racerd146

i plan on doing some some upgrade but cant really narrow it down, the goal is a daily driver that handles alot better at stock heigth. i plan on doing a bushing kit but what are the pros and cons of going with poly vs rubber (the rubber ones lasted 126k and are alot cheaper than poly) is it worth upgraded sway bars? what are some good struts and springs? what els should i consider other than rims and tires witch i plan on doing later

scorchmaster

iTrader: (6)

#1 subframe connectors I like Spohns
Poly doesnt give as much as rubber so you can 'feel' the road better
I had 1le sway bars in my car and I really didnt get any body roll, but after market ones will help a lot more, but you pay for them, again I recommend Spohn.
I'd get some agx's and eibach springs if I were you, cheap and they work well for a budget. Might as well just lower the car 1", you'll still have plenty of clearance. Although if you want to keep the stock ride height get some stock replacement springs.

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

Here, this may help:
Click me!
The aftermarket sway bars aren't really much stiffer than the good stockers (except the 25mm rear ones, and they can be too much)
Honestly, if you want the car to handle, replace all the worn bushings. Then get some good tires, SFCs, and KONIs. Then worry about the other stuff. This will be expensive, but you will get ALOT of bang for your buck!!

Celticsfan

iTrader: (1)

i had the same question, i was planning on getting SFC's in teh spring, don't have a huge budget, the KONI's are just replacement shocks correct? And run around $800? I have an 85 TA would the 1LE sway bars be of any help?
thanks

AC

iTrader: (3)

You wont find much in the ways of stock spring height. Most if not all the aftermarket avialability for our rides are lowering springs...anywhere from 1" to 2 or 2.5". Other than that if, you've already discovered poly bushings. They say you transfer alot more vibration with poly bushings over stock but you know...I havent' felt it and every bushing in my car is brand new polyurethane...everything! You'll see a handling improvement installing a tubular panhard rod, solid rear swaybar and 1LE front bar.
Now, if you go ahead and put SFC's on your going to feel almost a night and day difference in handling.

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

Sway bars are a tuning aid. Shocks are what make the suspension work right.

They aren't 'just' replacement shocks, they are a serious upgrade when compared to stock...or just about anything else on the market for their price. They are rebound adjustable, have better comression dampening that anything in the same price range. If you are looking for a single mod with the most bang for the buck (other than tires), this is the way to go. If you buy them from hotpart.com, you can get them from under $670.

You can get a pretty decent set of stock replacement springs from Moog, if you want to go that route. Lowering the center of gravity is important, but it's more important that you have the right spring rates to go with what you want to do with the car and what you personally prefer.

Fair warning, polyurathane on the LCAs isn't your best bet. While polyurathane is great in sway bars, it looses it's shine in places like the LCAs. In the LCAs, the polyurathane can create bind in hard cornering. That's another thread, though. Rod ends work well in the LCAs, but to some they are too harsh. I have a set of LCAs built from parts ordered from the circle track suppliers. Heavy duty rubber bushing on the body and a rod end on the axle. The binding is caused by the fact that the LCAs were designed by the factory to flex from side to side. It needs to because when a car goes through a corner, the body moves to the outside of the turn over in relation to the rear end. The polyurathane fills up the whole space of the mount and doesn't all this flex. The problem with the standard factory rubber is that it is soft enough to allow deflection- the bushing will compress and expand under the forces exerted on the control arms by the weight of the car and the control amrs themselves will actually twist. A good aftermarket rubber end will allow the arm to flex side to side while allowing very little deflection. A rod end does a better job at both, but the ride is somewhat harsh, good ones are kinda expensive ($30+), and the $30 ones will wear out in 20-30k miles on nice roads.
Poly LCA (My car)

Home made rubber/rod end LCA (my car)

Celticsfan

iTrader: (1)

ok i look into those, i forgot to mention, i have new tires/wheels, 15" Eagle Alloys 028 Series, w/ BFG radial ta's 245/?/15....

ya i meant upgrade for the shocks i read up on them before, those will come sometime down the road....

