ChevyRacer

Ok first I know our cars because of weight differences can’t handle that well. But hey, what kind of advances can we do to our thirdgens to increase overall handling.

From beginner mods, to extreme mods. Can we make a list?

I'll go first,
-Stronger Side Wall Tires
-Sub Frame Connectors (More rigidity)
-Roll Cage (adds much needed chassis rigidity)
-Lowering Springs (add to center of gravity as well as stiffer suspension)
-Shocks and Struts (they add stiffness to the suspension as well)



I'm blacking out right now, but what else really needs to be done to maximize handling ability in our cars?

TWICEtheRICE

Bigger Sway Bars
Sticky Tires
New Bushings all over (not rubber)

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

Well, along those same lines as chassis rigidity...
- SFC's and Cage that you mentioned
- Seam welding chassis
- Strut tower brace
- Wonder bar

- Caster/camber plates

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

If you're lowering it:

weld-in reallocation brackets (hopefully prevent axle hop and increase grabbing)
adjustable panhard bar (allow you to center the rear after lowering the body)
new lower control arms

MrDude_1

for bracing:

SFCs or a rollbar
STB
wonderbar


other then bracing:
good tires
good shocks
stiffer springs
poly bushings
alignment
upper strut plate that uses bearings.
rebuild steering linkage
adjust/rebuild steering box

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

If you wanted to go all out road racing style use spherical rod ends for everything possible. You'll get more noise (clanking) and more wear (they'll need to be replaced or checked every 2 to 3 years at the very least), but they shouldn't bind as much. I have one on my tq arm and when it hits you eventually know it.

CrazyHawaiian

Good list so far, add in correcting geometry after changing ride height.

RTFC

If you want to outhandle a stock ZO6 you are going to have to buy and build a V6. A V8 will not do it due to weight bias even with an all aluminum LS1 motor- still heavier and some motor weight is still in front of the front wheels where as the V6 is behind.

smokeycamaro51

Yea good list so far. Stick with the V-8. It'll allow more driveability. Not too mention the sound. But lets go into moving some stuff around. Put the battery where the spare tire should go. And put it in a metal box and insulate it. Battery acid is bad stuff i hear.
Oh and pull the AC unit out, i say this because i have a convertible. Its kinda a waste of space for me.
I'm not totally sure you would want the spherical rod ends because on the rear end you kinda want some give to give the back end some grip. I mean its light enough back there. Start off as well with a fiberglass hood. Find light weight wheels and possibly alluminum control arms (although i don't think i've seen em) Gotta try and pull out all the unsprung weight we can. Oh yea and to out handle a Zo6 a lot of it has to do with the loose nut behind the wheel. Make imrovements there and your good.

ME Leigh

To get the kind performance to even get close to a 06 ZO6 your going to need to build the car to race car specs, using race car parts, ie. IROC, players, SCCA...

MrDude_1

eh, i'll agree to that if you intend to replace the springs and everything.... but even though 1/4 of the motor is infront of the wheels(counting the surp belt system), it did knock 150+lbs off the nose of the car compared to stock for me.

when i got my v6 car, i did notice it turned a whole lot easier then the v8s ive been driving... but my LS1 car turns better then it.... and the LS1 car doesnt even have the front swaybar on yet... yet it turns very very flat. im thinking its because i have new MOOG front springs, so they're not saggy or weak at all, combined with the 150lbs off the nose.

now if he wanted to make it PERFORM like the z06, and not just handle like one, he should be looking at something like the LS1..

RTFC

Aren't you one of the local So. Cal V8 guys I just beat the pants off of in my V6?

Thats what I thought.

Again, you want a 3rd gen to out handle a ZO6, you'll definately want to listen to me then- trust me.

Lets put it this way, If I drove my V6, then "I" drove a 'stock' Z06 (same *nut* as you will) I can run faster in my V6 on an autocross course given they are both on street tires or both on race tires.

And remember everyone- this is my wifes car that is setup for daily driving with *all* the creature comforts in the car (A/C, Cruise control, etc). It also had hard 2 1/2 year old worn tires on it at the time we raced AND I never walked to course beforehand to memorise it or I would have been even quicker.

Even the local so called professional instructors driving several of the other guys V8 cars could only best the track in the 66.xxx range with many many practice runs already having the course perfected- I ran a 63.3 my second run

ME Leigh

Ok, Dean whatever. I always liked you but you are starting to lose some credibility.

Do you know what the 2006 Corvette ZO6 is?

So what your saying is that your car can out handle and perform any production car ever made on the track?

