Burnout91

From a purely technical standpoint, no CARB approved part or stock part that is modified is legal, either. I took my car in, told them I needed a smog check, waited in the parking lot, and drove away certified. ALL of the emissions equipment is present and functional. It blew the cleanest numbers ever. I have all the equipment; tailpipe and evaporative emissions far exceed California requirements. That's all I am saying. Put an EGR system on the HSR, which was not that difficult, and you have a good performing, eco-friendly piece of hot-rod equipment.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

i always wondered that also. im assuming that the sctpi guys ported the heck out of the intake manifolds that theyre using. along with the runners etc .. well thats all hidden in there..

back in 03 when i got my car i was looking into a sweet build up for the l98. In 05 i went with a rebuilt .030 over, forged pistons, comp cam Xr276hr-12. minor port job and valve job on the cast iron l98 heads.. supporting fuel. better spark. and custom prom chip. i was going to mate all that with hsr and had my ls1t56, McLeod bell housing awaiting and those big solenoids that everyone spoke of..

i was also looking into upgrading headers and y pipe. i researched and ran into slp headers which were a bit pricey. and also ran into dyno dons headers that were local.. but i dont recall seeing any sort of E.O. sticker on dyno dons.
ill keep it simple. im sure you guys pass the sniffer test..

but from researching and from knowledgeable people out there wouldn't majority of your guy's tpi set ups fail the visual inspection.??

California is very strict on any modified car.

if were talking about being smog legal cars what exactly are we talking about here?can you guys support what you guys claim?

you guys are getting into details about ls1s not being able to be smog legal ..when in fact you guys are in the same boat... visual inspections play an important role on this topic.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

btw im not here to promote lsx swaps. not now not anytime soon.
i have much interest in the third gen community otherwise i wouldn't be building my car

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I believe you can get the LS1 swap label. However you have to go to a CARB/BAR referee and he has to go over the whole thing to make sure all the smog stuff that was with that particular LS1 engine is in place and operational. This will also include the full tank. Might include the air intake system. I believe the catalytic converters for that motor have to be in the same location as on the car the motor came out of. Don't be surprised if you have to go back a few times. This is partially what Dyno Don was talking about when doing these LSx swaps.

All the smog equipment including catalytic converters is on our TPI cars and fully functional. The smog tech has no way of knowing if the inside of our intake runners are larger than stock. Maybe others with more knowledge than I have will chime in on this.

Guest

Someone you knew, no doubt. Want to visit the test-only Mobil down the street from me who I do not know, and see what he says? Or maybe the guy across the street from him? Or someone I was referred to off Grand and Edinger in Santa Ana? All of those guys were looking for a CARB EO sticker for the SLP headers I had, on an otherwise stock car.

t-top havoc

iTrader: (3)

Interesting point!!
I thought as long as it passed the sniffer, & was from a later model, it was legal..?..
Stock exhaust & cat(s) & stock fuel delivery // usage from the donor-- that doesn't pass either???
Cali is a great place to visit, but WOW on the strictness for you guys!!

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

the questions were referred towards your guys tpi builds and modifications.


i know what i have to do to my car since its bone stock. *evap active *donor car fuel tank *4 oxygen sensors in place *4 cats in stock location * air intake from the tpi *air or egr system active* no ses codes

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"All of those guys were looking for a CARB EO sticker for the SLP headers I had, on an otherwise stock car."

I still have the SLP receipt for my headers. I show them that and the CARB number in the book. They did not have labels when I bought my headers. So far no problems.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

I just had my car smog and it passed the visual. It doesn't matter what you have under. A thirdgen is a thirdgen. Just come out to the cruises and enjoy.

Guest

Its a red tape parade getting the sticker. Some people have had ok experiences, some get probed rectally.

Most cams arent legal either, but to date I've never had a smog tech even question a lope. Aftermarket intake manifolds? Headers? Other obvious stuff? More times than I can count on both hands. To a degree it depends on where you go and who you know, but even at that things change. The BAR goes in and pops your buddy, and now he's no longer your friend. Or someone different from the same place looks at your car, nope not today! Idiotic nonsense propogated by bureaucrats who could care less about the air, and are only concerned about the green coming in. If it sniffs clean it should be fine, but often that doesnt matter. Even the state doesnt care, they just want their program and their cash cow.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"the questions were referred towards your guys tpi builds and modifications."

