foney_email

I am buying sfc's soon, and I have researched all day. I am including a poll so we can see the best liked brands of sfc's.

Here is what I have learned. I think the ones that seem strongest to me are the SPOHN TUBULAR and the KENNY BROWN (tubular).

ALSTON (tubular) and MAC (tubular) seem to be about the same, but MAC is a little less expensive. $189 vs. $134.50 respectively.

Here is a debate on the message board between the two.

Next seem to be the HOTCHKIS (square), and the GLOBAL WEST (tubular).

There are then COMP ENGINEERING (square), and CHASSIS ENGINEERING (square, and crappy), and many others who make a lesser product that is a knockoff of quality brands.

KENNY BROWN is most expensive, and CHASSIS ENGINEERING is the cheapest. Tubular is generally accepted as strongest.

I hear that SPOHN TUBULAR will clear most exhaust systems, as will ALSTON, and MAC .

I am leaning toward SPOHN TUBULAR because it is so beefy looking, and it is a good product. I will go non-powder coated, of course. I really like ALSTON, and MAC , because they look very nicely made, but I don't know if they provide as much support as the full frame systems like the SPOHN TUBULAR, and KENNY BROWN.

If anything I learned this. Every third-gen owner should buy sfc's, and a wonder bar. These not only improve handling and steering, but they prevent cracking of the chassis. Anything that will keep my car from breaking is good stuff.

Okay, what do you guys think?



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updates:

I didn't include the JEGSTER (square) frame ties... they are avalilable at jegs.com obviously.

I didn't include the SWracecars (tubular) they are the most expensive $350 but I love the design. I suggest looking at them. SWracecars

ronterry

Don't forget the Jegs SFC... A lot of members run them, including myself.

http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerc...05&prmenbr=361

Ron

lonsal

iTrader: (2)

I'm refraining from voting (conflict of interest). Does weight factor into your decision?

You are fortunate or unfortunate, depending on how you want to look at it that you can use perimiter-mount style SFC that welds along the pinch-rail behind the GFX (if present). Convertible owners are limited in their choices.

Lon

lock

Im running the Sphon boxed ones. OMG is my car tight now. I dont think he makes boxed anymore due to the labor involved. Id suggest his tubulars now though. After all, he makes top notch parts and is a sponsor of this awesome site.

TomP

I can't vote because I haven't installed any- yet. I'm leaning towards the Alston ones; I prefer the way they'll meet up with the subframes. It seems like a straighter, more direct connection... but I could be wrong.

As to not making boxed anymore- I thought tubular was always stronger then boxed? And isn't tubular also lighter?

MdFormula350

i went with spohn, very pleased with them.

NuclearPwrIroc

I bought the chassis engineering ones for $85 then added to them which cost another ooh id say 30 bucks total. nothing is compromised, car is kidney jarring stiff, im happy. moral of the story, make your own.

ede

i made mine, cost less than 20 dollars a pair for materials.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Global West for me. Perfect fit, no ground clearance loss.

JamesC

DJP87Z28

After having my Spohn SFC's installed 8 months ago, I can report that my IROC is tighter now then when it was brand new.
No more annoying squeaks, shakes or other unknown noises. I am satisfied with the Spohn tube type and wonder why it took me all these years before installing them. After installation the difference seems like night & day and I guess any brand would do this. Make sure you weld them on.

MdFormula350

yeah it was about the same for my install, i went down this bumpy a$$ dirt road to get to my grandfathers garage and the car was all over the place and making noise, now a few hours later i went back down the same road to leave and i forgot i was on the same road it was that much of a difference.

sfc's are a must :hail:

Tony90RS

Doesn't matter which you get (your budget) the main thing is to get some. They all serve one purpose, to stiffin your fbody. Of course everyone is going to vote for the ones they got. I only suggest that they be welded on.. Get them soon, you won't regret it

foney_email

I didn't include the jegsters sfc's because I didn't like them. I still think the choice for me is between the Alstons, and the Spohn tubulars. I can't decide. The Spohns look so strong and beefy, but I like the way the Alstons bolt up.

Oh yeah, I will definately weld them up.

I plan on making this a FAQ or something when I am done, so that new users can learn from our experience. This is one of the most researched topics, and I think it needs a guide. Leave as much imput as you can, and I will make sure that all of you get credit when I am finished writing it.

foney_email

do you guys think that I have the stregnth list right?

Any changes you would make?

SilentBob

How about the South Side Machine SFCs? I know alot of guys are running those.

Js92RS

I opted for the KB SFC's.

377Z

iTrader: (1)

Just want to make one correction, Kenny Brown's are round tube, not square. Pictures 5 and 6 are from the bottom show this in this thread (in the pictures from the top they only look boxed because I boxed them into the rockers with 1/8" plate steel).

