Josh R

iTrader: (1)

My friend has a 2001 Passat, and says that it handles better than my Iroc-Z. I know Irocs could pull .92 g's and his car can only do .81 or around there. Do Irocs still hold there own when it comes to handling vs. new cars?

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Depends, I'd guess. If your IROC is still equipped with 20+ year-old rubber bushings, springs, struts and stocks, and perhaps inadequate tires, the car isn't going to do .92. Replace those things and you'll note a difference--so will your friend.

JamesC

Josh R

iTrader: (1)

i was talking to someone and they said that the IROC will hold a turn faster and longer, but the passat can probably go from turn to turn a little easier because its lighter and VW's have always been known for their handling. I guess i can agree with that. The IROCs are kinda big and heavy. If anyone else has input on the topic please let me know.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (15)

you should re-do your suspension anyway, its old. Ive found that these old f-bodies handle well, and ive thrown mine around quite a bit and i find it to be very stable, so long as you can keep your foot out of the gas

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

you should go to an auto x and compare times (assuming you are both competent drivers)

The idea that Thirdgen F bodies handle poorly is a common misconception among euro snobs. They also seem to think every German car made is a good performer in the turns.

If your suspension was at least at stock (new) specs you should kill him. This is assuming you have the top tier suspension components to start with. You won't pull .92 gs on the 15" iroc wheels. (I forgot what year they went to 16x8) Unfortunately the number of F bodies on the road with new suspension components instead of worn out ones is small.

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

Rebuild the suspension with new bushings and (with research) replace certain componets and I feel that you will have a superior handling car.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i got new shocks/springs/lca's/torque arm/panhard bar, wonderbar, etc and mostly new rear bushings as those parts came with new stuff. The car scares me in turns. it will hold them as hard as you want to push it, as long as you dont try to accelerate out, it will spin tire and start fishing. i think its just that my tires are worn. New tires should grip better but the car is just too torquey for those small meats

the car is begging for a front suspension rebuild and new bushings up front tho. the steering is kinda sloppy and quick back to back maneuvers, the car doesnt like it.

92BLKL98

Rebuild that 15+ year old suspension and you will surprise yourself and more than a few late model owners. Use premium parts and poly bushings. If possible and money alows rebuild both front and rearends. Use adjustable components so you can dial in your suspension. Buy good tires. I have given lessons to a few cocky import owners. These cars can definitely handle but like anything else their parts wear out and need TLC. And, most importantly learn your car and how to drive it.

92droptopws6

iTrader: (10)

the absolute best cornering car i have EVER owned!
add more HP and you will have those porshe,ferrari and Lambo owners freakin out

green92

I have to agree with all that has been said so far. Our cars can burn the road up if your smart and maintain them properly. I just recently rebuilt my front end and upgraded the springs to eibach's all the way around and put lakewood lower arms out back the only 2 things im missing are an adjustable panhard rod and a wonderbar (never knew that the wonderbar existed till i got on here). But my car made a drastic change when i did all this to it.

coolram62

iTrader: (2)

You will notice a very nice difference once you install the front steering brace(aka wonderbar).At least it did to me on my '83 Z28.The benefits that come with it(especially releaving stress on the frame at the steering box mounts) every F-body should have come with it from the factory.

86NiteRider

iTrader: (10)

When you add the wonderbar you will notice an improvement, especially if you have a car that twist a lot like the T Top cars.

I love our handling. I too have added many new or updated parts to my suspension and I love the handling. When I drive my sons 2006 Mustang I pend the whole time wishing I was driving my Camaros.

Josh R

iTrader: (1)

yeah. I thought my car would handle better. I just put new tires on it and i have the 16x8 stock rims. The car only has 47,000 miles on it, all though it was sitting for most of those years. The bushings are probably dried out. Does lowering our cars do a lot? I want to get airbags, so i can raise it and lower when i want. I would put lowering springs on it but i like these cars higher up, and where i live i would bottom out on everything.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

tires and stiff suspension are what you need.
Here are a couple of images from my first try with real race rubber.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

damn that thing is turning hard lol

OkanaganIroc

I don't know much about Imports but when I auto crossed my Iroc I was running the course with the same times as simular year's corvettes. Only when the later years cars came on the track with their tractiopn control and anti-lock brakes did they run faster.
I'd have to agree with Josh R though. the weight difference between the cars does make a difference in their ability to throw themselves into a corner.

