Frains90RS

The play in my steering wheel has gotten to the point where I want to do something about it. I tried searching and it appears that most people rebuild their steering boxes or change them out to the better ratio ones on the Z's and WS6's. I recently read an article in a mag (dont remember which one) but they did an aftermarket swap on the steering box to get better handling and feel from the steering. They went with a flaming river unit and shaft and changed everything out. What am I looking at here if I want to get my car back to (at least) stock handling form? Would you recommend aftermarket (which ones) or a swap for better ratio units? Has anyone else done this to help out their steering?
Thanks for the help.
-Efrain.

OneBadZ4U

Efrain, I know where you are comming from. I had a similar problem. Too much play in the gear box. I will start by stating that I am not a "Technical" guy. However, I will say my experience in this matter is extensive. IMO do not buy an aftermarket box. Do not have your box rebuilt. Try to locate a good used box out of a camaro or firebird with the GM stamped number 2600525. This box has the hailed 2.25 turns from lock to lock.

When I started my repair for my box, I figured I'd call Carquest or AC delco. Here's what I know. I could not get a rebuilt 2.25 Turn box. I got 2.75 turn boxes. It didn't matter if I asked for firm suspension, soft suspension or even gave my RPO. All the boxes were 2.75 turns. My next turn was to AGR, I saw them in Summit Racing. I called them direct. I told them I wanted a 2.25 turn box for my IROC. They seemed baffled. They sold me on there high performance box 12:1 ratio(This is where my not Technical comes in.) I have no idea what 12:1 means when it comes from turns from lock to lock. They said it was the best made, best ratio, nothing better. I wanted only the best. I recieved it and it was three turns from lock to lock!!!! I don't know about you, but I aint drivin' no wagon! I sent it back. They offered to rebuild mine. Sounded great. I put a special mark on it, sent it, got it back. It had no mark, and now my 2.25 turn box was three turns?! Safe to say I was P.Oed. I went through this two more times until finally reaching the owner. The onwer said there was no such thing as a 2.25 box, can't make a 2.25 box period.

Bottom line, got a junkyard box 2600525(after 6 tries, they also don't listen). The box had no play. I got my 2.25 turn box, tight steering and a smile again. So if you want the best steering, you need that box number. Unless someone else has a link to aquire the correct turn, rebuilt boxes, the junk yard is the way to go.


Thanks for lettin I guy ramble
Rob

P.S. I am open to learn the difference between Turns from lock to lock and the ratio thing. I just can't understand how it would be better to have a better ratio box with more turns.

Frains90RS

Thanks for replying OneBad. I have a good source for used parts so looks like Im going to go hunting for a quick ratio box. How much did it run you from the boneyard? I hope it doesn't set me back too far, I also got my eye on some 13" C4 brakes and then hopefully my suspension/steering/brakes will be done and I can move on to the drivetrain and engine.
Thanks.
-Efrain.

OneBadZ4U

Efrain, I paid $75.00 for my box. However, AGR repaid me for the cost. Remember, it took me 6 times to get the right box. When you talk/or go to the salvage yard you are looking for a gear box from a 3RD Generation F-Body. Specifically the box has a GM stamped number 2600525. This number is located on the top of the box near the four bolt cover. The number runs paraell to the the fram rail. Good luck stand firm with your requirements. Don't let anyone tell you that one box is just as good as another. You want a box with 2.25 Turns from lock to lock and/will have 2600525 stamped on the top. Trust me 3/2.75/2.5 turns are just not the same.


I hope this helps.

Rob

Frains90RS

If I had known that the quick ratio boxes could be had for under $100, I would have upgraded my box when I rebuilt my front end! I will take care of it ASAP. Thanks again Rob for all the input. One more general question about the upgrade for anyone who's done it. Since I have an RS, should I replace bumpstops/control arms for other ones to avoid problems with rubbing, or will my current ones work? (Note- I also have 9.5" wide wheels, though I'm not sure it matters.)
-Efrain.

laiky

i only know of one way to get the box done right, i'm saving for it as we speak. Lee Manufacturing in california. They do boxes for NASCAR and seem to be able to do anything you want to the box.

i don't think thay have a web site and i don't have the number but there in the back of every hotrod mag

Frains90RS

Lee Power Steering
11661 Penleton St
Sun Valley, CA 91352-2502
818/768-0371
Could this be the same one? Cause if it is, I'm literally 10 min away.This would work out nicely. :lala:
-Efrain

laiky

yep, i'm pretty sure thats it!

rottonj

Now I had to go out and check which on my 1988 formula has , so I checked and I think you are missing a number. Mine says 26000525, just incase you are using a exchange number.