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...t=ultimate+sfc

Matt87GTA

I don't see the S&W Racecars ones mentioned.....

CrazyHawaiian

I went with KB SuperSubs too.

89ProchargedROC

you get what you pay for in this category....

i have the KB and dont regret it...much lighter than anyother and it goes the LENGTH of the subframe....not just connect the uni-body

CaysE

foney_email... I'd like to make a point that hasn't been mentioned yet, and I also plan on doing.

Get the Spohns AND the Alstons. They mount in completely different locations and will give you the best rigidity possible. The Alstons connect the front and rear subframes in a basically straight line, and travel under the floorpans. The Spohns travel along the edge of the car under the doors, with a Y piece on each side.

Just thought you'd like to know.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

CaysE,

Overkill?

JamesC

85TPI400

JamesC,
I dont think you could ever get these cars to rigid!

Very good info!
Does anyone know if the Alstons will mount in addition to a pair of Hotchkis ones?

foney_email

Yeah, I want to do the alston and spohn combo, but I have never found out if they could be done with out interference between the two.

Which would you guys suggest first. The Spohns, or the Alstons. I am getting one or the other today or tomorrow, which should it be?

I'm having trouble finding a website that has the SW sfc's. Anyone have a link to them?

Also, to you guys that have made your own sfc's. Can you give me some pictures, or some scale diagrams so I can include them in the FAQ. This way more people can have custom sfc's.

slowTA

iTrader: (1)

Here you go:

http://www.swracecars.com/f-body.html

This is one of the many that they will send you if you e-mail them asking for installed pics. I think it is a good design but there is something I don't like about them too much.

foney_email

What don't you like about them? I think that is amazing.

I might just have a new favorite.

Anyone have this setup on their car with a 3" exhaust. I looks like it would clear, but $350 is too much for "looks like" to me.

I haven't seen that design before. It looks awesome. What do you guys think about it? I think it would definately add some superior rigidity to the frame.

slowTA

iTrader: (1)

Well you asked for specifics... That pic I posted above doesn't sit well with me at all. If you look at the Alstons, they have a better way of mounting a round tube to a flat plate! That piece of bent metal and weld made me want to puke when I saw it. Don't get me wrong, the idea is great but quality could be better. It also looks like the tubes are kind of small. Next is the price, I won't elaborate on that. Also if you look at this next pic (sorry it is so big), it looks like the bracket is a bit too wide and got crushed to the right size when the bolts were tightened. However if it is welded on there I would make another pass along the bracket to the tube, maybe even add some additional material to weld to.

foney_email

I agree, but since I would weld them up anyway, I was planning on fixing the area you mentioned, I would put some extra welds in there to attach the tube to the flat piece.

The price is out there, but if it supports more of the chassis, then it is worth it for me. I don't have the means to fabricate my own, so the more that the factory does, the better it is for me...

The extra $100 will prevent me from buying my WonderBar right now though... too bad. I will wait till next paycheck I guess...

I still have 48 days left on my suspension upgrades... (I gave my self 60 days to make it feel like a new car) I won't drive it untill july 10th.

plus my income tax check just came in... free money!

rodrigo diaz

i just got the southside machines sfc, am i nyc and some shops here don`t even know what sfc`s are, does anyone knows where i can get my sfc`s installed . they are weld-ons and will they clear my dualcats. thanxs

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

Sometimes you can find the Hotchkis SFCs on Ebay for cheap...I got my set brand new for $120 shipped.. So the money I saved will go towards the install.

Matt87GTA

I think those are some sort of prototype units, as mine were welded the entire length of the tube where it contacts the metal plate. Mine also didn't bend when bolted into the LCA subframe piece....

And one should note that, yes, these SFCs are more expensive, but they also have an integral driveshaft loop and a crossmember that ties both sides together that come with them and are included in the price. That crossmember also provides a place for a Torque Arm to mount.... Granted you have to buy their Torque Arm, but it is pretty reasonably priced, is fully adjustable, and plenty beefy. And having the torque arm anchored to the "frame" of the car and not the tailshaft of the transmission is a very good thing.

I would think twice about running these with a 4" cat back as the place where the exhaust runs between the floorpan and the integral crossmember part of the SFCs is mighty tight. I had to add a hanger to my test pipe to anchor the exhaust more securely to make sure my 3" cat back didn't touch the crossmember during harsh shifting (exhaust can move A LOT during shifts - especially with a manual trans). A 4" cat back would be a VERY tight fit.

Ground clearance is also tight. That crossmember part goes under the intermediate pipe of the cat back and the parts where the integral driveshaft loop bolt on tend to get friendly with the ground at times. I've never bottomed out driving down the road, but it has scraped coming out of certain driveways or parking lots that have a crown to them where the front and rear wheels can be at the same level but the center of the car gets close to the ground. I do have the Eibach Pro Kit in my car though.

