Irocster

Hey guys, I know this could be on the engine board, but my main concerns here have to do with CA smog so that's why I'm posting here.....

Today I went to the mechanic to get the car picked up (due to rough idle and SES light)...he installed new spark plugs and O2 sensor as well as checked everthing including my timing. Well, guess what? Every one of my plugs were fouled really bad- lots of gummy oil on them. The car is an '89 Camaro IROC-Z 350 TPI. It has a little over 200,000 miles on it....burns a quart of oil a month....other than that it runs VERY strong with little smoke. Well, to make a long story short, I need to start planning on a new engine. This is where it gets a little confusing to me.

I've already ruled out that I'm not going to have a re-build, I have decided on a crate engine or a shortblock of some sort. I went to the GM dealer today and they told me THEE only engine I could use is a stock replacement L98 (smog legal). You know, the one that is cast, and is only a 2 bolt. Can you guys just let me know what my options here are? I'd be interested in the zz4 shortblock and then adding my own cam and re-using my heads and TPI, but I know that block isn't smog legal, but will they really look at the block at smog? Just let me know what my options are for engines and what they really check for at smog. I can go on and on here of everything I'm confused about, but I've asked enough questions. I really appreciate it...thanks.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

There is no way to tell what short block is in a car.
Now on to the replacement, don't bother with the stock heads they are not worth rebuilding. Pick a good set of aftermarket heads the ZZ4 short block and pick a cam that will be compatable with your setup (trans, converter, etc.
Don>>>

Irocster

Cool, that's what I kind or thought. Now I was just looking at the goatuocenter.com GM 350 TPI crate engine...I can get that fort the same price as the ZZ4 shortblock! I am assuming it is a stock replacement L98 and smog legal? I also noticed that it comes with a cam idenical to the crane 2032....is this really a crane cam GM put in? Just for a street driven car like mine, this engine would be great. Don't get me wrong, I think the ultimate shortblock is the ZZ4, just too expensive I think. Oh, and are my stock heads 1.94"/1.50"? And what was my stock compression? Can anyone give me some help on the engine I am talking about? Thanks Dyno Don.

slow91camaro

I bought that motor and it does come with the 2032 cam from crane.

Irocster

Can you tell me how much worse the L05 heads are compared to the L98s? And will I pass smog in CA since it isn't a "stock replacement" engine? Right now, I'm kind of leaning toward getting the GM L98 shortblock and re-building my heads and then putting 2032 in it. Plus, I like the sound of "L98" better than "L05", lol. Later

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

re-building my heads = junk....it might sound like a good idea but it's a waste. Put the money in something worth having.
Don>>>
PS you don't need to worry about what is legal ....almost anything is. To them a SBC is a SBC...period

Irocster

I was thinking of doing this: Buying the L98 shortblock w/out heads...then buying some world sportsman II heads (smog legal) and slapping those on....then the crane 2032 cam. Does this sound like a good combo? Or would this be too much for my TPI intake? I plan on doing some work on the intake too though....AFPR, and if I need to bigger injectors and port/polish. Tell me if this combo sounds good. Now I REALLY would like that ZZ4, but it is $2000 and then I would need to buy heads and everything else, compared to the $1,135 or so for the stock replacement L98 shortblock. Plus, I think the ZZ4 would be way too much for my TPI. Also, would the ZZ4 be the same as my engine now in terms of like sensors in the block and everthing? Oh, and when parts say they are 50 state C.A.R.B. legal, that means you can use them on cars newer than '73 in CA right? Thanks for the help Dyno Don.

BretD 88GTA

Why not consider a complete crate engine instead of just a short block?

Sure the L98 block may be cheaper, but by the time you buy new heads, do any machine work and so on, it will add up. Also, between the two blocks, I'd spend the extra $800 or so and get the ZZ4.

Personally, I don't like to go based strictly on price. Sure, you save some $$$, but you'll also probably be unhappy with the end result and for just a little more $$$ you can have a much better engine.

You might also want to check out Scoggin Dickey Chevrolet:
http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?act...start&catid=63
They have a good selection of crate engines, plus they also offer some "custom" versions that they produce. For $2k to $3k you could have a more complete engine. Bolt on your accessories and you're set to go.

