twistedwedge

I bought the P/A coil over conv. kit for my 87 bird and paired it with the Koni SPA1 adj. drag strut. My prob is that when installed, my strut bottoms out on the top cup after only 2-3" of travel. Now, after driving it for a short period of time and bottoming out, it has totally torn the bearing cup from the strut tower assy. and pushed it into the engine compartment. Does anyone have this conversion kit and have you heard of this problem? Only thing i can think of is there is a little 2" spacer (above the top spring cup) that is in there and maybe that is eatin up some of the strut travel? help please!!

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

what spring are you running. is it the black hal 250lb 10x2.5" dia setup?

i had a similar problem with konis doing that. i had to change my strut and spring rate. not only that but i put on a pair of hunter motorsports billet strut mounts that actually extended my strut slightly more so it made matters worse. when i put the bilstein setup on the car it worked out great. i ended up with the same height but a 3" id on the spring instead, gave it a bit more support too.

do you have a strut tower bar? if not i highly suggest getting one with coilovers.

twistedwedge

the one i have is a QA1 10" length 200lb and it is the 2.5 dia i think.

What strut are you using now? Really, if I can avoid buying new struts I would be much happier cause I dont have the money for them. I was thinkin of buyin some of those caster camber plates from ground control but they are pricey as well... (I think either way im friggin screwed in the money dept)
I appreciate your input man...


BTW: I was kinda hopin that someone on here has beefed up the stockers and maybe could give me some pointers...surely there is quite a few ppl with the coilover setup on this board..?

Chickenman35

Hate to tell you this but I think you've just wasted a bunch of money.

Coil over conversions on our cars is a bad idea ....IMHO.The stock wheel housings were never designed to take suspension spring loads...neither were the top strut mounts.

You can probably make it work on a Drag car....but I wouldn't even think about using a coil-over conversion on a car for street use or corner burnin'.

You will need some sort of solid strut top mount such as Spohn or Ground Control. Then you should triangulate the wheel housings with a strut bar. Then Tig weld ALL of the factory spot welds. Some extra braces to the firewall would also be good.

Biggest problem is that suspension wheelhouse was never designed to take suspension spring vertical loads. Cornering loads yes...spring loads no. I think that eventually the wheel housing will start to fatigue and crack. That's my biggest concern.

MrDude_1

some day, id like to mount a plate over where the fenderwell is, weld it over that area with some tubing, and cutout the fender....
then i would put in coil overs... and have a inner fender liner held in with 1/4 turn fasteners....

until then, i dont see the need to run coil overs. the gain you get from weightloss is offset by the flexyness of the strut mounts.

so on a straight line car, theres no loss..

on a nicely driven street car, like kandys, the loss is minimal.

on a hard driven, autoXing, pothole slamming abusive driven car (like mine ) i wouldnt do it.. risk is greater then the return. (btw i drag race too, but that doesnt matter in this case)

twistedwedge

well thanks for the input guys, unfortunately Im not made of $$$ and cant afford to convert all my stuff back to factory suspension. I would have to take my motor back out and have spring perches mounted to the a-arms and k-member...plus the factory suspension sucks for traction on the street.

Right now I have to try and concentrate on workin with what i have. Im workin on bracing all of the stuff up there, since i dont road race my car and its basically a drag car..im not worried about cornering (big slick with spool+front skinnies without swaybar=no handling) I dont drive the car more than 25-50 miles a week and my front end is light so I really dont think that the stuff is gonna crack or anything. So..if anyone has any useful info for me i would appreciate it!

Chickenman35

Well...you are gonna need some solid top mounts as mentioned. The factory rubber ones won't cut it as you found out. I'd recommend the Spohn units. They are more than up to the task.

Then Tig ( preferred ) or Mig weld all of the factory seams all the way around. They are only spot welded from the factory. That will help considerably and costs little.