RegaPlanet

A company called Turn One is also great for rebuilding and modifiying steering boxes. Their prices are quite resasonable as well.

Preloader

Couldn't help but notice that nobody brought up the common frame crack/ steering mount problem possibly causing the excessive play. When the frame is cracked where the box mounts, the box will turn alittle before wheels start to.
To check, Turn your key enough to get out of steering lock. With the engine off, have a friend turn the wheel back and forth, just to the point where the wheels start to turn. Watch the steering box. A little movement is typical, but if the box twists up and down substantially, your frame is prolly cracked around the 3 bolts that mount the box. You ca find repair info if you search a little.
Another thing to watch during this inpsection is if the driver side subframe rail is moving around. If it is, installing a wonderbar will help.
Also if your Maro has over approx. 120k then it's likely that the steering linkages are worn: centerlink, inner and outer tie-rods, adj. sleeves. This will introduce alot of play into the steering and response.
I had every problem I just mentioned above on my car. After each thing I fixxed I noticed a major improvement in steering response, especially after replacing the steering linkages. Hope this helps.

OneBadZ4U

Thanks for catching that mistake rottonj. I rechecked my data and your right 26000525. In regards to other suppliers that can overhaul or get you the box that meets "our" specifications, I am very suspect. Because I've been burned, I just need more proof before I am willing to try again. I went through a month and a half with AGR. Doesn't AGR advertise in all the hot rod magazines too?? Anyway, best of luck to all.

88IROCARMY

I had my IROC box rebuilt by Lee Engineering. Great service and the box was better than new. They will harden parts and put in different valves for better road feel and response. They are better than AGR. Fast turn-around on the service.

I highly recommend them.
P.S. I attempted to rebuild my own box with a rebuild kit, it was difficult and the seals blew out. Removing and installing the Teflon O-rings in very difficult.

I posted a message about 18 months ago.
Good Luck

drain89

iTrader: (10)

That's what I plan on doing. How much did they charge you?

MrDude_1

you just made a very COMMON mistake.


the number of turns the wheel does has nothing to do with the steering ratio.

think of it this way.

if there were no stops in the box and the tires could pivoit 360* you could keep spinning the steering wheel forever.

the steering RATIO is how much the tires turn compared to how much you turn the steering wheel.

how many turns LOCK to LOCK is how much you can turn the wheel until the stops in the box keep you from turning it more.

thoes stops only exist so you dont turn the tire too far and rub the tire into the wheel, or overstress the steering components.

if you took the same RATIO box from a stock car, one with wide front tires, and one with narrow front tires, the one with narrow front tires would turn the wheel more because of the stops...
but they have the same steering ratio.


that AGR box is pretty damn quick.. you should have kept it.

CaysE

MrDude,

So you're saying that when OneBadZ4U had the AGR box installed and it turned 3 times lock to lock, it turned the wheels farther than a stock box that goes 3 turns lock to lock?

You can get an AGR box and adjust the stops to only go 2.25 turns? Would this be the same (or better) as a 2600525 box?

MrDude_1

yup.

CrazyHawaiian

But what if you wanted the wheels to turn further than stock? For my sport it might help be recover at extreme angles. Is the 12:1 ratio the best you can get? Do you guys know if the stops are easy to adjust (do you have to blow the box apart to change them?). I can make sure the wheels dont rub, but I'm not sure how to measure the stresses on the steering linkage. I will be using the Spohn front end rebuild kit and Baer bumpsteer kit.

drain89

iTrader: (10)

Crazy.....you know the more I read about your setup the more I realize how similar ours are. I never meant to build a drift car, but I'll definately have to find a big parking lot and try it.

Good question though. I was wondering the same thing.
I believe the quick ratio f-body boxes were 12.7:1, so if AGR's is 12:1 it should be faster.
I know that when I had 255's up front, my IROC would rub when parallel parking.
So if you use the AGR box and put bigger tires or bigger wheels and tires....I imagine that there would be some rubbing problems. Maybe we could put the iroc stops in the AGR box.
From talking to AGR....the torsion bar is what determines the feel of the boxes on how stiff they are (or how much effort it takes to turn). I've heard AGR's is soft, so I'd probably order one with the 235 torsion bar. That should give it the same feel as the IROC box I'm used to.
I didn't think to ask them if I could just send in my IROC box and them re-do it but with the 12:1 ratio.