AC you said solid rear bar, as in aftermarket or is there one that came off our cars? Im not sure if mine has a bigger than reg firebird, i think it said i have the suspension pkg, but that was over 20 years ago soo...

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

The stock rear bars are solid and there's really nothing wrong with running GM bars. I have two front and 2 rear. They come in several sizes. I'm not sure of the smallest, but you can get them from 3rd or 4th gens. Some of the GM rear bars are 19, 21, 22, 23, and 24. Spohn makes a 25.4 rear bar, I have one. It's a little too much bar for auto-x. Works pretty well on the highway and back roads though.
Some rear bars are hollow. Such as the Strano 22mm. It has near the same stiffness as the stock 21mm, but is 5lbs lighter due to being hollow. He also sales a 25mm hollow.

Celticsfan

iTrader: (1)

ok thanks for clearing that up, im probably getting ahead of myself anyway, still have to fix my fender ad get new seats and a bunch of other things

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

Just trying to help out fellow 3rd genners!

racerd146

i love the feedback im getting, i dont really wanna lower the car cus i have massive scraping issues getting in and out of my drive way to the point were i had a custom exhaust installed thats dose not stick out past the bumper and is 2 inches higher and 4 inches shorter than stock but if it will make that much improvement i guess i can suffer (or move)

subfames were almost top on the list i forgot to mention them tho

now im no suspension guy would i want to go with stiffer springs? and if i did lower it what would that do to my caster/camber? and how would i make sure the parts i buy work together not fight each other?

and as far as tires i wanna run the same width all the way around whats the widest i can go?

i forgot to mention this setup is for a 3.1

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

With your stock springs, the car is already lowered. That's due to the fact the springs have saged. My car was lowered by about a 1/4" with the Pro-Kit (which lowers over an inch from factory).

If you have scraping issues, a set of stock replacement springs will lift you up some so you won't have that problem. But, if you go with stiffer than stock (V6) springs, you'll be going to V8 springs...which may cause you to set higher than your car did stock. They are designed to hold the heavier front of the V8 at the same height as the lighter V6s, so they have a lower spring rate (softer spring). I'm sure some other members with more experience will be able to help you in this department. You'll have an advantage over V8s in the total weight and weight distribution department, though.

If you lower the car (unless you slam the thing) you can take care of any camber/caster issues with just an allignment. You might need a bump-steer kit (I can show you that if you're interested). I'd reccoment getting a set of aftermarket strut mounts from Spohn or HotPart.com. The stock pieces are most likely shot, and even new ones from AutoZone or where ever aren't that great...or durable. I killed a set of those along with my Monroes in under a year.

My advice to getting the car handling is what I've already said:
1) Replace any worn bushings throught the steering/suspension.
2) Get SFCs.
3) Get good tires, AA traction, good namebrand. How wide depends on what wheel you have; I'm running 275/40ZR17s in the summer and 245/50R16s in the winter.
4) Get some KONIs or Bilsteins; expensive yes, but worth it.

The springs and sway bars are important, but it's pretty well agreed that these things will get you pretty far. If you don't have good shocks, there is almost no point in installing springs, sway bars, or upgrading anything else. The shocks are what controls the suspension. It'd be kinda like swapping in a kick-*** new fuel injected motor....and not installing the computer.

racerd146

dose anybody know what the stock ride height is? what about installing a small cage for overall rigidity? do they make an adjustable
kit cus i plan on putting a bigger stereo and im sure the extra 150 200 lbs would make a diffrence

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

A cage (correctly installed and welded) will stiffen the frame more than SFCs. And, yes, they make a spring kit that offers adjustable ride hight. The kit is $460 with springs and the adjusters. Ground-control-store.com is the site, I think. But, don't go trying that with cheap shocks haha.

racerd146

i was thinking of putting a 8 point cage in but i wanna keep the weight down
this was the kit i was considering http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
its about the same price as sfc's would that stiffen it more than sfc's

the poly kit i found on summit http://store.summitracing.com/partde...30+4294839050+ dont have the torque arm sway bar trailing arms bushings, should i get that kit and get those get those aswell or find another kit?

i also need some seats even tho its not suspension realated but the ones i got are shot

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

Looks like a healthy kit. Should do a good job.

