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I apologize if this is in the wrong forum. I have an 89 RS vert and every once in a while (about every 2 weeks) the car refuses to start. won't even try. I was told by the P.O. that I have to remove the battery for 45 minutes and that it should start functioning. Sure enough it does. However, lately it's been getting worse (now it only lasts a day or so).
My question is: Does this sound right, that the security 'key' is somehow messing up, and if so, can I replace it with a 'standard' ignition? (see pic below).
It won't pop right in and fire up, you'd still have to bypass VATS somehow, usually with a soldered in resistor if you wanted to go that way. I'm sure guys who have VATS experience will chime in....
It won't pop right in and fire up, you'd still have to bypass VATS somehow, usually with a soldered in resistor if you wanted to go that way. I'm sure guys who have VATS experience will chime in....
I really don't want to go that way. Is there someone who could possibly provide me a link to a vendor who sells the correct keys/key locks?
The pellet in the key has to be the same as the one you have now, and typically the lock and key are not the actual issue (if they were, disconnecting the battery wouldn't do anything at all), but rather its the wiring, and possibly the VATS module, etc..... best thing to do is just order yourself a custom chip that's got VATS disabled. I think most tuners are charging about $75 for a chip. You can also do other things like lower the fan set point for a lower temp thermostat, and make changes for whatever other modifications the car may have.
Also your issue may not even be VATS related. You would need to do more troubleshooting to determine this.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 01-01-2018 at 01:15 PM.
The pellet in the key has to be the same as the one you have now, and typically the lock and key are not the actual issue (if they were, disconnecting the battery wouldn't do anything at all), but rather its the wiring, and possibly the VATS module, etc..... best thing to do is just order yourself a custom chip that's got VATS disabled. I think most tuners are charging about $75 for a chip. You can also do other things like lower the fan set point for a lower temp thermostat, and make changes for whatever other modifications the car may have.
Also your issue may not even be VATS related. You would need to do more troubleshooting to determine this.
GD
Hm...ok. what other troubleshooting do you suggest (Remember I'm a newbie, so be gentle)
Find a copy of the service manual for your car (1989 Camaro). In the manual, there will be a section that explains approximately how VATS functions, what to look for when it's functioning correctly, and what to look for to indicate it's malfunctioning. Then there will also be a series of charts and diagnostic steps to eliminate possibilities and narrow the failure to the root cause. Barring that, you're pretty much searching in the dark without a flashlight.
Often VATS issues can be resolved by having a locksmith cut a new GM key blank. The contacts on the keys Do wear out over time. Just like the rest of the key wears thin over time, the contacts will wear down until they don't make a good connection with the contacts inside the lock cylinder, and then you'll have intermittent VATS problems.
Just as the key itself can wear out, the contacts in the lock cylinder can wear out. The tiny wires that lead from the lock cylinder to the car can also break down over time and fail. Replacing the lock cylinder, replaces the wires. A new lock cylinder requires a new VATS key blank with a value that matches the original key, to be cut to match the lock cylinder. So if you were to replace the lock cylinder, and have a new key made, there's not much else to the VATS system that often goes bad. The catch is if the VATS system isn't the problem you'd just be spinning your wheels.
Find the manual and follow it. Recommend checking your local library, begging or bribing the service dept or parts counter at your GM dealer, Ebay, Rock Auto, etc.
You can easily test the passkey system. You can back probe pin b6 of the ecm. You will see 2.5-5v if it’s functional. If it’s not working there will not be voltage there. The ecm service number for your car if it’s tbi will be 1228746.
thank you all for the helpful information!! I'm wondering if I should go the key lock replacement route, as I can literally pull out the key when the car is running (something I should not be able to do).
thank you all for the helpful information!! I'm wondering if I should go the key lock replacement route, as I can literally pull out the key when the car is running (something I should not be able to do).
This just means the key is worn. Mine did that till I had a proper new key made.
This just means the key is worn. Mine did that till I had a proper new key made.
GD
Hmm..ok. do you know if any locksmith can do it or is it a GM dealer thing? BTW, I found an (odd) workaround. I postulated that the key would 'reset' if the car was running because the circuit was closed (as opposed to letting the car sit for forever with the battery unplugged and the cpu 'drained')..I pull the key out of the ignition while the car is still running, then turn off the car. It's worked 10 out of 10 times so far..
