Faceman

Hello.

I have been doing some track racing recently and I very much enjoyed it. I raced against some Corvettes ( C4 - C5 -C6) Porsches and other cars on a closed track. Therefore I would like to change my Formula into a car than can rival the Corvette C4 in agility. I know that fbody does not have IRS but still I would like to make it the most agile it can possibly be. I would like to ask which components and from what manufacturer should I buy. I`m only interested in buying the best parts, price is not a limitation. I`m not expert in suspension so I would greatly appreciate your help.

Also I`m going to swap the engine to LS1 to match the other cars on the track.

Thank you for any help

Kind regards
Marcin

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

Depending on your fabrication skills or the depth of your wallet, you could have a C4 IRS installed in your car. It has been done before and from what I hear, the dimensions are very close so it will look stock when its done (if its done well).

Otherwise I would go with some Koni shocks/struts, Eibach springs, Hotpart strut mounts, and UMI or Spohn for everything else. This link will provide you with an idea of what to do (https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...ng-f-body.html), otherwise I suggest you spend your spare time reading through the many threads in this board.

If your going to be an active user, it shouldn't take long for you to know everything you would ever need to know about our suspension. I joined a ccouple months ago with very very little knowledge about suspensions and now I am giving people advice and answering questions.

Faceman

Thank you foryour answer.
I am not going to do IRS on my car, this would no longer be an fbody. Here in Poland we have a C3 corvette with over 1400 horsepower which has been converted to all wheel drive and does 8`s in the quarter. But this is no longer a true vette in my opinion because of the 4x4 drivetrain.

I checked the link you provided but the suspension guidline there is very general. I would like to know for example which panhard bar is the best: BMR, Edelbrock, Hotchkiss etc.

Right now I`m going with the QA1 rear coilover kit. The rest is going to be panhard, control arms, trailing arms, front coilovers, full bushing kit and stabilizers. What manufafturer should I choose for those parts ( I want the best materials and fully adjustable). Also what else should I obtain?

Thanks again for help

Cheers
Marcin

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

That sounds like one amazing C3! However, I do agreee with you... not truly a corvette.

As for the panhard bar and others... DO NOT go with a boxed design, it will cause bind. I recommend going with a tubular peice.

When it comes to bushings, you can either go with rubber, poly, rod, or hotparts new poly/rod thing. Most people end up going with a rod end on the rear end and poly on the body for the lower control arms and the same rod/poly for the panhard bar. That will provide the handling most desire and still keep the ride streetable. If you want true race car performance then go with the rod/rod ends. They make all the bumps a lot more rough, but the rear end will be a lot stiffer which will make for the best handling. However, the downside to poly on LCA is that it will squek (supposidly black poly doesn't do it as often because of the graphite in it acts as a lubricant). Otherwise, poly everywhere is fine. I think the rod ends typically get replaced every 50,000 miles. Del-a-lum bushings seem to be all the rage for the A-arm bushings (can be found at Global West http://www.globalwest.net/1982-02%20...20bushings.htm)

Spohn and UMI offer all the parts you would need at relitivley the same price, although UMI seems to be a hair cheaper cost wise. If your going to have the engine out you could replace the heavy k-member with a Spohn or PAracing k-member. If you do that you should get the tubular A-arms w/out spring perches (since you want front coilovers). As for the coilovers, the best I've read about have been from Spohn (be sure to get the "tour" setup).

Based on what I've read, the QA1 products haven't been getting very good quality reviews since they moved production over to China, so I'm not sure about your choice for shocks. I'm getting the Koni yellows for my car (as soon as they are in stock) since they are the only streetable shock/struts for our cars that offer adjustablity. The fronts are externally adjustable but the rears arent. I think if you buy the Koni yellows for 4th gens you can externally adjust the rear shocks as well but I'm sure about fitment. If you don't like the Koni shocks, Bilsteins are always an option. They arent adjustable but they are still ranked up there with Koni.

Don't forget about the SFC's and LCA relocation brackets. The ideal angle of the LCA is to have it parallel with the ground. The LCA relocation brackets achievethis by lowing the bolt point on the rear end which will help reduce wheel hope allowing you to take off harder. If you plan on runing a duel exhaust, you can also get UMI's panhard bar relocation bracket. I think it allows up to a 3in duel exhaust. Aslo if your car doesnt have a wonderbar, you should get that as well. For sway bars I've heard that anything bigger than the WS6/1LE combo (36mm hollow front and 24mm solid rear) is too much for our cars. The WS6/1LE cars also came with a 2.5in aluminum drivshaft and the aluminum calipers. However if your running track events and money isn't a problem, you should go all out and get the C6 calipers and rotors for the front and rear. That will require you move up to 18" wheels. You can contact pbmiller about that. He can be found in the brake board. He sells all kinds of other setups if the C6 brakes are to much for you.