That should do it.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

yeah that's a tuff one. i'm running hunter motorsport plates and the hotchkis stb which helps significantly but i never had those problems when i ran konis and the hal 2.5's. are you sure that your spring rate is too light and it's causing the strut to take too much stress which is what's causing your problem?

i'm running 200lb 10x3id eibach ers up front but i have a considerable amount of weight off the car with chromoly everything, fiberglass hood, no a/c, aluminum motor and accessories......i know i had the same problem when the motor wasn't as light and i had the stock hood. the car would do what your talking about however i never had anything rip.

as far as the strut towers...i can see everyones point. i haven't had a problem with mine yet but that doesn't mean it isn't possible i guess afterall if you can think it i'm sure it can happen. if i were worried i would do the extra things necessary too.

greezemonkey

iTrader: (14)

I`m looking at the kit I bought from pro fab and yes mine has a two inch steel tube that sits on top of the spring cup....stock mounts won`t work with these kits I`m assuming?

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

depending on how different it is from pa racing they should.

twistedwedge

No-you have to use the spacer..when you turn the wheels the spring assy needs to turn also. If you didnt run the spacer the top aluminum cup piece would get eaten up by the rubbing that would occur.

What I ended up doing is cutting one of the 2"spacers exactly in half and used one on each side with a washer on top and bottom of the spacer. You really should consider doing this on yours b/c that spacer eats away at the bearing on top, it doesnt ride on the race, hence the need for a washer. Also on bottom it eats into the aluminum spring cup if you dont put a washer down there.

By cutting the spacers and raising the car up 1" in front i gained and addtl 2.5" travel and no longer bottom out

greezemonkey

iTrader: (14)

What if I were to just put washers on each side of the tube, with the spacer tubes being un cut?...and then raise it an additonal inch ?

twistedwedge

I guess you could do that, but when I had those spacers in there at full length i only had about half an inch before the strut bottomed out, i really think you should have at least 2" travel esp if youre gonna drive it on the street. also if you add the washers to the un-cut spacer, youre gonna lose even more travel, essentially youre creating a longer spacer. You dont want to have to raise your car up like a 4wd in the front to have sufficient travel and with that big block up there, you may want to have plenty of travel in case you do a wheelie at the track!

greezemonkey

iTrader: (14)

Okay...got ya Now I see what your saying about the spacer. You still using your stock mounts? others said you gotta have the billet mounts? With cutting off an inch from the spacer, how close is the spring cup from the bottom of the strut mount? Sorry for all the Q`s but you seem to know what`s gonna work and what doesn`t! Your insight is very appreciated

twistedwedge

Im still using the stock mounts. I dont have the $$$ for the billet ones. Ive got like 1/4 inch clearance between the cup and bottom of the strut tower. The tricky thing about doin that washer thing is-unless you can find some big diameter washers with the correct diameter holes in the center you have to buy ones and turn them down and also enlarge the holes to make em work. I just went up to home depot and bought some big washers.

If you look at your strut when its out of the car you will see that it has the threaded section of the rod on top then a smooth portion that fits through the bearing race of the mount. There is a stepped portion after that (which rides on the bearing race underneath). I turned the top washer down so it fits inside the underside of the factory mount, but rides on the race of the bearing. I also enlarged the hole so it sits on that stepped portion of the strut. The bottom washer was tricky also, i turned the outer section down so it fits inside the top of the spring cup and the inner part of the washer so it slides over the thicker portion of the strut rod. I hope this helps Feel free to ask me anything else if you have any more q's.

greezemonkey

iTrader: (14)

okay..sounds like a small enginering feat to make the conversion work properly, but I`ll follow your advise to the tee...I should be doing the k-member a-arms and coil overs in two weeks...next week is the gratiot cruise (my city`s yearly cruise event) it drew over hundred and fifty thousand last year so can`t miss that
I`ll post pics here of the progress as it goes...I plan on installing the a-arms into the k member this weekend.

TTA850

You might want to consider doing some extra bracing/supporting to the strut tower. I'm currently pulling my tubular k-member/a-arms/coilovers out of my car scince I've noticed the fenders buckling and further inspection showed cracks in the seams of the strut towers. Fortunatly it looks like nothing has moved significantly on my car yet but it would have definatly gotten worse if I left it alone.

