k's89rs

Here in the next two or so weeks im about to drop about 1200-1300 dollars on suspension/chassis mods. im doing eibach springs, ( have to have an adjustable panhard bar ) adjustable panhard bar, polyurethane bushings, some beefy caster/camber plates, beefy tie rod sleeves, lca relocation brakets, sway bars, and a wonder bar. i would like to do some SFC's but i have my exhaust run differently. i have a big ol' hooker muffler where my cat should be, and it would be a problem to run pre fabbed SFC's. any body out there have had the same problem as i have? also this has been bugging me since the first time i have heard it.....the alignment of the rearend. i have been told that it is off to the right about an inch, and when the car is lowered it causes the rear to move even further. i know this is an issue, so i guess what im asking is how do you set the rear to be centered under the car?
thanks
kent

k's89rs

dang i know there are some suspension gods out there......

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

An adjustable panhard bar will allow you center the rear end again.

http://spohn.net/product.cfm?productid=1297

"Replace the factory's weak, stamped steel, flexible panhard bar with one of our heavy duty set-ups! Allows for centering the rearend after lowering. The best component for serious handling performance. Allows alignment of the rear for clearance when running larger tires. Greatly increases rear's lateral stability"

If you're taking the LCAs off anyways (have to do for the brackets), then why not just replace them too with some tubular poly bushings.

Depending on SFC designs it might cause a problem and might not. You might beable to use Spohn's tubular design SFC's. Here's the page with all the installation pictures. You do not necessary have to use the rocker to transmission area brace on the pass. side if it will not fit with the muffler. Maybe you can squeeze the rocker length tube in there without problems. I left the added cross brace off(old boxed design) because it caused minor clearance problems with the dual CATs and I didn't feel like messing with it.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

Wow, those Spohns SFC would probably fit my car. I too am not running a stock routed exhaust, although I don't have a whole muffler where the cat should be.

That's pretty cool, now I don't need MORE exhaust work for my SFCs!!!!!

Are you sure? ...not that I'm doubting you. It doesn't look like it would fit my set-up.

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

Positive. I've been running without the pass. side rocker still to trans tunnel brace for awhile (at least 4 years). I will probably be adding it on here in the next 2 years or so since I will be making the switch to long tubes and a mufflex y pipe. I still have the brace in my bedroom in a parts pile.

I still used the one on the driver side of the car since no clearance problems over there.

If you search around you'll find other people who left that brace off too. Mostly on the older posts using the boxed design. Of course it's a good idea to add it if you can without causing clearance problems.

k's89rs

wow thats neat. looks really low profile too. would they actually sell that and ship it? i didnt see a price for it on the site. also about the centering of my rearend.......how does that work?

92MaroRS

on the adjusting sleves, stay FAR AWAY from the edelbrock ones, they are horrible, i recieved my first set to only find out that one was soo badly threaded that i couldnt even get the tie rod in 5 turns, second set only one of them was perfect that i could spin both rods in all the way, the other was screwed up twards the end, yes it gave me enough adjustment, but when i contacted edelbrock they were less than nice on the phone. go with Spohns HD tie rod adjusters.

Karps TA

iTrader: (2)

I got the Edelbrock ones and they were perfectly fine.

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

Heck yeah, Spohn has his banner on the board for a reason. Under current webface design go to "Parts Catalog" then to "1982-1992 F-body" from www.spohn.net They'll even powdercoat it for you too in black or red if you want to spend an extra $45 for it, IMO it's worth it.

Spohn makes very high quality products for the price.

The adjustable panhard bars work because there adjustable.
They allow for the bar to be shortened or lengthen'd.


Spohn also makes the HD adjusting sleeves, like stated earlier. http://www.spohn.net/product.cfm?productid=1430

You can decide for yourself if they look beefy enough. I don't have them yet.

BTW, I'm not at all bias... LOL Spohn won all my business after Steve answered few of my emails promptly and nicely. Just says something when the President of a company will take time to answer questions over email or on the phone.

k's89rs

ok so the edelbrock sleeves are iffy. everyone likes spohn...... hmmmm i have a set of LCA's and a normal panhard bar by these guys http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...973577325&rd=1 they are a machine shop up in pennsylvania, and i have had no problems with their products. as for the tie rod sleeves i have also found some on ebay.

k's89rs

dont get me wrong im sure spohn is very high quality, but im more bang for the buck. this stuff i.e. LCA's, panhard bars, etc. is machine shop work. anyone can make these, all they need is the equiptment, materials, etc. once again im not dissing on steve spohn by any means, but i dont like to pay extra money for stickers on my products.