You should also swap out the stock torque arm for an aftermarket piece that relocates the stock mounting (on the tranny) to on the tranny cross member. This will reduce the chance of breaking the tailsharft off of your tranny.

If you want you could install a roll cage but if your car has T-tops, the roll cage will get in the way, making it very difficult to take them out and put them in.

When your ordering make sure you look for things like Spohns coil-over package (tubular K-member, tubular A-arms, strut mounts, and actually coilover setup), and UMI's rear package (LCA and panhard rod). This will save you a ton of money in the long run.

UMI
http://umiperformance.com/82-92fbody
Spohn
http://www.spohn.net/?action=shop&pcid=1000

I know theres more to say but I have to go to work now. If you have anymore questions feel free to ask.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

if you are dead set on coiul-overs look into spohns kit. The fronts are a good setup and the rear set is the QA1 setup, but with a reinforcement plate for the rear mount, without it you can seriously damage the upper shock mount.

I have spohns front and rear coil-overs, i like them.

Dont for get a wonderbar, steering brace. They make a big improvement on the feel of the front of the car and help prevent the steeringbox from ripping off the frame.


Sounds like a fun project, keep us updated.

I would really like to try autox someday.

Faceman

Thank you very very much Racing Geek, you answered my question pretty straightforward. Also thanks to 86 T/A for making my choice about the coil overs. I will keep you updated on the project. The first step is LS1 and 4L60 transmission which I hope to buy very soon. I also will gradually buy all the suspension components starting with the wonderbar and tubular panhard bar from Spohn then coilovers bushings etc. I also have a question. Should I buy the adjustable panhard or not? Is it really worth to buy all the suspension components adjustable? The car is going to be street/track car.

About the brakes - I decided on Corvette LS1 13" rotors front conversion. As for the rear I do not have an idea. I have the worst rear end available - 2,73 without the LS and with drum brakes What to do? Buy a decent 3rd gen rear end and build it up with good brakes from LS1 and Auburn posi with 3,73 gears? Another option is buying a rear end from 4th gen but it is wider and I could have some wheel fitment issues.

Thanks again for answering my questions. It is very much appreciated.

Kind regards
Marcin

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Being from Poland, my guess is you may at least know of Polly Motorsports...and the 1407 hp, twin-turbo, Trans Am...


http://www.pollymotorsport.no/index.php?mapping=2

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

since you are going to be playing with the ride height, you should get an adjustable panhard bar. the lower control arms dont need to be adjustable, but adjustable ones will allow you to correct any rear alignment issues that arise form lowering the car or chassis tolerances. since you are autocrossing, the poly/rod end combo control arms and panhard bar would bea good choice for you. they will still give you an acceptable ride and also have adjustability.

you have the same rear i did!

the rear will depend on what wheels your plan to use. If you are going to be buying new wheels, a 4th gen rear would be a good choice, they have much better brakes and if you can find one form a ss camaro they also have a nice zexel torsion posi unit. Its still a 10 bolt, but should hold up fine.

Dont forget subframe connectors! they should be first on your "to do" list.

Are you planning to race recreationaly or compete? if so there are different classes and each on has rules about what you can and cant do with your car. you should check that out to it is applies

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

Most people just upgrade to the LS1 brakes. They provide far better brake power than stock and it is easy to find parts for. Plus they fit under 16" wheels so a lot of people just keep their IROC wheels.

I was told from another autocrosser (he has a 600+hp 69' Corvette... been doing it for years) that I shouldn't go any higher than 3.42 because I would always brake the back end lose coming out of corners unless I am really light on the gas. So I'm assuming it would be even worse if your going to be dropping in an LS1.

About the rear end (I also have a 10 bolt 2.73 with drums). I would recommend finding a 3rd gen rear end that came stock with 3.23 gears (they have the series 3 carrier that allows gear ratios of 3.23 and up) even if it only has drums. If it does have the drums, chances are pbmiller has a backing plate for you to use to convert it to a disk brake setup. Also by getting a 3rd gen rear, you can still run stock wheels, and if you want something different, just add some spacers.