A locksmith might be able to make you a new key, provided he has all the different resistor values. I believe there are 12 different values so it may be something that they have to order in. Better luck,while more expensive may be the dealership. I'm not sure if one of those computer controlled key kiosks will be of any use either, even though they show specific keys.....
A locksmith might be able to make you a new key, provided he has all the different resistor values. I believe there are 12 different values so it may be something that they have to order in. Better luck,while more expensive may be the dealership. I'm not sure if one of those computer controlled key kiosks will be of any use either, even though they show specific keys.....
I just bought a lock and had a key made to it. I'll go buy a steering wheel puller and replace the whole tumbler...
I had a similar problem. I was able to get a new vats key from a locksmith and install a new tumbler. It was 75 dollars Canadian for two of them but it works well and solved the problem.
I had a similar problem. I was able to get a new vats key from a locksmith and install a new tumbler. It was 75 dollars Canadian for two of them but it works well and solved the problem.
cool. good to know I am on the right track, as mine cost $140 lol
If you don't want the VATS (I think it's a great system and I would keep it) or you want to make sure it is the VATS you should just be able to jumper (at the VATS box) the Dark Blue wire to the yellow/black wire. The Yellow/black wire should be the negative portion of the trigger for the starter relay and the Dark Blue wire from the ECM puts out a negative signal. Bear in mind that accessing the VATS box requires you to remove the dash pad, unbolt the dash itself and remove a duct. So it really is about the same amount of work to leave it in place and do the other work to fix it. For reference I'm looking at this schematic: http://www.austinthirdgen.org/mkport...m_pass-key.jpg
If you don't want the VATS (I think it's a great system and I would keep it) or you want to make sure it is the VATS you should just be able to jumper (at the VATS box) the Dark Blue wire to the yellow/black wire. The Yellow/black wire should be the negative portion of the trigger for the starter relay and the Dark Blue wire from the ECM puts out a negative signal. Bear in mind that accessing the VATS box requires you to remove the dash pad, unbolt the dash itself and remove a duct. So it really is about the same amount of work to leave it in place and do the other work to fix it. For reference I'm looking at this schematic: http://www.austinthirdgen.org/mkport...m_pass-key.jpg
Ya, I'm not looking to replace/override the system (AT THIS TIME)..
jumper (at the VATS box) the Dark Blue wire to the yellow/black wire.
What? Think you need to look at that diagram again. The ECM doesn't generate a ground signal to the VATS module. The VATS module generates a signal for the ECM.
Besides that, bypassing the start enable relay is only half of VATS. That'll let the engine crank, but not run. To run the ECM needs to receive a signal from the VATS module.
To bypass the ECM half of the VATS system, you need to either have the PROM reprogrammed to disable VATS, or setup something to generate the signal the ECM needs from the VATS module. The most common way to do that, is to wire a resistor with the proper key value, directly to the VATS module so it thinks there's a correct key in the ignition. The other way is to wire in a signal generator, which are available aftermarket.
By far, the easiest way to fix a VATS problem, is to just fix the VATS.
As far as keys go, I personally feel it's a lot further ahead to find a good locksmith than to go to the dealer. Realistically, GM and the dealers moved away from VATS decades ago.
VATS is easy, the lock cylinder can't be recoded. Once the module has been mated with a key, the value of that key is forever married to the VATS module. Use a DVOM to read the resistance value of the old key, and reference the list of possible VATS key values, and the possible key value closest to the old key, is the value of the key blank you need to obtain. Then you can go on Ebay, or a locksmith, or to the dealership, and order the key blank with the correct value. At that point you can buy a new lock cylinder, with a generic key blank cut to match the lock. Then anyone competent in cutting keys, can cut the generic blank from the lock cylinder into the matched key value blank from the dealer, or Ebay, wherever.... At that point you have a new GM key with the correct value for the VATS module, and the correct cut for the new lock cylinder.
What? Think you need to look at that diagram again. The ECM doesn't generate a ground signal to the VATS module. The VATS module generates a signal for the ECM.
Besides that, bypassing the start enable relay is only half of VATS. That'll let the engine crank, but not run. To run the ECM needs to receive a signal from the VATS module.
