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I took my '84 Z28 in for an alignment today. I changed the steering linkage from one end to the other and I measured the old inner/outer tie rods and assembled the new ones as close as I could get them to the way the old ones were setup.
The alignment guys said they had the passenger tie rods all the way closed and butting into each other and still was out of toe specs on that tire. The driver side was fine. Thoughts?
First, don't know much bout the alignment methods, but the driver's side the inner/outer tie rods are spread out pretty far. Why are the driver's so opened up and the passenger's so closed? Is that normal?
I took my '84 Z28 in for an alignment today. I changed the steering linkage from one end to the other and I measured the old inner/outer tie rods and assembled the new ones as close as I could get them to the way the old ones were setup.
The alignment guys said they had the passenger tie rods all the way closed and butting into each other and still was out of toe specs on that tire. The driver side was fine. Thoughts?
First, don't know much bout the alignment methods, but the driver's side the inner/outer tie rods are spread out pretty far. Why are the driver's so opened up and the passenger's so closed? Is that normal?
Looks like you leveled the center link with the k-member properly based on what you said in another thread. Was there a problem before you changed out the parts?
What all did you change and what's not been changed? I am and have been fighting with a similar problem for a few years now. I was able to achieve zero toe and have enough for 0.20 total easy, but there is a major unbalance between the two sides. There is nothing original to the vehicle at this point so I just chalked it up to stackup of tolerance, but it's interesting seeing someone else experiencing a similar issue.
Here are the photos with some measurements and questions answered.
1. There were no problems other than old loose parts and a lot of rattling up front. I change all the steering linkages, (except the Pitman Arm), changed the struts, springs, ball joints, and control arm bushings.
2. The pitman arm never came off and didn't touch the steering shaft.
3. Leveled the centerlink to within 1 mm. as per the GM FSM procedure.
MEASUREMENTS:
OLD:
Driver's side inner/outer tie rods: 17-1/4"
Centerlink: 15-1/4"
Passenger's side inner/outer tie rods: 17-3/8"
NEW:
Driver's side inner/outer tie rods: 17-1/8"
Centerlink: 15-5/8" (Wonder why it is longer?)
Passenger's side inner/outer tie rods: 16-3/4"
Last edited by mickey_bigdaddy; 06-11-2024 at 09:29 PM.
Sounds like the center link may be creating the issue by pushing the pitman arm towards the driver's side, and to center the steering wheel, the adjustment is compenating
Sounds like the center link may be creating the issue by pushing the pitman arm towards the driver's side, and to center the steering wheel, the adjustment is compenating
Here are the two photos of the old & new centerlinks (New Part # MOOG DS1049).
Correct, it's pushing the pitman arm out to the left, which means you have to compensate with the opposite tie rod to level the steering wheel.
Ok, that makes sense. because the tech was trying to get the steering wheel straight and he couldn't get it all the way straight nor the toe correct even with the passenger side tie rods screwed all the way touching each other.
I'm going to replace it with a new "Delphi" part. When I get the MOOG part off the car, I'll compare it to the original that came off the car and let you guys know what I find out. From my rough measurements, it looks a little longer than the original. I'm hoping the Delphi part is the same size as the original.
I'm going to replace it with a new "Delphi" part. When I get the MOOG part off the car, I'll compare it to the original that came off the car and let you guys know what I find out. From my rough measurements, it looks a little longer than the original. I'm hoping the Delphi part is the same size as the original.
I used mevotech supreme for mine, bought the whole kit. I didn’t measure anything, but I do have a thread comparing it to what came off my car here. I have a bit of an issue with wander, but I think that’s because I have 245/60r15 (stock wheels) on all 4 corners.
RockAuto says the mevotech centerlink is 24.5 inches long in total. Not sure if that’ll help here. That other thread about incorrect idler arms came to the conclusion that a lot of the parts have different sizes and shapes but ultimately have the same geometry.
I used mevotech supreme for mine, bought the whole kit. I didn’t measure anything, but I do have a thread comparing it to what came off my car here. I have a bit of an issue with wander, but I think that’s because I have 245/60r15 (stock wheels) on all 4 corners.
RockAuto says the mevotech centerlink is 24.5 inches long in total. Not sure if that’ll help here. That other thread about incorrect idler arms came to the conclusion that a lot of the parts have different sizes and shapes but ultimately have the same geometry.
Yeah, I don't want to get into what was going on in that other thread. There was a lot of misinformation there about idler arms and how to adjust centerlinks. I want to stay on topic here.
The steering system has a certain geometry that absolutely MUST BE maintained. It's really fairly simple though, and most of it can be at least approximated by the naked eye, without any tools at all.
First, the pivot point of the joints joining Pitman arm, idler arm, frame, and center link, must form a parallelogram. They should be in a perfect rectangle - PA and IA both pointing exactly along the axis of the car (to the front, in the case of our cars), and the line between them (the crossmember in our cars) and the center link should be exactly perpendicular to them - when the steering is centered. As the steering articulates, the CL should remain parallel to the crossmember, and the PA & IA should remain parallel to each other. Obviously, the crossmember side of that parallelogram should never change. The other 3 sides move together while that side stays in place. To achieve this, the length of the CL between those 2 joints must be identical to the distance between the Pitman shaft inside the steering gear and the idler shaft (which is dependent on the crossmember and is not adjustable other than possibly by shimming under the idler shaft), and the lengths of the PA and IA from shaft axis to joint must be identical. All of these distances are manufactured into the parts themselves.