I plan to go with the Scoggin Dickey 360 Vortec TPI engine when the time comes. However, if the funds are in my mod budget, I'll instead go with the Fast Burn 385/LT4 Hot Cam engine.

Also, don't worry about the smog issues on the block. The only thing they're concerned about is that the factory smog equipment is installed and functioning.

ssbowtie1

I ran the sportsman II's on my last combo. To really take advantage of those heads, you want a higher rpm intake and a bigger cam. I ran a custom grind comp cams 230/236 .544 .554 cam. The heads have a 200cc intake, which will compromise some low end torque for lots of high end hp, which is fine, but a clear mismatch for a TPI setup. I also ran the compucam 2032, but I ran the World Products SR heads with that cam. Honestly that cam isn't much of an impovement over a stock cam. With the 2032 cam, SR heads, and a Superram I trapped 99mph. Now this was with a burnt spark plug wire and no prom tuning. Your probably looking closer to a mid to low 13 and a 102-105 or so trap with a properly tuned and running engine. I was also running a full exhaust and a T-56 with 3.23 gears. Personally I would rebuild the bottom end, and pick a nice head/cam combo to go along with it. Crate engines are going to cost alot for their "convinience". There's alot of combos out there that'll make alot of power. If you plan on running a stock tpi setup, take a look at the vortec heads and baseplate. The 2032 cam would actually go nice with that. Then there's the vette heads. All those will need an external egr hookup but you can buy those. Anyways enough rambling if you have any questions you can PM me or just post and I'll try to help you out if I can.

Irocster

Alright, well my dad has been talking me into getting the ZZ4 too. He says that since I plan on never selling the car, I should just go through with the better engine....the ZZ4. Now let me go do some more research on this engine and which heads would go good, and I'll come back to post my finds/questions...thanks.

Irocster

Is this what you guys are talking about?:

http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?act...2175&pid=89538

If so, that sounds like a pretty good deal for everything you get. BretD- I have to get a shortblock and build up, because most of the long blocks either have crap heads or have heads that only accept a carb manifold.

Here are some questions, some may sound a little off-topic, but I need to know:

1) Are my L98 heads that I have now 58cc or 64cc? Are the valves 1.94"/1.5"?

2) What kind of warranty does the ZZ4 shortblock carry?

3) Are the vortech heads/baseplate smog legal? Since I don't think so, will a shop give me a hard time?

4) Will a shop build this engine for me and install it even though it isn't a "factory replacement" engine?

5) Someone please enlighten me on self aligning rocker arms, and will they fit on the vortech heads?

6) This all sounds pretty good: ZZ4 shortblock, vortech kit, and all, but is the 2032 too small? What if I were to add 1.6 rockers, will they fit fine on these heads?

7) I plan on adding an AFPR, but will I also need bigger injectors? I so, what size?

8) Will my original plenum/runners bolt right up to the new baseplate? (I might add slp runners later)

9) And I know dealing with the computer for all this is a whole nother topic, but tell me what to expect.

10) And here in CA, the highest fuel is 91, will my compression be low enough for 91?

11) Really the only thing I'm worrying about right now is smog inspection....I just really hate to spend $3,500 on a new engine and have them tell me it won't pass, I think I'd shoot myself.

I probably will have 10 gazillion more questions, but let's keep it to these for now. I REALLY appreciate your help guys. Thanks.

Irocster

Will the vortech heads work without the vortech baseplate? Or do you have to change the baseplate in order for those heads to work?

BrandenCali

Vortec heads work with the Sdpc Scoggin Tpi base plate.. You will need headers for the egr to be plumbed in just like how the Corvette heads are..

Irocster

What do you mean I will need headers? I mean I'm planning on hooker 2055s, but I thought the egr goes on top of the intake...???

vexter

iTrader: (3)

Irocster-

The egr valve is on the intake. Problem is, the vortec heads aren't plumbed for egr. Consequently, you need to get exhaust from the headers to the intake instead of from the heads to the intake. This is accomplished with a small tube that connects one header (on the passenger side) to the intake. There's a provision near the distributor hole.

Here's a pic that Kevin91Z shared with me a short time back. This example is home made...