I wouldn't reccomend poly for the LCAs, but the PHB and front a-arms are fine. You could probably just buy them from NAPA and get by cheaper or near the same price.

racerd146

ok ill put that kit on the list of things to get
, but as far as shocks i still havent found a set summit pretty much has only v8 and drag setups and that site you mention only has coil overs that i found

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

The kit I meant was the cage kit, not the bushing kit. You can get that stuff local.

Lemme give you some links....
These are the shocks I'd really reccomend for your car: Click
Most others are cheaper, and a few will work with lowered cars, but none (well, other than shocks that are like $750 per corner) will last or perform like these. If your not lowering, look for Bilstein HDs and if you are lowering try the good KYB or Tokico, but they won't last like the KONIs (year or so at best with others).

Here is the Ground Control kit: Click

racerd146

i think i will go with those koni's i like the adjustable features, but i have to go with lower springs to use those correct?

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

Nope. You can run them with the stock springs, stock replacements, lowering springs, whatever. In fact, you could just install them after you replace the bushings and I think you'd be really surprised.

racerd146

cool i plan on doing the upgrades in the mannor

poly kit
shocks and springs
drilled and slotted brakes
sfc or cage (talking to the guy who is gonna do the welding now so im undecided)
phb or rear lca's (how big of a diffrence would they make over stock)
and maybe a torque arm
rims and tires

am i missing anything/ do it in a diffrent order?

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

After building my car, I'd do it like this:

1) Poly kit/brakes- May sound weird, but I'd do the brakes first with the bushings. With my stock suspension (well, I had a wonder bar and panhardbar) and agressive driving, I smoked (literally) my stock brakes. BAAAD deal.

2) SFCs or cage - The body of the car needs to be stiff to let the suspension work properly.

3) Shocks/springs - The Springs/shocks will be alot of bang for the buck.

4) Wheels/tires - Wheels/tires are great for improving handling, but you won't feel as much of an increase in control (good tires really make for a better handling car, but the car really feels more stable with good shocks/springs).

5) *Sway bars* - when you get this far, you'll know how the car feels and acts. Find out what swaybars you have and then decide what you need. Make sure to keep your stockers. It's never a bad thing to have alot of sway bars. I have 5 and need more.

6) LCAs, PHB, Tq Arm - I think they are a good idea. Helped my car. The PHB, LCAs, torque arm will make the rear feel alot tighter, but not as much as the other stuff.

racerd146

ive herad about those wonder ars are they worth puttin on mysetup?

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

Yeah....I can't beleive I forgot those
I'd put one on with the SFCs. Pretty cheap, and good insurance.

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

I see 91_5.7_TPI is letting us crack into his vast knowledge of suspensions again...

I remember you posting in another thread to replace the strut mounts when the shocks/struts are replaced. Would the Spohn or Hotpart strut mounts be considered camber kits/plates? I was just looking over the rules for autocross in my region and found those would bumo me up a class. Which do you think would be better for autocrossing? I was thinking Spohn because of the extra inch of travel, but I'm not sure.

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

I wouldn't say my knowledge is vast. I've just learned a few things in my time with my car...and made a few mistakes I'd like to help others avoid. No need to be sarcastic.

As for the strut mounts, I think it's a good idea to at least replace them with the struts. Just make sure you buy a good quality part, not the cheap stuff. I upgraded mine to the Hot Part original pieces. From what I've read, both the Spohn and HotPart ones are good pieces. The Spohn have extra travel built in, while the HotPart seem to offer more camber/caster adjustment. Seems like I've managed to forget the Wonder bar and strut mounts in this thread....