92MaroRS

your not, it takes skill to make these products, you need to know what your doing, and trust me Steve Spohn knows exactly what he is doing, if you ever get a chance to look at his products, look at his welds, they are simply flawless, your paying for quality work. Oh yea, and his customer service is simply the best in the industry.

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

If you can find better deals then go that way. It's really a personal choice afterall.

All I know is I've only heard of very few tq arm ever breaking from Spohn. Those failures were on the first design, which used a slider for the front mount. I'm still running that design without any problems. One of the failures I remember reading on a news group posting acouple years back was from an actual driveshaft coming loose and spinning and smacking the crap out of the tq arm, so it's no wonder that tq arm failed.

Yes, it's true a machine/fabrication shop can make lcas or box them. But in my area no one does powdercoating and for the price of the product it would probably cost me more to have one made. With Spohn I know I'm not only paying for the product but I will be provided added Tech Support in the future if I ever need it. LOL, I've even emailed Steve with questions about products dealing with Chassis/Suspension that I didn't even buy from him and he's provided helpful feedback and additional ideas.

k's89rs

oh yeah i know that steve spohn is awesome! and once again im not trying to down him.......sometimes you just have to pay for name brand. i prefer to get some stuff cheap to save my money for more complicated things. for instance im going to get my torque arm from him, and if i were to go tubular k-member or a-arms i would get those from him too. i respect him, sometimes stuff is too expensive.

Joez88Camaro

Don't buy overpriced tie rod sleeves, just get the good ones from autozone and you'll be fine, and yeah, just in case, someone show me a picture of a bent or damaged $10 tie rod sleeve set. I have the spohn ones and they're good, but I was pretty much just throwing money at my suspension, realistically, useless you do some major damage, you won't damage them.

k's89rs

i know what you are saying. more than likely i not going to be bending the OEM tie rod sleeves, so thats why im not going to spend top dollar on the heavy duty ones. its just one of those things that you hear about, and want to have, because it makes what you have look like junk. if anyone understood that.....

k's89rs

how many of you have taken your car on the skid pad? if i get this all set up right what do you think my car will do? some day id like to autocross it, and im hoping all of this stuff works together.

RTFC

Its not the bending that is the problem, its the flexing which causes them to move and go out of alignment. This will not happen on a car that does not corner hard with a fairly stock setup. I can not run stock units on my car with the magnitude it corners, the alignment would go fuzzy real quick on it from lateral stresss causing the sleeves to move. Parts will generally not bend, but they will flex under stress but for the most part move bac k into place. Take the chassis for example, why do you think SFC's are manditory for these cars to corner well? The chassis does not bend pemanately to the magnitude that it flexes, it pretty much always returns to shape after the lateral and or torsonal stresses are relieved. Metal has memory, it will flex and return to shape. Its the flex you are eliminating under cornering strains that cause a problem in handling potential.

ps, I had my car on a skidpad about 2 years ago at 1.07'gs to the left on street tires that are still on the car with 20,000 mies on them- same tires, not ultrasoft "so-called street tires" that would render only 5,000 miles and made specifically for autox yet street rated. Anybody can pull 1'g on autox soft rubber.

k's89rs

That is why im planning on putting those tie rod sleeves on, i dont want the stock ones to "flex." i am also putting on some SFC's, my brother-in-law and i are going to build those. so you did 1.07g's on the pad? what all have you done to your suspension?also who can tell me how to center my rearend when i lower it? do i just line the pinion up with the transmission?

92MaroRS

measure from tire to fender well, make it the same on both sides.

RTFC

Sorry moderators, but he asked and I love doing this:

Started life as a Limited production '87 Calif Edition RS Camaro with a custom dealer paint scheme.