RTFC

Outcorner and out brake any factory production car in stock for up to 100K no problem and then some. A few exotics would give me trouble with the right driver in stock form.

Ask any of the local guys about what this car can do- there used to be many many skeptics here locally until a few weekends ago when they finally seen it run for the first time.

You my friend would be pleasantly surprised also. You are always welcome for a ride along

There are videos, pictures and timesheets available on the So. Cal board that you can look at. You can even go on the So cal soloII board and look at comparison times of other large cars running street tires. Remeber alos as the car standsright now, the hot motor is still not finished and in the car so I was racing it with a pathetic 165 FWHP- wait till I get some real power behind the new V6-I am debating going Supercharged with this car and am trying to learn this ECM crap first before I finish my choice- the motor is the very last thing and I have 1/2 the parts already for it.

RTFC

ME, I did the footwork and checked the times of the 3 Vettes that were *not stock* but were on street tires that day.

On average I would say they pump out about 350 FW hp minimum. I put out 165. They have much wider steet tires also were I am running 245-50-16's on this car.

93 vette ran a 61.39
00 Vette ran a 62.08
89 Vette ran a 63.18
I ran a 63.32 in a fairly stock V6 motor AND I showed up late and hurried over to register and run a course I didn;t even get to study- I gaurantte from what I see in the video from my course judgement errors I could have clicked off a 61.8. My 63.3 was a conservative run after I made a bad mistake the first run with a 66.1. I then went back out hard on the 3rd run *thinking I had the track memorised* and made another bad wrong turn then correction running a 64.2 with many other obviousflaws in the video I can factually point out showing that it was obvious I didn't know the course. You can blatantly see me coming out of the last jont section and heading far to the right rather than sitting to the left tight out of that section- I was loosing major time heading in the wrong directions because I was driving blind. Yet, I was still ringht on the heals of the high HP sports cars.

BMmonteSS

Last time I went auto-xing I only hit full throttle 3 times. HP really isn't that important when auto-xing if you ask me. Weight to rubber ratio is, and having that weight distributed evenly is very important. I think thats why your car is so fast RTFC. Not only is the v-6 light, its center of gravity is much further back in the chassis.

But seriously dude, drop the my V-6 car can kick your asp stuff, it really does hurt your credibility.

ME Leigh

Hey Dean how much does your car weigh, i'm just curious?

Dale

iTrader: (12)

autocross, the only event I've seen where a go-kart can out run a vette


Anyway, upgrades need to made.
1. Lots of body bracing. SFC/cage, strut braces, wonder bar, seam welding. On a hardtop car, no t-top or vert.
2. Sticky *** tires on light rims with proper backspacing/offset. This is all opinions on whats best.
3. Front end. Weight reduction, solid strut mounts, stiffer springs, bumpsteer kit, tuned struts, swaybar matched to your spring selection.
4. Rear end. Springs, panhard bar, lcas, lca brackets, panhard bracket, lsd/posi, tuned shocks, saybar matched to your spring selection.

To get it going, your choice of engine, designed for the rpm band you wish to run. Also playing into this is trans, rear gears, driveshaft.

To stop it. Upgrade brakes all the way around from the pads, rotors, lines, reservouir, perportioning valve.


Biggest of all. Time behind the wheel learning/tuning YOUR car, to YOUR driving style.

Dewey316

All that I can say about this is.

The new Z06 went 7:41 at the n-ring. I repeat, 7:41.

Not to belittle your car dean, but 7:41 is a VERY impressive time around the circuit. On an auto-x, i don't doubt your car could run with a Z06, although I would be interested to see what one of them would run, with yourself, or another driver of equal skill driving it. Its really hard compare someone who can drive, with auto-x times of some yahoo off the streets, driving his new toy.

ME Leigh

Hey Dewey, i don't doubt it but where did you get that info? I want to see it, because the Z06 is the mother ****ing ****.

Dewey316

ME---

Its all over the internet. Any corvette forum will probably have the data.

blyth18md

This would be nice to know.

MrDude_1

im willing to bet mine weighs less.. lol

blyth18md

curb weight on my 82 was 3296. Right now its pretty gutted. no interior plastics, no rear seats, no smog pump, no exhaust manifolds/AIR...no a/c

a tank of gas probably counters a good part of that...but i hear alot of these cars are upwards of 3500

RTFC

Another kid telling me about life. I happen to be almost 40 and have competed in AutoX for many years in a 540 HP Vette - yet you're going to tell me HP doesn't matter. I guess not when you're running in a corn filed that is small and slick. Take a look at the Videos (mikes in-car video) of our local tracks here in So Calif and tell me again HP doesn;'t matter. I've seen footage of the dinky tracks the SCCA sets up back east.

