Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Not that i know of. I gotta put one on and most i see are universal kits

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Maybe for rack's ?

I've considered welding a new bottom hoop, maybe out of some box steel, then cutting out the old one. You'd have to connect it to the control arm mounts I guess and tie it in to the motor mounts.

I dunno. It's soo dumb. But Spohn doesn't care.


Mine have a bar in the back tying both sides together, and a fabricated box tray tying the whole triangle together.

The problem is, it's off by probably 1/4" or so on the front part of the triangle so it pushes the ball joint back by several degrees.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

That's why I went BMR...

- Rob

https://www.bmrsuspension.com/?page=...7&superpro=0//

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I wonder if these strut mounts are causing part of the issue. Maybe I should run the spacers under the mounts ?

Of course, I'll get tons of road crap in the engine bay...

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

all the strut mounts i remember seeing are raised about 2" similar to the stock ones. im assuming thats what they intended the spacers to be used for.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

So I'm just retarded.

I put the spacers under the mount, re-did the camber/caster and put the car up in the air and the linkage doesn't really hit. I get a slight rub on the passenger side, but it's way better.

The problem I'm having, and I'm Curious if ZZ3Astro is having it as well, is I can't get full steering lock because the tire crashes into the plastic inner fender.

I checked this last night, I get 1 full turn in each direction out of a WS6 box. The tire is HARD against the inner fender while the arm on the spindle has more than 1/2" left before it hits the steering stop.

AFAIK this box should be somewhere between 2.25-2.3 turns lock to lock, so I'm losing a significant amount of turn radius.

Compounded with the fact that the linkage is close to the k-member, I suspect it is because the ball joint center is too far back on he A-arm. I could help it a little by putting a TON of negative caster, but then the car will handle like a turd.

I'm kinda pissed, not because of the cost of the a-arms, but because of how long it takes to compress the springs, and replace them. In fact, the last time I compressed these brand new moog springs the tool stripped out and I almost lost a hand. I'd swap coil overs but I don't trust these strut mounts/caster plates or strut towers for that much abuse!

ZZ3Astro, I hope you can inspect this some time and report your results brother!


-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Never seen mounts like that

I dont recall losing range with my umi a arms but never measured to be honest. They dont crash into the fender tho. You sure you got the arms on the right sides?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Those are J&E mounts

Yeah, the steering stops and sway bar mounts would be on the wrong sides.

Spohn doesn't appear to own a tape measure.

I played with wheel spacers to try and make the problem better too, with mixed results. I put some rear Formula wheels on the front and it was 'better'. but still not right. When I first swapped to the spohn A-arms I had LS1 brakes, and even the little amount of the extra rotor pushing the wheel out made the tire crash into the fender WAAAAY early.

I was tempted to try some rear GTA rims on the front to see if maybe that helps more, but I have a 4th gen rear end and so thirdgen rims are not really an option.

I'm using factory brakes now (with aftermarket calipers) and spacers with 4th gen wheels. The problem is the A-arms for sure.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...now-tires.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/afte...ont-waste.html

I spent a lot of time messing with this and gave up for a while. Now the car is "done" and I kinda wanna be able to turn. Noticed ZZ3Astro had Spohn stuff too.

-- Joe

ZZ3Astro

Ok guys I am getting back to work on the Iroc after taking a break. I am out of options for mounting the coils and only have one place that really works. I actually like everything about the location except for plug wire length.


1. Mounting them on the valve covers is out of the question (upturned header melts everything on passenger side.) Also I didn't want to see plug wires and extra harness wires up top anyway.


2. Low mounting leaves me with zero feasible options. I could shoehorn them in the factory coil spring location, but there is nothing to easily mount to. It's a wet area. Lots of moving parts for wires to get caught in.


3. Turbo and cold side plumbing make the factory front battery locations impossible.


4. Inside the cabin won't work because it's not a race car. Keeping AC/heat/interior so no room for 8 coils.


So this leads me to the only place left: in front of the radiator above the intercooler and under the trim panel. The good news is the Holley harness plus the 24 inch extensions I bought reach perfectly. The bad news, if it were, is the plug wire length. The closest plugs are 4 feet of wire, the rear plugs add another 16-18 inches.


