Hey guys. Just a thought - is cutting the body really worth the trouble for changing a fuel pump that you may only do once or twice in a lifetime on these cars? It doesn't make any sense to me and really advise against it. The hole compromises the structure of the body as well. Try taking a piece of metal and bend it. Then take another piece of the same size and cut a hole in it. See how much easier it is to bend the one with the hole in it? To say the hole will not make the body weaker is definately ignorance. Not to mention devaluing the car as well. If you need to replace your fuel pump, please do it the correct way and save yourself the hassle. If anyone disagrees with what I say here, please speak up and justify your case! If the hole was meant to be there, GM would have put it there from the factory to cut down on warranty times. They would rather pay a tech for 15 minutes of work rather than 2-3 hours if it didn't hurt the car.

 

Go the Tech/General forum for all the other posts on this topic. Its a pretty heated debate, like TPI vs TBI, or EFI vs Carb, or MAP vs MAF.

 

Oh, we know! LOL, we kind of mixed it up with a crowd in tech/general who apparently think there should be a hole there. I said it there and I'll say it here. If the fuel pump lasts around 60,000 miles, then that means I will have to replace my pump every 30 years or so! (Wishful thinking, I know, but I only drive my F-bodies around 2,000 miles a year!)

I just dont approve of cutting a car up in order to make an easy job, easier!

 

Just want input from people on this board.

 

That's going to be tough. The board has been deserted for a while. (As you know.) I try to get here every night, (As you also know!) but we'll see.

 

If you decide to go the cut route, let me know. I have some decent pictures that I gathered for a friend awhile back that will show exactly where to cut. I personally would drop the tank but my buddy not only cut his low mileage 1990 IROC but his son's 38,000 original miles, pristine GTA. I dropped the tank on my 1985 IROC when I went from TPI to carb. I made it tougher than it needed to be because I had a full tank. The beauty of pulling the tank is it gives you an excellent opportunity to clean the insides of the tank. I drained all my gas and there was a ton of dirt on the bottom. It's no wonder our pumps go out!! It really made me feel good that I was starting over with very clean interior on my tank.

 

I cut mine and did it a few months ago took me all of about twenty minutes, id say its worth it.

 

I personally agree with wesilva. I have three of these and I believe the right way, is the right way. Plus the added benefit of getting your tank clean. I have three of these cars and would never go that route. Its like having a car that has been wrecked and the back-halved. May look the same, but it most certainly is not. Also, I used to work at a body shop and can remember a Sweet camaro that had been rear ended. The vehicle had been in a minor rear end collision and needed straightening. After a minor tear down it was discovered that a "Hole" had been cut in the trunk floor. Because it could not be returned to stock form for less than the value of the car, it was totalled. The insurance company would have nothing to do with it as, without replacement of the floorpan, it could not be certified "Safe".

 

Exactly! Certified Safe! Safety is the issue here. I minor crash could destroy the car and maybe the driver as well. The rear floor does not have the hole because it is not rigid enough to withstand a minor crash with it. Cutting the hole is a red-neck way of doing things and if that is how people are going to fix cars, then they should have to forfeit there tools!

 

LOL, I dont know about that, but if I see that on a car, it makes me question the quality of any other repairs on the vehicle. It makes me think "If they took the easy/lazy way out on this, then just imagine what kind of shortcuts were made elsewhere in the car". My .02 c.

 

i cut a hole in my car. i didnt cut up a 90 IROC with 15,000 miles on it. i cut a hole in a 88 sport coupe with around 160,000 miles. undesirable car. nobody cares! if i DID have a 90 IROC with low miles i would drop the tank.

 

I'm not going to knock anyone who has done it because dropping the tank is not the easiet task especially on cars in the 20 to 30 year old range. But consider this for a second. GM engineers in a support bar that's bolted to the body just above your panhard rod. It's there to sure up the rear of the car. And then you go and cut the floor....just doesn't make sense to me. These are unit body cars. It they had full frames, there would be no question that we would not be having this discussion. If you had seen the amount of labor and money I put into my IROC to eliminate flex, you would have said I was pretty **** about integrity...and you would be correct.