All in all I am very satisfied with them though. The car is very rigid now. I will still likely weld them in when I get the chance just for piece of mind, but they haven't moved AT ALL since I installed them last summer. I can jack the car up from pretty much anywhere on the subframes of the car or the SFCs themselves and the whole car moves as a unit . The little side parts that tie into the pinch welds make PERFECT jacking points as well .

foney_email

Matt, do you have any pics of your install? I am glad to find someone who has these sfc's. I am really thinking about getting them.

slowTA

iTrader: (1)

Matt, glad to hear from someone who actually has them installed. It makes you wonder why they would sent out pics like the ones above when the actual quality is better. I'm liking them a little more right now, but I am still considering going with an Alston/perimeter style combo... but obviously not sure yet.

85TPI400

RE The S&W SFCs....
I have never heard of them before, but they look pretty impressive to me!

foney_email

I have decided against the SWracecars. They are probably the best, and if money wasn't an issue, they would be on my car right now. I looked, and I figure that I can do so much more to the suspension if I choose the cheaper comp engineering, or the MAC's.

I am also going to get the KYB shocks, a TDS WonderBar, and the energy suspension bushing kit. Either that, or a set of SWracecar subframe connectors. The choice for me is obvious. cheaper sfc's and a lot of other cool stuff.

Thanks for all the help guys....

weberflorida

iTrader: (2)

I just bought some Jegster sfc's. I am waiting for them to be delivered. When I talked to the tech on the phone at jegs he said that I would have to bang up my floor pan to get them to fit. Like take a hammer and make a about a half inch dent the length of my floor pan. Do any of you have any info on this? I figured they would bolt right up and I would weld them in. Any info would be great. Oh yeah how do I upgrade my member status and also put my ride in the reader's rides section? Thanks

Bill

foney_email

I'm not sure about the jegsters. I went with the alstons, and I am awaiting their arrival. I have heard about chassis modifications with some sfc's, so I guess that the jegsters are one of them..

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

I just installed Spohns but I have yet to drive the car. I do like how they are stitched all the way up the side of the car and they were real easy to install, but it took me 3 days to get them done "right"...I'm **** about how welds look.

Here's a pic of the driver's side all done and POR-15 coated:

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

Damn? Looks good! Ive got some Hotchkis leaning up against my wall waiting to be put on...got see if I can get thru the header and water pump and cam install first...cars been sitting up for a while now...I hate it... the taking apart the car is easy...now I got see see if I can get it back together...gotta get the stuff on first...

dnovotny

Look at this link for photos of why Alston's won't interfere with most other SFCs. https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=157418

I've installed a GW/Alston combo on my car, they don't interfere whatsoever. The Alstons run more towards the tranny tunnel, the GW's run along the pinch weld under the doors. I'd only be concerned about the y-portion of either KB or Spohn's SFCs bumping into the Alstons on the passenger side. But if you're looking for the ultimate in stiffness without having a cage or rollbar, this combo is it. My car doesn't seem to flex in the floorpan anymore, rather I notice that the firewall and front end of the car now flexes some. I used Andy's hinges and that's tightened up the front of the car significantly, but its still the weak point of the car with two SFCs (my GTA is also a hardtop).

f-crazy

iTrader: (-1)

ive seen alot of SFC's up close and i think the SSM's are by far the toughest...all 80 pounds of them
ive looked around for them and really compared them...i "settled" on the SSM's

2x3 boxed steel..very tough peice

foney_email

I never realized just how many brands of sfc's there were. I really need a few to comment on which brand they have, and why they chose that particular one. Also any modifications you needed, or any obvious design flaws or what you would do differently if you could do it again.

I want to make a nice informative faq, but I need some more examples or stories or something.

I plan on documenting my suspention installation, which as of right now consists of kyb gr-2's front, kyb gas-a-just rear, alston sfc's, a TDS WonderBar, and springs (I haven't decided on a brand yet). I have a big pile sitting at my house waiting on some springs to instal the whole bit.

I wonder how much better it will handle after all of this!

I have a joke going around with my friends, if I loose a race with someone, I can always challenge them to take turns really fast with me...

f-crazy

iTrader: (-1)

i picked the SSM because there 2x3 boxed steel...

and youd have to do a dukes of hazzed river jump to break them

imo boxed steel is stronger then tubular steel...

to bad no SFC company doesnt make triangular sub frames

the triangle is the greatest load bearing geometric shape

87kevroc

I finally decided on Mac and placed my order with them. They told me they wouldn’t ship for a week, I said OK. Two weeks go by, I check on my order, they still haven’t shipped. I cancel the order and call Alston. The Alston’s shipped out same day, got ‘em in 4 business days UPS ground, $10.50 shipping.