Russ-So Cal

The only thing that will really mess up smog is a too large of a lobe angle on the cam, or too much overlap. A lot of cams that are supposedly not carb approved are good to go, the manufacturer just hasn't ponied up the $100,000.00 per engine, per year to pay Ca extortion prices for a carb eo #. The Scoggin-Dickey vortec tpi base is not smog legal because it only fits on vortec heads which are not smog legal because of the lack of egr ports in them. Route an external egr port like Kevin did, or like Corvettes, and it will pass visual with no problem. Most smog techs are looking at how many hundred different brands of cars? Each make has different fuel systems in different years. Just look at how many different systems are used on the small block Chevy.
Now that same tech also may do smog inspections on Ford, Chrysler, Jaguar, Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Nissan, etc. Every manufacturer has numerous different fuel sytems/smog systems. All the tech has is a vin # that he puts into the computer, and it tells him what smog equipment that engine requires. He then looks for the equipment. If he finds the required equipment, it passes visual. Then he puts it on the dyno, if it passes the sniffer, your good to go. One tip. Take your car to have a pretest done to make sure it will pass before you let them hook it up to Sacramento for the real test. You don't want to be labeled a "gross polluter."

Irocster

So will I have to CUT a whole in the header? What exactly does the EGR installatin kit include (SD3816)? Now I am kind of leaning toward the World s/r heads, 2032 route....a little more mild and easier tuning I think....could always go with 1.6 rockers to get more out of it. I gotta learn a lot more, so I definately haven't made any final decisions yet. One question, do I have to use the tpi base with the vortech heads? Is that the only way I can use those heads is if I have the base to go with it? I know you guys are telling me that all they care about is if I have smog equipment on, but I wonder why they made such a big deal about only using a "factory replacement" egine at the chevy dealer. And can somebody clear this up: When I see a product accompanied by a "C.A.R.B., 50 st. legal" sign, that means it can be used on '73 and new cars in CA, right? Just throwin some ideas around still. Thank you.

ssbowtie1

With the vortec heads, you have to buy the spdc base. The only thing is if your going to mod your engine, you want to buy a betterflowing base. So technically its not like you have pay more money for the vortec heads if you factor in getting a new baseplate regardless of what engine combo you decide on. I think its better to get the vortec heads and the baseplate as opposed to the S/R heads. You only have to drill a small hole in the rear pass primary, its not a big deal really.

Irocster

SS- I just edited and added a few more questions for ya! Oh and guys, I'm not trying to me rude or anything, but I have a lot of un-answered questions above....you all have been a huge help so far...:hail:

slow91camaro

Just because a part has a C.A.R.B. # doesn't mean it's legal for any '73 and newer motor. They're more specific than that. For instance the 2032 is C.A.R.B. approved for 87-89 TPI cars, so technically it is not legal for my '91 (but it's mild enough that I'm not worried about passing smog).

If you look through a summit catalog you might find C.A.R.B. approved carburetors, but I don't think many smog stations would pass you with a carburetor.

As long as everything appears legal and passes the sniffer you should be o.k. In fact I have Hedman Hedders that have the Air tubes for smog, but they don't have a C.A.R.B. #. I've smogged the car 3 times with them and only once had a tech even check for the C.A.R.B. #, and he let them pass anyways.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

I think what you need to do is make sure you have money, then go talk to my dad Dyno Don in person. He can tell you by your budget exactly what parts you need to turn your car into a nice fun street machine. Since you have a 350 engine now, you can rebuild that. The ultimate budget engine would be to rebuild your current block, add a nice cam like the ZZ4 or the CompuCam 2032, rebuild and port your stock heads, and add a set of headers and exhaust system. If you want the Vortec heads and intake manifold that goes with them, my dad can modify your headers to work like the picture shows. He did that to my car and to his own car (he has the Vortec heads and Scoggin Dickey intake) and both our cars passed CA smog with no problems.

Please do not get all caught up in the CA smog check. Its really easy to pass as long as you are smart and pick components that complement your engine. My dad can help you with that. He is a fair and honest man, and you wont find a better mechanic in SoCal, in my opinion.