I have added-

*'87 IROC 16x8 rims that I had chromed- Rims then were balanced grinded to ensure perfect balance before tires were ever fitted. Reducing the need for much balance weight when tires are mounted
*Multiple sets of high dollar performance tires- currently Goodyear F1 GS-D3's
*Arp racing studs
*Kuyokugen lightweight 7-sided racing lugnuts
*'87 IROC 10-bolt with rear discs, 3.23's and posi (I'll get more into this later- It has been modified from this stock point)
*Various sets of stock front and rear 10.5" performance rotors and pads. Mainly Stillen brake rotors and pads were best by far in the 10.5" iron caliper catagory.
* finally after years of not keeping "reliable" (meaning long lasting without warping) brakes on the car I decided to upgrade them- Wilwood LS1 12.2x.810 4pot rears with internal drum parking brake assembly.
*Lokar custom fit steelbraided E-brake cables and clevis, stock parking lever adjuster removed and part of assembly altered
*Fronts are 6pot 13x1.25 Wilwood -Biggest anyone can get under a stock 16" iroc rim- Everything custom made and fitted from scratch. Spindles shaved for weight reduction
*EBC Greenstuff pads (Wilwood pads were terrible, tried various types- nothing worked well without noise on street temps)
*GW custom billet aluminum front hubs
*Custom alum hubcentric wheel spacers to set proper scrub pattern with new front brake setup
*Earls braided brake lines- custom made
*Earls Solo-bleed fluid valves
*1LE prop valve (I have recently put a new booster on also in the past two years.)
*Wilwood Adjustable Prop valve (not in yet, working on custom in-cockpit fitment.)
*ES Bushings in A-Arms and extended ball joint
*Welded bracing to stock A-arms for strength and prevent flexing
*Suspension Spring Specialist 800lb front linear springs trimmed to ride height. Final rate aprox 810-820lbs from trimming to exact desired height
*rear Progressive rate springs 145-225lb max
*Koni shaft style progessive rate bumpstops that are setup to assist the rear spring rate even further progessively to help induce a certain disired amount of cornering squat
*Koni "yellow" sport struts & shocks on max setting front and 1click down from max on rears
*Custom billet aluminum HMS strut mounts with special Aurora HD racing bearings. Also had them polished.
*Fairly agressive alignment specs for being used on the street everyday. If I didn't occationally drive this car hard, the wifes daily driving would cause uneven tire wear.
*Eldebrock TPI 3pt strut tower brace
*GW steering brace (Car already has a quick ratio 2.25 lock to lock steering box from factory)
*Custom welded upper rear steering box brace (pre-loaded and removable)
*Custom welded trans tunnel/rear control are brace (pre-loaded and removable)
*Baer bumpsteer alum adj rodended tierods sleeves
*Spohn 34mm solid chromemoly front swaybar
*HD front swaybar frame mounts so the bar does not pull out of the frame under hard cornering
*Front grill and airboxes modified to alter airflow patterns into the nose of the car
*Custom 4 core brass radiator then fitted still utilizing stock electric fan for now (This will all change by next summer- current project started going to a complete custom one of a kind cooling system with electric waterpump and BeCool rad on a 60*V6)
*BeCool radiator and dual fan kit rated for 700hp efficiancy(not in yet)
*Earls Flexcool Stainless Steel radiator lines with polished clamp ends for both upper and lower rad hoses (not in yet)
*Dual highflow air filters
*A/C system completely updated to a "new" R-134 setup. Not the old R-12 compressor converted.
*Darrell Young Racing "completely custom" (Not an off the shelf unit) 700r4 with everything internally gutted and upgraded.
*Custom made V8 torque convertor fitted to V6 tranny (Tranny has V8 imput shaft)
*B & M shifter gate plate (Prototype)
*ACPT carbon fiber 4lb driveshaft with Spicer u-joints. Spohn driveshaft loop cut back off at this point- No more concern about a high speed polevault with the brooming carbon fiber safety system
*rebuilt 10bolt rearend with new bearings, seals and kept the taller 3.23's in it. I like this ratio on the road better than the 3.42's. They have a broader power range through corners and higher top end without going into O.D.- Good for roadracing.
* Moser alloy axles with lightweight drilled flanges to reduce rotation weight
* "Roadrace" version Auburn Posi
*Aluminum diff cover with bearing cap preloads
*BMR bolt-on relocation brackets (I welded them into place) Why bolt-ons? They have a secondary support brace that the weld-on styles don't- strengthens the shock mount for a future coilover rear conversion. I was thinking ahead, but don't now think I'll ever bother doing it.
*Spohn chromemoly TQarm with solid trans mount crossmember with driveshaft loop. I also fitted the front solid mount with a larger HD Aurora rodend.
*ES poly trans mount
*25mm chromemoly Spohn rear swaybar with HD axle mounts.