Josh R

iTrader: (1)

yeah, thats why i was wondering if having even a lower than stock stance would reduce the tendency for IROCs to "sit" on corners.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

lowering helps...it lowers the center of gravity which eliminates body roll and such.

Tobias05

I've got an 87 Sport coupe, with iroc springs, kyb gr-2 shocks/struts, 36MM hollow front swaybar, poly endlinks front/back, wonderbar, sfcs, tubular lcas, relocation brackets, slp zr1s w/ kumho 711's, quick ratio steering box, and new centerlink, tie rods, idler arm.

working on the ragjoint as we speak.

she handles amazingly, and i didn't end up spending a lot of cash.

19doug90

stock the irocs are around .78 on the skidpad, however install subframe connectors and it jumps to around .92

obviously if you race a tiny little Vdub on a really small auto cross course he would win, tight cornering it just makes sense that a smaller car will have the advantage.

but open up a little more space between the cones, or for that matter get out on an actual race track, that little german piece of junk wont touch a camaro when it comes to high speed cornering

and if you want to go even better as everyone already mentioned, poly bushings all around, some eibach sportlines, good shocks, LCA's and relocation brackets, panhard rod and a wonderbar if your car didnt come with one. Youll be amazed what the car can do

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Poly all around is a no no for cornering. too much bind.

19doug90

where do you reccomend not using poly?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

LCA's on both ends. Use a rod end on one end to eliminate the bind.
The panhard rod has much less tendancy to bind.

I actually finally experienced bind a little while ago, accelerating onto an on ramp, there's a slight bump that only one side of my car feels - hit the bump and it KICKS the rear around like a fishtail, but I wasn't on the gas hard enough for that. It's a strange feeling. I have boxed LCA's with poly/poly. I'll be swapping to aluminum tubular with rod ends on both sidese, and delrin reducers instead.

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

I wouldn't do Sportlines...they aren't a spring for handling. The Pro-Kit isn't much better, but the Sportline is WAY too soft for the ride height.
And yes, all poly isn't a good idea in a cornering car. It binds in cornering as described above (experienced it quiet a few times).

Here is a link to the LCAs I made to negate the binding of poly and the rough ride of dual rod ends.

SDIF

Put 36 psi in front tires and 28 in the rear.

Then come back and tell us how it turns.

92BLKL98

My LCA's have poly bushings on the chassis end and spherical bearings on the axle end. I have not experienced any problems with binding with this design LCA. My PHB has poly on both ends. I use the Spohn Torque Arm with spherical bearings on each end. My front end it all poly, if I rebuild the front end again I want to use a tubular "K" member and "A" arms with del-a-lum bushings and possibly a coil over kit. The suspension is noisy at low speeds but to me it is not a problem. The suspension is predictable and it feels good to me. When I rebuilt it two years ago I used all MOOG problem solver components and I was really impressed with the Hotchkis tie rod sleeves, awsome. Install some subframe connectors they help a lot. A wonder bar and strut tower brace is good. When you do these mods you add some weight but it is worth it. Added weight comes from the wonder bar, STB, SFC's, The Spohn T/A and cross member, and heavy duty parts but you can cut weight in other areas to compensate.

Josh R

iTrader: (1)

wait, it says that the irocs pulled .92g's. Was that with or without subframe connectors?

compuwiz1937

iTrader: (17)

The suspension setup on these cars is so simple yet so effective. Just because of the suspension work I've done, even though it has a V6, my car is some hellacious fun to drive. So far I've got: V6 1" drop springs (I can't remember the brand, I think it starts with an "I"), KYB GR2 struts, KYB Gas-A-Just shocks, TDS Wonderbar, 24mm rear sway bar, 36mm front sway bar, and 275/40/17 BFG rubber. I've got some UMI SFCs waiting to be installed too. I also want to get a new rag joint. Poly bushings will come when I eventually do an LS1 swap with a tubular k-member and a-arms, not sure about the rears though.