OneBadZ4U

Thanks for the info MrDude_1. I appriciate your tact. Most threads I've read where people state incorrect or misinformed info get there heads bitten off. I must say I am still a little confused. I understand where your coming from about LOCK placement. I think I understand your point on RATIO. Correct me if I'm wrong. In theory, if you took to identical boxes with 2.25 turns from lock to lock, Lets say box "A" has a 12.7 to 1 ratio and box "B" is 12 to 1. Box "B" would travel further(Distance) in the 2.25 turns. Meaning Box "A" Pitman Arm travels lets say 45 Degrees then Box "B" would travel 50 Degrees(just a number for topic sake).

Am I headed in the right direction??

MrDude_1

The steering ratio is a number of degrees that the steering wheel must be turned to pivot the front wheels 1 degree. The higher the steering ratio (30:1 for example). the easier it is to steer the vehicle, all other things being equal. However, the higher steering ratio, the more the steering wheel has to be turned to achieve steering. With a 30:1 steering ratio, the steering wheel must turn 30 degrees to pivot the front wheels 1 degree


does that clear it up for you? i tried explaining it myself, but i re-read it and thought it was confusing, so i pasted the above paragraph from somthing i found on google... i think it explained it better.

MrDude_1

you would probly want to cut the steering stops on the a arm back (not off, but back) then just watch it at full lock under the car and make sure nothings going to hit anything else.

the stress would be if you didnt have any stops and you kept turning even when it starts hitting stuff.

drain89

iTrader: (10)

I don't necessarily agree with the statement that the ratio determines effort. The rate of the torsion bar is what really determines effort in gm steering boxes. As explained to me by AGR, they said that they can put a 180 bar in and I can turn the 12:1 box with my pinkie, or they can put a 235 that will require a regular grip. They could do the same thing to a 16:1 box too, and they'd have the same effort. The boxes would just turn at a different rate of speed.

MrDude_1

i agree, but if they left everything in the same, the quicker steering is higher effort. in a properly designed quick ratio power steering system, you may not be applying the extra power, but the engine is.


but this is a power steering system, so it can be as easy or hard as you want it. your choice.

OneBadZ4U

I just wanted to get back to the Ratio issue again. Mr.Dude_1, that google paste worked well. I have a much better understanding now. Just want to Phrase one more question or comment. If we go with the 12 degrees on the steering wheel = 1 degree wheel turn, then a 12.7 gear box turns the wheels 28.35 per 1 complete turn of the steering wheel. A 12.0 gear box turns the wheels 30 degrees per revolution. The box I recieved from AGR was a 12:1 ratio that had three turns from lock to lock or 90 degrees of wheel travel. The old box makes the wheels travel 63.79 degrees(2.25 turns x 28.35 degrees). In theory if the AGR box with 12:1 ratio was put on a camaro, then it would hit the steering bump stops before completly utilizing the full range of the gear box. Right??

I would like to add, I have no problem with AGR. There customer service was excellent. Eventhough communication didn't go well, they did treat me fair and never intentionally decieved me. If it seems otherwise I am sorry.

drain89

iTrader: (10)

AGR seemed really reputable to me when I spoke with them. I liked the fact that I could speak to a tech rep when I called, whereas with Lee, I got his wife who is really just the "gatekeeper". He was never in when I called. I know both of them do boxes for top nascar teams, and I know I've seen more articles with Lee in them, but AGR's willingness to talk to me impressed me alot.

89 Iroc Z

Here is yet another place that will rebuild the steering box. http://www.powersteering.com/products/

CrazyHawaiian

Thanks for the info Mr.Dude. And hey Drain, lemme know how it goes when you hit up the parking lot. I think you're gonna have some fun! hehe!!

drain89

iTrader: (10)

I will Crazy!

MrDude_1

yea, if theres a mechanical bump stop before you get to your full lock, then it would stop there... you would just be holding alot of stress on your steering tierods, centerlink, ect

OneBadZ4U

Thanks again MrDude_1. I think I understand now. Here's the last thing. The box I got from AGR was 12:1 ratio box. It had three turns lock to lock. When I put it on the car, the box completed its full range of travel before hitting the bump stops. Basically, either the AGR box I got did not have a 12:1 ratio or our box 26000525 has an even better ratio than 12.7:1.

How can one be sure of what they are getting? And that question is my main point. I have had six(2 AGR, 1 Cardon, 1 '84 Camaro used box and 2 x 26000525) different gear boxes on my car in the span of a month and a half. I know what I like. The 26000525 box was the best response, fewest turns(of the steering wheel) and well the one that worked best.