Opinions on voltage/current drop with 4' to 5.5' of wire each? I can't find much solid information online on this subject (as it applies to plug wires). My understanding is at 20-40kV, wire resistance is almost a non-factor, so length is not much of an issue when you're talking a few feet.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Pics of the current Engine bay?

I would almost rather you design a strut tower brace and mount to those. I was looking at that as an option for mine due to the turbo headers but decided to keep it simple and keep them mounted on the valve covers and just make New around the back and under wires. They are still as short as standard SBC wires as that’s the universal kit I used. I hid the wires and out the back routing with coil covers to complete the look.

I would not want a 4ft+ wire if possible. No room at or around the firewall? Back of the intake? I know u have room somewhere that isn’t so far away!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Why wouldn't you consider the firewall Steve, that is the most common place for coil relocation brackets. You don't have a headlight relay on the firewall like the birds have, and you're not running a distributor anymore, so you have plenty of room back there...

- Rob

ZZ3Astro

Older pic but shows the layout of the bay. I'll have to take a better angle today.


The firewall was a "hmm maybe" spot but it makes the ignition system even more visible than with a distributor. The ignition coils are now mounted on a tightly packaged inline 4x bracket. Eight in a row are nearly as wide as the intercooler with the hood latch between them. They won't fit across the firewall between the AC box and wiper motor in a row. They might fit stacked 4x2. Also it is very high up and there is a lot of heat, not to mention radiant on the passenger side with the header. Wire routing is a pain in that area as well because I have my heater hoses running across the back of the engine to the filter/cooler assembly along with various wiring harnesses. Not having to run wires down through there was one of the great things about no more distributor. That said, I will look at it again for consideration.

Strut tower brace mounting would not be possible anywhere near the passenger side. It could be done that way if mounted to the driver side, but I'd be back to the long wire issue because the wires have to come up from below. I will never again do a project with high mounted headers!! Big lesson learned.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

No, meaning sets of four against the firewall, one on top of the other.

Upper row can have the plug wire boots coming in on top, lower row from the bottom.

Could also mount them to the sides of the intake plenum itself, to be honest.

- Rob

ZZ3Astro

Wow those coils are packaged nice and close compared to mine. Those aren't D585's though. I'm not sure they can fit as closely together.


I just happen to have a new 25 foot roll of MSD plug wire so I'm going to do a little experiment. Based on a plug gap of .024", 8.5:1 compression and 20 psi (294.95 psi theoretical static compression) works out to roughly 20 atmosphere. The effective plug gap (excluding any resistance of fuel) is 0.48". I will compare a no wire, short wire and 25' long wire to measure the open air spark length. The difference in spark the maximum spark gap should give at least a rough estimate of the drop % based on distance.


I know the MSD wire is 50-70 ohms per foot. I can't find a wire voltage drop calculator that will accept that kind of number. I'm getting numbers for 5 feet of spark plug wire that shows anywhere from .02% to 10% drop.

ZZ3Astro

Interesting results from a very simple ignition setup tonight. I used a stock small cap HEI coil with a condenser and a relay. I momentarily triggered the relay which resulted in a fairly weak (for HEI) spark that would travel about 14 mm in open air. Through a 2 foot spark plug wire from the Iroc, open air was 11.5 mm. Then I ran it through the entire 25 foot roll of MSD wire - without using a boot and plug, just laying it on the terminal - and open air dropped to 9 mm. The spark delivered was similar in intensity and sound.


11.5 mm / 15 mm = 28% at 2 feet = 14% per foot
9.1 / 15 mm = 40% loss at 25 feet = 1.6% per foot (I will only be using 5 feet)


So a 8% drop vs mounting the coils 2 feet closer for a 4.8% drop from D585 high output coils. I don't see this as an issue. As for the difference 'per foot', the new wire is MSD Super Conductor and the old wire is a lower grade MSD wire. Either it's that, or just that fact that going through any length of wire is at least a 20%+ drop.


I'm going to find out how to fire the D585 coil manually and repeat this test for comparison's sake.

ZZ3Astro

Follow up results, this time using a properly firing D585 coil. Wow what and intense spark from those things!


