odd WB behaviour- datalog enclosed
#1
odd WB behaviour- datalog enclosed
Hi team
continue to work through the tune of my l31 hot cam TA and finally have pulled a data log. Clearly the EBL VE learns have been doing their thing but have noticed a bit of an odd phenomena with the WB appearing to oscillate by about 1 point for each row of the datalog capture. Enclosed is a small example data log extract showing what I mean. My wb gauge more consistently shows the lower (richer) reading.
given how regularly it oscillates, I'm inclined to believe that it isn't a real reading.
Newly purchased innovate LC2 and gauge. Settings haven't been touched, and have simply added the device to the ADC channels in the EBL system
thoughts most welcome.
continue to work through the tune of my l31 hot cam TA and finally have pulled a data log. Clearly the EBL VE learns have been doing their thing but have noticed a bit of an odd phenomena with the WB appearing to oscillate by about 1 point for each row of the datalog capture. Enclosed is a small example data log extract showing what I mean. My wb gauge more consistently shows the lower (richer) reading.
given how regularly it oscillates, I'm inclined to believe that it isn't a real reading.
Newly purchased innovate LC2 and gauge. Settings haven't been touched, and have simply added the device to the ADC channels in the EBL system
thoughts most welcome.
#2
Re: odd WB behaviour- datalog enclosed
I'm not so sure it's odd behavior... if you consider the following. The sampling rate on the data seems pretty fast... so within one second worth of data, you can get numerous cylinder firings.
Your data looks to be exclusively around 1000 rpm... At 1000 rpm, you get 500 cylinder firings per minute on a given cylinder on a four stroke engine. So for the side of the engine facing the WB, that's 4 cylinders firing. So you get 4 x 500 = 2000 firings per minute. ~33 cylinder firings per second.
It looks like you're getting about 17 line items per second of data? So purely on a time scale, each line item is approximately two cylinders firing?
Then you have the Hot Cam, which probably has a decent amount of overlap. And your data is all being taken at fairly low rpm where overlap can hurt the volumetric efficiency of the engine, and cause sporadic rich/lean conditions.
So I might expect some significant variation in the WB readings.
You also appear to be at 25C (~73F) on your coolant temp and in open loop, so a cold engine with a moderate overlap cam... yeah the WB readings actually don't seem that bad to me.
Your data looks to be exclusively around 1000 rpm... At 1000 rpm, you get 500 cylinder firings per minute on a given cylinder on a four stroke engine. So for the side of the engine facing the WB, that's 4 cylinders firing. So you get 4 x 500 = 2000 firings per minute. ~33 cylinder firings per second.
It looks like you're getting about 17 line items per second of data? So purely on a time scale, each line item is approximately two cylinders firing?
Then you have the Hot Cam, which probably has a decent amount of overlap. And your data is all being taken at fairly low rpm where overlap can hurt the volumetric efficiency of the engine, and cause sporadic rich/lean conditions.
So I might expect some significant variation in the WB readings.
You also appear to be at 25C (~73F) on your coolant temp and in open loop, so a cold engine with a moderate overlap cam... yeah the WB readings actually don't seem that bad to me.
#4
Re: odd WB behaviour- datalog enclosed
thanks both
Ultm8Z, apols, the datalog I posted was a snippet of a 10mb file of a fairly varied drive and the WB observation continues pretty much throughout. A slightly larger extract enclosed. Car is set to run open-loop and the WB sensor is at the y-merge (so should be seeing the exhaust of all 8 cylinders).
dabomb6608 - thanks for posting that. Exactly, your wb doesn't seem to dart about a point like what I'm seeing with mine
not ruling out an actual firing issue, but given the wb gauge isn't jumping around, I'm starting to suspect it may be a grounding issue; the WB and ECU do not share the same direct ground. I messaged RBob about the best way to do that without risking frying the EBL unit, but haven't heard back.
absolutely happy to continue to hear thoughts; just scratching the surface with datalogs and currently overwhelmed with the data!
Ultm8Z, apols, the datalog I posted was a snippet of a 10mb file of a fairly varied drive and the WB observation continues pretty much throughout. A slightly larger extract enclosed. Car is set to run open-loop and the WB sensor is at the y-merge (so should be seeing the exhaust of all 8 cylinders).
dabomb6608 - thanks for posting that. Exactly, your wb doesn't seem to dart about a point like what I'm seeing with mine
not ruling out an actual firing issue, but given the wb gauge isn't jumping around, I'm starting to suspect it may be a grounding issue; the WB and ECU do not share the same direct ground. I messaged RBob about the best way to do that without risking frying the EBL unit, but haven't heard back.
absolutely happy to continue to hear thoughts; just scratching the surface with datalogs and currently overwhelmed with the data!