Next, all of those parts should always remain in a plane. The line between the fixed sides of the PA (the axis of its shaft within the steering gear, which is bolted solidly in place and is not adjustable) and the IA are parallel to the ground unless the crossmember is bent. The IA can be adjusted by sliding it up and down along its "hinge" axis until the line between its CL joint and the PA's CL joint, are also parallel to the ground. Then, the pivoting axis of the IA must also be adjusted to be parallel to that of the PA (i.e. the steering gear). Imagine this as being like a 4-legged stool sitting on a flat floor, that can fold up flat in the vertical direction: all 4 legs must contact the floor at all times no matter whether the legs strike the floor in a rectangle, or whether they're swung to one side or the other to make a parallelogram. Misadjustment of the IA's attachment to the vehicle disrupts this, therefore is a critical part of "alignment" although it's rarely mentioned and there's no "alignment spec" for it, other than, "right". Instructions for replacing the idler usually say to mark the frame where the old one was and install the new one in the same place, but if that arrangement has ever been disturbed, great care is required to restore it.
Next, the center points of the joints for the tie rod ends, must be exactly along line that the control arms pivot around. The CAs are bolted to the car with 2 bolts, and are not adjustable, except by bending the frame. Obviously the 2 bolts for each must be lined up along the same line, otherwise the CA would bind as it articulates; think of a door hinge, and what would happen if the hinges don't align. Same deal. The reason the tie rods must have that relationship is, they also articulate as the CA does, and if the center they swing around doesn't match the CA, then the wheel will steer as the CA moves. This is called "bump steer", and some degree of it is sometimes built into the design of the parts in some cars, by way of the location of the pivot of the outer TR ends, which is controlled by the design of the spindle and therefore not adjustable. I don't think our cars have much, if any, bump steer designed into them butt I could easily be wrong about that. But regardless, the inner TR end must be located in line with the CA bolts. Again, the Pitman end of the CL, i.e. the steering gear location, is not adjustable (or is only so over a very small range), but the idler must be positioned on the frame so that its end is properly aligned. Clearly, the distances along the CA among all the joints, must maintain these relationships, and is built into the CL.
Last, the TRs must be adjusted so that when the Pitman and idler are pointed exactly straight ahead, the wheels are also pointed exactly straight ahead, plus/minus their "toe" setting. Of course, the steering wheel must point straight ahead at this point, as well.
Note that all of these parameters are manufactured into the parts, with the exception of the idler arm's location on the frame. If the parts fail to support any of these constraints, then they are WRONG. Personally I've never seen one that is, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any somewhere. If the whole steering linkage is properly installed and aligned, all of these relationships can be verified by eye or with a measuring tape. The car must be sitting in its normal ride position on a level surface of course, and it's preferable that there be little or no force on the parts (wheels sitting on turntables like the alignment store uses, for example). Note also, that ALL of this is totally independent of the "wheel alignment" process; that is, except for toe adjustment, all of it is completely unrelated to caster, camber, SAI, etc.
well, the OEM, moog, and delphi centerlinks are all the same length. I took the moog off and measured it when I got the new delphi in, so the delphi is getting returned. so that's not the issue.
I took my '84 Z28 in for an alignment today. I changed the steering linkage from one end to the other and I measured the old inner/outer tie rods and assembled the new ones as close as I could get them to the way the old ones were setup.
The alignment guys said they had the passenger tie rods all the way closed and butting into each other and still was out of toe specs on that tire. The driver side was fine. Thoughts?
First, don't know much bout the alignment methods, but the driver's side the inner/outer tie rods are spread out pretty far. Why are the driver's so opened up and the passenger's so closed? Is that normal?
You have to cut about 1/2in off one of the tie rods threads.
They are too long as is
i assume MOOG and AcDelco does this so they fit a bigger range of cars.
You have to cut about 1/2in off one of the tie rods threads.
They are too long as is
i assume MOOG and AcDelco does this so they fit a bigger range of cars.
Which one and cut just 1/2" off of just one of them? How does that affect the threads? What did you use to cut it?
I recently went through this. The Moog parts (tie rod ends) are the wrong length. Why? No idea unless they are actually made for a different application. I cut mine down which was a pain in the ****. And I too was worried about not enough adjustment so it took a few stabs at it.
Not sure if it’s the best option to mix and match parts brands, but my mevotech supreme tie rods were the correct length, no cutting required. (They should sponsor me with how much time I spend shilling for them )
Not sure if “mix and match” was directed towards me but all my stuff was Moog and the tie rod ends were incorrect (right sizes but too long). I have seen on here others have had the same issue.
I bought nuts threaded them on and then used a hacksaw so that the nut cleaned up the threads as one takes it off. Note- one tie rod has lh threads and the other one has rh threads.
Not sure if “mix and match” was directed towards me but all my stuff was Moog and the tie rod ends were incorrect (right sizes but too long). I have seen on here others have had the same issue.
Sorry I meant towards the OP mixing and matching aftermarket parts if he hypothetically decided to use mevotech tierods with the parts currently on the car. My bad, I should’ve clarified.
06-10-2024, 02:24 PM
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