This, by the way, is after 3 years of street driving(on probrobly some of the worst roads in the country)and many, many passes at the track. Still something to consider for those doing this modification.

Steve

greezemonkey

iTrader: (14)

Do you have any pic`s of the cracks and buckling? I`m sure alot of people would like to see this including myself. If bracing were to be installled to support the strut towers where would be the best places and what would you use to brace with?

german-motorsport

Sorry to hear that a good idea busted in bubbles!
In a time of economic slow down dont expect everyone in here to cry!
Comments from people that dont own this unit or a similar types are well known on this board!
I wonder that noone flamed you for getting PA stuff!

Subject
...i drove for a short while?!Seems long enough to butcher the domebearing holder!
The knowledge to find the right setup on a coilover is seen on Tv on race weekends...you need more than money!
The comment you dont have money for the Hunter strut mount ist straight talk, but with a battle cruiser 1500Kg to 1700Kg
youll need one of those!Try at the many copy cats that jumped on his (HMS) design.If you enter the Waldorf Astoria dont expect to get a wine for a buck!
Get ya facts like weight , spring rate and shock data the start to cook!

The Art Mo coil over sys. uses a special plate!Was your set up new?
I you have a stock ride , i support tt850 with bracing.
Call Pa and asked for some support, as we know them from emails they are willing to pass tech support!
1150KG ride in the pic, no trouble since install (lots of own design front support and aftermarket stuff)

Dewey316

its too bad, that in all these years of you telling people this, you have never posted a picture other than one.

what bracing do you have?

german-motorsport

Read carefully between the lines!
Each owner has its purpose and uses his car in a different manner.
Tech support was often misused on this board !
People and companies jumped on the train and earned smiles!
Funny that new ideas where banned or slowed down by politics and later showed up on here looking like the old idea somebody had but did not had the support in the background!

Call Hunter for design of his strut tower mount!

Think about the " brake war" and how we were all pushed to by a expensive Pbr piston kit when others were already building 4 and 6 piston stuff!

We have different laws in germany! On most parts of the Autobahn there is no speed limit, so we sure build in a different way!
Where you people still ad TFT and other disney stuff...LOL we need to keep up with GT3 and Slk 55 twin blower!
The club is like a mc we stick with each other and do our own wrenching!
The willwood and Art Mo kit was done in the late 80´´s when we started racing!
Since then we put Ap 4 and 6 pod brakes on our cars and never stopped modding them!

Where are now on the 18" rim topic and again working thru a storm of mares and other bla bla1 This again atopic where everybody has different ways of looking at it!
Our way damm low and still fit the 10x18 in the rear no rubbing and still lookin stock to the avg unknown!

Lets end this with a positiv remark!

the guy started something good (Coil over) but did not look around the corner!
To find a solution to his problem he need to find the facts and than decide what to do
1. race only
2. race and street...always the poor man version with handicaps in both track and street
3. only street!
after he knows what to do the rest is rather simple!

Sure he can swap setups inbetween, but that alot of money!

Dewey316

i'm not going to argue that. i am the first to admit that some of the best tech on this site is in the old archives. The question is what extra bracing has been done? obviously your need for extra bracing brings us back to the same old point. just tossing coil-overs on is not a great solution. we all know that. so through everyone a freakin' bone. for years we have heard you talk about how much better your setup is, bring the f***ing tech. what do you gain from coilovers? the camber curve is not changed. you lose some weight, that is obvious. but where is the majority of the weight coming from, the a-arm or the spring/strut combo . how much weight have you added to the car, in trying to re-enforce the upper mount? and where in the car is it located. i bet when all is said and done, with the extra bracing. you weight about the same, but you moved all the weight up high. and you went backwards. The minute you actualy show what it is you have done, i'll be all ears.

BTW, if you look in teh archives, you will see there is at least one member here who is running 18x11 on all 4 corners.

vsixtoy

I second what John said- Heck< I have requested the same info from the German guy in the past!

