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Ignition timing before vs after intercooler & meth.
Im looking for a bit of wisdom on timing with and without a intercooler Last years setup was - heads+cam+V3 Si supercharger without a intercooler. The cylinder head manufacturer reccomends 34* timing at 4000RPM. I pulled 8* total from the timing at 8PSI to play it safe and thats where i ran it for the last two-three years without issue. Ive seen on the procharger website "intercooling doesnt require timing retard" This year ill be running a pound or two more boost, a "1000 hp" vertical mount treadstone intercooler and a progressive meth kit. Should i run "full" timing or still retard it a bit on the top end of things. Is there another way to determine when to stop adding timing other than going off a quarter mile ET or when dyno numbers stop climbing?
Re: Ignition timing before vs after intercooler & meth.
Kinda hard to put a definitive yes or no on it
Intercooling usually allows more boost and sometimes more timing
But more timing isnt always more power
Intercooling alone you likely can do 2-3 deg more tho at 8 psi. At 10-11 psi, keep it 8 deg down from max. So you were 34 and pulling 8 for 8 psi, i would maybe try pull 6 at 8 psi, and 8 by the 10 psi. See what it does and preferably get it dyno’d to see what each deg does from there. Find where it stops making big gains in power and back off 1
Now the meth changes things slightly. It cools and adds octane. Probably can run 1-3 deg more depending how much you spray.
A built sbc for boost and actually alot of similar setups can tolerate max timing for a few psi before you need to start pulling timing. Compression and fuel makes a difference tho, lower comp helps widen the tune window. But you might end up with only 4-5 deg pulled by 8-10 psi. Hard to say for sure without sneaking up on it.
Re: Ignition timing before vs after intercooler & meth.
I guess im gonna have to get it on a dyno then. Its 9.05:1 CR and i always run 93 octane shell/sunoco. Bottom end is 100% stock and the rings are not gapped. I guess ill pull 6* at 8PSI and leave it at that untill i can get some dyno time. Also for the meth im gonna be running the smaller 175ml nozzle with target brand washer fluid (30-32% methanol)
Re: Ignition timing before vs after intercooler & meth.
They are Hypereutectic pistons and 4130 forged rods, but its still a ungapped stock bottom end with over 50K on it (I dont know true mileage) I wonder if people with stock TPI kits run full timing or still retard it?
Re: Ignition timing before vs after intercooler & meth.
Originally Posted by 86CamaroDan
Im looking for a bit of wisdom on timing with and without a intercooler Last years setup was - heads+cam+V3 Si supercharger without a intercooler. The cylinder head manufacturer reccomends 34* timing at 4000RPM. I pulled 8* total from the timing at 8PSI to play it safe and thats where i ran it for the last two-three years without issue. Ive seen on the procharger website "intercooling doesnt require timing retard" This year ill be running a pound or two more boost, a "1000 hp" vertical mount treadstone intercooler and a progressive meth kit. Should i run "full" timing or still retard it a bit on the top end of things. Is there another way to determine when to stop adding timing other than going off a quarter mile ET or when dyno numbers stop climbing?
What is your air temps entering the throttle body?
My one and only engine failure (that I built) was due to meth, or lack thereof. Back in 2002, a supercharged 355 that I had run more timing on because of meth. Something failed in the meth system and it didn't spray on a pass and it ripped the ring lands off two pistons.
Re: Ignition timing before vs after intercooler & meth.
I am yet to datalog anything after the intercooler currently (waiting on a valid plate) Im gonna run a smaller 175ml jet and use it as a safe gaurd rather than rely on it
Re: Ignition timing before vs after intercooler & meth.
Originally Posted by 86CamaroDan
I am yet to datalog anything after the intercooler currently (waiting on a valid plate) Im gonna run a smaller 175ml jet and use it as a safe gaurd rather than rely on it
My IAT is in my discharge tube right before the throttle body.
I guess try it and log some data, see how low you can get the temps.
When I ran an S-trim at max impeller speed on a 9:1 iron head motor, the most advance I could run without detonating was around 22-24 degrees, mind you this was WITHOUT an intercooler.
Vortech's rule of thumb was 1deg per psi. The heart-shaped Sportsman-II's recommended 34-36 degrees, and the combo was around 14psi so that was in the ball park.
I've been pondering if I could run a lot more advance on my current build since I have the intercooler, but the IAT temps are still kinda high.
Re: Ignition timing before vs after intercooler & meth.
I dont think ill be over 10 lbs with the new setup, but from what i hear the guys who run the TRV25 intercooler on much, much higher boost see roughly 30-40 degrees of drop. I guess theres only one way to find out though.
Re: Ignition timing before vs after intercooler & meth.
Originally Posted by 86CamaroDan
I dont think ill be over 10 lbs with the new setup, but from what i hear the guys who run the TRV25 intercooler on much, much higher boost see roughly 30-40 degrees of drop. I guess theres only one way to find out though.
A lot of variables exist.
Looking at some data logs from 2003, it looks like my old S-trim averaged around 150 degrees cruising, and peaked around 182 degrees under boost. What's interesting is, this is a tuned port intake with a MAT sensor.
