attached to the body, and L1 and L3 mount to the axle. This reduces the unsprung mass and changes the kinematics slightly. This is used on Australian V8 Supercars.
Watt's linkage can also be used to prevent axle movement in the longitudinal direction of the car; however, this is more common in racing suspension systems. This application usually involves two Watt's linkages on each side of the axle, mounted parallel to the driving direction.
It consists of two horizontal rods of equal length mounted at each side of the chassis. In between these two rods, a short vertical bar is connected. The center of this short vertical rod – the point which is constrained in a straight line motion - is mounted to the center of the axle. All pivoting points are free to rotate in a vertical plane.
In a way, Watt’s linkage can be seen as two Panhard rods mounted opposite each other. In Watt’s arrangement, however, the opposing curved movements introduced by the pivoting Panhard rods are compensated by the short vertical rotating bar.
The linkage can be inverted, in which case the centre P is attached to the body, and L1 and L3 mount to the axle. This reduces the unsprung mass and changes the kinematics slightly. This is used on Australian V8 Supercars.
Watt's linkage can also be used to prevent axle movement in the longitudinal direction of the car; however, this is more common in racing suspension systems. This application usually involves two Watt's linkages on each side of the axle, mounted parallel to the driving direction.
L2 is the bellcrank & P is the fixed point attached to the chassis. L1 & L3 are the linkages that are moving. The outboard end points of L1 & L3 are moving in an S shaped range of motion and the inboard end points of L1 & L3 are moving laterally toward the center of the axle as the bellcrank rotates.
The inboard lateral movement is of concern because it will cause the axle to move laterally. And by the math of others, it appears to be right at .09" of lateral movement for our cars. Not a whole lot if you ask me.
Seems to me the axle remains in a "fixed" position and the chassis is fixed a specified distance away from the axle thus giving a very constrained & defined roll center to the chassis.
#106
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 808
Likes: 2
From: Ft Wayne, IN
Car: 2003 F-150
Engine: 4.6L Modular V8
Transmission: 4R70W
Axle/Gears: Ford 8.8"/3.55 LSD
Re: Anyone see the new watts link?
Care to point out where I said anything else to the contrary? I was only trying to explain how it was working. Don't think for one second that I don't know that something is being changed here.
Either quote me correctly or don't quote me at all. If there is one thing I absolutely hate, its people trying to put words in my mouth!
Either quote me correctly or don't quote me at all. If there is one thing I absolutely hate, its people trying to put words in my mouth!
#108
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 808
Likes: 2
From: Ft Wayne, IN
Car: 2003 F-150
Engine: 4.6L Modular V8
Transmission: 4R70W
Axle/Gears: Ford 8.8"/3.55 LSD
#110
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 808
Likes: 2
From: Ft Wayne, IN
Car: 2003 F-150
Engine: 4.6L Modular V8
Transmission: 4R70W
Axle/Gears: Ford 8.8"/3.55 LSD
Re: Anyone see the new watts link?
I know from a cost/benefit analysis that its not really worth in on our cars since a PHB is so much cheaper, but it seems to me that it'd be great for a street & AX/Road Course car.
Expensive beyond belife: yep. Awesome as all get out: hell yeah. Since when has cost detered someone from doing something in the name of cool?
Expensive beyond belife: yep. Awesome as all get out: hell yeah. Since when has cost detered someone from doing something in the name of cool?
#111
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,298
Likes: 2
From: Norfolk VA
Car: 85 Camaro IROC
Engine: 5.7 TPI
Transmission: 700-R4
Axle/Gears: open rear, 3.42 gears
Re: Anyone see the new watts link?
if all you care about is a blingy rear end location mechanism, then i suggest a mumford linkage.
the coolest one i have seen so far is a WOB link. extremely simple for the bling factor.
keep your ratios of the long and short links 2:1 and you will get the most linear movement
the coolest one i have seen so far is a WOB link. extremely simple for the bling factor.
keep your ratios of the long and short links 2:1 and you will get the most linear movement
#112
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 808
Likes: 2
From: Ft Wayne, IN
Car: 2003 F-150
Engine: 4.6L Modular V8
Transmission: 4R70W
Axle/Gears: Ford 8.8"/3.55 LSD
Re: Anyone see the new watts link?
if all you care about is a blingy rear end location mechanism, then i suggest a mumford linkage.
the coolest one i have seen so far is a WOB link. extremely simple for the bling factor.
keep your ratios of the long and short links 2:1 and you will get the most linear movement
the coolest one i have seen so far is a WOB link. extremely simple for the bling factor.
keep your ratios of the long and short links 2:1 and you will get the most linear movement
Now, Deans design was a great step in the right direction for a bolt-on Mumford, but IMHO, he compromised on how he braced the driver side mount. The PHB brace on our car runs from the passenger side chassis PHB mount to the drivers side rear subframe over the axle which triangulates the rear subframe. In his setup, the mount for the Mumford runs parallel to the axle and is located by a drop-down from the drivers side which boxes the chassis, making it terrible in resisting torisonal forces.
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raymondandretti
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09-27-2015 06:43 PM