*Spohn chromemoly adj LCA's with special HD Aurora rodends (34,000 load rating) also added- Radius arm swing shorteneds as much as possible to induce roll understeer when cornering /update:new 56,000 load rating QA1 rodends now fitted. part # HMR12HCPT ("T" is teflon lined)
*Tubular panhard rod
*Panhard relocation bracket
*Spohn tubular suframe connectors. I installed myself and shear welded them along the subframe. Custom bend trianglar inboard braces and welded them to the floorboard also. 1) to gain catalytic convertor height for ground clearance. 2) Direct bracing design- stronger and ties into, not laying on top like original Spohn design. he doesn't do this for ease of install for the average person.
*The entire floorboad is cleaned and epoxy painted to help prevent corrision.
*PF&E custom stainless steel headers (One of a kind. Stainless retains heat and is much perfered for racing, and for life expectancy of headers) Headers not installed yet along with various other engine componants I will list and are collecting to install together.
*Headers are also ceramic coated
*Gibson high flow catalytic convertor. 2 1/2" in and out
*Catback exhaust completely redone with 2 1/2" pipe. Tucked under floorboard as tight as possible (It doesn't hang down like over the counter exhuasts do). Aftermarket exhaust hangers welded on and system welded together, not clamped
*Flowmaster 80 muffler with 1.75" dual exits (Not the crappy sounding large 2 1/2" duals)
*'89 Vette in-tank fuelpump. Higher pressure and flow with metal internals. Stock pump has plastic internals.
*Fuel pressure raised slightly (Neighbor [professional auto repair owner and race motor builder] did this for me after scanning it with a Diacom and realising it was running lean. Don't know if he took it apart and shimmed the FPR or what. I haven't ever had it apart to see after he messed with it.
*62mm EDP billet alum TB (discountinued- but I have a new one)
*Custom home made alum plenum
*Polished intake runners to injectors. Polished stock plenum neck as much as possible and also blocked the EGR to prevent the notorious carbon buildup(Ported and polished on uninstalled setup- I have another complete intake manifold for the new motor)
*Holley adjustable fuel pressure reg (Not in yet)
*Autometer Air/Fuel ratio gauge setup (Not in yet)
*Autometer 100psi fuelpressure gauge with sender machined into fuelrail block (Finished on spare unit, not installed yet)
*Autometer Trans temp gauge(not in yet)
*19lb injectors (Own, but not installed I am only listing things I currently own. If not installed yet, I will list "Not installed". Otherwise they are on the car)
*1.52 roller tip rockers installed currently
*Fiero alum valvecovers (not installed)
*140amp polished Alt with custom bracket
*ASP crankshaft underdrive pulley
*new design tensioner
*idlepulley for waterpump delete project (not installed)
*timing cover with electric WP fitting TIG welded in place (not installed)
*aftermarket prom chip- programed for 180* running temp
*New distributor with A/C Delco module and dist based drilled for added cooling
*53,000volt Hypertech ignition coil. (Stock is 38,000, MSD is 48,000) Coil underneath further heatshielded from exhaust manifold
*Taylor 10.4mm race wires
*Taylor fire sleeves to heat shield the spark plug cable boots
*EVERY sensor in the computer system loop has been replace with a new A/C Delco units within the past 2 years- everything is perfect. A/C delco sensors and module are the best money can buy. They have great insulation against heat and will out perform anything else in the short and long run- don't ever buy any other brand.
*3 years ago I had a new 2.8 GM crate motor put into it (not rebuilt) It has currently about 40,000 on it.
*3.4L 60*V6 bolck on engine stand bored to 3.5l (in process of custom build)
*MobilOne full synthetic 15W50 oil in every car I drive.
*40below and swimming pool ("treated") water in the cooling system
*Deleted the TB coolant lines entirely for ease of plenum removal.
* 13 degree timing advance. stock is 10*
*redid the headliner
*LaCarrera polished 4-spoke steering wheel and polished billet hub with black bowtie engraved horn insert.
*Pioneer 1.5din CD player reciever unit- no amps. This unit doesn't need it. It has much much better sound than the factory ERS system. Amps add too much weight anyways- I'm into handling so I personally don't care for that crap in a car. I have a home system that will drowned out any ******* neighbor playing their crappy thump thump music in the rare case that happens in my neighborhood. Loud music doesn't belong in an automobile (My personal opinion) One need to listen to the noises your car is telling you when you drive- especially when pressing a car (A big tip for novice drivers.)
*Forgot about the Sylvainia Silverstar headlamps both low and high beams
*Triple edge lifetime wiperblades
*Personalized license plate reading: ON A RAIL
*Autolite DoublePlatinum plugs
*Diehard Roadhandler battery
*Does the matching painted floorjack count? I was bored