19doug90

i read a chevy high performance article once that said its like .78 from the factory, and then they installed sfc's and it went up to .92

our cars are so soft that from the factory the whole car twists instead of the suspension actually being able to do its job. Tighten the car up and the suspension can actually be effective

on a side note our cars also turn about .04 better to the left then to the right

atc3434

iTrader: (4)

The car in my signature would outhandle a Passat w/o breaking a sweat. So would any halfway maintained IROC car w/ decent rubber. Whoever mentioned the smaller cars auto-x so much better is right, but only to a point, there are plenty of bigger, rwd cars that can auto-x very well, third gen Camaro's and Corvettes being two of the big ones, the rwd Nissans also handle very well. The 3rd gen is supposedly a better handling car than the later 4th and 5th gen Camaros, a fact which even most 4th and 5th gen owners will agree with. Take a car like the 350Z, an decently built suspension on a 3rd gen can be just as much car from a handling perspective as that car is capable of.

antman89iroc

Did I miss something? By 5 gen do you mean 98+ LS1?

green92

Im with you antman, I thought all 4th gen covered 93 up ive never heard of 98 up beign a 5th gen

Rayvan

I have a C&D from 1989 where they tested a Firbird Formula WS6 at .89 G

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

4th Gens run from 93-02. The 5th gens are the new cars that are going on sale in 09.

I need to get SFCs for my car. And it sucks that the car turns better to the left than the right....how many Interstate exits exit to the left.

atc3434

iTrader: (4)

I am making assumptions about the 5th gen, 2009 model. I'm assuming while being a reasonable handling car, it will be bigger, and heavier, much like the GTO on maybe a little less wheelbase. The LT1-LS1's would be 4th gens (to me).

92rs85berlintta

iTrader: (1)

being a huge VW fan and owning a few I can say with confidence a luxury car called a passat has nothing on a fresh set of bushing in a Z. Luxury hell yea, race car hell no. Passats are wide, thats all they have going for them in that dept.

Josh R

iTrader: (1)

Just to add to this thread. My friend wrecked is Passat taking a turn to fast. It understeered and went straight into a tree. My friends a relatively good driver to. So much for German Engineering.

Now hes got an Acura RSX Type-S. I hoping to out handle that car. Idk though cause its a darn tight ride.

mike_c

iTrader: (13)

There's some irony for you.

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

You'll be able to do it. Just do the right mods and don't cheap out. Or, you could buy my car.

Josh R

iTrader: (1)

haha I would if i could afford it. Your car is damn nice. I like the 91-92 lowered but not my style lowered (85-90), which is a bummer cause i don't want to put the newer ground effects on. Im gonna do everything i can from the stock ride height. Mostly frame stiffening upgrades and bushings.

Speaking of frames, should i do inner SFC and outer SFC??? I was considering it, i want my car to be rock solid. I was going to also try and find a strut bar and new wonderbar.

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

Thank you. I wish I didn't have as much in it as I do. I can never sale the thing, I'd loose my hiney... especially after I finish the LS1 swap.

You can do plenty from the stock ride height. Just replace the bushings/steering linkages, get some Moog IROC replacement springs, a good set of shocks, some sticky tires, SFCs, wonder bar, upgrade the sway bars ( I reccomend getting a selection of GM bars), etc.
I have a set of Spohn SFCs, just haven't installed them yet. I've not heard anything bad about them, but some people prefer other brands. To my thinking, the outer SFC would offer more stiffness for the car.

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

I'm surprised to see this thread is still going after seeing how old it is. Anyway, I would think that even with 15+ year old bushings you could take a Passat.

I plan on replacing most bushings in the front of my IROC with poly and swapping in some koni yellows and some race rubber (leaning towards Kuhmo)for the coming autox season. I came in 9th out of about 200 people for the stock class in my region so I think I faired well in my bone stock IROC and my dads dodge dakota sport (used for first half of season because I didnt have my car yet... I'm still 16).