I think its important to make sure that if you are getting a new gear box or having one overhauled, make it clear to who is doing it what you expect. Chances are if you don't pay attention to what you expect, you won't get what you want.

Just my 2 cents. I have been down the road(it was a long road) before. I just want to help others get the gear box they are looking for.

Frains90RS

And here I thought this thread was dead. Well, I went over to House of Camaro today and picked up a quick ratio box (26000525) off a 92Z. In case any of you don't know who that is, the owner's name is Thomas and he's awesome to deal with. Check his feedback here: https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=225362 It looks like I'll be off to Lee's very soon to have my box checked out and installed. A whole ten minutes of driving . Once I get it in I'll see just what's going to be required to keep my 275/40 tires from being destroyed. I'll keep ya posted and thanks again to all keepin the thread alive and all of the info and help.
-Efrain.:lala:

drain89

iTrader: (10)

That's great, if he changes the stops or any other parts see if you can get a part number off of them before he puts them in.

82TA

I am looking for the same box too. The research that i discovered is the quickest box that GM ever made is 12.7 to 1 period. The 12:1 comes from a quick reference term for the 12.7:1. Ask any person who rebuilds these professionaly. My car had 2.5 stop to stop, but its a 14.1 with VARABLE ratio, not constant.Mainly because its a f body box, the stops are 2.25, 2.5 or 3. Alot of the f and g body cars have bigger stops, 3 or more. If you were to put a fbody box in a g or a body, it would have a large turn radius, and couldnt make U turns very well.The 2.5 and 2.25 stops were used for f body cars, so the tires wouldnt rub the inner fenders, from what i understand. The best box IMO is the IROC, GTA, or WS6 equiped. IT will have the 12.7:1 and a CONSTANT RATIO. YOU can take a box that has a 12.7:1 ratio, and replace the stops so it turns however you wish. You will have to find someone to build it for you that way. There is a place in MO that is going to build mine.I think their thread was posted in here earlier. NO more reman stuff for me, you just never know what your going to get, after you turn in you core.

OneBadZ4U

Well said. That last line is like gold baby!

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

If you use the AGR box you have to ask for it with an S(i think) at the end of the part #.Otherwise the AGR box will make 3 turns lock to lock.Thats in case its used on something other than a 3rd gen car(which tend to have a lot more room in the wheel wells than 3rd gens).AGR makes them w/out stops.You have to ask for stops to be put in.The stops DONT change/make the ratio.They just keep the tires from rubbbing into the body/suspension/etc.Some 3rd gens had boxes w/thinner stops(like stated above) depending on what tires they came with stock.The major diff was with the 2 style boxes.The GOOD boxes had the 4 bolt square cover on top.The std box used a ROUND cover on top w/a retainer ring to hold it down.As far as the square covers go w/regard to ratios 12.7 & 14:1 is correct(round cover boxes were much slower,llike 16 or 18:1),but the # of turns(Lk to Lk) is determined by the STOPS not the ratio.14:1 was usually found in earlier 3rd gens(mostly Zs,T/As,maybe RS).12.7:1 boxes were used later on,sometimes found in GTAs,IROCs,1LEs.Ive got an AGR box in my 84Z & its 2.5 lock to lock(same as stock)I went with 2.5 since i still had my 15x7 wheels when i got this.Otherwise i would have asked for thicker stops),BUT you have to make sure you ask for stops to be installed if you go with AGR.IIRC an S has to added to the end of the part#(S meaning stops)w/out the S you will get NO STOPS giving you 3 full turns.Lee manufacturing can do the same for you,BUT they charge ALOT more.Both places used GM cases w/completely NEW parts & ( i believe)both build them w/12:1 ratios.

Frains90RS

Well, I picked up the rebuilt box yesterday after dropping it off last Tuesday. Took a little longer and cost a little more than I had hoped for, but not more than I anticipated.

Total cost to me was just over $250- most of it being labor. I did tell Thomas(owner) over the phone that I was having some rubbing problems with my 9.5" wheels as is, so he adjusted the steering stops according to his calculations. Really great to deal with, he said if I had any problems to just bring it back for further adjustments. He wasn't there however, when I picked the box so the only part #'s I was able to get are the ones they list on the invoice. Don't know if these are GM #'s or Lee's in-house ones.
1 No. 20580- Master Seal Kit
2 No. 40260- Flat Race Ball Screw
1 No. 40577- Plated Hardware Exch. Kit
1 No. 20740- OS Piston Ball Set
1 No. 40291- Internal Stop Exchange
Now, to get it installed.:lala:
-Efrain.

88IROCARMY

You will like the Lee's rebuild box, they do a great job.