I was planning on getting the Alston’s welded in, but couldn’t find someone who could weld that was willing to install them. So, I decide to give it a shot myself, bolting them in. I bought a set of 6 ton jack stands, one set I had just wouldn’t go high enough. I also bought a right angle drive drill attachment so I could drill in tight places if necessary.

Following the instructions, I installed the driver’s side first. The brake/gas lines definitely get in the way when you’re trying to drill. I tie-wrapped them out of the way as much as I could, but they were still in the way. I took the metal shim that came with my ES poly transmission mount (that I chose not to install with the mount) and duct-taped it to the bottom of the lines so the drill bit would hit against the shim instead of the lines. I only had to do that in the rear. It took me awhile to get the bolts through the drilled holes and connector. With not enough room to get the proper angle to drill all the way through the frame, a hole has to be drilled on each side. I used a 3/8” bit. The hardware that comes with the connectors is high quality, a tight fit, but that makes it difficult to thread the bolt through to the hole on the other side.

After finishing the passenger side I went to take a look on the passenger side, and re-read the instructions. After realizing that I would need to disconnect the Y pipe from the exhaust manifolds, finding that I did not have a standard deep socket set (had a metric set though, it always works that way), being tired of working on my back and needing the car for transportation, I decided not to do the passenger side myself.

Took it to my mechanic Monday. He agrees to install the passenger side for 2 hours labor. He calls me and says I don’t have a stock catalytic converter, the connectors won’t fit. He was right. It had been replaced, along with the entire exhaust system, by the previous owner at a chain type muffler shop. It was not a high performance system however, and when I was under the car looking at it, it did not occur to me that the converter was not stock So I persuade the mechanic to keep trying, make it work, and he got it done. Now I’m really glad I didn’t try it myself.

So the Alston’s are installed, and it really makes a difference in how the car feels and behaves. It cut down rattles and squeaks a lot. When the car takes bumps, it feels like the shocks are doing what they’re supposed to, keeping the tire on the ground, and absorbing the shock, making for a much smoother ride. The car handles better, and has an overall solid feel to it. I agree with everyone else who has said this is a ‘must’ mod, that should be done before any others.

Aviator857

My major concern with any of the brands is how they connect at the front frame, most not all connect well at the rear subframe. Spohn's look like(just from pick) they don't connect well at the front(everything else about them I like), this is made up for by the stitch welding the length of the car. This however transfers allot of force to somewhat thin sheet metal. The shape of the front frame makes this difficult to do and still allow the exhaust and ground clearance needed. I would love it if I had a shop to fab up some for myself, I know how I would build it. (Exhaust isn't much of a prob, I have friends that own a muffler shop, and he has a bender) Mac/Alston's connect better at the front, but since it has a lack of stitch welding, the torque (twisting from engine or suspension energy) on the car isn't deal with. KB seem like they connect well at both ends but the price just puts it out of my range (college student, did 2/3 of way through Aerospace engineering so I know a little about structural integrity, but switched to Computer) probably best choice though IMO. I am thinking about going with Spohn's and then triangulating the front connectors to the transmission crossmember and back up to the front subs. But for them to be really efficient at transferring energy through the chassis you would need both spohn's and like Alston's. Just my opinion, I would like to see some calculations on all. Anyone with pictures of how these connect at the front I would like to see them.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

IMO, the Spohns connect very well at the front. The passenger side butts up against the right channel of the front subframe and the driver's side kinda lays up against it from underneath and you just fill weld the space. I'm not that good at fill welding with a MIG so I made triangular shaped braces to fill the gap and welded those in there, a pic is below.

I have ot install the final exhaust clamp today so I'll get more pics while I'm under there.


Ed

Aviator857

Thank you, that makes me like them more, every picture I have seen just looked like they bearly touched the front frame, when you are done would you post a pic like that for each of the 4 main frame points, and where the extension in the front welds in to both the main bar, and the subframe.

Thanks in advance.

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

No probelm. You could also stitch weld the whole length of the framerail if you deem it necessary, that sure would do the trick.

I'll post what pics I have. The camera didn't like all the angles I tried to get so I got what I got.

Ed

ebmiller88

iTrader: (7)

Before I start posting pics of my install and take away from the point of this thread, take a look at this thread specifically about Spohn SFC installs. I posted other pics there:


https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=183509


Ed

408TA

judging from pictures i've seen i would have to say that i like the SSM the best, why? because they seem to be more direct(straighter) from rear to front. now for me this is more important because im interested in getting my car to hook up better for straight line racing. if the subs are in more of a straight line then the stress(forces) are directed more linear to the front with out flexing as much. now it may not help out as much in a twisting type of force, this is where adding 2 subs could be beenificial. but like i said earlier i've got to figure out how to get 470+ lbs of torque to hook up and send me sailing!