As for open track times like Innsbruck, LeMans, etc.. This is a daily driver that I build for my wife and I occationally play around with it because it is so damn fun, but it is very slow- I mean very very slow. So for me to be keeping up with Vettes in Autox I am making up time under braking and cornering for what they are gaining on me big time under power- I loose time out of every corner onto any kind of straight. If you have not riden or driven a 60*V6 2.8L Camaro then I would recommend go try one and see how pathetically slow this car is power wise- then tell me again that HP does not matter.

I would guess the weight of this car to be around 3100lbs. It is an automatic with PW, A/C, CC, and tilt. Some has been lightened, some has been added and gained. I have lower polar weight then most any here and I have probably the highest sprung to unsprung ratio for a street car on factory rims. Eventhough I am a light V6 chassis, my unsprung weight is pretty low.

ChevyRacer

guys dont fight. and from the numbers that guy is posting, he is tlaking about -04 vettes. Not the new 06 Z06.

ME Leigh

The 06 ZO6 weighs 3100's with full interior and nav system.

18 x 9 1/2-in. front and 19 x 12-in. rear alloy wheels fitted with run-flat Goodyear F1 Supercar tires, 275/35ZR-18 front and 325/30ZR-19 rear. The brakes are massive, front rotors have grown from the base C6's 12.8 inches in diameter by 1.2 inches thick to 14.0-inch rotors of equal thickness. In the rear, the rotors have increased from 12.0 by 1.0 to 13.4 by 1.0 inches. Moreover, these larger rotors are clamped by one-piece calipers in place of the sliding units on the base car. The fronts have six pistons and six individual brake pads; the rears have four pistons with four pads. The individual pad design reduces taper wear during severe track usage.

The hood and front fenders are made of carbon fiber. The frame rails use hydroformed aluminum instead of steel and the engine cradle is made of magnesium.

It has a lightweight version of the C5R 427cid (7.0l) engine known as the LS7, making 505hp and 475tq. Within the LS7 block, you'll find a forged-steel crankshaft, forged-steel main-bearing caps, titanium connecting rods, and forged pistons. A dry-sump oiling system with an eight-quart reservoir ensures proper lubrication of this long-stroke engine at its 7000-rpm redline.

Also the new corvette is smaller than a 3rd gen.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/c...z06/index.html

http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....&page_number=1

ME Leigh

The last time i weighed my car it was 3130#'s. But that was before i swapped on Al LT1 heads, hollow 36mm swaybar, mini-starter, and built a much lighter decoupling and sliding torque arm. I would guess that mine weighs right around 3000#'s now. Now i just gotta built light weight bumper supports, tubular k-member, racing seats, strip the rest of the interior and an LS1. I bet i could get to 2800#'s pretty easily.

RTFC

Yeah and I have a '68 Vette with 335/30 17's, full race suspension, and 540 (RWHP) 327 that spins 8500 rpms and the Camaro can still out handle my Corvette.

What you arenot posting is the factory Z06 has a suspension setup for some rich lady to ddrive to the grocery stocre with smooth rubber bushings that flex and shock valving that needs help on a race track to perform at its best- Hence why I still state I can out slalom one *Stock*

Besides, what's a new Z06 cost? (you don't need to answer that) I have only 25K total into mine. If I were to put 20K into a Ryan Falconer TT60*V6 at about 700HP motor I'd eat a Z06 for lunch down a straight away and still come in well under budget.

ME Leigh

The C6 Z06 is an uncompromised factory race car. It is in a different league then any car ever built before. But you can still believe what you want, but your car is not the best handling car around. The Porsche Cayman S how ever will be.

No hard feelings meant and nothing against you, but damn you are one cocky, hard-headed, SOB.

I know you can build something that will better the Z06 all around. But when you take into account labor cost, even if you did it your self, it would cost way more then a $67,000 Z06

RTFC

Thank you for the compliment I just having fun. I do not have the best hadling car out there- what I do have is an extremely impressive budget grocery getter that will rival any exotic.

You can't imagine how badly I would love to pull this car off the street, fiberglass & lexan everything, cage it, get serious with the suspension (full race, nmot wifes grocery getter)and put a built turbo motor onto it and spin the r's to 10K. This car could be very deadly.

I have run a 2:09 on Calif speedway as is and the CMC group runs from 1:58 to 2:11 at the last event on stripped down V8 3rd gens with race tires( motors are limited to almost stock HP- aprox 225 @ the rear wheels) And again I probably put down about 125-130 rwhp and I am on street tires.