Both UMI and Spohn offer great products. They both claim you don't lose ground clearance with their SFC but based on the pictures I have seen of other peoples cars, Spohn's product tucks under the car better. Spohn's SFC (round tube) also goes right next to the pinch weld on our cars so people often times weld there too. If you go with UMI, their SFC (boxed tubing) sits further away from the floor pan so in order to get as many weld points as Spohn, people have to add extra metal between the SFC and their floor.

For strut mounts it is between Spohn and Hotpart. Spohn's product is 1" taller than the stock unit so it gives the strut more travel for lowered and non-lowered vehicles. It also uses a QA1 bearing which is stronger than the stock rubber bearing making your steering inputs more precise. However, they are a lot more than Hotparts piece (roughly $60 more) and they aren't much better. Hotpart is only a 1/2" taller but still provides enough travel to prevent the strut from bottoming out. The also incorporate caster adjustment into their strut mount and offer then most room for adjustment which no other company has. They use a teflon coated chrome-moly bearing instead of QA1 because it is simply stronger. Plus you have to like the lifetime warranty Hotpart has on their strut mounts.

It still seems like I'm forgetting to say something...

--------------------------------------------
On a side note to 86TA... you have to try it. Drag racing is really only fun if you have a built up motor and can get really get low times. However, even if you race in a big four door truck, it is still a blast (last year I used to race my dads 4 door Dodge Dakota Sport because I was only 16 and didn't have my camaro at the time). I highly recommend you try autocrossing... especially with all the suspension mods you did to your car.

Dewey316

Is this going to be a track only car?

Forget the stuff listed here, if you are really not on a budget, and building a race car, use proper parts.

Being in Europe, You might be able to get some good deals on pretty high end stuff. What are you fabrication skills like, or are you looking for 100% bolt in stuff?

The front struts are going to be the hardest thing to do, since there aren't a lot of really high end ones out there. For springs, I would get Ground-Control weight jacks, and Eibach ERS Race springs. Rates will probably be determined by the tracks you are racing at.

Back to the shocks/strut thing. I would check and see of Ohlins makes anything that would work, the rears will probably be pretty easy, it would be finding something to use in the front. There is also Penske and Bilstein Race stuff.

http://www.unbalancedengineering.com.../BilsteinRear/

http://www.unbalancedengineering.com/Camaro/Penske/

Brakes, I would look at AP Racing, since they are likely cheaper for you in Europe than getting stock crap from our side of the pond.

Going for the high end stuff on the shocks is really going to get you a huge advantage. If you have the fab skills, to do a pushrod style with Ohlins coil-overs, or something like that, you would be miles ahead of anything that is bolt in. Especialy if you get double or tripple adjustable stuff.

I would start by trying to work with stuff that you don't have to pay to ship from the US, that is going to save you a lot of money that can be spent to get better parts.

--John

Faceman

Stephen I`ve seen the Polly Motorsports T/A. It`s an amazing car but it is overpowered in my opinion. In 720 hp form it drifts on an entire track on one of the movies. 1400 hp seems too much for a race car fbody.

Racing Geek I`m thinking of Corvette LS1 13" inch rotors. Also I was leaning towards the same idea about the rear end. I will look for a posi 3rd gen rear and eventually put rear LS1 brakes on it. I would love to get 17" Firehawk Ronal R15 wheels.

Right now my part list looks like this:

Spohn tubular Woder bar non adjustable
Spohn adjustable tubular panhard rod
Spohn adjustable tubular lower control arms
Energy suspension polyurethane bushings total kit.
Spohn Tubular Sub-Frame Connectors - T-Top & Hard Top Cars
Rear Coil Over Kit - QA1 Single Adjustable Shocks
Spohn Solid 4140 Chrome Moly - 25mm (1") Rear Sway Bar
Spohn Tubular Front Lower A-Arms - Bushings - Coil-Over Style

What do you think of it?