 

LOL, exactly! I am also **** about my cars. Thirdgens are already flexy, why make it worse?

 

I did this and I'm glad I did. I don't like other people working on my car. If you take it to a shop they will charge you for 5 hours labor if I'm remembering correctly. Now I can change the pump very easily and quickly.

 

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...el+pump+access

Yeah i took it to a shop who wanted $600
(I don't have a lift, so dropping the rear, exhaust, etc, would be a pain).

I asked how they knew it was the fuel pump, because they claimed an hour and a half of diagnosis. I had already replaced the relay, so i chuckled a little. I asked them what they were doing for an hour and a half, and then i had to laugh a little. They claimed that they pulled the pump to test it. LOL. I was like " you do realize that it's an in tank pump, and that's like a four hour jump, and that you definitely didn't drop it".

At any rate I'm doing the door tomorrow.

And as far as rigidity, if you pop rivet or securely reattach sheet metal properly then it's a non-issue.

 

I hope you didnt pay them for the "Diagnostics", LOL. Click: Where do you live? It's really not that hard to do. (Much easier than swapping a motor or trans) I live in AZ, so we dont deal with rust like many parts of the US. I have done it a few times with just 2 jackstands and a floor jack. There are exactly 9 bolts that need to be removed to do this: Exhaust=4, right lower control arm=1, right rear shock=1, brake line dist. block on axle (Optional)=1, tank strap=2. and then 4 fuel/vapor lines, and 1 electrical connector. It took me and my wife a couple of hours to do it the last time, but no big deal.

 

I cut the panel out on a 4th gen and I was so glad i did, if you do it right, take your time and be careful you can have it in and out in an hour or so and make it look like it came that way from the factory. On top of that if you ever have to do it again you have the access panel made and its even easier. I have some pics of the process ill post later.

 

here are some pics of when I did the pump in a 4th gen. Same basic deal with the 3rd gens though so you get the idea...
cut the hole with a dremel tool.

replaced the pump then got a piece of aluminum and measured out the size of the hole and added 1 1/2" for the template.

got me some rivets...

drilled me some holes for my rivets.....

added high temp silicone sealer to the edge of the hole and riveted the panel in place.

 

damn, i have to give you props chris this is the first time ive seen you get heated on a subject lol

Personally i think if you do it you are an idiot. i have an idea, how about we cut open out fenders to make it easier to change our spark plugs! huh? anyone?

Point being stop being lazy, do the work dont damage your car.

And i dont care what anyone says about "its haaaard" "i cant do it that way" BULL. ive done this twice thanks to poor quality parts i got from checker, once in the air on a lift, and once in my dirt driveway in queen creek in the middle of the day its not that hard to unbolt your catback, jack up the car, undo the rear and let it sag, then unbolt your tank and drop it. granted theres always hangups involved with every job on our cars but still, man up get your hands dirty and do it. OH, and did i mention that my car decided to sink into the drive? made it just a tiiiny bit more difficult but its worth it.

IMO you can hack your car if you want to, have fun paying for it later.

I also cant help but think of how much a saftey issue this brings up. Granted IR90C, thats a very clean job and done properly, sealed, and contained. Now how many stupid people do we have driving on the road these days? Keep in mind we're in arizona one of the worst in the country, now what happens when joe schmoe does this "mod" instead of doing it right, then decided to drive like an idiot and ends up in a crash. When the body flexes, and that ghetto cut he made bends straight to the fuel lines im thinking theres gonna be a bit of a problem. ITS A FIRE HAZARD!

What happens when the lines rot and the fuel leaks into the car?
What about when he cuts too far and gashes the tank?