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I sure hope you have that typed up on your pc and just copy clip it

RTFC

Thanks Jay. Like I'd spend all day again figuring that out like the first time you guys put me up to it on the V6 board Its saved on the Cardomain site I made. I need to remember to add to it on the new stuff coming
you're getting a decent list yourself. I remember the list you had on your showtruck. It was quite impressive.

k's89rs

WOw that is a lot of stuff...... how long have you had the car did you do all of that when it was in your possession, or did you get some of it like that?

RTFC

I hae had it since '91. It was my wife's uncles car (bought new in '78) and he passed away. We bought it from this kids selling it from his estate sale. It was stock back then other than having a dunebuggy style steering wheel he put into it and some Pepboys chrome steel 15" rims that I personally think looked worse than the stock RS 15" rims (don't know why he did that).

I immediately found the IROC's and had them chromed, then played with a few different spring combos lowering it and kept Tokico "blues on it for years since my daughter was just born in '92 and I wanted an upgrade but not too stif ride.

That was about it until about 3 years ago when the car started getting worn and I decided to either sell it or build the crap out of it and keep it. I did the second.

I have a BeCool 700hp radiator kit on order right now being shipped to me as well as some other goodies that I have had on the back burner for about a year now since its not my daily driver I I dont use the car much, the wife does everyday. I am now going to finish the cooling system and start engineering the routing for the electrical waterpump into it for placement and hose routing once the Aluminum V8 radiator is in. The hoses mount different sides that the V6's do and the heater plumbing is different. It is also getting a panhard relocation bracket to finally correct the rear roll center which I should have done months ago- (been busy with the house) I have gauges going into it as well as an in cockpit Wilwood adjustable prop valve so I can set brake bias on-the-fly. My rear pressure is still too high on the new brake system I built so I need to turn down the rears slightly.

When everything else is all said and done, the motor will go in last once the car is built to handle everything custom I am doing. I am building a one-of-a-kind lightweight 3.5L 60*V6 performance Camaro designed for specifically hard street use that will hold up to the heat levels of any racecourse. I like things bulletproof and reliable. This will always remain a fulltime street car and daily driver- thats what I built it for. Don't want another monster V8 garage queen that is barely driven on the weekend, I wanted a fulltime fun car to drive and remain streetable.

This car is driven daily and only gets attention in between other priority projects. It does not sit on jackstands in the garage for a week or two or months on end while something is being customised, but in only three years its gotten there fast.

k's89rs

RTFC
wow, im glad that there are people out there that care about their cars as much as i do! i bought my car about two years ago from a police officer. it had spent most of its life in indiana so rust is an issue. everyone tells me this car is going to fall apart, and it might but im going to fix it. i love my car so much, since its my first car, that im never going to sell it or give up on it. it is a 1989 RS nothing special, 305 with a 700r4. when i got it, it was white with white rims. i just recently got it painted, replaced a floorpan, and took care of some rust on the rear quarters and the front fenders. now it is black with red SS stripes, some slp vette rims (black of course), and blacked out tail lights etc. now that im getting 1200 dollars back im going to stick that in the suspension. im starting with the suspension because im going to have a pretty stout motor, and i like working backwards; similar to you. im just trying to figure out what im going to do with it. i like burning corners, but i also like taking it out to the strip once in a while. so im going for a race/strip car i guess. i just have a bunch of questions i need answered before i start doing the suspension work.

RTFC

Best advice I give everyone is to first spend as much money as you possible can and buy very good shocks. Shocks are a compromise between roadracing style and drag style. You cant have both becuase the compression and rebound requirement for each style are so differently valved. Only very high dollar double adjustable shocks and struts would allow great peformance in both venues.