--------------------
A little off topic but with 6 year old tires (still origanal from factory) and stock everything on my dads truck, I still experianced some major body roll...

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

Nice job coming in 9th, especially with a stock car.
With all my mods, I blew majorly last time I auto-x. I'd only done it once before and my rear bar (the 25) caused major throttle-oversteer. That kinda killed the times. I still was about 3 or 4 seconds slower than the fastest car there, and they run all the time. The course is open every Tuesday and Thursday during the summer along with the drag strip. I need to swap out the 25mm rear bar for a 24 or 21 and give it another go... after some more practice.

stingerssx

I don't mean to be negative, but from the factory, a non-performance suspension (IE not WS6 or 1LE) pulled .86g where a fourth gen pulled .88g with stock suspension. WS6 pulled .89g for the third gen. Fourth gen WS6 was .92g. But with a little work, (stiffer sway bars, wonder bar, lower profile tires, and an alignment) the third gen WS6 could do 1.0g. Adding struts & shocks, LCA's, urathane bushings, larger wheels and lowering it would bring you around .121g.

I can't say that the stiffer the spring the better. Your friend with the Passat will have a better ride quality and being able to handle pretty well due to progressive rate springs. It will have more initial body roll than your Iroc, but having the softer springs keeps the tire in contact with the road. If you have a perfectly flat, tight turn track (Autocross) then the stiffer spring the better. But streets in real life are not smooth. This is what the suspension was created for.

So to keep the tire touching the ground, you want a firm spring, but not to stiff. My Formula has Eibachs with Tokico Illuminas and it's too stiff for the street. And on the freeway, sometimes the back come out. The 11O Pasadena freeway here is an old tight freeway (the first in the nation) so it was made for a top speed of about 50mph. I can almost go faster in my wifes Civic than in my bird. But we also have a mountain road called Angeles Crest Hwy that connects L.A. to Palmdale. On that road, I can go pretty fast. Almost keep up with the crotch rockets, but they still spank me. It gets pretty scarry at 100mph around a turn, then hitting a small dip.

luke4907

iTrader: (5)

I'd recommend not driving anywhere within 50 miles of your friend while he's driving. I'd also stay out of any vehicles where he's behind the driver seat.

atc3434

iTrader: (4)

I have a hard time believing that one... I can't see a Civic out-handling a stock f-body, let alone one with respectable suspension upgrades... The Civic probably feels more stable, but I'm sure the Bird is actually able to corner signifigantly quicker. Althought, you didn't mention the rubber you're running... crappy tires w/ an aggresive suspension are a sure ticket to instability when the limits are tested.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

According the the Camaro White Book, for what it's worth, the IROC in 85 "was capable of .92g's in skidpad tests and seven-second 0-60 times, all in showroom trim."

JamesC

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

there was an article in CHP they upgraded a IROC with all the suspenion upgrades. poly, strut brace, Sub frames, blisten shocks, hotckins springs, LCA, and panhard rod. cant remember of tq arm. but they put on some 16x9's and this thing outhandled, ferrarri, porshe, new ZO6's, masserartii, s2000, etc it wooped them in shalom, skidpad, and g's. i think it pulled over 1.00 G in the turns. they said it was freaky how this thing dominated.

ive got almost everything done in my SIG, except, strut brace and tq arm(tq arm shorty jegster have goin in with new motor and custom strut brace. and 6 pt cage) and ive outhandled BMW's and mercedes AMG's a few times. as said before just dont gas it comin out of the corners or ur @ss end will swing around. prob with out cars is that they are light in the rear, and TPIs are tq lil b@stards

my car is the best handling car ive been in including my bros 68 vette that has a 30,000$ suspension top notch.

v10viper04

what exactly is diff in an IROC setup suspension compared to an RS? And waht is the wonderbar? any pics of it? is it like a strong replacement for a swaybar?

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

The Wonderbar reinforces the steering box area and is a separate piece from the sway. Here's an after market version (in black):

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...what-36mm2.jpg

JamesC