Open air, no wire: 18 mm spark
Open air, 4 inch wire: need to test this with the new MSD wire
Open air, 2 foot wire: 14 mm spark: 22% loss = 11% per foot
Open air, 25 foot wire: 12 mm spark: 33% loss = 1.32% per foot


With the proposed average of 5 foot per wire, the projected loss is 6.6%. Even with a 3 foot wire it would be a 3.3% loss, so the maximum penalty over closer mounted coils is 3.3%. Of course coil near plug would be best with a loss of 1% or so, but we don't have that luxury. Another plus for going LS someday.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

Interesting data. The added 3.3% of you mounting then farther away is acceptable? Just the added cost of more wire and more places for it to possibly jump to.

ZZ3Astro

Ok final test was a 4 inch piece of the old and the new wire (I didn't want to waste a longer piece of the new obviously)
Open air, 4 inch New wire: 18 mm - may have been .25 mm less than coil only
Open air, 4 inch old wire: 17 mm ~5.5% loss


Without precision spark gap measuring rig it's hard to get perfect measurements so I won't say there wasn't a tiny 1% or so loss on the new wire but it wasn't much. There was clearly a slight loss on the old wire. In any case I've seen enough to feel good about the forward location. I'm going to work on routing the wires away from metal as much as possible.


I just finished the CNP harness and it has plenty of length to reach. There won't be any heat or water issues in that location either. To get the car running I still need to install the main harness to the engine, and do the tie-in harness that powers up the Holley and sends it the ignition on signal. Then on to the gauge install.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

That blooper reel at the end of the last video was hilarious Steve lol.

Have you finalized where you will be mounting the coils...?

- Rob

ZZ3Astro

Haha I like to throw those bloopers in from time to time. As for the coils, I decided after the spark distance tests that I was ok with the minor loss of the extra 24 inches of wire to mount them up front. Today I finally made the time to build some brackets and got both sets of coils mounted. Next up is making the new plug wires and routing them as cleanly as possible. If I can stay on topic I will have it running in the next two weeks. Unfortunately between planned trips, tax season, business chores and the ongoing remodel this may extend further out...


Video from the coil mounting session

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I'm loving it. I know the spark plug wire routing will be very key at this point, and I am curious to see how you plan on running them. I'm also looking forward to the Holley Tuning, as well as the upcoming late night blasts on the street...

- Rob

ZZ3Astro

I'm really wanting to hear this thing fire off soon myself. Even if I don't have it driving for a while, it would be very motivating to hear the Holley system making it vroom vroom!
Right now the plug wire routing is planned to be along the top or bottom edge of the engine mounts. From there the four wires will travel together to the front anti-sway bar mounts. Once the reach the mounts they will run almost straight up to the coils. The area of concern will be avoiding the movement radius of the pitman and idler arms, without the wires having to be too low. I have 50 feet of MSD plug wire. As long as I don't make one too short and have to throw it away, I have enough for a 6.25' average length which is longer than any run measured. Of course actually routing the wires is another story!

zz17iroc

iTrader: (4)

Looking good man, almost there!

ZZ3Astro

One half of the plug wires are done. I also made a pair of aluminum brackets to guide the wires away from the pittman and idler arms. I started with the hardest two cylinders, #5 and #7 and they weren't bad. All that is left now is the passenger side which is drama free with its upturned header.


I still need to make a power feed for the fans and coils, as well as install the main engine harness and tie the Dominator into power and the fuel pump.


Yes this is taking forever. I am doing it when I have real free time rather than forcing free time. With the disappointments of the past with this car, I have learned not to go out of my way with this thing. If it fails, at least I won't feel bad for having put off higher priority TTDs!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Steve, any updates...?

- Rob

ZZ3Astro

Yep.. the boxes have been cleaned out of the garage. My girlfriend can park her new Equinox in there. The kitchen backsplash is finally done. Working on the guest bathroom shower tile now. Oh you meant car update? Well now you know why there isn't an update on that!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Too funny...

I'm doing the exact opposite. I need to get up on my roof and start re-doing it, or just cave and pay someone to do it. Also need to paint a few rooms, do some tile work, quite a few things around the house myself. Trying to get the car done first though, because if I don't, and Spring gets here, it will just sit in the garage all Spring and Summer long...

