online170

Found out some bad news about my car, aparently the trans x-member area is so rotten that it falls off in the guy's hands. Ill attach a pic, you can judge for yourself. Ill also attach a pic of the floors above, and why i was SO SHOCKED!!!

Long Story short, i havent asessed the problem completely yet because i havent seen the car just yet since it was at this guy's place that i was paying to install my new driveline. (Im a university student, pressed for time). So im preparing for the worst. I have a parts 88 camaro, the subframe appears to be solid, how difficult would it be to "swap" the two sub frames? These are both bone stock cars, both came with 2.8L V6s, but my berlinetta (good car, bad frame) will be getting a 350.

Im looking for tips and heads up about every aspect of this. ie:, what do i need to unbolt, cut, weld, hammer, etc....

I assume there are some bolts holding the frame to the body, possbly some welds. I will probably need to remove the suspension, and brake components, as well as any fuel, lines and hoses.

And then reconnect them for installation. What am i missing?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

There's no "frame", and no "subframe". Nothing you can unbolt and re-bolt.

Looks to me, it's time to throw that car in the trash, and concentrate your efforts on some other one. That one is used up.

If your other chassis is free of rust, I'd recommend taking everything worthwhile off of the rusted-out one, and moving it to the good one, before you throw the rusted one away. It makes no sense to go the other way.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Look in the fabrication section, for comp788's thread on the silverstate project. He replaced those trans tunnel rails. It's not easy, or worthwhile, if you have another car to use. I'd just swap to your 2nd vehicle, if it's any better. Unless this car has some sentimental value or something.

Shagwell

There is no real subframe to our cars. It's stamped steel, all formed into/with the body. What you're talking about is completely cutting the front end off the car and welding in the complete front half of the other car. Unless you're really mechanically inclined, or have a lot of money, this is not a good idea.

Our cars are basically a monique chassis(spelling). Everything supports everything. There are no seperate subframes, the entire body is the support. The front "subframe" is everything except the skin of the fenders. The wheel wells, the strut support/impact support, the lower "frame" rails, the core support, and it is all built in with the firewall, the cowl, the pillars, the roof, etc. If you know what you're doing you could cut the "frame" rails loose from the floor, cut the wheel wells and upper support loose from the firewall/cowl and re-square and re-weld the new back in place, but it would take more work than the value of the car.

- Or you could look into having a tube chassis built.......it'd probably cost less in the long run.

online170

Ouch, i just assumed they were removable, judging from the 1st and second gens. yes this car has alot of sentimental value, its my first car. Ive been through a few and i still have this one. Well the good thing is, this car has incredibly low mileage 143000 KMS, and other than this recent development, it has always been really rust free and solid to my knowledge. I just spoke with the guy who was working on it a minute ago, he made it sound alot worse than it was, its not complete mush (the frame), he said when he went at it with the impact gun, to remove the current x-member, he could tell it wasnt gonna stand up to much driving, especially with a 350. According to his description, my frame rails, around the x-member about 4-8 inches on either side of the x-member are done, they should be fixed or the car junked. The rest of it is solid though.

I wish i wish my parts car was worth while, there is hardly a floor to speak of.

Ok, well i cant junk this car, its my first car, and i have alot of $ invested in it for a student. (about $1500, not including the motor or trans). I consider myself competent in mechanical work, but i lack experience. i do know a few really talented guys in the body work business, would it be recommended to just cut out to rotten frame, and weld some new "frame rails" in? If its possible, what kind of $$$ would you guys estimate??

I guess theres not alot of good news past this point, this really sucks. But i appreciate all you folks chiming in, knowledge is power these days.

AlkyIROC

Yes, if it was like a first and second gen, you could easily unbolt and remove it but as mentioned above, it's all part of the car. The entire body is one piece of multiple layer of sheet metal. Not the greatest platform for any kind of performance enhancements.

When I was looking for a car to make into a race car, I wanted something with as little rust as possible and the one I found was rust free. I paid more than I planned but if I had to spend money to do rust repairs, I probably would have spent more.

A rusted out third gen isn't worth anything because it will cost more to do repairs than the car is worth. Unless you can do all the work yourself saving labor costs, it's cheaper to just buy another car with less rust.

If it's just the front frame rails where the tranny crossmember attach to, any good chassis shop should be able to fab up some sort of replacement. You're not going to find any "stock replacement" parts to do the repair unless you cut them off a car that's in better condition. Maybe one that's been wrecked in an accident.

online170

Im bringing it into my garage tommorow night, im gonna get a closer look at it, my dad suggested, if the guy has doubts about the frame rail, dont bother thinking about puting it on the road. So ill start stripping it down, its only a berlinetta, but all the panels are perfect, and as you can see in the pix above so are the floors. Gonna see if i can get something of the investment out, that i put in. The driveline is gonna stay sealed in my garage, until something "worthy" comes along. Sad day for me.