Tires is the other biggy. I always preach "shocks and tires". Without both, I don't car what you do to your frame or suspension, it woun't show benifits unless the shocks and tires are very good to handle the upgrades- that include better brakes. How good are brakes if the tires can not handle the force taction needed to slow the vehicle faster. If the tires skid easily on factory brakes, they are really going to skid easily on larger higher leverage brakes.

k's89rs

ok let me rephrase....i know it cant be both a road race car and a drag car, not possible. what im saying is i want to be able to do both. i want to be able it take it to the track, race it, then take it to the strip if i wanted to. im leaning alot more towards the road race style, a buddy of mine had a mustang that had some suspension work done to it. ever since i rode in the car with him, i wanted my car to handle like his did. i dont know if that made any sense.....

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

f-bodies are pretty unique in that they can be setup to do both quite well.

Yea, the shocks/struts that are optimum for each application are pretty specific, but you can run very fast at the dragstrip with road race type shocks/struts, at least into the low 1.5’s or even high 1.4 60’ if the car has the power to do it. The TA setup is pretty flexible. The other real hangup is the typical LCA relocation brackets out there will hurt initial turn in so you either have to learn to live with a little less antisquat off the line at the dragstrip or to swap pivot locations when you go from handling to dragrace mode.

Otherwise it’s just a matter of a tire swap.

Actually, I'll take that back, there's actually quite a few cars that can be setup to do both tolerably well with the same setup, it’s a question of knowing what compromises are worth making.

JamesY

Found an error in your list RTFC

*Bracing welded to A-arms
*ES Bushings in A-Arms and extended ball joint
*Welded bracing to stock A-arms for strength and prevent flexing

top and bottom are the same thing are they not?

RTFC

Thank you. I fixed it and edited a few other things also that I just bought but are "not in yet"

84RIceEater

RTFC what do you do for a living?... i see that you have but a pretty penny in your cars... (No THIS is not going to be a insult).



BTW.......

RTFC

CIA

I could tell you more but then I'd have to hunt you down.

I make side bets any time I can. I use the winnings towards doing more things to this car. Its fun having an underdog V6.

Kat

iTrader: (4)

Go Figure.. I thought you sold crack for a living

Kat

RTFC

No Kat, that was you and Stevethat are smuggling crack in those control arm tubes. Remember, "I'M" the CIA, I did a background check on you guys. Eyes in the sky.

I just watched "Meet the Fockers" last night.
I'm in that smart *** mood

Really though, I own my own Tile and Marble sales and installation company. Been in the business 20 1/2 years now and self employed for 19 of those. I am not a rich man- I am married with a 13 year old daughter. Need I say more.

Speaking of which, I need to get my *** to work and make some money. Bye.

Edit:Speaking of which, Anybody need some Antique tumbled travertine at $1 above wholesale? I need some more car parts
I buy the stuff well under contractors price. I have a wholesale account with an importer. I sell the stuff for around $3.80 sf. It retails for around $6.50 - $10.00 depending where you shop

Oh well, I tried, guess I do have to got to work today.

84RIceEater

yeah sounds like you put alot of money in your Camaro.... i can why you have the money....Nice Work.. i aplogize from before.

Kat

iTrader: (4)

It's cool I just lost my mom Tuesday so I'm kinda on the fence at the moment with emotions.

BTW SFC's made great places to deleiver coke to people in.. LOL

Kat

RTFC

I am sorry to hear that, My condolences. I know Steve had just lost his grandfather I believe it was a little while back. Life gets tough getting older. I know I will be facing that same thing some yer soon and expecting it, but It will still be hard when the time does come. Just remember to celebrate the good times you shared with her.

JamesY

I know you don't know me but yah, my grandmothers dieing right now too, lung cancer and a bunch of other stuff, shes 93 though but still. bad time of the year I guess.

Kat

iTrader: (4)

Yeah we knew it was coming to Dean, just still doesn't make it any easier as you said. She had cancer off and on in the past year and half. Beat it two times and the third time arround her body couldn't take it. The mind and sprit was totally willing too.

James I know exactly what you are going through. My mom was only 59 Yay smoking. If ya feel the neet to vent or whatever ya can e-mail me at kat@nethirdgen.org

Kat

JamesY

Thanks Kat :P

What would be really nice, is if I could get my Camaro running before the end of June, so I could drive out by myself *not in parents car* behind them to my grandmas in Winnipeg *one day drive, good test to see if my POS will make it , and then work on it with my cousin while seeing my grandma for maybe the last time.

The thing thats getting to me right now is the Camaro, grandma is still alive so I won't worry until later *Probably sounds pretty bad though*