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History / OriginalityGot a question about 1982-1992 Camaro or Firebird history? Have a question about original parts, options, RPO codes, when something was available, or how to document your car? Those questions, answers, and much more!
man those are some sweet sweet cars. When I come back from deployment I'll make u an offer...especially on that Formula. Man u guys must have egos thru the roof! Bet there's a certain type of "I'm the ****" sense when u can walk out and see that 1LE code! Thanks for posting guys! U guys should tell me a little background history of the cars. Did u know they were 1LE cars when u bought them, also in ur opinions what do u think there worth...I don't even want to guess out of fear of insulting one of u
Yeah is that dude on drugs!!! Man that's cheap, I just paid 13,500 for.my IROC a while back! Is it just that the 90s RS aren't nearly as worth as much as the IROCS. What's he mean on the part below...so mainly only law enforcement could get the special performance package???
1992 Chevrolet Camaro
fuel: gas
odometer: 27000
title status: clean
transmission: automatic
A b4c is a special service optioned car designed for high speed pursuit incorporating top speed, handling and braking all in a package that is as reliable and heavy duty as it could ever get. 589 is the total production for the last 3rd Gen 1992 and 1181 total 3rd Gen B4C cars were built for the combined 91-92 years that these were available. 5 were researched to be acquired by people outside law enforcement .What makes it even more unique as to get one new was not easy as the ordering dealer had to be a GM fleet dealer and could have been subjected to a 10K at the time for selling to non law enforcement. Unlike the Caprice and Crown Vic, when these cars came out, they held them under their hat harder than most.
Kinda stinks of a scam... Priced too good to be true. Listed in one place, description says it's in another... etc.
With all due respect, 1LE hype is the product of well seeded rumors, repeated and passed down over the years. These rumors die harder than hard. It's a front brake upgrade. That's it. A brake upgrade that generally required deleting the air conditioning. Any tertiary benefits, such as stiffer bushings or special struts are moot at this point, considering age, deterioration, etc. You can make any LB9 5spd/L98 car perform better than a 1LE with properly selected maintenance parts, and about $1k investment in brakes and suspension. The only thing that propels the 1LE beyond that reality is the mystical Boogeyman, monster in the closet, that it was a "special factory race car".
And yes, people have known about 1LEs for a LONG time. Motor Trend published an article in 1990 comparing the 1LE to ZL1 Camaros, COPOs, and Winston Cup cars. "Jerking off", indeed. While this isn't likely the first "1LE hype" article, it definitely illustrates my point that the "1LE myth" runs deep. The whole thing is rather like a scam perpetuated by the car rags.
One more page with test results... It's worth noting that many people have run faster 1/4 mile times, without professional drivers or magazine trickery, with bone stock non-1LE thirdgens.
I told myself I wouldn't post the entire article. I refuse to be a party to proliferating nonsense. But this page just rings so loud and clear that the hype is a steaming pile of Bull excrement, that I really feel it illustrates the point I'm trying to make. Come to think of it, the writer lays it on so thick, it sounds almost like sarcasm.
One more page with test results... It's worth noting that many people have run faster 1/4 mile times, without professional drivers or magazine trickery, with bone stock non-1LE thirdgens.
Just say no to 1LE hype.
That'good good information right there...yeah I mean it does sound weird why he is selling it so low...Im gonna email him and report back here lol. That car looked like in the pics it had a factory radio and A.C. too...i thought most of the 1LE didn't have that?
He made it sound like this use to be a police car and stuff too...I had heard those models were used as police cars for like California highway patrol??? No? I don't know...it sounds convincing to me...but after much research on these cars like u said Drew, there's the truth...then the stretched truth shall we say on A lot of things...or u have ppl like me that just don't know any better....YET! I'm determined to figure every little things out about these damn cars lol
The B4C package was sold to law enforcement for use as a police interceptor or what-have-you. The easy way to think of them is that it's a Z28 without any of the cosmetic Z28 options, and in some cases the 1LE front brakes. Or as an RS body on Z28 running gear. The 1LE front brakes weren't used on all of them, IIRC early 91 B4Cs didn't have them, later 91 and 92 did, or something like that.