Irocster

Where is your dad's shop at? And what kind of work does the do? I don't know if it would be a good idea to re-build that engine and heads, I think that could get more expensive than a ZZ4/heads because of all the machine work involved, plus, I'd rather have a 4 bolt. Later

ssbowtie1

The egr isntallation kit just includes an external egr pipe that you weld onto your header primary. You have to use the tpi base with the vortech heads. There's no other option unless you go carb which you can't. They made a big deal about a factory replacement motor because they're in the sales business and need to make money too. Plus they're not entusiasts like us that know what other combos can work and still pass emissions. I think your best bet would be to try and make it to Torrance on Aug 30th. I should be there and so will alot of other people and I'm sure everyone will be glad to show you their combos and what works for them. Also, you can get alot more of your questions answered.

Irocster

Where and when exactly is this meet? As for welding this thing into the header primary, I plan on getting them coated from jet-hot, so will this drilling and welding ruin that finish? Oh, and I know we are on the subject of the vortech stuff, but can someone please give me more info on the world s/r heads and what part #'s will work for me? I contacted world, but the e-mail couldn't go through for some reason. I want one of the 67cc models but don't know which would be best for me. How about the specs on my stock heads? Thanks guys.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

I took a stock 87 L98 block(2 bolt) bored .030 over, flat top pistons(2 valve), S/R torquer 67cc milled to 65cc, 10.60 compression, TPIS big mouth manifold, TPIS ZZ9 cam, Large tube runners, 52mm throttle body, SLP 1 3/4 headers, auto trans, 3.45 gears and street tires built in 1995, race at Terminal Island, Best times 13.28@104mph in an 85 Z28 with the computer not tuned and no suspension work. The short block was built for about $800. Heads $700, Cam $275, Throttle body, $250, Runners $300.

You can buy a ZZ4 cam from GM for $180. Shop around for used after market manifolds. Shop around for used Corvette heads for about $500. Some junkyards may have them.

vexter

iTrader: (3)

This may have been a typo, but to clarify, SDPC sells a special hi-flo base that's intended to mate your tpi induction with the vortec heads. This isn't the same as the stock tpi base.

Are you saying that they haven't been coated yet? If not, have your mod work done first and then send the headers off to be coated. Otherwise, yes the coating will be compromised in that area. I bought a set of uncoated headers. Once I have my egr fitting on and an extra O2 bung welded in, they're going off for their coating.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Are you saying that they haven't been coated yet? If not, have your mod work done first and then send the headers off to be coated. Otherwise, yes the coating will be compromised in that area. I bought a set of uncoated headers. Once I have my egr fitting on and an extra O2 bung welded in, they're going off for their coating

This is very important because they can't be welded on after coating. (very tough to do)
I can do the mod for you, but only if done before coating.

Where is your dad's shop at? And what kind of work does he do?

^^^^^ as in look at the sticky list above.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Stock f-body 350 heads are 64cc's, and have 1.94/1.50" valves. They flow horribly and are only suited for a stock type budget engine.

You dont need a 4-bolt block unless you're planning on spinning the engine over 6000 RPMs with a power adder. Since TPI doesnt go over 5000 RPMs, you dont need the extra cost of one.

My dad's shop is in Orange near the Arrowhead Pond. Check the thread about SoCal Thirdgen Friendly Companies. He is a general mechanic and exhaust specialist, and can handle just about any problem or question you have about our thirdgens.

If you're going to use the Vortec or Corvette heads or others without an internal EGR crossover, then you will want to have your headers modified BEFORE you get them coated. My dad's headers are coated after he modified them for the EGR crossover and it doesnt affect the coating.

Irocster

Alright, if that's the case with the 4 bolt mains, is it important to have it all forged? I know the ZZ4 has 4 bolt mains and is all forged....if you say I don't need a 4 bolt, then do I need everything to be forged? If not, then I can either re-build my engine, and put new heads/valvtrain in it, or buy the L98 motor shorblock from GM (2-bolt, everything cast) and work off of that. I'm afraid that if I were to re-build my engine, the machining costs/labor would quickly add up. IMPORTANT QUESTION: Will the World s/r heads (67cc) bolt right up to my engine and intake? It says "for '87 and later intakes", but I didn't know if it was refering to TPI or carb intakes. Part #? Well, I hope those heads will work, because if they do, I'd rather do that and keep my original baseplate and EGR setup...I also wanted to get my 2055s directly from Jet-Hot. So if I were to re-build my engine, what kind of machining costs could I expect, and what kind of prices for a new forged crank, rods, and pistons? ****, might as well have the damn thing balanced/blue printed too huh? Feel free to stop answering guys, because by now I'm sure I'm getting annoying. Later.