Looking at some logs from the next year, I was running a singleplane intake with an IAT sensor, showing around 90 degrees cruise and 130 degrees under boost.
I guess that shows how much an intake can heat soak.
Fast forward to 2007, my Corvette with a powerdyne supercharger saw around 150 degrees under boost with an IAT sensor.
Re: Ignition timing before vs after intercooler & meth.
Originally Posted by anesthes
A lot of variables exist.
Looking at some data logs from 2003, it looks like my old S-trim averaged around 150 degrees cruising, and peaked around 182 degrees under boost. What's interesting is, this is a tuned port intake with a MAT sensor.
Looking at some logs from the next year, I was running a singleplane intake with an IAT sensor, showing around 90 degrees cruise and 130 degrees under boost.
I guess that shows how much an intake can heat soak.
-- Joe
I honestly dont trust the sensor when it was mounted in the intake. when i first went MS it went to about to about 180 at idle and 200+ cruising and it never came down untill the car sat for a few hours. That was when the car was NA. Same thing when the IAT sensor was mounted behind the radiator/above the alt on the non intercooled setup
Hoping its new location on the passengers side charge pipe is less prone to heat soak.
Re: Ignition timing before vs after intercooler & meth.
Originally Posted by 86CamaroDan
I honestly dont trust the sensor when it was mounted in the intake. when i first went MS it went to about to about 180 at idle and 200+ cruising and it never came down untill the car sat for a few hours. That was when the car was NA. Same thing when the IAT sensor was mounted behind the radiator/above the alt on the non intercooled setup
Hoping its new location on the passengers side charge pipe is less prone to heat soak.
That's kind of a small intercooler, but I suppose it's a matter of how good the core is?
This is back in 2012 mocking mine up before I mediablasted the car. I have dual spal fans sucking through it and the radiator.
I toyed with the idea of adding a pusher fan on the other side, but I think at road speed it's probably fine.
I still have a air/water intercooler setup too in the shop, but I might keep that for a boat.
Re: Ignition timing before vs after intercooler & meth.
Its definitely small but its one of the more efficient ones(I didnt wanna block all of the air flow to the radiator). After picking treadstone technical supports brain for a bit, they told me the vertical flow intercoolers are nearly twice the efficiency of the horizontal flow intercoolers because theres more cores for them to flow through vs more tube length which also provides a larger restriction. The fitment was borderline perfect too. I put the cooling fans on and it pulls a decent amount of air through the core. i was thinking it was gonna be a large restriction in the flow but i guess not.
Its rated to "1000hp efficient" https://www.treadstoneperformance.co...cooler++1000HP
Last edited by 86CamaroDan; 04-02-2018 at 10:36 AM.
Re: Ignition timing before vs after intercooler & meth.
Originally Posted by 86CamaroDan
Its definitely small but its one of the more efficient ones(I didnt wanna block all of the air flow to the radiator). After picking treadstone technical supports brain for a bit, they told me the vertical flow intercoolers are nearly twice the efficiency of the horizontal flow intercoolers because theres more cores for them to flow through vs more tube length which also provides a larger restriction. The fitment was borderline perfect too. I put the cooling fans on and it pulls a decent amount of air through the core. i was thinking it was gonna be a large restriction in the flow but i guess not.
Its rated to "1000hp efficient" https://www.treadstoneperformance.co...cooler++1000HP
That would be tough on a bird due to the head lamps.
I have that one currently installed in the charge pipe, and i have a similar version (100% plastic) that i was using in the air filter on the non intercooled setup. But to answer your question, yes thats the one i plan on using.
Originally Posted by anesthes
That would be tough on a bird due to the head lamps.
Looks good!
-- Joe
Thanks. I plan on cutting back the grill for even more flow when i eventually paint it. I'm pretty sure the guy who painted it 9 years ago was lazy and didnt remove/paint under it so it stays for now.
Re: Ignition timing before vs after intercooler & meth.
Originally Posted by 86CamaroDan
I have that one currently installed in the charge pipe, and i have a similar version (100% plastic) that i was using in the air filter on the non intercooled setup. But to answer your question, yes thats the one i plan on using.
Thanks. I plan on cutting back the grill for even more flow when i eventually paint it. I'm pretty sure the guy who painted it 9 years ago was lazy and didnt remove/paint under it so it stays for now.
Hopefully this year we can meet up at the track a few times. I have a 20 foot enclosed race car trailer which I'm outfitting with tools and such, so hopefully I can get back into it this year.
I'm also in the process of merging with a 100 million dollar company, so I've been so darn busy it's crazy. Hopefully have this merger done in a month or so.
Re: Ignition timing before vs after intercooler & meth.
Originally Posted by anesthes
Hopefully this year we can meet up at the track a few times. I have a 20 foot enclosed race car trailer which I'm outfitting with tools and such, so hopefully I can get back into it this year.
I'm also in the process of merging with a 100 million dollar company, so I've been so darn busy it's crazy. Hopefully have this merger done in a month or so.
-- Joe
Hopefully! Ive been trying to get up there. When i go up ill msg you
03-21-2018, 07:51 AM