As I said above we are running all the factory smog equipment. Cats are in the proper location. Everything is operational and we pass the sniffer. We have CARB numbers for our intake runners whether SLP or Edebrock. Our heads have CARB numbers. If one were to have the larger tube runners such as Accel they look and function just like the factory units.

MadMax you will not get an argument from me on the subject.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"Stock exhaust & cat(s) & stock fuel delivery // usage from the donor-- that doesn't pass either???"


I believe if you have everything smogwise from the donor car you are good to go as long as it is operational. However you cannot just go down to the local smog shop and get it smogged right away after the install. You have to go to a referee and get the label. Only time and money. Then you can go to the local guy and get it smogged there after.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

This thread is ridiculous.

You are comparing an Induction system to a WHOLE DIFFERENT KIND OF ENGINE..
TPI is not an engine, its just a huge hunk of aluminum suffocating a Gen 1 small block.
While the Gen 1 is a great engine and can be built to run very strong for cheap, the LS1 is light years beyond the Gen 1, the advantages of which have already been spoken about.

I think people getting wrapped up in induction systems is the biggest waste of time. If you have a restrictive system like the TPI, why try and put perfume on a pig? Either get something that really flows some air for N/A performance or put some BOOST to it.

The past 5 years in the turbo buick scene has opened my eyes.. if you built an L98 or LB9 like a mild turbo buick build I guarantee you will run tens. Grab a 70mm turbo, a methanol injection kit, and a megasquirt and you will have enough power to kill yourself if you don't respect it.

Why do I say this? Because on a completely stock long block V6 I ran a 7.2@97mph in the 1/8th.. that's with heads that flow 150 cfm on the intake, a block that has only 4 bolts per cylinder (SBC has FIVE), a STOCK cam with specs like the L03 peanut cam, a STOCK single bore throttle body, cast crank, cast rods, cast pistons, stock headers, and a 3 inch down pipe through two mufflers.
Imagine what a V8 -with 120 more cubic inches, heads that flow 50+ cfm more per cylinder, a bigger cam and more induction flow- would put to the ground at 25 psi of boost. It would be insane if you were good about keeping it out of detonation.

Now the caveat to all that is if you did the same thing to an LS1 you would be running low 9s and would be doing it much more reliably due to much stronger construction of the LS1. Or you can do a really mild build like my good friend with an 02 Z28. Stock long block with a z06 cam, aps twin turbo at 12 lbs of boost = 700 rear wheel horsepower. Nuff said.


Personally, I will be going LS1 in my thirdgen. 150 lbs of weight off the nose and for the price you are getting an engine that is only comparable to an SBC after you've thrown a ton of cash at it for great heads, splayed main caps, and much better induction system than the TPI.

The thirdgen world is too small to be trying to have these inter thirdgen rivalries when there are ricers that will blow your doors off. Whether you blow away a GTR with an LS1 or a Gen 1, the only thing the ***** guy knows is that you beat him with a chevy V8. I'd rather take the easier path.

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

After reading all of dyno don's posts here, I can't tell if he just really is that ignorant to the facts, or if he's jealous because he doesn't have the skills and know-how to pull off an LS swap himself.

I don't know why he keeps saying it's so hard. I'm not a mechanic, didn't take any automotive classes of any kind, in fact I have a finance degree, which is far from anything mechanical or automotive. I did my swap on my own with the only assistance coming in the wiring department and having the exhaust made for me. What gives Don? Is your only real reason you dislike these swaps is that you think the motor itself is ugly?

Guest

Classic.

Its fixable though! See pic:

bungo78

iTrader: (1)

Man..... This has been entertaining!

injdinjn

After reading all this, I guess my car is lying to me.

pass the popcorn

thegooseman

Boom! Here you go Mikey, a 4l60e transmission for you. If you do the swap I suggest you do the tranny too.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/wester...flexplate.html

Guest

So much for "free"

Guest

I have a gen1 SBC that puts down 540rwhp has been spinning 8500 rpms for 40 years..... you guys are now telling me they aren't strong?

Granted I get crappy mileage if you even want to call 3gallons-per-mile mileage (joke, its actually 3 mile per gallon when I am on it- you literally watch the fuel gauge move going down the freeway.

