RobC3

Hello,

I just rebuilt my entire front suspension and there is still a lot of play in the steering. I have seen that a few people have replaced this, but I haven't heard how much a of difference this has made. I was thinking of getting the whole shaft from GM. Does anybody know the part number?

Thanks in advance

THEGENERAL

are you sure that is the problem or is the gear box worn out ????

look under the hood and have a buddy move the steering wheel back and forth with the car off and see if the joint is flexing at all or the shaft is moving and the box is the culprit

i would be willing to put my money on the steering box not the rag joint

RobC3

I have actually tried this and it appears the whole shaft is moving. I didn't remove the plastic cover to check it, but I plan to do that this week however. I guess that will tell me whether it is the rag joint of the box. I think the box is adjusted about as tight as it can go, judging by the way it feels. It is a little stiff and doesn't really go back to the center on its own too well. This could have somthing to do with the looseness of the box however, meaning that it does go back to the begining of the dead spot, but since there is such a big dead spot, it is not quite center. The car is all over bumpy roads the way it is now, and the wheel has a general rubbery feel. Maybe if the box is bad, I will switch to a manual box.

Thanks for the response

MonteCarSlow

You've got the box to tight. Loosen it up a little bit. Next, pull back that plastic cover and have someone turn the steering wheel a little bit in each direction and watch for play in the rag joint. Ours was so bad the metal stops that limit the amount of slop in the rag joint were being called upon to do their job!

EdB

RobC3

So you think having the box too tight will create a dead spot in the steering too? It makes sense, like the box has to overcome some force before it starts moving. Hopefully that is the problem, I am going to spend the day on Saturday trouble shooting this steering problem. I have no idea who adjusted the box so tight. I just bought the car recently and have just started driving it working on it. Brakes came first, now I am working on the suspension.

RB83L69

Just have somebody shake the steering wheel back and forth while you watch the parts. See which ones move and which ones don't. Up to the point that everything moves, it's good; wherever the motion stops, that's the bad part.

This isn't rocket science or something, it's just a car. Don't outsmart yourself, or waste money and effort just mindlessly changing out parts.

The rag joint won't "make any difference" if it isn't all soggy from being soaked with fluid for a million miles from a leaky gearbox or hoses, or it's not torn in half. If it's good (transmits all motion), changing it will make no difference.

The Saginaw steering gear always develops play over a period of use. Adjust it correctly if it needs it, if you haven't done that, you will find that it makes a DRAMATIC difference. It has 2 adjustments: one for the worm shaft, which is a large nut with 2 spanner holes that fits around the steering shaft right below the rag joint; and the other is for the sector or Pitman shaft, and is the nut & Allen on top of the box. Adjust the worm end play first, then the sector end play.

Usually what people do, is try to take ALL the play out by tightening the sector shaft end play. If you adjust that too tight, it will make the steering feel sticky in the center, except that the worm shaft will still have play; so you'll have this sloppy wheel, then it will sort of "bump into" the sector, which will be bound up from overtightening. Then, if the center link or rod ends have play, the car will still wander, even with the steering "stuck" in the middle. Very obnoxious.

Someone has reported that the steering shaft has been discontinued by GM. I cannot confirm or deny this.

CrazyHawaiian

Great info man. Thks!

Kennerz

Steering boox adjustment is critical, however a worn rag joint will cause a wander, or vague feel as well. both are important. Seriously if you want awesome steering feel, use a rag joint eliminator, or remove it and bolt through the joint making it solid. I know this sounds backyard, but the feel in my opinion is much better, way more direct. once you have a solid rag joint, you will have to have a correctly adjusted steering gear, or your car will not feel right. If done correctly the steering feels great, very precise, tight ,but smooth.

Rage13

heres my dumb question of the day, why is there a rag joint? whats it really do?

Kennerz

Not so much a dumb question, if you don't know , you don't know. It's a coupler between the steering shaft, and the steering box(steering gear) I pretty sure it's there to reduce shock to the steering stem, sort of a dampener, allows a litle bit of play, unless it's worn , and then it can cause alot of slop in the steering, even if your box, and other related steering compoenents are good. Steering with a worn rag joint will feel very vague, may even cause or induce a slight wander. usually this is the last thing in the steering to go, but most thirdgens are 12-20 yrs old which is plenty of time for them to go bad. had to replace mine about 4yrs ago, took me a while to figure out that it was my problem, because as I said , they really don't wear out that often.