Best case scenario nothing goes wrong, and worst you die. Personally i like to take the best and worse and reaaaaly weigh them out and consider if the gain is better than the risk but i dunno you guys can be an f-body bonfire if you want but just keep in mind that the engineers spent a great deal of time designing our cars to be safe and reliable, cutting into that is like slapping them in the face lol

 

obviously i dont think its such a bad idea the do the "mod". First, there are many vehicles that came from the factory with these types of access panels for getting at and replacing the fuel pump. Second, i understand the safely hazards associated with this job, but there are safety hazards with anything you do, if you dont look both ways before crossing the street you could die just like if you dont take your time and pay attention doing this mod. The job is done at your own risk just like anything else you do, but I beleive GM would have done this themselves had it not cost them .05cents more per unit built, and if they had cared more about the techs out in the field fixing these issues. I dont beleive its so much about building these car this way for a reason than it was to save a few million dollars. I feel like im just doing something GM should have done i the first place...

 

What cars came factory with an opening from the top to access the fuel pickup?????

 

nissan sentras, honda civics, mercury cougars, some volvos, chrysler sebrings, toytoa 4 runners, as well as some gm models like pontiac grand prixs

 

And I'm pretty sure the engineers made sure the area around the access panels were reinforced. The floor above and around the tank is a crumple zone - designed to protect the tank! Break the tank and next spark that happens blows up the car. I used to work for Jaguar (hence the name) and they have access panels too, but they are reinforced and designed to save the company money on warranty items. To the do-it-yourself people out there, there is a right way and a wrong way of doing things. I've seen some cars out there that have had lazy repairs and caused many other issues (Jason's T/A, Aaron's Iroc, Chris's GTA). Kinda have to question any other repairs along with Jason that would compromise my safety.

 

i did it the hard way and it blows. I dropped the axle, suspension and exhaust. Luckly I used to work in a shop so it wasnt as hard because I had a lift, but I'd rather pay somebody next time.

 

I also have a dirt yard to work in and the car also sunk a little on me (Plus I did the job in july in 115 degree temperature.) My wife and I did it in a couple hours. No big deal. There are a few cars with access panels, but if you look, almost none are hatchbacks. This is to seperate the fuel from the occupants in a crash. I have only seen 2 models of car that are hatchbacks with an access door (Both hondas and both late '80's to early 90's models.) Can the "Mod" be done properly? Sure, but it's a lot of work and requires dropping the tank anyways, to put a support structure in for the door.

 

LOL
After 20 years nothing about these cars anymore is "safe" or "reliable".
10 years ago they might have been reliable, but you can't tell me they were safe then.

And engineers work with fixed budgets, and fixed time. They often make compromises to safe cost and prevent changes to assembly lines. You can't tell me they designed the car in it's perfect form. There's room to improve in practically every way. I don't mean to bash our cars, I mean, I have one too, but in general they're not that reliable. I mean, out of all the members on this forum, a great deal of them use them as summer or just for fun weekend cars, not daily drivers. I've gone through a few F-Body's myself and honestly the cost to fix one up from standard condition is ridiculous. I've put 3x the blue book into my car and it's still not done.


And for the record, nearly every common maintenance job that you do has a worst case scenario of death.
Worst: You change your oil, forgot the oil plug, drive 15 feet out of your driveway, get to about 30, swerve as you freak out into headon traffic.
Best case: You switch to synthetic and notice a slight increase in hp, and don't have to change your oil for another 3000!

The point is an idiot will always find a way to mess it up. You can't tell me someone couldn't mess up just as badly dropping the tanks.

 

Its not hard to drop a tank if you have a lift and a tranny jack and three other people to make sure you dont drop the axle on your head lol. It took me about an hour and a half. Its funny because I dropped the tank to install another one and this stupid shop that supposedly specialized in camaros and mustangs kept giving me the wrong tank. the first one they gave was for a MUSTANG. The second one the fuel neck was snapped off. then they gave me store credit. A year later I try and use it and they said its no good. Anyways my original tank had a hairline crack in it so I drilled a small hole into the crack, installed an expansion plugged and put some gold old jb weld around it. Havent had a leak since then and that was 4 years ago. Bottom line the cut out is a better choice unless your turning it into a show car. The sheet metal cover may not look to fancy holding the back end together. Then again you cant see it.

 

And even as a show car you wouldn't know like you said. But if you're going so far to make a showcar, dropping the rear is nothing :P.