Post pics or shut your mouth- I feed up with this BS. I came to the assumption a year ago that the picture isn't even your car. And please also answer the question-"How the h*ll do you run that car roadracing with the non-vented carbon discs?" You're full of crap.

Edit: my puzzling quote for the day "Why Jews buy German cars is beyond me- don't they remember?"

TTA850

I fabricated some supports for the stock strut mounts because they were bending first(enough to see the spring between the mount and the strut tower). Here's a pic of the supported mount:



But the problem for me wasn't the strut mounts but rather the strut tower itself, in that I belive it needs significant reinforcing to be able to withstand supporting the weight of the car. I guess for limited street use the coilovers might be ok but I drive my car everywhere including to and from the track and I feel that without extra support alot of damage can result.

I dont have any pics of just the fenders but in this shot you can see the ripples in the fender just over and towards the front of the wheel:



The two buckles and one crack are in the same spots on both fenders however only the drivers side inner fenderwell(basicly the underside of the strut tower)is showing signs of cracking and movement. Hopefully I didnt push it out of whack too much and it will be ok with the stock stuff back in there, which is what I'm doing as we speak.

Steve

B4Ctom1

well I wont be using mine for any cornering so I hope that helps some. I have also cut over 150# from the front of my car with another 140 or so in the works.

I thank you guys for making note of this issue and specifically member Anesthes for referring me to this thread.

I may reinforce my towers as needed, as for the cups they are gone. I found these as my possible solution:

http://www.hotpart.com/index.php?p=s...f513a7b359d5b7







I will need to make, or get made, a spacer, to go between the sperical top bearing and the aluminum top coil over spring cup.

SLP IROC-Z

iTrader: (1)

does anyone think spohns setup would cure the cracking/buckling problem because it distributes the weight over a larger area or is it of no help/

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Bump....
bringing this back from the dead.

CrazyHawaiian

I dont have any experience with coilovers but reading through this one thing came to mind that supprisingly nobody mentioned. If the strut is contacting the mount when the suspension loads, why not just raise the ride height? Give the suspension more room to travel before contact. If that is not an option then maybe stiffer spring rates to limit travel? Or maybe if thats not what you want to do, how about those bumpstops for the strut itself? Koni makes them. Seems this post went from an issue with ride height and bottoming out to a discussion on strut tower strength. I agree the strength of the towers should be considered but maybe everyone strayed away from the original topic. Contact of the strut against the mount probably causes enough stress to cause the damage described in the original post. If there is no contact perhaps the results would be different. I think german-motorsport makes good points, even if everyone wants to give him a hard time for not revealing his secrets or posting more pictures. I would consider a coilover conversion an extreme suspension modification and when you go extreme on anything you raise the possibility of running into unforseen problems. Strength of the tower seems to be questionable, so does the strength of the stock strut mount. These are examples of what could be unforseen problems you might have to solve. Talking with the manufacturer of the product is probably the best place to start when you have these kind of problems...

BlueBeast

anyone have the bmr kit? i ordered the k member a arms and coil overs and just got them today. my car is bascially a drag car hardley any street. so should i put a strut tower brace on it? if anyone has this kit have you run into any problems like what is mentioned in the top of this subject? just looking for some heads up problems before i start, so i can fix before they become problems.

rtkjadams

iTrader: (2)

"BlueBeast" I have the BMR K-member, A-Arms, amd Coil Over Kit. As I began installing I became alittle concerned about how the upper strut mount is held in place. The factory uses that flismy part that holds down the strut mount. I was thinking of getting some thicker metal and some grade 8 bolts and making a larger peice that would spread the load out more. Just like the Spon setup does.

Also, I would have thought that they should have included a bearing of some type to allow the spring to rotate freely instead of binding and then poping free as you turn the wheel.



