Gen X Mar0

iTrader: (1)

I just installed my PA Racing Tubular A-arms and after driving it i see that the springs pop like hell inside the perch. I just installed eibach sportlines and I am assuming that once the powdercoating wears off the a arms and the springs that this will go away? Anyone else experience the same thing when they installed them???

If not these damn things are going back........

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

what kind of poping? are you certain, i just ask these things because other areas can cause those noises.

Gen X Mar0

iTrader: (1)

I have new ball joimts, idler arm, tie rods, centerlink, sway bar bushings, struts, strut mounts, you name it and its new on the car...And all that other stuff was on there prior to installing the a arms and now comes the noise. I am thinking that perhaps the perch was designed for stock springs and not my eibach sportlines. I called PA today and he said he suggested to wrap the bottom coil in a rubber taoe....

Dewey316

do you have the rubber isolator on the top of the spring?

Gen X Mar0

iTrader: (1)

yup, basically what I am gonna do is do the same thing to the bottom of the spring and hope that fixes it....

BORLAZ06

damn i ordered the same setup u have in ur car. i hope i dont have the same problem.

Gen X Mar0

iTrader: (1)

if you have aftermarket springs you will...my guess is they are sized just right for stock springs and I got a little play with my eibach sportlines....

BORLAZ06

well that sucks ***....maybe i can find someone to add more metal to the bottom and top of the coil.

CaysE

Actually, I believe the perches were designed for front drag springs, and the a-arms themselves are meant for drag use, not street. Drag springs in front are taller than stock when uncompressed, I believe. You may find you'll run into problems with those a-arms in the future if you use the car for street driving/racing.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

shouldn't run into problems. the a arms have nothing to do with street or drag use. either they have the perch or they don't depending on what you chose, in your case they do. same thing with the springs, the rates change but the diameter of the spring should be the same and it should adjust accordingly. i had the same problem with my stock suspension when i put the prokit on and i just needed to add new rubber isolators.

doesn't sound like too much of a problem but a problem none the less and i definately understand why you want to fix it. unfortunately the things that worked for myself you've already replaced. hope you figure it out.

BORLAZ06

so new isolaters will fix the problem?

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

not in all instances. they would definately help and of course metal to metal won't grip as much. if i were trying to fix the problem i would use a thin rubber pad of the same material on the bottom. those springs should not move, metal to metal noise would have to be accepted but to have them move or pop out of place isn't good.

how long have you had it installed too?

BORLAZ06

dont have it installed yet. jus trying to see what i can expect.

Gen X Mar0

iTrader: (1)

I am convinced that just putting something to stop the direct metal to metal will solve the problem. Drove the car today in the rain and the lubrication of just being wet made the a arms go from popping over every little bump to nothing at all....Little rubber tape to cushion and fill in any slight gap will do the trick....

CaysE

Kandied, I've read all over this forum that those a-arms are for drag use only, and that they crack under more stressful street use.

Gen X Mar0

iTrader: (1)

i've read every thread reguarding them on this board.....everyone speculates that they should break but no one can name anyone who has had a problem with them.....mine seems strong and have very nice, strong welds....I was also told by PA that should anything go wrong with them they would fix it for free for however long i had em....

I dont see them breaking....

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

Gen X Mar0, thank you for being one of the few who have paid attention.

CaysE, nothing personal but not a single person who has claimed to have seen or experienced such problems has shown proof. i'm not biased on the event and i'm all for actual proof but no one has come forth with such.

show me a cracked k-member from pa or any one else who has designed something similar and i will certainly not say a word. there are alot of rumors but those of us who actually have the product have no complaints...........odd isn't it.

MrDude_1

you have to keep in mind that the strength of it is dependant upon:

the design
the materials
the quality of the workmanship

everyone who has held thoes in their hands said it is just as strong as the stock ones.... the design doesnt look that bad, and everyone has reported top notch quality work....


so i think at this point, its safe to assume minimal probs with street use.

MrDude_1

heh forgot to post what i ment to when i entered the thread.. hehe..




if the lubercation from the rain alone helped, why dont you just put a lil grease in there and see if that makes it go away?

Gen X Mar0

iTrader: (1)

that would be a temp fix....i would have to do that every so often....the rubber would be a perm fix....

I am also looking into a urathane paste of some sort that 3M makes that dries to be like a poly bushing.....

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

this probably sounds out of line but are your a arms torqued down properly to the k-member? i have seen a few that were over tightened which caused the car to not only react different but make similar noises.

Dave Y

for a rubber insolator, use a piece of heater hose that fits over the spring, slide it on so it makes one full coil

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

that's a good idea....cut it just right and you won't have to worry about it moving when installing. just don't go to thick.

BORLAZ06

what should it be torqued to?

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

i don't know the specs off hand....call pa racing i'm sure they can help alot easier.