Being intended for use by law enforcement, B4Cs didn't require deleting the A/C. They also didn't have the 1LE suspension changes.
Other somewhat common traits of B4Cs is the base model interior, and other lacking options that you'd expect to see on a similar Z28. Gov't wasn't as likely to spring for nice seats and upholstery for a working car.
The B4C package was sold to law enforcement for use as a police interceptor or what-have-you. The easy way to think of them is that it's a Z28 without any of the cosmetic Z28 options, and in some cases the 1LE front brakes. Or as an RS body on Z28 running gear. The 1LE front brakes weren't used on all of them, IIRC early 91 B4Cs didn't have them, later 91 and 92 did, or something like that.
Being intended for use by law enforcement, B4Cs didn't require deleting the A/C. They also didn't have the 1LE suspension changes.
Other somewhat common traits of B4Cs is the base model interior, and other lacking options that you'd expect to see on a similar Z28. Gov't wasn't as likely to spring for nice seats and upholstery for a working car.
Cool man, well the guy text me back and he said I could call tonight! Haha I love doing this stuff...told him I want the story on the car and stuff...so hopefully we can chat and talk about cars and what not...says hes just really hard up on money is why the price is low. I'm sure it will be a fun phone call either way
Sorry but the 1le package was more than just rumors and hype and a front brake upgrade. It included a 36mm front swaybar, bigger rear swaybar, a "wonderbar" front frame stiffener, 11.9" front brakes with dual piston pbr aluminum calipers, rear disk brakes, 16" wheels, lower gears with posi, and Aluminum driveline. I think the springs might be different too but dont quote me on it.
The 10.5" brakes with rear drum are marginal at best. Almost scary bad and will be my next upgrade. The 11.9s should have been standard equipment. got my hands on some real 1le swaybars for my car look at my sig for details and let me tell you it makes a huuuge inprovement in handling over the 305 tbi suspension. Car handles like its on rails now. I also noticed a seat of the pants improvement in accelleration with the aluminum driveline. I think the point people are trying to make is you can get all these parts in the aftermarket and in some cases like the brakes get even better parts so dont go spending crazy money on a 1le car.
But to answer your origional question, if your deadset on buying a 1le going to want to check out the holy grail of 1les a1992 Z28 1LE R7U COPO Camaro on my local craigslist here in washington state.
The B4C package was sold to law enforcement for use as a police interceptor or what-have-you. The easy way to think of them is that it's a Z28 without any of the cosmetic Z28 options, and in some cases the 1LE front brakes. Or as an RS body on Z28 running gear. The 1LE front brakes weren't used on all of them, IIRC early 91 B4Cs didn't have them, later 91 and 92 did, or something like that.
Being intended for use by law enforcement, B4Cs didn't require deleting the A/C. They also didn't have the 1LE suspension changes.
Other somewhat common traits of B4Cs is the base model interior, and other lacking options that you'd expect to see on a similar Z28. Gov't wasn't as likely to spring for nice seats and upholstery for a working car.
13 of the 1991 B4C cars got the 1LE brakes at the very end of the year, all of the 1992 ones did.
But to answer your origional question, if your deadset on buying a 1le going to want to check out the holy grail of 1les a1992 Z28 1LE R7U COPO Camaro on my local craigslist here in washington state.
But to answer your origional question, if your deadset on buying a 1le going to want to check out the holy grail of 1les a1992 Z28 1LE R7U COPO Camaro on my local craigslist here in washington state.
Damn, excuse me while I wipe the drool from my mouth. Me and the Camaro are going to need some alone time now please lol...that thing is bad ***!!! Can't imagine what it's going for....30K? This one is nice 1990 Pontiac Trans Am 1LE Race Package eBay
http://m.ebay.com/itm/112527772484?_mwBanner=1
Yupp and 15k to me ain't **** for that car!???? I have no idea why some of u guys....besides desperate for cash sell some of ur cars...ur nuts...insane...lock u up in a mental hospital lol..I bought my first Iroc-z like 5 months ago...even u tied me down and said either sell the car or where choping ur arms off, I say take the arms lol. Wait...but then how could I drive the cars, doah!