 

id say the real important question here is how the heck do you get your carpet back under the trim pieces after youve cut and swapped the pump, i bet i had more time into trying to get the carpet right than the actual swap...

Happy st pattys day

cheers

 

if it was as easy to get to the fuel pump as it was to get to the spark plugs i dont see why this would even be a discussion. your callin me an idiot because i cut a 3 sided hole bent it back down and tacked it up on the corners? your prolly thinkin OMG HE WLEDED!??! yeah i did. i put 2 tacks on it. and yeah im sure it makes the car "less sturdy" but if that was SUCH a big deal than we shouldnt drive ttops or verts either! it should be hard top cause were just SOOOO worried about how strong our cars are. look i dont think your going to have ANY noticable difference if you got in an accident. pretty sure right after you get into a bad accident that put you in the hospital you wont say "damn if i didnt cut that hole id be just fine right now!!" its not a big difference!!! stop acting like we just cut the car in half. if its not your car being cut into then why the hell do you care?? just shut up already.

 

The pump never seems to fail in your driveway or garage. So instead of calling a tow truck. I carry an extra pump and a few tools with me so that I can change my pump in 10mins and be on my way.

 

LOL, well Chris, you wanted a heated discussion... You got one! LOL. All I will say is that; As an I-CAR certified bodyman and electrician, the area in question IS in a "Crumple-zone" Any modifications done to this area can only compromise the structural integrity of this crumple zone. It is your car and you can do whatever you wish to it. As stated earlier, I have seen on one occasion where a 5 year old thirdgen with this modification was totalled because of this mod. The impact was so minor that the rear bumper cover wasnt even damaged (Paint was scuffed, but nothing a new coat of paint wouldnt fix.) There was buckling in the hatch where there shouldnt have been and the Mod was discovered. At that point state farm wouldnt have anything more to do with it. This is my own personal experience.

 

I still think I'd rather be a pro and just drop the tank. You get to clean the tank this way anyhow, and I don't have to worry about any of the possible problems with doing it the lazy way. While it may not be cutting the car in half, you are putting a hole in your car, and on the one spot where the fuel tank can open.

A. You can get cancer from slow, unsmellable leaks coming through your car while you're driving. You just cut a hole right over your FUEL PUMP. While you may not see leaks, there are always going to be leaks on a mollecular level, and since (at least me) you drive the car every day, it's just adding to your health risks.
B. Rust.
C. Water.
D. Proffessionalism.

And if I WERE to cut a hole in the back of my car, I'd put a solid border of sheetmetal around the hole, then WELD in a piece in the middle, using some gasket maker to seal the piece in place. If you just leave the cut open, you're asking for trouble.

My

 

Becareful welding right at the fuel source!!!!!

 

If I changed my pump more than once because of failure, I would start investigating the problem. There is probably a crap load of dirt in your tank. Now your dropping the tank regardless.

And just to add fuel to the fire. If you paid top dollar for a 3rd Gen and you discovered the floor had been cut, how would you feel?

 

well yeah you would have fuel fuems thats why i covered it with see-ka-flex or however you spell it. im sure itll be fine and fortunately i dont sit in the back hatch when i drive so im sure i wont get the 100% of whatever impact is back there

 

awwwww i think i pushed one too many buttons there. My bad. You seem to be defending it pretty hard bud, but its your car and its my opinion so you can take it oooorrr judging by your heated response you wont, doesnt hurt me either way OH! and one more thing; we drive t-tops and verts because they engineer the correct provisions to keep us safe. Slapping them in the face here

thank you wesilvia you nailed it on the head, if something breaks theres a reason, "age" is the main excuse for our cars and im sure theres alot of members are the dreaded parts changers i keep running into around here, "oh my car wont start must be "______". When it breaks figure it out, may be the wiring, may be the pump or whatever but i dont see the sense in gashing up my car to diagnose the problem. AGAIN; man up, do the work and do it right. Maybe its just how i was raised but if you dont have the time to do it right the first time then how will you have the time to go back and redo it? You get into a fender bender and that crumples, say good bye to your car it wont see the pavement again. Then youll be kicking yourself because it crumpled "just enough"

BTW Way to go chris i love this thread

 

I would be very upset!!! I would probably get rid of it.