Just decide what class you want to run in, and mod your car accordingly. Most start out in F-stock and you can have alot of fun there and gain needed experience. I never really intended to compete in auto-x. The only think we have local is a twice a week event at Bristol Motor Speedway in the spring, summer, and fall. They're isn't any classing, just a 'run what ya brung' kinda thing. That's why my car is probably in a E-Street Prepared or higher class.

racerd146

what about strut braces, flipping through the forums some one said they made a night and day difference, eve tho ive never seen one for the v6 only the v8 tbi motors

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

Some people swear by them, some don't think they do any good. I don't know, but I can't see them hurting anything. Extra rigidity is always a good thing. I may get one when I get my LS1 in.

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

Sorry, didn't mean to click the sarcastic smilie. I mean to click this one:
My laser mouse sometimes jumps around the screen for some reason. It has already jumped at just the right time that I've X'ed out of the forums and some of my homework.


Would the extra inch in the Spohn struts be noticable and would it still clear my hood? Do the Spohn Strut mounts have the same range of adjustability that the stock ones do? Also, would the extra 1/4" negative camber built into the Spohn strut mounts mess aynthing up if I keep the stock camber angle?

racerd146

well since i talked to my welder he wants $200
a point so 1600 to weld the cage in thats outta the question for now, i think ill buy a welder and take a crack at it myself for that price so i think the strut braces if i can find them would help

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

You don't know anyone with a welder? If not, I think you can rent them. It'd be cheaper than buying one anyway... especially if your only gonna use it for sfc and a roll cage.

racerd146

lol yeah hes the only one i know that has a welder but if i did buy one i would get alot of use outta it once i mastered how to weld but the ones i was looking at are the flux core mig/tig units but every welder i know says flux core is junk but there around 300 350 you use it once to weld the cage in or the sfc's it would pay for its self

still searching for strut braces

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

It's ok. I just thought I had said something to upset and didn't realize it. If the mouse is jumpy, go into the mouse settings and turn the sensitivy down a little. I had to do it with my mouse.

I think that the extra camber is just there if you need it, not set. The extra heigh just gives the struts more travel once you lower the car. Very good design feature. They fit under the hood fine as far as I know. You can send Spohn an email...I'm sure they can answer your questions better than me.

I'm trying to find someone who can do a neat job welding around here for my SFC install. I don't care to pay for a good job, but I don't want to have to sale my kidneys to pay for it either.

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

I'll try and get my dad to post. He has been selling welding supplys for a company called Praxair for many many years so he knows his stuff. (I'm sorry if that is against the rules to put a plug in for Praxair).

racerd146

is there any benefit of going with the sphon wonder bar over the used oem peice? sphon has a boxed and a adjustable one for 70 and 103 shipped i beleve and the oem is 50 shipped, i dont see a reason for the adjustment but thats just me

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

If your trying to get performance for a cheap price get a used one. If you have a chunk of change to throw at the car, go for the spohn. The only reason I see to get the adjustable is to eliminate all doubt that the bolt holes might not line up perfectly.
I would go with a used one, but I'm on a stricter budget than probably 80% of the people on the forums... high school sucks.

Celticsfan

iTrader: (1)

haha ya, i hear ya on that one...

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

Any of em are fine. Just spend as little as you have to. I just got a Spohn cause there are NO junk-yards that have anything good around me.

Since you're both on a budget, I also know how to build on-car adjustable, combo ended LCAs and a PHB for right around $300...
Same thing from:
Spohn: $350+ shipping
UMI: $284 + shipping (and you have to take them off the car to adjust) $364.99 + shipping for dual rod end
BMR: $259 for just LCAs

There's a picture of my LCAs up the page a bit. Heavy duty rubber bushing on the body, and a pretty high quality rod end on the axle.

racerd146

yeah im gonna call some junkyards monday, what year car did the wonderbars come on, irocs i think right? also are the bolts the same lenght?

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

Do you happen to have a parts list for that setup? Is it still as strong as the companies you mentioned? Is any machining involved? I autocross so it could come in handy for a quick adjustment or something.

Fortunatly my IROC has a wonderbar so I dont have to worry about that.

BMmonteSS

When it comes right down to it I'll take a bone stock IROC with sticky R-compound tires over a completely modded out IROC with street tires. If you are going for "feel" instead of pure cornering performance then going with all of these stiffer compenents will help.