Shagwell

from the pics, it doesn't look as though much is truely rotted. It coud easily be just surface rust. If you're guy doesn't deal with 3rd gen regularily, he might think that since the metal is thin/highly flexible that it rotted out. The "frame" rails in these cars are the same material that the fender/body skin is made out of...next to nothing. That's why most everyone reccomends subframe connectors as a first mod.

online170

Before taking drastic action to junk the car, i ill strip the fram rails and surrounding area, of any undercoating and paint, to bare metal, and get a "second opinion". Theres some surface rust on the car from standing for 3 or 4 years, but i took good care of it, which is why i was shocked. Other than that the car is very rust free.

dave-92gta

iTrader: (1)

yea i know what your thinking, im 17 and my first car was a thirdgen, a 92. i love it so much, anywho im sorry to say, my dad did some front end work on his 66 stang, and i know its not the same as our third gens, but he told me it was very costly and time consuming. sorrt to say, and i know its a low blow to see your car like this, but just transfer to your better car. its cheeper. but Shagwell could be right, you have it all apart right, maybe pay someone to sandblast the bottom of your car fi you can do it, then you will really see wahts rotten

V8Rumble

iTrader: (2)

Definitely take a look at it yourself before making any decisions. If it's that rusted, you won't have too much difficulty seeing the problem yourself.

Sometimes it won't be really apparent, but poking a screwdriver into the affected area will give you an idea of how strong the metal is.

If it really is that bad, then like the others have said, there's not a whole lot that can be done, short of buying/fabbing up a tube chassis & new floorpans - which is just a little bit of work...

Good luck.

online170

Well its in my garage, i got a good look at it today. I dont have a cam, or id post some pix. The actual part where the cross member bolts on is solid, but a few inches towards the front of the car is totally shot. Just rust everywhere, the bottom part of the frame rails just fell off and you can stick your hand up into the rails. The rest of the car is ok though. So if any of you guys need some quality parts, fenders, quarters, whatever, let me know. The stripping begins today.

online170

Ok time to revive this thread. I just went out to look at a possible prospect for my new car. Car in question is a 1987 Firebird Formula. In my opinion, very clean car, and relatively well taken care of. The guy dropped in a $5k motor, and some mixed internals TH350 that aparently has 4 gears. The trans IS included in the car, but not installed.

I LOVED the way this car drove, the way it idles, the way it sounds, is so smooth and quiet, you wouldnt even know its a carbed car. You only notice at a stop light when the car is in gear, and it kinda shakes side to side. He told me the car still has some bugs in it, and isnt running at it's best (clearly his standards are higher than mine). However, his frame rails are also rusty in a couple spots. The have been very well undercoated, but that was after the rust had begun. So the the location where the tranny X-member bolts on is slightly rusty. He said, if i relocated the bolts, or evern welded in a collar with frame connectors, it will be solid.

With the torque this car puts out, and the way it shifts, its obvious its not that soft, but he said the problem will become more severe if left untouched in a couple of years.

SHOULD I BUY THE CAR???

Basically, how hard would it be to "reinforce" a frame rail, that is only rusty around the bolts? Like mentioned above i was thinking, a "collar" to go over the rails, kind of like boxing in a frame, and then put in some frame connectors??? Heres some pix.

(the pix of the frame rails, are of MY (camaro) car, not his(firebird), this is why im junking it).

online170

Forgot to mention, Options, power locs,power windows, power steering, original radio, T-tops, 3 Spoke Steering wheels, no dents, straight car. Doors close perfect, original t-top covers are there and the roll up cover thing in the back.

It also has some rust development under where the strut towers mount. Only on underside, but not on the top.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I would not buy that car. I don't think I'd even want it for free, except maybe for any part it might have that are useful.

The problem with rust is, it starts from the inside; by the time you see it, it has already gone all the way through. Plus, most of what's structurally important about one of these cars, you can't see; if it's rusted where you CAN see it, then all bets are off as to what condition it might be in where you CAN'T see it.

That car looks to me like it's garbage. Time to throw it in the trash and start over.

If it has "sentimental value", then put it on a pedestal somewhere and go look at it once in a while. But get some other car to drive.

online170

SUBFRAME PIC == MY JUNK CAR, NICE MOTOR PIC == NOT MY CAR.

Just to clear that up. My car is going to junk, the one with the ugly frame rails. The car with the nice engine is in MUCH nicer shape. It has been stabbed with a screw driver everywhere underneath, and is solid, but it does have rust around the x-member bolts. Not soft yet, but gettin there. Is it worth it to fix small amount of rust like that?