The real tecnology is fuel management. I do not see any advantage to LS1 technology over SBC gen 1 racing block. Now when you compare the average family commuter SBC out of moms station wagon (2 bolt main generic peice of crap) then yeah. Probelm lays in comparison that all new motors are so expensive and advanced that you do not have the budget motors of yesteryear. LSx's ain't exactly cheap, nor is anything modern.... nor is a good old performace SBC gen 1.

Its all good people, its all smoke and mirrors= what really boils down to things is can you beat me with al that power and no driving skills? I do not care what you have, I have enough power to beat you with my driving skills and chassis management of that power.

Good night

Burnout91

What makes you think I knew the guy? I didn't / don't know him or any other smog tech. I didn't go shopping for an easy smog. It's a Test Only center. The tech commented on the sticker displayed for the headers, said it runs very clean, debited me for $59.99, with a receipt, and I drove down the road. If you want to play 'drive around looking for a shop that will fail you,' go ahead. Want to bring your car to the shop that tested my car? Of course not, that would be effin' ridiculous. One test, one pass. That's all I need, at least for another two years

Grey Goose

Amen Broseph! I don’t care how fast anyone’s* car is in a straight line, you put a couple of dog legs, chicanes, and sweepers in the mix and the mighty LO3 will be dead in your ***…

*Vetruck & Jerrywho excluded of course

eagle_eyes

iTrader: (3)

you lost me here...
Gen 1 SBC is the TPI that wasn't introduced until '85. 25 years is the most, not 40 years.... unless i'm missing something here.

Grey Goose

1955-1992 Chevrolet passenger cars (trucks are a little different) small blocks are considered 1st generation small block motors. 1993-1997 LT’s are 2nd generation, and LS’s 1997-2005 are 3rd and 2006-Present are 4th generation…

eagle_eyes

iTrader: (3)

i was under the impression that the EFI determined the generation. TPI's being the 1st gen, LT's the 2nd, etc.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

First off, call me all the names you want, I couldn't care less.

I try to offer good advice on these boards and head pepole in the right direction.
As far as LSX swaps do what you want, I couldn't care less about that either.

As far as the under hood appeal of the LSX combo, yes I think it is an "ugly ****" but then, that is my opinion and I am intitled to it.

As far as this thread goes, I know Mickey and I have worked on that car, it is real nice. I am a true thirdgen lover and I will always keep mine that way.
I had just hoped he would too.

Good day gentlemen!

Grey Goose

Negative

eagle_eyes

iTrader: (3)

ok, thanks for the clarification.

ringo234

This thread needs to die, every opinion has been heard from both sides of the aisle and "This conversation can no longer serve any useful purpose, Good Bye Dave" signed HAL

camaromike222

Although, does not a 3rd gen motor in a 3rd gen f-body sound good to everyone? Know that!

Guest

I can see where that conversation went...


May you never be greeted with the friendliness of state regulations.

injdinjn

IMO The owner can do to his car whatever he wants.

A couple of years ago the winner of the HR drags searched and found a presitine late 60's chevelle all original under 100k miles. He then turned it into a drag car tubs and all. Would I do that, no but it's his car and I'm not about to call him a idiot for doing it.

I once saw a decent 58 Plymouth with a opal 4 banger in it. Not my cup of tea but whatever.

itsMikey

this thread like..blows my mind..lol
all the haters really make me laugh...

thanks for all the PM's with advice and insight guys (replied to all 15 of em )

i know the people that stand behind me and i thank and appreciate those people.

to all the nay sayers, do you doesent bother me one bit that im making my car that much less origional. so? lol..i never plan to sell my car, ever. its paid off and looks sick.

people saying the LSX's are ugly...last time i checkd, being fast isnt a beauty pagent

to all the OG tpi guys...i sincerely congradulate you for making a vast amount of power out of the engines that came in your cars, i really do. i just dont have the urge to do so, i want to modernize in a way i guess.

and i cantr stress this enough, IM GETTING THE WHOLE SETUP FOR FREE! lol..

no disrespect intended although i dont think i did in any way.

Mikey

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

Yours is a race block? Is it not an original stamped GM block, or? If that's the case then we LS swappers should be able to bring the GMPP "LSX" block into the equation.

What are your power adders or n/a setup? No plain old sbc is going to be putting down those numbers without extensive work to the block ( more cubes, more stroke than stock). So again, the point still stands that you get much more bang per cubic inch with LS motors.

