91Z28

Ive decided that im going to cut my pro kit springs, they sit too high still (installed propperly), what is the propper method to cutting them with a torch, how do i make sure they are cut at exactly the same place, and how do i avoid screwing up, what methods have you used ?

iroc2nv

dude....
i did that in my cav show car...i hope you have alot of money for struts and other front end parts, because it messes up your front end bad..and it also gives you a ****ty ride!!

but the best way is to not use a torch but a grinder of some sort and cut a full coil at a time...and check it after each coil you cut..

its better that way in the long run

iroc2nv

curt86iroc

the best way is not to cut them. it will mess up your front suspention geometry....

iroc2nv

isnt that what i said..kinda??

iroc2nv

curt86iroc

yeah, i was just backing you up

iroc2nv

i know...i was just playin...

iroc2nv

chacane67

First, there is a proper way to cut springs, and then there are your springs.

I must say that you should NEVER cut a progressive rate (non-linear) spring. You can cut a linear rate spring all day long but never a progressive spring.......just some food for thought, it is best to cut a spring with ox/acc. and cut it hot and fast as not to build much heat into the spring itself. Next you must let it air cool, never use water or oil to cool a cut spring. The last thing to do is clean up the cut with a grinder to eliminate the possibilities of stress risers.

With linear rate springs, when you cut them, their rate increases but not at a linear rate. As to say you can cut an inch from the spring and gain 20 lbs/inch and ride height will change a 1/4". You cut another inch and you can gain another 20 lbs/inch and drop a 1/2". If you ever find yourself in this situation, remember that you cau allways cut more but you can never put any of it back.

RICH92RS350

I've cut a lot of springs and never used a torch.
You don't want them to get too hot.
Use a die grider with a cutoff wheel and take a 1/4 coil at a time, 1/2 if you're brave (once they're cut, you ain't makin' 'em taller)
My Pro Kit springs are cut 3/4 coil in the front.
As far as suspension geometry goes, once you get past a certain point (low), you might not have enough adjustment to get the camber reasonable. This can still be corrected though.
I'm using the Ground Control Caster/Camber adjusters.
http://www.ground-control.com/
These give you another inch or so of suspension travel, mount the top of the strut in a solid steel spherical bushing (instead of mushy rubber) and much more adjustability.
My RS is 2-1/2" lower than stock and still has about 3" of travel with 3/4" poly bumopstops.
When I first lowered it the camber was an unreasonable -4 degrees. It handled great, but chewed up tires badly.
Now it's at -1.5 degrees camber, +5.5 degrees caster.
Just where I wanted it, handles great and tires hold up very well, considering my driving habits.

Also, the Eibach pro kit front springs are not progressive, only the rears.
-Rich-

slickrock55

out of pure curiousity, are the Eibach's progressive rate or linear?

RICH92RS350

dan84transam

Never cut coil springs with a torch ! springs are heat treated for strenth or something. So using a torch will mess up the spring rate.

A cutoff wheel on a grinder might be ok. But I would use a hacksaw.

Goodluck,

Dan

Steve86TA

iTrader: (57)

I wouldnt recommend a torch either.I used a grinder and it worked great.Good luck.

brodyscamaro

sllt1776

have fun with a hacksaw. i hope you got a few days and extra arms. a cutting wheel/grinder is easy, fast and doesn't heat the springs too much.

chacane67

Anyone ever hear of Dick Guldstrand? Well I used to work for Dick Guldstrand and Roger Penske, and thats the way the 'old' guys taught us to cut linear springs. So I guess they have been wrong for 35 something years.

So for all of you that have purchased lowered linear rate springs from Guldstrand, Global West, Lingenfelter or Reeves Callaway just remember.......thats how they cut the product thats in your car.....(as long as it doesnt say Eibach on it). For the most part they are all MOOG springs, cut to a designed length, painted and re-packaged.

Cutting them with a chop saw, die grinder or an ox/acc torch will all transfer heat into the spring. Its how you dissapate the heat that is residual that is important, hence the air cooling. It will not change the temper as long as*it*is*air*cooled.