Shagwell

If it's just around the bolts and the metal out and around the affected area is indeed in good shape, then it's deffinitely fixable. - As for the $5k motor, one of the 1st things to know is what heads are on it. If they're not decent aftermarket heads, then it's not that powerful of a motor. I'm saying this because they appear to be old-school factory heads. - Also, a decent sized cam will have an idle lope, be it carb or efi. My carb runs and drives as good as most decent tuned efi's.

As for yours, if the rest is in really good shape, someone with the know-how could cut into it and see exactly how bad it is and possibly save it. The thing is that unless a person could do it themselves it would likely cost more than a replacement.

online170

Thanks Shagwell. Heres a better picture of the motor. Yes i realize that heads are important, but this motor has some serious machine work done to it. The heads have been worked over, flow benched, valve job, etc etc... It was built by a very reputable builder. He is employed with mining equipment maintenance etc... And the guy has built many offroad monsters. Hes the one who also built the trick transmission. So i think they are old school, but they have been worked over. As for compression, i think its in the 10's but just by cranking, its not as high as some other cars ive heard. In anycase, the motor is incredible restricted right now, its running on a stock exhaust, with cats and all, and stock carb and intake. And still we had to be careful driving, the car will smoke the tires even if the car is at cruising at 40-50 km/h. I was just impressed with this engine, because i havent had too good experience with the cars ive owned before. They were always out of tuning, or timing, and i couldnt get it right. This engine seemed to have the upper hand on that. But thanks for the input.

As for the sheet metal, thats the answer i was hoping to get. He has alot of oil sprayed along the rails. He even invited me to come on a warmer day, and stab around with a screw-driver (as he did before he bought the car). Its all solid, but the rust around the bolts is still there.

AlkyIROC

Unibody rust can be repaired but it's only worth it for a car that's actually worth some money. Third gens don't have a high resale value unless they're still in mint condition. Fixing all the rust is only a short term repair. It will still continue to rust and years down the road, you'll have to do it all over again or never drive it. Unless the car is almost free, it's not worth it to fix it up. As mentioned above, with that much rust, it's a parts car.

online170

Oh definately, i totally realize that. The guy is giving me a good deal on the car, i will basically be buying the engine, and he made sure i knew that. Its in ALOT better shape than other cars ive seen, but hes a careful guy and made sure i knew what i was getting into. If i do go for this car, i wont be spending a cent on the body, but it has to last a couple of years with some corrosion prevention. Im a student, so i dont have alot of money or time, but i would like to atleast drive the thing for a little while.

matt_p

Get the actual specs on the engine. The formula looks to be a pretty nice car. A little bit of rust on the formula can be cut out and a patch of sheet metal welded in. No big deal there.

online170

Ok i bought the car. Im picking it up after my exams end. Gonna drive it home. Stupid ottawa weather has alot of salt put down on the roads. So before it goes into storage, its getting the underbody washed, and a special oil sprayed all underneath, and in the doors, seams where-ever i can get it. Ill be sure to shoot some pix while it do that.

A|I had another thought. I basically plan to drive this car into the ground, so i was thinking, i should pull off the tranny x-member, treat the rust, re-drill and thread the holes to a bigger size, then bolt on the x-member and weld it in place. Because the Frame railes are solid and rust free, except for around the bolts. Ill post some pix, you'll see what i mean.

Azeem

AlkyIROC

The tranny crossmember mounts are nuts spot welded to the inside of the sheetmetal subframe. Chances are if you try to drill them larger, they're just going to break off.

online170

They spot welded the threads on the bolt itself inside the frame rails? Or they spot welded some kind of thread sleeve into there? Im a little confused with your description, cuz wouldnt you have to spot weld each time you took those bolts off?

I removed an x-member from a parts camaro a few weeks ago, other than some elbow grease needed, it came out with relative ease.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

they're little lumps of excess material on the inside of the frame rails, which are tapped. It's common that when people remove the tranny-xmember bolts, the bolts break off, etc.
The threads are like cheese, very soft.
If you drill them oversize, you don' have much material left. I drilled mine oversize, then ended up putting some 3/8" NC x1" bolts, and dropped them from the inside of the frame, so it's like studs coming out downwards. Then nuts hold the crossmember in place. I used an extending magnet, and some fiddling, to get the bolts into place, but it works well now.

online170

Hmm i may go that route. Certainly sounds cheaper to do. But im thinking it would be easiest just to kill the rust and just WELD the x-member in place. Will cover more area on the frame rail and give a stronger support dont you think? I dont particularly have high regard for the body, so it wouldnt matter.

Btw Sonix, my camaro project went to hell, but this firebird had the tunnel-ram setup swapped out and a regular q-jet installed to save on fuel. So, im gonna be screwing around with the q-jet stuff you taught me, ill let you know how it goes. Gonna go shopping for some metering rods, springs and a rebuild kit next week.