RB83L69

If you look closely, you'll notice the steeing column and the steering gear don't line up... it's there to act like a universal joint, for a fraction of the cost of one made like those in your drive shaft.

laiky

my rag joint was loose but it didn't appear to be, i guess the rubber hardened over the years and was no longer "clamped". Changing it was a dramatic improvement in the steering feel, best 13 bucks i ever spent.

RobC3

I adjusted the steering box a bit today and the difference was like night and day. It is so much better now, there is not much play left at all. The rag joint looked okay, but I will probably replace it anyway since it is relatively cheap and easy. I am really happy that it was something so simple.

1fasZ

What part# is the rag joint? I bought a universal one but it was way to big. Does a s-10 thave the same steering shaft?

SLAYER6669

iTrader: (1)

You'll find some information on rag joint part numbers in this thread: https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...&highlight=rag

Since everyones on the topic again, I still have this thing sitting here on my desk. Could anyone possibly give me some solid information on how the steering shaft comes out of the car so I can replace this thing? The last thing I heard/tried was removing the nut at the steering box, and the other one at the top of the shaft, and it was supposed to "Telescope" back towards the firewall.. Well it wouldnt.. Mebbe I just didn't try hard enough but it didn't seem to wanna budge.. Anyone shed some light?

RB83L69

Not much light to shed.... that's how it works. Comes right out. You might have to take a screwdriver or something and spread the place where the bolt comes out of down by the steering gear, to un-clamp that from off of the steering gear worm shaft. And, that bolt has to be completely removed, loosening it won't let it come apart. You'll see why when you get it apart.

screamin' 85 z

BTW: The rag joint can be found at any Advance Auto or the like, in the HELP section. Bring the old one along as a guide!!

SLAYER6669

iTrader: (1)

Hm, I guess I'll have to give it another go then and push a little harder! I had both of the bolt's completely out, and it moving up and down a touch, like not even 1/4" and it would just not move after that.. I'll give it another go sometime soon though! Thanks

FirebirdNYC

hey i have alot of play also, i think its at my box but iv heard that if you tighten to much it will damage the box, im scared to do this , how dangerous is this .

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Anyone get this months issue of GMHTP? They cover swapping in an aftermarket steering shaft from Flaming River (http://www.flaming-river.com/enter.htm) and also installed a new steering box from Detroit Speed (http://www.detroitspeed.com/Home10.html). The shaft from FR uses universal joints instead of a rag joint but otherwise is like the stock unit. The hardest part of the install is just installing the U-joints on the shaft since you have to drill a couple holes for set screws and bolts. The only drawback is that this new shaft supposedly transmits more road noise but big deal if the steering is tight.

If you're looking to replace the rag joint in the stock shaft like I am, take a look at Flaming River.


Ed

laiky

Flaming River or Borgeson have great stuff, they even sell a urethane damper joint. Problem is cost. the replcement rag joint is about 10 bucks, the shaft parts are over 200. each standard joint is about 70, i forget what the damper costs, then you need a section of telescoping shaft.

PS: remember that a collapsable steering shaft is a NECESSITY! It is an important safety device!

gmgod

I just adjusted the worm shaft on my 160,000 mile box, just snugged it up mabey a quarter of a turn. But still, if I grab the intermediate shaft with a big pair of pliers, I can move it back and forth quite a bit before it starts to move the pitman arm. The rag joint is visibly transfering all motion, I don't think I should tighten the worm shaft anymore because its not recentering as good as before. Should I back it off a little? As for the top adjuster, does that thing really do anything for taking the slack out of one of these or is it just an adjustment for steering feel?

gmgod

Alright, backed off worm shaft a little, tightened top adjuster a little. Its as good as I can get it. I guess these things will always be a little mushy on center.

naf

iTrader: (7)

If you're adjusting your steering gear box it's really best to do it off the car. The worm shaft adjuster nut should be tightened all the way down (30 ft-lbs) then backed off 1/2 inch. The pitman shaft (allen nut on top) should then be adjusted for 6-12 in-lbs across center. Fluid in the box can affect the torque readings on the pitman shaft adjustment. There's an tech article on montecarloss that explains it in more detail.

Like RB83L69 said, it should be adjusted correctly. Incorrectly adjusting the box-overtightening the overcenter/pitman adjustment without properly setting the worm shaft nut-can cause wear in the gears and lead to an early death.

gmgod

Yeah, I hear ya. This one now feels as good as any other steering boxed car I've driven, was just trying to get it to feel like a rack does on center.