Irocster

I guess my question is this: Would it be possible to re-build my engine (not heads) and use all forged stuff, and all the good stuff, and keep it under the $1,135 (I think) L98 shortblock from GM?

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

You can rebuild your short block back stock or with a good set of flat top pistons including labor (bored, deck, torque plate, etc...)for under $1000. The short block will be good up to 400hp. All that forged stuff is not needed unless you are using NOS or Supercharger and spin 6000 + rpm all the time. Throw in a ZZ4 cam good heads and you will be straight. You will spend about $1600 on all the forged stuff without machine work and that's another $400 to $500.

Irocster

Oh crap.....:lala: ...now you guys got me thinkin of saving a lot of money by re-building it. Keep in mind, the engine now has over 200,000 miles on it, so will my block, crank, and rods be up to par, even after machine work?

I will have to (want to) replace pistons, bearings, entire valvtrain, timing chain, all gaskets, freeze plugs, and heads (I'm sure I'm leaving out a lot of other stuff too). While I'm there, might as well polish the crank and balance it.

Now let me get this straight, right now, my pistons, rods, and crank, are all cast right?

I just need somebody to confirm to me that either the S/R or S/R Torquer heads will work with my stock TPI manifold...?? I like the sound of the Torquers only because they have bigger valves, but damn, 76cc's is HUGE, isn't it? I can see maybe if I use some high compression pistons, that 76 cc combustion chamber will bring the compression down to a decent level right? Remember, I am limited to 91 octane.

Oh, and just for reference, are the vortech heads 58 cc, 64 cc, 72 cc, or 76 cc? If they are 67 cc, then they are pretty much the same head as the regular S/R. Thanks again guys, I am learning sooo much!!!!!!

trans87

I just went out and bought a 1998 Vortec shortblock, some ZZ4 heads, and a ZZ4 cam and got the motor I have for not very much money at all. Since you already have a 350 I would rebuild the shortblock. Find a pair of used good condition ZZ4 or Vette heads and buy a ZZ4 cam off Ebay (they are real cheap, mine cost me $85 brand new). That seems to to be the cheapest route. With that combo too you will have a pretty nice motor, basically a ZZ4.

formula91

Hmm... so if its no big deal then, the Vortec combo is really a viable option for a California car?

Very interesting....

Russ-So Cal

When rebuilding your existing engine, I would reccomend replacing your rods and pistons automatically. You will need pistons regardless because with 200,000 miles on it you will probably need to go .030 over at least. Rods are some of the most stressed parts in an engine, so I would go with new rods as well. The crank should still be ok. If it is scored, or worn, it may need to be ground .010 under. The machine shop can tell you about that.

Irocster

Alright, replacing the rods too isn't a problem, they are cheap. But you see, if I am going to put new pistons and rods in, they are going to be forged, no doubt about it. I'm not going to go out of my way to tear apart this engine and put ****ty parts in it. So my question is, will it be ok to run the forged pistons and rods with the original cast crank?

If I did it .030 over, what would the final cubes be?

Does anyone know of a formula to figure out compression? Like a formula that you can enter in the compression of the pistons, and the cc's of the heads and you will get the final compression?



Now let me get this straight, right now, my pistons, rods, and crank, are all cast right?

I just need somebody to confirm to me that either the S/R or S/R Torquer heads will work with my stock TPI manifold...?? I like the sound of the Torquers only because they have bigger valves, but damn, 76cc's is HUGE, isn't it? I can see maybe if I use some high compression pistons, that 76 cc combustion chamber will bring the compression down to a decent level right? Remember, I am limited to 91 octane.

Oh, and just for reference, are the vortech heads 58 cc, 64 cc, 72 cc, or 76 cc? If they are 67 cc, then they are pretty much the same head as the regular S/R. Thanks again guys, I am learning sooo much!!!!!!