I'm not bashing your setup, because the numbers are impressive. I'm just questioning your argument.

itsMikey

lol -_-

godreject

iTrader: (1)

haters, you do you, i do me, lol. Mikey in all honestly your posting was intended to create public input. Now being how if you don't want haters or whatever you call them, either don't post a controversial topic or refer your thread to a specific group. trust me the majority of us are old enough and can withhold from typing on a thread not intended for us.

itsMikey

who said i didnt want them? lol..i love em

Z28FAST1

I'm going to disagree with you on this, Mikey posted about an LS1 swap in a forum for 3rd gen enthusiast, not just TPI Cult members.

Posting about LSX swap should not be a controversial topic just because the majority of So Cal members are running TPI's. LSX swappers should be free to post progress builds, ask for input, etc instead of being question and/or criticized.

Mikey, im down for a carne asada weekend build. Let me know when you get the parts sorted out but only if we do it in a driveway

itsMikey

haha..wouldent have it any other way! will probably be in a garage tho close enough!!

and yeah bro, ill let you know

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

I couldn't have said it better.

Duck

It's fascinating seeing how people react to swapping engines. It's still a ThirdGen, regardless of what provides the power. Different strokes for different folks ... it's all good.

Guest

Standard GM performance 4 bolt block with some custom machining from the factory. This motor is unfortunately untracable and the serial #'s on it have been given to all the major Corvette shops around here over the years as well a a few dealerships like Felix and Cone Chev. They can trace the block to 1964, but from there the questions are asked every time, Where did you get this from. Its unheard of not to be able to trace a block serial #- but you can;t on this motor. It should have never left GM- Long private story I do not want to share on here.

Anyways, it came as a factory long block with a special cam grind installed in it that was pulled and given the Ed Iskendarian himself when he was next to Guldstrand on Thunder Alley Culver City, CA back in the late 60's. Turns out to be a prototype pedecessor of the LT1 cam but much hotter. A friend of my fathers- Doug Hooper (ex Cam Am driver) was working with Donovan in those years doing research for GM recognized that cam grind as being very similar in profile to the LT1 cam they settled on in 1970 era. The block is a 327ci motor but with earlier small journal crank and believe it or not GM powder rods that have slight areas of machine work added, we have been told they are definately GM custom factory stuff from early to mid 60's. and are 6". Oil passages have work done also but the block is basically a very standard looking perormance 4 bolt SBC from that era.

The heads are iron 2.02's that where extensively worked by Blairs speed shop (Research Blairs if you have no idea who they are). The motor is married to an Edelbrock Tarantula intake manifold and a Holley 750 douyble pumper with 50cc pumps on both ends and alot of custom work to it, the carb is about a foot long with sloosh tubes and metering block. Has a Mallory triple bearing distributer good to 11,000 rpms and set by Centerforce on a distributer wheel with the advances coming in at 1500,2500, and 3500 rpms giving a total crank advance of 42*. THe powerband on this car is from 3000-8500 is the highest I take it even though it still pulls- the rods scare me from ever going higher. THis car is OFTEN mistaken for a bigblock as it is escavasted through massive Hooker Headers with 2" primaries and 4" collectors. It happens to hold a ROute 66 open header contest title amoust many of its various trophies we have campaigned this car in over several decades.

Its flaw? as stated it gets on average about 5mpg if you are babying it and 3 if you are on it- and it has to run Avgas at the very least. In a pinch I run 5 gallons 91oct and 1 gallon Xylene (117 oct pure) ratio to get me places. Obviously the car is not driven very often. Two people here have seen it in person. I drove it over to Dyno Dons once, and Ron Brooks (RWB__s) was over once and If I recall I took him for a little ride around the block. THe car has seen about 200,000 miles in te last 40 years and will still eat a Viper at a stop light. Not many things mess with me- you know it just idling next to it. I have even eaten a GSXR 750 on a 20mph roll.

If this car was ever outfitted with a modern fuel injection system if would probably be even more incredible- but why mess with something that is nostalgic and 40 years later still beating pretty much anything it comes accross?

(edit to add this- Note that this entire footage you see this car running this autox course is all entirely in 1st gear- the car does about 70mph in 1st with a Mucie Rockcrusher M22 gearbox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8owSVZaWH3A

This topic only came up because I read talk how the LSx technology was so far superior to the gen1 sbc. It has nothing to do with the TPI system which I really know nothing about. My position is a Gen1 SBC is just as viable dollar per hp AND reliable dollar per HP compared to any LSx motor. You put modern technology into the Gen1 platform and it perfoms just a well. Heck, mine is not even modern technology and it does.