Dewey316 my car is raced on track occasionally. Mostly it`s a spring/summer street car. My goal is to match or exceed if possible the handling of C4 corvettes. Last year I raced against some C5s, C4s and even Chevy SSR, which I almost managed to overtake . I was able to keep up with the L98 C4s but only because their drivers were probably rookies. The events at which I race are corvette track days. The are organized by my friends from Vette motorshop. Here`s a link to last years event: http://www.vette.com.pl/galeria_zlot.htm
All the mechanical job on my car is performed by those guys at Vette they are really amazing having done some 600+ horsepower C5s and C6s as well as many other US cars. So they will be handling the installation of LS1 into my car as well as upgrading the suspension.
You gave me an interesting link with this Unbalanced racing. I`m interested in those Penske or Bilstein shocks. But I could not find the price on their website, how much can they cost? Also will the car still be streetable with those shocks installed? I will also do some research on european brake companies. But I doubt any of them make a kit for fbody. Also they are very very expensive (Stoptech, AP, Movit, Brembo, Alcon).

Thank you again for all your feedback. I will keep you posted on the progress.
Cheers
Marcin

Dewey316

Marcin,

Pricing is pretty expensive, the bilstiens are probably $600-$700 US, penske are probably a bit more. I would THINK that you could source the bilsteins from somewhere in EU for less though, the problem is, you would have to contact bilstein to try to track down matching fronts, that might not be so easy.

I know AP doesn't make a bolt in, but they should make a pretty standard radial mount brake, you sould just need to get the proper adapting brackets. I was just thinking, considering duty costs and shipping from the states, you might be able to get something like AP for less than shipping stocker stuff from the states, and get more performance out of it. You would just need the installing shop, to machine a bracket to mount a radial mount caliper.

If you are just going for being able to lap with the vettes on a track day, and not building a race car, then you will probably be ok with Koni's and some good springs, these cars do very well with just a little bit of work, going with all the really high-end stuff, just gets you to go that little bit faster.

--John
(Ha, we should start an international car-parts exchange system. I have a terrible time sourcing and finding euro-parts for my Audi, and I bet you have a tough time finding f-body parts)

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

Just be careful when you go with that large of a rear swaybar. Often times it upsets the balance of the car causing it to over-steer under heavy braking or under heavy acceleration when in a turn. I plan on using the WS6/1LE sway bars (36mm hollow front, and 24mm solid rear). They are much stiffer than what I currently have on my IROC (and what most people have) and they are a fraction of the cost when compared to the Spohn or other aftermarket swaybars. For example, I just bought the WS6 front swaybar for $30 shipped to my door (still waiting for it to get to my door) and I found a rear bar for $20 shipped to my door. That's $50 (including shipping) for a much better setup than stock as opposed to Spohns $329 (plus shipping) for something that most people consider to be too much.

I would also recommend looking for companies over in Europe that provide parts for the F-bodies. However, since an F-body isn't a common thing over there, that may be very difficult.

Faceman

Dewey. What can I put on front? Should I buy the front coilovers too, or just get myself a good adjustable shocks?
It`s exactly how you describe it. There is little parts for US cars here and plenty for European market. For example there are used BMW V8 engines for 1500 -1700 dollars. Here is our version of ebay called the allegro. You can find many parts there. www.allegro.pl. For example Audi V8 engine
http://www.allegro.pl/item339415639_...bz_299_km.html
As for the brakes I have decided on C5 13 inch brakes conversion. It should be enough for track days.

Racing Geek I have WS6 sway bars from the factory, because my Firebird is a Formula with WS6 package Does it mean I don`t have to change the Sway bars at all? As for the european companies there is no parts for fbody All that is left is adapting and fabrication which I`m not going to try.

TonyC

iTrader: (1)

Marcin,
Like Dewey said, stick with the Ground Control weight jacker kit rather than going with coil overs. The coil overs really limit the amount of tire that you can fit on the front (which wheels will you be going with?). I think Sam Strano carries the weight jackers and if not he should be able to point you in the right direction. http://www.stranoparts.com/

Tony

Faceman

LS1 + automatic transmission bought , now I`ll be waiting for a month to get it delivered to Poland.
I`m also ordering some parts at Spohn: wonder bar, LSx motor mounts and some stuff. I`m not buying the coilovers yet. Not on the front.

Thanks for the link Tonyc. I`ll check those weight jackers

I`ll keep you updated.

Cheers
Marcin

SDIF

Faceman,

The following combo works. This is the set up on my track day car. I also have a race car with a different set up, but this does work very well. It is inexpensive, simple and effective.

I have driven the following full on race cars on race tires, Porsche 930, Porsche 944, stockcar, 280z, 300z, miata, datsun 510, NASA AIX Camaro.