 

you guys are rediculous. its a ****in hole. get over it. these cars are 20 years old. as my grandpa said a millions times its just metal, cut it. best thing about metal is that it can be welded and fixed!! i can cut my door in half, weld it back up, grind it down, put some bondo on it, sand it, paint it and its just as good as it was. me and my grandpa chopped the top of a 40 plymouth pick up. guess what it works just fine. stop gettin so mad about a hole, if you want to not have a hole when you buy your car, then drop your tank (cause its just so simple) and patch it up. fix the damn thing. your gonna get rid of a car cause it had a hole in it??? when we restored our 39 desoto it didnt have 40% of the metal it came with and its just damn fine. you say your gonna sell a car because theres a hole in it the i guess id call YOU lazy for not fixing the damn thing.


everybody does things differently. just because we do it different doesnt make it WRONG. i pull the engine out of the car, some people drop the whole crossmember and pull car OVER the engine. some people pull the engine and tranny seperate, some pull it all together. dont critisize people for doing things different. dont call them idiots. it makes you look like an idiot. im done posting here, this is a never ending arguement. youll never change anybodys mind about how to do things, so stop wasting your time.

 

But there is a right way and a wrong way of doing things. What I would like to see is that people start doing the the correct way and stop taking short cuts. It's a huge thing for me because I have worked in the industry. I've seen what short cuts can do to a car and charged customers to fix the issues that should have never happened to begin with. Short cuts lead to a ton of other issues and could be avoided if things are done correctly. I've taken many cars apart and know it is really easy to screw things up by taking short cuts. If I was out to buy another one of these cars, this is the first thing I would be looking for. Everything else I can fix properly. Cutting a hole in the floor for a short cut is rediculous and should be reconsidered due to how often a pump really needs to be changed.

If you are done posting here, then good. It's just a discussion and not a waste of time. This is the most traffic we've seen in here in a long time. If it is wasting your time, then don't read it!

 

Really good pionts, But I personally think GM should have made a cover there to change the pump in the first place. I think they did it the way they did because it cost less, and the dealers get to charge you out the ahole for labor.

After you do this wonderfull little mod to your third gen you can see how clean your tank is and clean it out if needed.
I only had to change my pump once because it went bad I did it the "right way" and took it to a GM dealer to had it fixed. I had to do it that way because I lived in a apartment at the time. I didn't mind paying 75 dollars an hour for labour because I thought dealership mecanics were profesionals and would do a good job working on my car. I was wrong when I got my car back it looked like they let some kids come in and slap it back together. Thats was the last time I ever made that mistake While I do admire professional mechanics I think for the most part they just want you car gone asap and generally do crappy work.
The next time I changed it to put a higher flow pump in to feed 36lb injectors on a 400hp engine. So I did this mod to be done with having to have my car towed if such a simple thing like an electric fuel pump goes out.

I would never sell my car with telling the buyer about the fuel pump mod. I'm sure the thought of being able to change the pump for 100 dollars rather than 600 would be a deal killer. But I'm not selling it.

As far as fumes go I think that it goes without saying that the hole must be sealed absolutely airtight.

I will give one thing to the detractors of this mod one thing. actually doing it is stupid and should not be atempted buy anyone. It's not very comfortable to be cutting metal that leads into the fuel tank. And if you do it you better have a full tank. Once its done It's awesome.

 

Not to nitpick but why would you cut the door in half when you could pop off the door panel???

Nobody ever said we were trying to change your mind dude i mean damn this is just a conversation, ya know that thing where 2 parties present their points and talk about it? Not trip out because theres more people against it?

BTW one thing i never understood; how is Illinois anywhere close to the southwest? we appreciate you posting here and all but if your gonna cry about it then dont come back

As far as a dealer goes, our cars have no business in a dealership theres 20 years of newer cars they care more about because teyre newer, crappy outlook on it but its true. I was at a dealer on an internship and when an 89 iroc came in everyone groaned because it was a suspension job, they see our cars as archaic rolling junk in most cases and i think its more of a do it yourself car or dont have it done right. 90% of the members on here are mechanically inclined and could probably be a tech so why not use your talents to fix your own stuff at a moderate cost as opposed to the insane bill the service writer is gonna hand you?