The car also is running a massive 40 lb flywheel (I have the original Centerforce dual friction prototype clucth in the car in this video which I was sponsored by and did all of their development testing) and those rear wheels are very heavy steel 17" diameter and 12.5" wide with 335-30-17 BFG RR1's. Very heavy rotation weights for both of those which hampers rpm climb- yet you can clearly see power is not a problem for me- I have to "work" my pedals gingerly.

I have a run slip for LACR back in 1989 where I ran on euro T/a radials 295/50-15's on this car for street tires on American racing rims and ran a 10.89 @ 134 mph. I had very poor traction off the line and made up a whole lot at the tall end.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Im not picking any sides heres. as I h ave a boosted 383 lt1 under my hood.

I don't care whats in your stable "THERE IS ALWAYS SOMEONE FASTER"

Ii can name a few BOOSTED TPIs who would prob give ya a run for your $$.

1. prestons Boosted 305 TPI for 1. ran 9's https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...urbo-iroc.html
google it you will find videos

2. would be trbo355's TA running little ol t44e's if i recall right. 9.37@150! Best power number was 738 whp. Ohh BTW this was a 100k mile junkyard engine that lasted god who knows how many runs and over 50 dyno floggings.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...bo-88-gta.html


LS motors are impressive , TPIs built right are impressive. little ol v6s are too (tta , gn , etc)

yya know just sayin.....................

2.

Parrydise7

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=TPI TERR

seems like people are getting offended..[/QUOTE]

Just because someone tries to discourage this swap does not mean they are offended or a hater. Likewise, anybody that thinks this swap is going to take place over a weekend with the benefit of 10 pounds of carne asada is mistaken.

Don just converted my 305 carb/auto to a tpi 5-speed. That should be an easy weekend swap, right? After all, it is only 80s technology and how complicated can that be?

It was not a weekend project and it was not an easy swap. It is not a job for amateurs. An LS swap is going to be much more difficult. I wanted my swap to look factory original and it does. Take a look at my post under "Don's latest masterpiece."

If anyone that wants to help you has done this swap before, ask to see their car. Does it look like the swap is factory original or something less? Does it look like it was cobbled together? Are you going to be proud to open your hood and show it off or are you going to be embarrassed? I would be embarrassed to open the hood and show off something cobbled together and it wouldn't make a bit of difference whether it was 80s technology or an LS. If it is a nice, clean install, I don't care if it is 50s technology.

If you are willing to settle for less, that is your choice. Good luck with your swap. You are going to need it.

itsMikey

exactly...

Z28FAST1

Mind telling us what a "masterpiece" like your build costs? Looks like aftermarket heads, cam, after market plenum and intake, extensive porting etc and making about 360rwhp if you are lucky??

Again with the "cobbled" argument

I'm always embarrassed to pop my hood with this disgusting cobbled engine in there.




TPI TERR should never pop his hood either!!!




You shouldn't be giving advice about people's builds when you drop of your car and have someone build it for you.

Settling for less, you mean like putting a T5 behind your set-up?

Parrydise7

iTrader: (1)

You shouldn't be giving advice about people's builds when you drop of your car and have someone build it for you.


You mean I should have put it in my driveway on jack stands, bought 10 pounds of carne asada and let a bunch of guys attack it with wrenches?

It's funny you should ask about cost. I got the engine and transmission used from a guy who was putting an LS in his third gen. Too bad he never completed the swap. He sold off his project on this board not too long ago.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

You are real cute with the "idiot" icon after the T-5 comment. It's amazing how you have classed a group of people with absolutely no knowledge about them or their thoughts on the LSx subject. What I thought was going to be a friendly rivalry between the TPI guys and the LSx guys has turned into name calling and vitriol from your side. As far as I am concerned you and a couple of others have jumped the shark with juvenile comments. Over and out.


"Settling for less, you mean like putting a T5 behind your set-up? "

thegooseman

I'm not saying this to be a jerk, but TPI Terrors car in that pic looks like its been touched up with photoshop. Dont get me wrong its an awesome car but not that perfect.

itsMikey

if anyone wants to actually talk about the LS swap, PM me
thanks
Mikey