BORLAZ06

good idea. thanks.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

65 FT LBS I believe

Gen X Mar0

iTrader: (1)

I honesty didnt torque it to a specific number....just kinda made it as hard to move by hand as it was before.....i'll look into that but i am sure that this is coming from the spring....


i like the heater hose idea........

REVLIMIT

I think the atcual reason that its making so much noise isnt the spring but the design of the a arm. If you look at the stock a arm the spring sits inside of a little ditch. Its got that ring in the middle to hold it still and a ring around the outside to hold it. Seems the pa racing a arms only have a ring in the middle. So I think that hte spring is probably moving around alittle and thats causing the noise. I dono I could be wrong but thats just my guess by looking at the a arms.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

most of us are running the coilover setup but the few (2) who have spring perches have no problems.

Gen X Mar0

iTrader: (1)

I know its not the design of the springs. The reason it is doing what it does is because the diameter of the bottom coil of my eibach springs is slightly bigger than a stock spring. And yes if the perch was indented i think it would be a much better design, I thought about going there but i will see what happends this weekend with whatever I wrap the coil in....

And there is no "ring" on the stock a arms, just a sort of dip that keeps the spring in place with one part closest to the motor that has a little tab to secure it in place....

copperhead110

I should probably be quiet because it looks like you are on the right track for fixing the popping noise but.....

I had the front springs changed along with some other front end parts on my camaro a long while back. After I got it back, there was a lot of popping from the passenger side front. My father and I suspected the front spring for a long time. Then we decided to grease the front end. It was the lower ball joint that was making the popping noise. The new ball joint didn't have grease in it.

I don't that's your problem because you mentioned the a-arms were changed last.

That's probably not your problem, but if it is that's a real easy fix.

Gen X Mar0

iTrader: (1)

thanks for the input.....

i did grease the new ball joint that came in the a arms...The only reason I am stuck on it being the springs is cause before i replaced everything on the front end, it popped, and kept popping till I finally replaced everything....they would pop whether it rained or was dry, obviously cause they are bushings.....

but now i have new sprigns in new perches and I am getting the same pop one both sides. And the one time i rained it went away, i say because the perch was lubricated and although the spring was still shifting around ever so slightly, it was able to slip around rather than be metal on metal.

The coincidence of the noise starting the second I instaled the arms and took it off the lift is proof enough for me...I am gonna tackle the project tody and let you guys know how it goes....

BretD 88GTA

I'd be curious to hear updates down the road from those of you running the PA Racing tubular A-arms. I have always been under the impression they were not designed for street or road race use and that they are drag race only.

Tom K. and I had the opportunity to visit Hotchkis 3 or 4 years ago and get a full tour of their facilty. While we were there we asked them about making street use tubular A-arms for the 3rd gen F-body. The reply we got was that they wouldn't offer them.

Hotchkis' feeling was that due to the high load stress the A-arms see there would too much R&D involved to ensure they were safe for street use. Based on that, they said IF they were to try to offer them they couldn't make them affordable. They estimated their pricing to be like $1200.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

plenty of people running them with lots of miles on them...most people who purchase such a thing aren't putting them on 30,000 mile a year daily drivers so chances of getting those numbers are low. while everyone else waits the rest of us will enjoy them.

BretD 88GTA

If they are holding up well that's good to hear. I'm waiting to see what Steve Spohn's design is like.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

i think you should if you don't like a particular design, its nice to have options......those who might be looking should understand that the versions that are out do work for the street/strip use and with slight modifications could be used for roadracing but modifications all the same.

Gen X Mar0

iTrader: (1)

I have torqued these things down to the 66lbs that chevy calls for, i have made rubber isolators for the bottom, greased everything and it is still making a noise.....these damn thingd are going back to PA......

They must just not work with my aftermarket springs.....I have replaced everything else in the car and the car was quiet and tight right before i bought the a arms....as soon as these went on I have had the popping on both sides of the car and i cant figure out how to fix it......Only thing left I can think of is the factory bolts for the a arms are too small and the a arms is moving there.....


either way these things are pissing me off.......

BORLAZ06

man that sucks...im goin to fix that probelm by adding extra metal to the bottom and top coil so it makes less play around where the coil goes into. i 'believe' i can make it work. its part of hot rodding.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

i agree that most things are not direct bolt to fit no matter what. however if you are that unhappy send them back. maybe they messed up, maybe not but there is no reason to make things miserable for yourself.

good luck with it.

MrDude_1

that sounds like BS to me.


they make A arms for several street cars. alot of them are even heavier cars then Fbodys.


whats diffrent then?

BretD 88GTA

The difference lies in the fact that the cars they currently make A-arms for use both upper and lower A-arms in the front suspension. The load gets distributed differently with a double A-arm set-up.