 

Actually.....No.

I found out mine was cut and NOTHING put back over the hole. In fact, even the carpet was cut on 3 sides then folded back.

Nothing covering the hole now, but the flap of carpet & insulation layer.....And ZERO exhaust nor gasoline smell inside my car. If the pump/sending unit mount has a good ring, there shouldn't be any gas smell. And if your exhaust gaskets are good.....and is welded good, there will be no exhaust smell.

 

You are right about the gas fumes and all. The tank should be completely sealed. If not, you have something wrong with it. That hissing noise when you open your gas cap to fill up is supposed to be there. That will tell you that the tank is airtight like it's supposed to be. Sorry that your car was hacked into, Stephen. The purpose of this thread was to educate and discuss the pros and cons about doing this "fabrication". It all started with a guy from tech/general who wanted to do the hole because he thought the pump was bad. Turned out it wasn't the pump and it was the start relay. It made him think about the problem and look into it further before damaging his car. My view is to do the job correctly and keep the car the way it was meant to be. Also to think about how things are being done out there and to get people to think before they act.

 

Don't be sorry......I'm actually GLAD mine is that way. Its the way GM shoulda done it to begin with. Lift the carpet, open the trap door.

I've thought about making an aluminum "race style" door, exposed on top of the carpet.

 

reinforce the spot with a metal door kinda like the guy did above, and you should see no problems, if youre already there then its ok but honestly choosing to do it is entirely different in my opinion lol

 

I konw this is a late post but I have a mercury cougar as my daily driver. And when I had to change the fuel pump on it I had do drop my tank like everyone else.. there is no door for quick access... Do the job right the first time...!!!

 

and you've got the nerve to question someone elses motives? point of fact, all this nagging about it weakening the body is complete hogwash if done correctly. personally, i call peoples judgement into question who would go through all the hassle of doing it the hard headed way instead of doing what gm should have done to begin with.

i think we've all heard enough from the peanut gallery. if you guys don't have relevant info to provide to the op's original post, and you choose to post this drivel anyway, prepare to get called on it. enough is enough.

 

hate to burst your bubble but my last post in here was dated 3-20-09 why did you quote me?

and for the record i am going to get on people about cutting into things that shouldnt be cut into. As far as that hard headed comment, yes im hard headed because i do things the right way, i do it all by the proper procedure. Doesnt matter it its soldering my harness instead of crimping it or if its dropping my tank. Man up and do it, if you dont like the work then go ahead and let your car turn into trash after you "modded" it eventually one of them is going to be the end of it. Better yet go buy yourself a car that has a door so you dont have to complain about the work

this thread is officially killed.

 

Actually, you helped to revive the thread.....

I say to cut the door in, to fix a factory oversight. GM should have done it, but just wanted an excuse to overcharge the customers. Like the heater core. There is factory recommended way & the way it is really done (which is WAY factory & honestly? Easy to do.

There is virtually NO loss in structure rigidity in cutting the fuel pump access door, certainly not enough to affect the car in any way, so don't try to claim there is. That part of the floor does very little to retain the cars structure. Its just a trunk floor.

Besides, SFCs will improve structural rigidity so much anyways, that it doesn't matter. Or those a no-no too, in your eyes? The factory never put them on, so why add weight? Surely what the factory did is perfectly fine. No need to put bigger brakes on either. That's just anther "hack" right? After all. You hafta cut the spindles up to fit them.

When I'm done with my pump in 30 minutes tops and your lucky to even the gas tank unbolted.....Don't forget, chances are, the pump will die RIGHT after filling the tank with gas, nor anywhere near the jack or jackstands you'll need.....I'll be sitting back after just washing my hands, and be laughing at you. M'kay?

Let's face it...Access Doors are fixing a factory oversight. That is why it is common in newer cars. What if the '09 Camaro has one????? Whatcha gonna say then?