- Rob

ZZ3Astro

I know, right? Spring is almost long gone here in Florida and Summer is already setting in.. 80's today! The Camaro cruise down here is only four weeks and I've got trips planned that will take away two weekends between now and then. I really want the car done but I need to get insurance on my house. I want everything finished so I don't have to explain anything to the insurance inspector. Every day I think I might have some time but I realize another household project awaits. Three hours ago I was working on the bathroom tile and I still am now.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Just watched your latest video. You're pretty damn handy Steve, didn't know you do all your own work with the house, very impressive. Do you need approval to remove those two trees from the township by any chance, because here in New Jersey they fight me tooth and nail with this one tree I have been looking to take down for a few years now. In the way would be an understatement...

- Rob

ZZ3Astro

Thanks Rob. I'm trying to do less of this stuff myself but I'm saving up for a pole barn to put the rest of my vehicles under. I'm in an unincorporated area so I'm good. There are certain types of trees here that are protected though, but luckily I don't have any of those.


Iroc update is still no update. I'm starting to lose motivation for the Iroc once again. I've been let down so many times and I have so much more to do once it is running that it's hard to be interested in wrenching on it. Buying an Alpha 12 GTR (already built) is starting to cross my mind daily. I only have my RV loan left to pay off and I'll be free and clear. Still gonna try to push myself to get to the Iroc but time is very tight at the moment. Getting lots of things done at least and soon I will have some free time I hope. (I HOPE!)

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I feel the same way Steve... believe me. Half painted car in the garage and I don't even want to look at it anymore, and even my wife looks at me like wtf are you doing, just get another car and leave the GTA be. Alpha GTR is an expensive package, but well worth it. I'm actually thinking about getting a Grand National, tired of sitting low, my back isn't what it used to be... but then I want high tech, and am looking at something brand new again. I guess we reach that point after all these years and realize it's time for something else lol. I mean, even if we get the damn cars to run the numbers, and idle like new, and this, and that, it's still a thirty year old car in the end. Wow now I'm depressed lol.

- Rob

ZZ3Astro

Hahaha... I guess we get older, more viable financially and we look at our clocks ticking down and decide there is a better way! Actually even the GTR is not ideal because it's rough and noisy. I've been looking at the AMG E63 S Sedan as well. In fact between having a real back seat (and four doors) and being a twin turbo V8 that sounds good and running very close to the GTR, I might be going German at some point!


Anyone who reads this thread is going to give up on their project car! LOL

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Sad but true, even in one of your other videos you touched on your knees being a problem, and mine are just starting to feel that way lately, getting up and down from the floor is just not the same for me anymore, and although a lift will clear my garage, she doesn't want me to invest in one, especially with e-town dragway closing, it's pointless now. It's cool when your nineteen and twenty, and are looking to build something to take on the more expensive cars out there, but it gets tiring as you get older. I always seemed to be chasing my older cousin who shoehorned in a 425 Olds into his Iroc back in the day, very fast car when I was a kid, ten seconds easy. He was always my unicorn. Pretty sure I caught him with a much smaller engine and boost, but unlike you I haven't dynoed it yet, and honestly that is the only thing keeping me going, to see the fruits of my labor on the dyno rather than calculating it through duty cycle and racing against others who claim horsepower through a window. Would be different if we had F-Body clubs who actually got involved in sanctioning races like yesteryear, but those days are long gone, even with the track open, hardly any F-Body's out there. Times change, and we gotta change with them, and although that sounds sad, the car below will make me forget all about it lol...

- Rob

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Edit: Just realized Steve, you may have kids coming soon, no...?

- Rob

ZZ3Astro

Noooo! I'd have to get the E63 wagon if so! It has been discussed though and the current conclusion is it is not for us. Definitely not on the short list of plans.


Very nice today.. 74 nice. Taking a break from the house work for once. I might roll up the shop doors and tinker. Any possible car acquisition might be a while (rising interest rates are the only thnk that would make it happen sooner than later) so I need to at least get the Iroc running. I might even like it (for once!)

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Just watched your latest video. I'm smiling because I had the speakers loud, and as your talking... in the background over here I hear "he sounds like you" lmao. That is exactly how I sound when I just don't want to even look at the GTA anymore lol. Don't forget though Steve, you don't have to spend that much money for a four door Import to be enjoyed. Don;t forget about the Pontiac G8's and the Chevy SS's, both incredible cars, and both are ready for Turbo and Procharger kits. GTR's are nice, I had one years back but gave it right back andtook a little bit of a loss when the insurance started to get be too much of a headache. But anyways, I'm thinking about the SS or a G8 myself, but turbo. This one has a Procharger...