I dont want to come off sounding HOT. I just dont want you guys/gals to get bum info. There are a-lot of ways to do things and a-lot of them are a little too shade tree. You spend your hard earned money on your rides, so if you can do something yourself because you can and you want the same result as if you were to take it to a world renowned chassis builder, why not do it the same way they do? You just gotta share the info, so the masses can spent money elsewhere. Like on tires from doing

PF Flyer

If you take up the book by Herb Adams titled Chassis Engineering, you'll be shown the proper way to cut springs.

Just like chacane67 tells you, with a torch, quickly.

And, yes, air cooled.

pokes87iroc

i got the camaro performance handbook from david shelby. in it it also says to use a torch. the key is to let them air cool.if my scanner was working i would scan it for everyone to see.

AFrikanGoodTime

I Know him personally. He's known our family for close to 40 years.(The Ekas')
Also do you know Dean Thompson?
I'm sure you know Brian Chemeluski.

Anyways, just because Dick taught you to cut them that way doesn't mean it is correct. Heat messes up spring temper and will weaken the spring rate. It is only critical if you are wanting to run a specific spring rate for certain tracks or conditions otherwise it is not very critical. I choose to cut mine with a cutoff wheel.

91Z28, don't listen to the guy that said to cut a full coil at a time, you'll be sitting in the weeds in no time. How much you cut depends entirely on springrate, and the caracteristics(weight), and desired ride height of your own personal vehicle. Don't ever cut more that a half coil at a time--I would personally start with a 1/4 coil. Make sure you always re index the spring into the can grooves properly(Don't cut the flat side).

Hulk0202

We used to cut holes in peoples heads to release the demons. The old way isn't necessarily the right way.

chacane67

I think, well no, I know that some of you have missed the point completely.

The "OLD WAY" when done correclty is the prefered method. Having been in the business for close to 20 years, being a ferric metals fabricator in the aerospace community and being an engineer myself, I have not found a better/faster method yet. And as I stated, if you know what you are doing with a ox/acc torch, when you cut it 'hot-and-fast' you will only build minimal heat into the spring as not to change the temper and let it air cool. If you really want split hairs, you should insert the spring into a 5 gallon bucket of sand as it will act as a heat sink and reduce the heat absorption even further.

In any method, the general idea is to minimize any heat saturation in the metal itself. A cutoff wheel would be a good method too, it will just have faster temperature saturation.

Damn, some people on this site are just a little too jumpy. I wish it were that we cut holes into peoples egos, to release their demons.

Hulk0202

If you knew me you wouldnt take that too literally. Hell, Im not even saying your wrong.

chacane67

Naw, it's cool. The thing I like about these forums is that there are so many ways to get the same thing accomplished and no one has tried everything once....were all tryin to do the same thing, make our cars fun to DRIVE. Not everyone will have the same opinion, but its sharing the ideas that makes our hobby so much fun.

But your comment does have its validity........

jmd

iTrader: (4)

I bought a car from the mgr. at Guldstrands a few years back. I know that they sell a trimmed Moog spring for a lot of apps. Question for ya though - the rear springs they recommend for a particular GM app. are variable rate, and they recommend cutting. What's up with that?

I have cut several sets of springs, with torch and cutoff and never had a problem.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Heating the small amount at the end of the spring to trim the spring does not change the spring rate any appreciable amount. Spring rate is based on things other than the steels temper.

Nice comparison. An invalid one, but nice regarless.

So far, everyone who says "you can't use a torch" hasn't tried it.

AFrikanGoodTime

Look again guy, I said spring temper and NOT tempered steel. Heat screws up spring temper-if you want to dispute that fact then you are not wise.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Right, that's understood, but when you say

that would lead those reading to understand that you are saying the spring rate would change.

Hence my commentary.

Matthew

AFrikanGoodTime

Yes,The spring rate will change- it will lower or weaken even if only one coil is heated for the point of cutting, that section of spring temper will weaken and it couldby as much as 25lbs. You may gain 10lbs by what you cut off but can loose maybe 25 from the lack of spring temper.