ME Leigh

That exactly what i want to do. Build my car into the best handling pro touring mobile i can, drive it everyday, and still smoke some *** at the races.

rsn932

That, or the Lotus Exige

RTFC

Have you guys seen either a Lotus Exige or a Cayman porsche on a track? They are far from anything special. Heck A GT2 Porsche will eat them borth for lunch and that is still street legal.

The ultimate street car is a McLaren F1 hands down.
http://www.fantasycars.com/McLaren_F1/mclaren_f1.html By the way, My Vette does 0-60 in 3.2 seconds in 1st gear. I shift at 65 into second and can smoke the street tires @ 80 on the freeway when I had the nitrous on it.

I have even seen the Lark McLaren F1 GTR '97 Lemans winner running around Calif speedway at full pace reving 14K+- Holly Sh*T

ME Leigh

Um, its kinda hard to see them at the track. Since you can't buy them for 2 years.

ME Leigh

Heres some specs for the Porsche Boxster, and remember its a convertible. It out handles a 911 Turbo.


Mar-05 Issue Road and Track

3.2 L, H-6, 6 speed Manual
0-60
5.00 sec.

1/4 Mile
13.40 sec.

60-0 Braking
107.00 ft.

80-0 Braking
187.00 ft.

Skidpad
1.00 g.

Slalom
73.90 mph

Again it's a factory stock freakin convertible!

laiky

i love the specification racing that goes on in these posts, i learn alot. Namely no matter how fast you are there is always some one faster. Me personally, i don't care so much how fast other guys are just how fast i am, then againg i don't get to the track more than once a decade. I am a firm believer in "its not what you got, its how you use it" (great song BTW). Anybody remember at the 24 hours of daytona a few years ago, i think it was Max Papis (i could be wrong on the name) in a ferrarri 333 making a bonzai run at a win when the leading olds aurora lost a gear. In the closing hour of the race with 23 hard hours on the car, he managed to better the cars qualifying times through traffic and came within a few laps of the win. He was driving on the grass at some points. best auto racing/driving i ever saw. It shows how important the nut behind the wheel is.

smokeycamaro51

Yea good ol Mad Max one hell of a race driver. I believe that is the race he got his nick name of mad max. But i think i read somewhere up in the posts of RTFC and i saw a rather dissapointing number. "Besides, what's a new Z06 cost? (you don't need to answer that) I have only 25K total into mine."-RTFC 25K???????????? Jeez that sure is a lot. I'm thinking after the engine rebuild, paint, and fun stuff like new seats and a top maybe 8k in mine. might be closer to 9k So I'm guessing a good deal of that cash is into making all that suspension light and damn near perfect. Or was that just for the leather interior and A/C so the little woman doesn't get her uncomfortable. So i'm guessing there is prolly a Good posi (not the original 3rd gen posi) with all aftermarket control arms, sway bars, springs, shocks....you name it on the suspension aspect it aint stock. Which then brings us to the question how does it feel to out spend everyone else for 3 seconds? Because all the stuff under my car was found off a junk yard Z-28 and i have an open rear end. Although a lot of that will change with the next weekend. The whole boasting on beating CMC cars they all have stock suspension peices because its mandated in the rules as well as wieght limits. prolly somewhere close to 200 pounds heavier than you(although i've lost interest with them folks). And my convert wieghs prolly something close to 3900.

RWB____s

You know Dean, You and I are goin to have to give a go just for giggles some day. You the Vette on race tires against me on race tires.
Sound Like fun? I'll keep you posted on the Beast.

RTFC

I'll find the time by the end of this year to go through it and get it AutoX worthy again. I have to dig up my old charts on the setup specs somewhere lost in a box upstairs I think. For the record to everyone- Ron (who is RWB___s) has one hell of a motor in that car of his and it is set up very well. He has one serious race car


Smokey, I don't believe it was 3 seconds partner- try from 5.532 your best to my best and 6.880 worst to worst. I threw my car sideways and slid through a gate not to miss it and scrubbed major time and my worst run still beat your best 2.7 seconds- I guess thats were guys like you get the 3 seconds from. I'll say again that had I walked the course like you guys did that would have been another 1.5 second margin bigger difference. I ran that whole course guessing on each lap which way to go and still beat everyone, the closest one was 3.9 seconds off and he's on what? 11 inch rear rims and BFG KD G-Force tires- You are out of your league.