To bypass the ECM half of the VATS system, you need to either have the PROM reprogrammed to disable VATS, or setup something to generate the signal the ECM needs from the VATS module. The most common way to do that, is to wire a resistor with the proper key value, directly to the VATS module so it thinks there's a correct key in the ignition. The other way is to wire in a signal generator, which are available aftermarket.
By far, the easiest way to fix a VATS problem, is to just fix the VATS.
As far as keys go, I personally feel it's a lot further ahead to find a good locksmith than to go to the dealer. Realistically, GM and the dealers moved away from VATS decades ago.
VATS is easy, the lock cylinder can't be recoded. Once the module has been mated with a key, the value of that key is forever married to the VATS module. Use a DVOM to read the resistance value of the old key, and reference the list of possible VATS key values, and the possible key value closest to the old key, is the value of the key blank you need to obtain. Then you can go on Ebay, or a locksmith, or to the dealership, and order the key blank with the correct value. At that point you can buy a new lock cylinder, with a generic key blank cut to match the lock. Then anyone competent in cutting keys, can cut the generic blank from the lock cylinder into the matched key value blank from the dealer, or Ebay, wherever.... At that point you have a new GM key with the correct value for the VATS module, and the correct cut for the new lock cylinder.
Wait, are you saying that the Key and the lock cylinder I purchased from a GM dealer won't work on my GM device??? The gentleman read my key as a code '3'....I'm just confused now...
When you buy a VATS lock cylinder, it comes with a generic key blank with the teeth cut to match the lock, but no VATS resistor. You then take the non VATS key blank that came with the lock, and a new uncut VATS key blank with the right resistor value, and you copy the teeth from the lock cylinder key to the VATS key blank.
The nice wore out key on the key ring is my original key. The basic brass key is what comes with a new VATS lock cylinder. So then I'd get a VATS key blank with a resistor pellet that matches my OLD key, and have it cut to match the key that came with the lock cylinder.
Looks like your down to trying resistors at the bottom of the column. White wires with a orange sheath. Or have your computers memcal reprogrammed to illinate vats. https://m.ebay.com/itm/GM-VATS-Bypas...sAAOSwJLJZf7OT
Something about that Ebay description doesn't really add up. Just dug through a bunch of info on 4th gen VATS and the BCM a few months ago. Everything I read suggested the 4th gen VATS signal is different than the thirdgen signal. IDK, maybe the Ebay module produces two or more different tones, but from what I was reading a 4th gen BCM won't send the signal a thirdgen ECM would be looking for.
I can do a prom to illimaite vats for 89-92 only for $65 shipped.
If you remove the prom the car will start but run poorly.
Send me a pm if you need a prom . Just need to know if it’s a 305 or 350 swap auto or manual transmission.
Something about that Ebay description doesn't really add up. Just dug through a bunch of info on 4th gen VATS and the BCM a few months ago. Everything I read suggested the 4th gen VATS signal is different than the thirdgen signal. IDK, maybe the Ebay module produces two or more different tones, but from what I was reading a 4th gen BCM won't send the signal a thirdgen ECM would be looking for.
I can do a prom to illimaite vats for 89-92 only for $65 shipped.
If you remove the prom the car will start but run poorly.
Send me a pm if you need a prom . Just need to know if it’s a 305 or 350 swap auto or manual transmission.
You can use your same key but will need to bypass the starter enable relay. Bye grounding the passkey wire or connecting the two large gauge wires together. Usually green and yellow. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/elec...cm-delete.html
You can use your same key but will need to bypass the starter enable relay. Bye grounding the passkey wire or connecting the two large gauge wires together. Usually green and yellow. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/elec...cm-delete.html
oh kool well when i hear from the mechanic ill let you know i appreciate it how long does it normally take for the prom i wish i knew this before i went to the mechanic
i received your message but is says do not reply or itll get sent to thirdgen .org but my car is a 91 firebird tbi 305 automatic and yes i do have pay pal if you want i can send you my number
My email is brianlvs@yahoo.com , maybe that’s a better way to communicate.
I can ship out Saturday and get you a tracking tomorrow. The chip is in a black carrier. The carrier has a notch in it. This indicates the direction it gets inserted into the ecm.
12-31-2017, 05:13 PM