In reality a good set of tires, good shocks and a well balanced spring rate will get you 95% of the performance. All these other parts being pushed are the last 5% of the equation.

87 formy

Hey Racing Geek, check out SJM manufacturing. They're a sponsor over at LS1Tech. From what I've seen they have quality parts. They are selling a combo of LCA and PHB with rod ends everywhere for 320. On car adjustable, upgraded bolts (for less noise as no spacer is used), and even better yet, all chrome moly. Seems like a decent price to me, only thing is they don't come powder coated/painted.

Also, BMmonteSS, I think everyone will agree tires and shocks are the most important thing, but the other parts are a much higher percent than 5 IMO.

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

Would the 1993-2002 Camaro PHB and LCA work on our thirdgens? For painting, what would you recomend? Would just a couple coats of spray paint be good enough?

87 formy

Yeah, the 93-02 will work. The rear suspension is the same from 82-02. As far as painting goes, I don't think it would see very harsh conditions, maybe spray it with a coat of etching primer and then a couple of coats of paint. One more thing I should probably point out. With the larger bolts that they use, you might have to drill out the wholes a little to get them to fit good.

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

couldn't i just use my stock bolts?

86irocterror

WONDER BAR!!!!!!!!!!!!CHEAP AND MAKE A DIFFERENCE! wonder bar, sways and shocks and struts first if your on a budget and sub frame connectors. i have an oem wonder bar and im sure it works but the spohn non adjustable is like 3 times bigger and what like 60 bucks. i have the adjustable spohn and wont trade it for anything

87 formy

No, that wouldn't be a good idea. It needs to be a nice tight fit with the rod end. Umi uses a spacer to make it fit with the stock bolt, sjm uses a larger bolt.

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

Could I get just the spacer from UMI or could I even make my own?

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

UMI or Herron Performance offers them. I need to either drill out my bolt holes and install the correct bolts or get the correct spacers. Mine have about a 1/16 or so play in them...heh.

Jason89RS

iTrader: (2)

Instead of going rubber or poly bushings on the front control arms, you have a third option. Global West DEL-A-LUM bushings. I guess they really don't fall into the budget category though, since they are about 3x the price of poly but are another option.

For the most part I agree with 91_5.7_TPI, about the order of upgrades, but here is the order I'd do the upgrades in.

1) SFC connectors These are stand alone parts (by stand alone I mean you won't have to remove and then reinstall later for future upgrades.) They will tie your chassis together for future upgrades and make a stiffer platform.

2) Brakes - You'll probably be driving the car harder after the upgrades, so you'll want these in top shape.

3) Rebuild the front steering system including ball joints. While you have the Control arms off to remove the ball joints have the bushing replaced with either rubber, poly or del-a-lum bushings. You could replace the springs now while you have the control arms apart or wait till you have more funds. Doing all of this at once will keep you from having to take things apart multiple times.

4) Shocks/springs - The Springs/shocks this is where you'll feel a huge difference. If you are getting lowering spings you'll want to get an adjustable panhard bar (PHB) as well. This will allow you to recenter the rearend after lowering.

5) Wonderbar (Disregard if your car came with one) - This will tie the front frame rails together and keep the area by the steering box from cracking. With upgraded suspension you will more than likely be driving more "spirited" and extra reinforcement will help.

6) Wheels/tires - Wheels/tires are great for improving handling, but you won't feel as much of an increase in control (good tires really make for a better handling car, but the car really feels more stable with good shocks/springs and rebuilt steering).

7) *Sway bars* (if your car didn't come with one) - when you get this far, you'll know how the car feels and acts. Find out what swaybars you have and then decide what you need. Make sure to keep your stockers. It's never a bad thing to have alot of sway bars. I have 5 and need more.

8) LCAs, PHB, Tq Arm - I think they are a good idea. Helped my car. The PHB, LCAs, torque arm will make the rear feel alot tighter, but not as much as the other stuff.

I was looking at the coleman racing catalog and can find everything to build the adjustable LCA's except for the end for the rubber bushing. Can you enlighten me to where I can pick up on of those?