ZZ3Astro

The plug wires are finished! Next I started working on removing the starter power cable which got burned up by the old crossover pipe routing. I'm not sure how it didn't short out and start a big fire. I also separated the factory fan relay and power harness from the megasquirt harness. Now I have to build a new sub-harness to get the alternator, fan wiring and new coil power relay tied into the new starter power wire where it meets the rear battery cable. Once that is in place, all that is left is installing the main Holley harness and tying the Dominator to power, ignition pwr, ground and the fuel pump and it can start.

SS is nice for sure. I'm also considering once again the latest Mustang since they do incredibly well with a turbo. I can (and will) just trailer it right up to Atlanta to the shop there that does so many of the Mustangs that are running the numbers at the 1/2 mile events. But the problem with any of these newer cars is the mod money is pretty much in the can if you want out. And the problems are more frequent than with a factory engineered car. With the GTR I was a big fan of pressing that big red button and it was always ready to play. If only someone would make a 1000hp awd car for 100k!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

If you're serious about bringing it somewhere and having them do it Steve, then hands down, Nelson Racing Engines. Tom Nelson will turn your Iroc into a monster. There is no doubt about it... with his own warranty, no less.

- Rob

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

better get out your check book.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

F nelson.... steve morris is where real race winning setups go, or proline
Or even andy jenson

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Both bleed Red, White and Blue, and that is all that matters to me. Whenever I hear Morris I think Procharger, although I know he works with turbo's. i lean towards Nelson because not only have I followed his work all this time, I also met him. But come on now, I know every single one of you who watched that C4 Corvette that he built in the video above is dying to see it up against a UGR Lambo on the highway. C4 ZR1's and C4 Callaway's used to beat that crap out of the exotics, but GM kinda took a backseat to them since then. Then came the return of the ZR1 of course, but by then the aftermarket for the Lambo's was too much to deal with. I think Tom just reinvented the term "Sledgehammer Corvette" with that thing. That thing is insane, whether you prefer Morris to him our not... it's still a true American Muscle Car in that video, in every sense of those three words.

- Rob

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I kinda wanna part out my thirdgen, do a blown LT1 in the C4, and buy a new C7 for a daily driver...

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I already had a feeling it was coming to that, especially now with the head gasket leak issue. Easy job to fix, sure, but after all of that assembly who the hell would want to rip the engine apart again. This is why you don't see Steve, or even myself racing to show any updates, I'm freaking exhausted from it. It took him this long to route four plug wires, and has taken me just as long to paint the other headlight cover lol. I think I've had it, honestly. This is definitely next for me. Thought long and hard about it too, I just like them, and always wanted a new one. Could care less about breaking any records, just as long as it holds its' own out there on the street, and I'm sure it will. Seen one the other day on my way home from work;

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Just wanna show you guys something, and this is funny af. Watch the bike rider shake his head just after the 1:33 mark in the first view of the second race with the UGR Lambo. Then when you watch the second view of that same race, you realize why he was shaking his head. That 2000 horsepower UGR Lambo pulled so freaking hard is literally disappeared from the footage. Watch, seriously, watch. Maybe he went back to 1985 and met up with Doc and Marty McFly lol...

- Rob

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I must be going crazy, because I can't find the pictures of the crank trigger wheel you fabricated or the sensor bracket.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

You're not crazy you're just freaking lazy...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Steve where you at with this bro? We were looking at Porsche's this past weekend, I sheet you not. Maybe not quite as fast as Eddie Bello's Porsche, but damn, you wanna talk about high tech. Test drive a new Porsche...

- Rob

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Oh that's right. Video. Ugh. I hate video lol

Steve, you cut the balance hole that offsets the missing tooth on the opposing side. Does that result in a vibration ? On an 8 1/4" wheel I'd imagine one missing tooth might be a lot at high rpm.


-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

An Italian guy from Jersey should be driving a Ferrari. Not a Porche.

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Lol yins have porsche gtr coin yet mess with basic stock block turbo thirdgens?