I have driven and instructed in the following street cars, 911, 944, evo, C5 vette, Shelby, M3s, etc.

My street car handles excellently compared to the above with this combination on the same track. It is easy to drive, has exceptional feel, and is predictable. The car is only horsepower limited. It has more stick and stop than engine to upset it. The best training car I have ever seen. Easier to drive than a properly set up 944.

This works...

The car measures shop floor to fenderwell lip between 26 and 26 3/8 inches on all 4. I have not done the measurments on a dead level surface yet.

I have no noticible bump steer, but have not measured it with a dial gauge. I checked it with pulmb bob and Chalk Lines at drop and compression within the expected travel limits. I do not have any tie rod adjustment for bump steer.

Rear trailing arms are set to make the car push on compression, ( ie. outside trailing arm will get shorter) so as not to get loose from rear steer.

The car is almost on the bumpstops now and may hit on compression. BUT, this has not caused problems.

Alignment
2 5/8 Camber.
5.5 Caster
Zero Toe.

The ball joints and the arms are stock. Front Springs are 9 X 5.5 Afcoils with adjustable spacers. rears are 6 X 5 afcoils with adjustable spacer.

Bushings are Del a Lums front a arms. rear control arms are heims. Panhard Bar has been lowered apromimatly 4 inch and uses heims and is adjustable.

Shock and Struts are Koni Yellow.

Front Sway Bar is the G92 / 1LE
Rear Sway bar is the smallest I could find. Anything bigger and the car will swap ends.

Tires TOYO RA1 275/45/17
Operating Pressure 39 lbs hot
Wheels Vintage Wheel 9.5 X17

Engine Stock w/ t5
Weight 3464.
Brakes are baer kit with pbrs front and rear.
Car has CE subframe connectors

Dewey316

SDIF,

WHat spring rates are you running? The sway bars needed, will depend on the spring rates used in the rear. I actualy run a 24mm rear bar on my car, and it is very neutral for everything, but really really low speed auto-x stuff.

Faceman, You might need some more information on valving, to help pick a matching front strut. You might call/email Jason at unbalanced engineering, and just chat with him about it, and his recomendation. He may tell you, not to bother with the high end stuff, and just to get Koni or Bilsteins revalved. Being in EU, I would be it would be pretty cheap for you to buy and have them revalved by bilstein. I think the spring rates you go with, will determine what your options are. Of course, the higher the spring rate, the more dampening ability in may need. I would think that a couple of phone calls to Jason, or Sam Strano @ Strano Parts, or any of these guys here who normally build f-body's for racing, will be a HUGE ammount of help on picking shock valving.

I checked out the Allegro link, I guess I couldn't really understand it though, lol, and couldn't find an "english" link. I am not sure how import duty works over there, but if you want PM me, I may be willing to help with shipping stuff to you, in return for maybe some help on getting a couple of Audi S2 parts shipped over here (no S2's were actualy brought to the US).

--John

SDIF

Do like Dewey said and call Jason at unballanced engineering. He sold me the pieces for my car.

Faceman

Finally some update:
My factory engine - L03 is out with th700, mechanics struggle with wiring harness now to cross the factory wiring with LS1 wiring. I hope next week the engine and transmission will be inside the engine bay.

Pics:
http://www.vette.com.pl/projekty/camaroLS1-04.jpg
http://www.vette.com.pl/projekty/camaroLS1-03.jpg
http://www.vette.com.pl/projekty/camaroLS1-02.jpg
http://www.vette.com.pl/projekty/camaroLS1-01.jpg

Meanwhile another concept for rear suspension has emerged - the C4 IRS:
take a look: http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=539526

I would very much like to have IRS in my car since I am going to race it on tracks plus I would have something unique. If I find a C4 suspension and rear end at reasonable price I`m going for it.

More update coming soon.

Regards
Marcin

Faceman

The engine and transmission are on the car. Now I am waiting for the Painless stand alone harness. I want the PCM to be in stock 3gen`s ECM location under dashboard on passenger`s side. I also did not want to splice and weld stock LS1 harness so I am going Painless.

After I have the engine work done the car goes to another tuner to have custom stainless steel exhaust made. Then it`s rear end and posi and LS1 brakes. And finally the much awaited suspension.

Pictures:



Cheers
Marcin

jekyll2375

I see Spohn and UMI but I haven't heard any mention of BMR suspension products. Do they have problems??