As for outspending? That includes the cost of the car that I bought 13 years ago and the motor and exotic parts sitting onthe engine stand that are not into the car yet. It also includes a toatlly new r134 AC system asnd the current new 2.8 stock crate motor that I put into it 4 years ago with now 40,000 miles on it that is currently in the car separate from the hot motor I am building.

Kills you doesn't it that you got creamed by a little pathetic V6 that you have to call the money card.

RTFC

PS My wife's not a little woman- I would be willing to bet she is taller than you (Now I' know I'm sounding like a *****, but I'm having a good time, AFRIKINGOODTIME)

This is the reason why I have grown so much in love with this car and am trying to buy her something else so I can drive it more. It is an underdog that just fustrates everyone that finds out its a 6

*edit* Hey Smokey, I just remembered something. Aren't you the guy that camne on the So Calif board saying something about you and your father run withthe local Porsche club and that you are only 1 second off your fathers C5 with your Camaro? That would mean that I am wasting your fathers Corvette by 4.5 seconds if he were to run that same track with us. I think you alone just help me prove I can out handle new Vettes in my Camaro.

And another *for the Record*- even though this Camaro will out handle my Vette, the raw power of my Vette will run a minimum of about 8seconds and probably more like10 seconds faster on that same course. I run times right with George Lynch and Brian Chemelewski in my dinosaur '68. This car is major handful and I don't even think I breathe during an entire run trying to muscle this car around corners with no power steering.

kevinc

...whoops, double post...

kevinc

Which cars are you referring to? Hopefully not the Lotus Exige...here's two of them at Lime Rock Park in Connecticut back in 2003:

http://www.warpten.com/carpics/lime03/MVC-182F.JPG

http://www.warpten.com/carpics/lime03/MVC-183F.JPG

nape

iTrader: (1)

"How to make a car handle like say, a 06 Z06? "

Pour gas on the Camaro, don't forget the interior too, strike match, throw match on car, go buy Z06, but Camaro banner on windshield.

Now you have a 'Camaro' that handles like a Z06. Some people would probably call you dumb for doing it, but I'd call you dumb for asking the question in the first place.

nape

iTrader: (1)

Hah, go see what it takes to build a CMC car. The suspension is hardly stock. It might be stock pieces, but who can afford to buy $500 A-arms and $700 coilover kits and still afford to race? Not me.

Also, I doubt that the CMC'ers are 200 lbs heavier then Dean. CMC minimum race weight is 3150 with driver. Meaning the car by itself probably weighs in the 2900-3000 range. That'd be 100-200 lighter then Dean if he was talking strictly the weight of the car.

BMmonteSS

Dean, I hate to break it to ya, it's not the car that ticks everyone off

kevinc

I've been able to take down unmodded C5 Z06s on the road course, with basically equivalent driver skill, only by using slicks and racing brake pads.

Meanwhile they're just showing up, emptying out their car, adjusting tire pressure, and giving me a good run of it in the same trim they run on the street. Mine's completely unstreetable w/ the tires and brakes set up for road course use.

I can brake later and harder than them, carrying more speed into the corners, which gives me more exit speed onto the straights. That's the only advantage I have, other than the occasional guy who forgets to switch his Traction Control into competition mode.

Both times I've run across a Z06 or modded C5 with slicks, I couldn't touch 'em. And I guarantee there isn't a normally aspirated V6 3rd gen on the planet that could touch them either on any course with 3/4mi or more on the main straight.

RTFC

Kevinc, (for sake of keeping this mouth wash contest going- I'm having oh so fun here) why not show us proof on how your miraculous LS1 3rd gen can out brake and out corner a new vette instead of just telling us about it (like you re shooting your mouth off in the post above- if you can then you can, lets see it not hear about it). See here, I have proof which pictures and video and laptimes, not just me floating my boat like you with only hearsay from your words.

In other words, if you want to contribute to this rebuttle, then back yourself and come to the show with documents, otherwise, youre opinion and hearsay means nothing here- just another internet racer.

CrazyHawaiian

Dont take this the wrong way but damn, what is up with this thread? I think we need to get away from what we have done and start to focus of what we've done with the car. Remember the question was, what can be done to the car to make it handle like a Z06, not who has out-handled a Z06. Driver skill is the biggest variable of all. To have a good tech discussion I think we should just leave it out of the equation and focus on the car tech. You could put me in Deans car and watch me get smoked, and then what have we proved?

By reading the last few posts (before the thread took a turn) I think the general answer is that it will take ALOT of mods to handle like a Z06.

TWICEtheRICE

http://www.wreckedexotics.com/