#5
Re: odd WB behaviour- datalog enclosed
Looking at this larger data set, I think my observations still stand for the most part. In fact the WB is seeing the entire engine, then you have even more firings being sampled per line item in the data. And again, the engine seems to be at low rpms for all of this data (mostly all below 1500 rpm), where significant cam overlap can result in inefficient operation.
It'd certainly be good to do what you can to avoid electrical ground loops as much as possible. But the WB gauge jumping around or not could also be a function of the display update rate on the gauge vs the sampling rate of the EBL.
It'd certainly be good to do what you can to avoid electrical ground loops as much as possible. But the WB gauge jumping around or not could also be a function of the display update rate on the gauge vs the sampling rate of the EBL.
#7
Re: odd WB behaviour- datalog enclosed
How does your wide band behave? Mine fluctuates a bit too... though only about 1/2 point either way... my cam is pretty mild though.
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#8
Re: odd WB behaviour- datalog enclosed
Glanced at the LT4 cam specs. We have basically the same cam. Only main difference is he has 113 separation vs my 112.
LT4
Adv Int Duration: 279
Adv Ex Duration: 287
Lobe Sep: 112
XFI 280
Adv Int Duration: 280
Adv Ex Duration: 288
Lobe Sep: 113
Last edited by dabomb6608; Today at 08:22 AM.
#9
Re: odd WB behaviour- datalog enclosed
Looks pretty normal to me: https://datazap.me/u/tequilaboy/wb-d...mark=1188-2290
Always going to be some variation along with map and rpm and everything else.
Always going to be some variation along with map and rpm and everything else.
#10
Re: odd WB behaviour- datalog enclosed
Looks pretty normal to me: https://datazap.me/u/tequilaboy/wb-d...mark=1188-2290
Always going to be some variation along with map and rpm and everything else.
Always going to be some variation along with map and rpm and everything else.
I'd be suspicious if it was my setup.
#11
Re: odd WB behaviour- datalog enclosed
I think 100 ms gets you 3 cylinder firings at 1000 rpm if I did my math correctly?
If there's some sort of low rpm fuel distribution issue from side to side (like the so-called "split BLM" phenomeon), I could see some significant variation.
What happens at higher RPM's when the cam moves into more of it's efficient range of operation.
If there's some sort of low rpm fuel distribution issue from side to side (like the so-called "split BLM" phenomeon), I could see some significant variation.
What happens at higher RPM's when the cam moves into more of it's efficient range of operation.
#12
Re: odd WB behaviour- datalog enclosed
I think 100 ms gets you 3 cylinder firings at 1000 rpm if I did my math correctly?
If there's some sort of low rpm fuel distribution issue from side to side (like the so-called "split BLM" phenomeon), I could see some significant variation.
What happens at higher RPM's when the cam moves into more of it's efficient range of operation.
If there's some sort of low rpm fuel distribution issue from side to side (like the so-called "split BLM" phenomeon), I could see some significant variation.
What happens at higher RPM's when the cam moves into more of it's efficient range of operation.
Here's a similar chart from one of my datalogs at idle.
There is certainly up and down variances. But they are inconsistent and vary in how much split is between them.
Now that I am really looking at this and seeing these charts, that has got to be either an electrical issue or an issue with the setup of the LC2. It is way too consistent to be anything else.
Almost acting like it is pulling from a simulated narrow band output.
Last edited by dabomb6608; Today at 10:58 AM.
#14
Re: odd WB behaviour- datalog enclosed
The NB oscillation is pretty similar if you zoom in far enough: https://datazap.me/u/tequilaboy/wb-d...zoom=2244-2435
#16
Re: odd WB behaviour- datalog enclosed
I think for my setup with the gauge I use (cheap prosport Evo gauge from old WB kit) I programmed Output 1 to be 0V=10.0AFR and 5V=20.0AFR. Probably left output 2 alone as I don't utilize it. I made sure to match settings in EBL.
#17
Re: odd WB behaviour- datalog enclosed
A consistent almost perfect 1 point move though?
Here's a similar chart from one of my datalogs at idle.
There is certainly up and down variances. But they are inconsistent and vary in how much split is between them.
Now that I am really looking at this and seeing these charts, that has got to be either an electrical issue or an issue with the setup of the LC2. It is way too consistent to be anything else.
Almost acting like it is pulling from a simulated narrow band output.
Here's a similar chart from one of my datalogs at idle.
There is certainly up and down variances. But they are inconsistent and vary in how much split is between them.
Now that I am really looking at this and seeing these charts, that has got to be either an electrical issue or an issue with the setup of the LC2. It is way too consistent to be anything else.
Almost acting like it is pulling from a simulated narrow band output.
"What happens at higher RPM's when the cam moves into more of it's efficient range of operation."
#19
Re: odd WB behaviour- datalog enclosed
The general trending seems that there appears to be a nominal AFR that's being held, but like it's intermittently going richer by 1/2 point across the board, even at the higher RPMs...
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