Ray

BlueBeast

popping free as you turn the wheel that doesnt sound to good to me. how was the install, i saw some washers that is supposed to be either under the k member or between the frame and k member whats all that about? did you do this with your motor in the car or out? is there any product out there at will correct this proeblem of popping? how about the mount things that are sold by pa racing or spohn? any help will be good before i go diving into this. this link is what part i am talking about
http://www.spohn.net/product.cfm?productid=1542
thanks

Shagwell

- the strut plates could easily be made. - I used 3rdgen struts/spindles in my old man's 68 camaro drag car. We used the coil-over sleeves and 350lb springs(he doesn't need stored energy) anyhow, I mounted the top of the strut using a 5/8 spherical rod-end(heim joint). Had to slightly grind the strut rod for it to fit, but worked well. We just solid mounted the strut becuase the control arms we built are adjustable, allowing for caster/camber adjustment. - Point being, you could easily weld a piece of pipr to a plate and then weld the spherical in/to the top of the pipe.(crude in type, use a little imagination) Make for a cheap, strong strut plate.....

xplane

strut plates would do nothing to stop what TTA850 has had happen the only way to stop that would be a brace kinda like this that would take the weight off of the sheet metal and transfer it through the tubing to the frame rail to where it would have had the pressure of the spring in stock form. then use a STB to keep the braces from turning up and you would have a very strong setup and i dont think it would be very heavy at all. At least not much more than a aftermarket K-member would remove.

xplane

heres a better view of what i mean on making keeping the braces from turning up and alowing the froame to sag. i think that a STB would have also helped to have reduced te bending you are seeing cause the strut tower will do the same movement i am talking about in my brace. the STB forces the towers apart which prevents the weight of the car from trying to push the strut towers strait up from the frame rather than at an angle which would increase the distance from top to bottom creating the affect you have on your car the STB would have made the towers stay at an angle. at least that is what i see from your pics and looking at my car. Geeze im long winded. if i am incorrect just ignore me like the rest do.

B4Ctom1

I figured small braces which go in front of the ST to the false frame in front of and behind the ST.

CarterCarbureto

iTrader: (1)

bump this is a good thread

TTA850

xplane that looks like a very good idea

Steve

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

by the time you brace it enough you'll have gained back the weight that you saved by going to coil overs...

B4Ctom1

my chassis guy noted to me that he puts the bars from the cage through the firewall and intruding into the strut tower to avoid these kinds of issues (with a single bar) and he does this on coil over or non coil over cars for rigidity. Then he showed me an example in his shop. the bar just sort of 3/4 of the way "imbeds" into and kind of passes through the strut tower.

nape

iTrader: (1)

I'm thinking about making a coilover setup and found this thread on a search.

I was just wondering if any of the posters ever came up with the pics that showed where the strut tower started to fail.

My car is going to be a strictly road race car so there doesn't have to be many compromises. I've already welded around the top of the strut tower to the sheet metal below it and the rest of the seams will get similar treatment, as well as a bar coming from the roll cage to the top of the firewall as B4CTom described.

I'd like to find out if I need any more bracing before I start tearing things up.

Thanks in advance.

MrDude_1

my, how things have changed...

(the vert is a sub 3000lbs straightline car now...)

nape

iTrader: (1)

Haha, sound like we swapped formats.

-Reformed straightliner

nape

iTrader: (1)

So none of the original posters still have this thread subscribed?

Outlaw28

i know its been asked but no none on this post has said anything about it yet...will the spohn setup work better due to the thick reinforcment plates and by spreading the wieght out over a larger area...so pretty much the majority of you are saying its pointless to switch to coilovers...have u ran coilovers or is it just ur opinion from reading about it...???

nape

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure if I'll have the coin to run coil overs right away, but hopefully make the switch later in the year.

I just got the car back from the fabricator and had him tie the strut towers into the cage. I'll try to get some pics up in the next week or so.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Back From the dead. Just doing some more digin on coil overs myself and like to see if anything has come of this situation.

Havin access to tubin benders,cnc,lazer cuter, etc. I plan to make some kind of plate for the under side as mentioned above, etc..

being its gonna be a more of a weekend car and for 1/4 mile and a weekend out out on the crusin I picked up this setup really cheap.
http://www.cecoatings.com/images/Car...strut/both.jpg
http://www.cecoatings.com/images/Car...trutmounts.jpg
http://www.cecoatings.com/images/Car.../aerospace.jpg