When you are working with 800-1000lbs front coils this doesnt matter as much but with tiny 175 lb rear springs like on our Camaro's it does make a difference

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Naah. it's more than 10. Secondly, only a few inches are heated, and that few inches provides a seat for the spring (against the a-arm or frame in a 3rd gen) so you're off base there too.

Please... try cutting springs, put some miles on them, do it w/ a saw, do it w/ a torch, before you mislead people.

thanks

AFrikanGoodTime

Partner may I ask you how old you are and what experience you have. I have been engineering suspensions and racing cars for 20 years.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Repeating yourself doesn't prove your point.

If you want to sit here and say that Guldstrand specifications on springs are wrong, and that chopped springs have a lower spring rate (intrinsically by a change in temper by a minor % of coil,) well I guess that's your right.

From the non scientific aspect of running springs pre-cut, and post-cut, and post-second-cut, I'm quite certain that the spring rate is not lowered by the process, regardless of your factoids.

You stand corrected.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

I like your assumption that I've never worked with Camaro rear springs. That's all I use, in f-bodies, and in g-bodies. Both Guldstrand spec, and others.

I may have to call in the metallurgists.

AFrikanGoodTime

As for the topic of this post, I thing everyone has had enough opinions and can make up their own minds.

JMD, you never answered my question. Let me reply to your statement about Guldstrand. Mr Guldstrand (Who I know personally) Doesn't make the springs that he sells. He, like most others, just puts his name on them. When his guys do custom street applications in his shop for customers, time and money is of the essence, thus cutting springs with a torch is faster and cheaper. final spring rate is not as crucial as it is for a balanced and corner weighted road race car. I push my cars hard, even my street cars, and like my suspensions balanced to the pound as close as possible not only front to rear but side to side. That little extra factor is what will give a car the edge over others.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Gee, really? I'm reading your posts, are you reading mine?


So far, you haven't mentioned what springs you use. Are you saying you don't cut them? Chacane already explained where the cutting process needs to be carefully done - air cool them. To balance all your street & track cars are you running jackpads (or whatever they're called) or are you using the elite circular saw? I'm eager to hear what the l33t use.

AFrikanGoodTime

I have always used a diamond wetsaw to cut my springs. You can purchase coil springs from any number of manufactures at any number of # rates and heights to start with. Calculate things, buy one close to what you need, trim to ride height, check rate on spring tester to see what you have after cut, if it works-install it. I had access to a spring # rate tester for years, that friend moved a few years back to Colorado. I have had a couple of sets of srpings for evey car I have ever owned. I usually strat off with very stiff springs and work down to get the ride suitable for hard street use. I then have spare sets for track use when necessary.

AFrikanGoodTime

What car did you buy from the manager at Guldstrands. I was curious and checked your website- I hope your not bragging about that piece of sh*t Monte Carlo. My 1/2 ton truck could out corner that thing in your pictures? Again what performance suspension engineering experience do you have?

jmd

iTrader: (4)

You don't have to continue to make an *** of yourself. I don't remember bragging either. And as far as my silver Monte with global west, guldstrand and other parts, you better get some serious *** cold chopped springs if you wanna play in the corners with it.

What I've worked on included 3rd & 4th gen F's and 78-88 G-bodies. Don't whip out the engineering tag to impress anyone but yourself.

Glad to hear you're an olde fart who assumes he can't be wrong. Time to call in the metallurgists. Keep digging.

Sincerely
Matthew

chacane67

Did you but that Monte from Gary?

Damn fellas, to think I am a youngster myself. I am under 40.

And may I add.......

Those who are full of their own opinions will be deaf to words of wisdom from others. In a discussion between two persons, what often happens is that each is intent on asserting his own views.
As a result, apart from hearing his own voice or views, he does not learn anything else.

Lets all play nice and remember that the "Philosophic definition" of an opinion lies somewhere between ignorance and wisdom.

If this is a pissing match, lets meet at Buttonwillow and get it on!!

Although I am interested in whom JMD is and what he has to back himself up. Life is full of circles, and the automotive one is very small at that.

Oh yeah, being an engineer and a ferric metals fabricator.....I guess that slightly qualifys myself as a metallurgist.....