BretD 88GTA

I'd estimate you'll be into a "good" motor for around $2k to $3k. Regardless of which route you go.

Take a look at Vincent's numbers from his earlier post -
Those numbers add up to $2,325. Plus I'm sure there are some additional costs in their that Vincent didn't include. I'll bet he spent close to $3k.

It all depends on what you want to do and how you want to go about doing it. You can rebuild your current motor and find good deals on parts. Keep in mind thought that you'll then have to run around getting machine work done which brings up the cost. Again, though, if that's what you'd prefer to do, then by all means I say go for it. There's no real right or wrong answer. It comes down to personal preference.

Irocster

Yeah, I'm still undecided....between a re-build or the ZZ4 shortblock.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

I just rebuilt a stock Vortec short block.030 over=355cu) with stock rods, stock crank and Keith Black 2 valve pistons for less $900.

Irocster

Alright, guys, just have a few more questions then I think I will pretty much be on my way. I've learned so much here and now I just need to make a decision on my own.

1) I know I've asked a lot, but I'd like an answer.....Will both the S/R and the S/R Torquer heads work on my stock TPI manifold? And do I want the heads with the single valve springs (.560 max lift) or the dual springs (.600 max lift)....I know the lift thing is a no-brainer, but I didn't know if the heavier duty ones had and advantage.

2) What size combustion chambers do the Vortech heads have?

3) What is the deal with self-aligning rocker arms? Will they go right onto the world heads? What is the difference between these and normal rocker arms?

4) Will there have to be a modification to the heads to run 1.6 rockers?

Thank You

Irocster

Now I keep reading about how much S/R heads suck (not just air)

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

1 )They will but they need a lot of work to make them good (SR stand for stock replacement)
2)64cc's
3) must use if you have push rod holes instead of slots
4) maybe, things like that have to be checked

Answer to next post ,,,,they do in stock form. (suck)
Don>>>

Irocster

Hmmm...just noticed TPIS offers used L98 heads with all the work done with them, fully assembled....$1,250 with a $700 core. So that would be $550 if I gave them my heads correct? Or I can just have the machine copy what they did to my heads, then I won't have to worry about buying new heads

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

That $700 core charge is for a stock set of L98 aluminum heads, not your iron L98 heads. For that price you can find a pair of used aluminum heads or brand new ZZ4 heads someone is selling.

Your cheapest bet would be reusing your stock heads with new valve springs and a decent cam, or upgrading to Vortec heads with the Scoggin Dickey intake. Check with Dyno Don on Vortec heads. His car runs low 13's with them.

Irocster

Can you please inform me on what a "core charge" is? I keep seeing it, and I guess I'm confusing it. If I find that my heads are in good shape, then I will re-build them. I've made my decions that the vortechs aren't gonna cut it for me.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

The core charge is what they charge you to replace the item on their shelves. They're selling you a set of ported L98 Corvette heads, in exchange for your stock L98 Corvette heads. They want your heads so they can port those and resell them. If they dont get your heads in return, then they have to buy another set, and that's what they charge for.
Lots of items have core charges. That's when they take your old part, refurbish it, and sell it to someone else.

slow91camaro

A core charge is a fee you pay when you buy a rebuilt item that will be refunded when you give them your old part. If your alternator went out and you went down to autozone and bought a $100 replacement they would charge you $100 plus a core charge of maybe $30, so it would cost you $130 plus tax. Once you pulled your old alternator you would take it down to autozone and they would refund the $30 core charge.

A core charge basically implies your buying a remanufactered part and they want your old part to rebuild and re-sell. This keeps the cost down from them and for you. If you were to buy a brand new alternator from chevy it would probably run you at least $150, but there probably wouldn't be much of a quality difference.

If you see something for $1000 and it has a $300 core charge, they'll want either $1300 or $1000 and an "acceptable" core before they'll send you your part. Hope that makes sense.

slow91camaro

He said it better while I was slowly typing. Oh well.

Irocster

You both said it great, thanks. Kevin- Once I get my new motor in (whatever combo it may be in the end) will I be able to go by your place to have you burn a chip for me? What do you usually charge for that?

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Who's going to put together your engine and install it?

Of course I can do a chip for you. Email me regarding price.