Since our 3rd gens use a hybrid A-arm/strut suspension with a single lower A-arm, the front A-arms see higher stress loads. Hotchkis felt there would be too much safety testing involved to offer them for street use. Remember, they have to get D.O.T. approval to be able to classify them for street use. Add to it that they probably feel they wouldn't sell a lot of units and the pricing goes thru the ceiling. It becomes clear that it's not worth their time.

Here's the disclaimer from PA Racing:
"The purchaser is responsible for inspections before installing products. Neither the seller nor PA Racing Inc. will be responsible for any loss or damage or injury from any cause including defects of PA Racing Inc. products. PA Racing Inc. products are NOT D.O.T. approved or intended for street use. Buyer agrees to indemnify and hold Sellers harmless from any claim,action or demand arising out of incident to the buyers installation or use of products purchased from PA Racing Inc."

I suspect Spohn's A-arms will carry a similar disclaimer.

MrDude_1

now im just curious from a engineering point of view.


how are the loads diffrent?

BretD 88GTA

I'm only repeating what Scott Gilman (he may not even be there anymore) of Hotchkis told me while I was getting a full tour of their facility, along with Tom Keliher from this board. Again, this was about 3 or 4 years ago. I'm not claiming to be an engineering expert.

At the time Scott told us that Hotchkis recognized the increasing popularity of our cars. However, he also clearly stated that due to the design of the 3rd gen F-body front suspension there were no plans to develop tubular front A-arms.

Bottom line, I think it's safe to say that Hotchkis probably feels they couldn't sell enough units to offset the cost of production and testing. At this point I'd say contact Hotchkis and talk to their R&D dept.

AGood2.8

Know who and what you buy suspension products from, sometimes there engineers are on crack. I learned this the hard way years ago when the "twin brother" of the A-arm I have pictured below broke on me at speed- I am very lucky to be alive. I have learn alot about metal intergrity and design over the years- I can tell you, Spohn is one to trust- He designs things well. I would never trust the POS design of PAracing- Those chincy perches will corode right off there and colapse the front of the car.

Those are two plates welded together (note red diagram). The bottom one had a kink bent into it in the design- it should have been welded for more support. That thing is beefy compared to any PA product and I broke it (without an accident causing the break) on level ground under high speed cornering.

BORLAZ06

who did u buy that piece from or is it stock. thats scary.

BretD 88GTA

Good post Dean. Again, I'm not an engineering expert but AGood2.8's pic illustrates how the load gets distributed differently.

With a double A-arm set-up, since both the coil spring and shock mount in the same location the load gets applied to the inboard area of the lower A-arm close to the pivot point - much better for resisting force. With the upper A-arm free to move there's little stress applied to the ball joint area.

With our strut set-up, the coil spring is applying force to the inboard area while the strut and spindle assembly are applying force to the ball joint area. This applies force over a larger area and increases the chance of breakage.

Look at AGood2.8's pic. Where did his A-arm fail? At the ball joint area. If the arms aren't designed properly you could be in for trouble.

I'll leave it to the engineering gurus to hash it out from here. They can offer more insight.

AGood2.8

Sorry I didn't note that the a-arm pictured is off my '89 Chev 1/2ton truck. And it does have uppers and lowers. Bret is correct about the Strut style front end taking more directed force on the lower arm ball joint area.

CrazyHawaiian

I haven't upgraded my A-frames yet, but it is something I plan to do on my track car. The A-frames I plan to use are not street legal either. I've always said it, and a lot of people dont want to believe it, but sometimes the stock piece is the strongest piece out there. It all depends on the situations and uses of the car. Here I will be using a track prepped car with 12 point roadracing rollcage, and I'll be using aftermarket tubular A-frames. If the parts fail and I crash, its not as bad as crashing on the street because I have good safety equipment (rollcage, helmet, etc) and everyone is prepared for it to happen (onsite Medical, etc). My street car on the other hand will be keeping the stock A-frames. If the A-frame failed on the street the results could be VERY bad. My street car is handling oriented and I do push it hard on the street so I need to think about the structural integrity of the parts. I dont push it as hard as my other car on the track, but I still push it hard. I'm not willing to risk it. For those of you who use your car mainly on the street, the stock A-frames (and K-member for that matter) are the strongest parts out there. I'll continue to believe that until someone can provide factual data of an aftermarket piece being stronger, or even as strong as the stock piece. With no guarantee's out there, are you willing to chance it on the street? I'm not. But am I willing to chance it on the track? Heck yeah!! Hehe!!

Anyway, here's some pics of the tubular A-frames I will be using on my track only roadrace car:

Stock Style:


Tubular Style (this is what I'm gonna use):

Gen X Mar0

iTrader: (1)

well if they wont take these back i'll give ya a good deal on mine........