Last edited by scottmoyer; 08-22-2017 at 07:34 PM.
U know...someone on here...or someone really really needs to spend some time and make a new hard back book with pics of from like 1985 when the TPI stuff started an maybe like 92 or so of ALL this information on third gen stuff! That would take so much time, but would be so cool. You could have like each year...what was available...and the "new things, or changes" that came out each year etc. That would take some time, but someone needs to help preserve all this interesting history into pages we can read about forever...not just having to search the hell out of on forums lol
If you don't know what you're talking about, it's better to just stay out of the conversation. FYI, You don't know what you're talking about.
The 1LE option didn't include 90% of what you rattled off. Most of those items are found on 1LE cars because they're LB9 5spds, and L98 cars. The rear discs, sway bars, springs, gear ratios, limited slip, are all required by the engine choice, not the presence of 1LE. By the logic you're using 1LE included two doors, four wheels, and an internal combustion engine.
Your impression of 1LE is exactly what I'm talking about. People misunderstand what they've read and pass it on as gospel, and the next thing you know, a brake package becomes some factory super car.
No kidding...I'll have to search for that one! Cool!
Start here - http://www.teufert.net/camaro/67-95camaro.htm Scroll down to the heading that says "History of 3rd Generation Camaro". That is the original document, warts and all. While it's a bit lacking, and has a few errors, it's by far the easiest to follow of the re-writes that came afterward.
At the bottom of every page on here, you'll see -
1982 Camaro '82 || 1983 Camaro '83 || 1984 Camaro '84 || 1985 Camaro '85 || 1986 Camaro '86 || 1987 Camaro '87 || 1988 Camaro '88 || 1989 Camaro '89 || 1990 Camaro '90 || 1991 Camaro '91 || 1992 Camaro '92
Each of those links will take you to an updated version of the earlier document. Some nitwit decided to chop them up into individual years, so a lot of it doesn't make sense now unless you start at 1982 and read all the way through. It's also important to note that the current version here has been rewritten and edited by MULTIPLE authors, resulting in a bit of a mess. While it's not 100% accurate, it's better than most other sources, and for being free information it's hard to beat. You can also access it through the Tech Data link in the toolbar at the top of the page, along with the Firebird version.
Start here - http://www.teufert.net/camaro/67-95camaro.htm Scroll down to the heading that says "History of 3rd Generation Camaro". That is the original document, warts and all. While it's a bit lacking, and has a few errors, it's by far the easiest to follow of the re-writes that came afterward.
At the bottom of every page on here, you'll see -
1982 Camaro '82 || 1983 Camaro '83 || 1984 Camaro '84 || 1985 Camaro '85 || 1986 Camaro '86 || 1987 Camaro '87 || 1988 Camaro '88 || 1989 Camaro '89 || 1990 Camaro '90 || 1991 Camaro '91 || 1992 Camaro '92
Each of those links will take you to an updated version of the earlier document. Some nitwit decided to chop them up into individual years, so a lot of it doesn't make sense now unless you start at 1982 and read all the way through. It's also important to note that the current version here has been rewritten and edited by MULTIPLE authors, resulting in a bit of a mess. While it's not 100% accurate, it's better than most other sources, and for being free information it's hard to beat. You can also access it through the Tech Data link in the toolbar at the top of the page, along with the Firebird version.
Hey thanks man! I'll read it when I get some more down time!
Sorry but the 1le package was more than just rumors and hype and a front brake upgrade. It included a 36mm front swaybar, bigger rear swaybar, a "wonderbar" front frame stiffener, 11.9" front brakes with dual piston pbr aluminum calipers, rear disk brakes, 16" wheels, lower gears with posi, and Aluminum driveline. I think the springs might be different too but dont quote me on it.
The 10.5" brakes with rear drum are marginal at best. Almost scary bad and will be my next upgrade. The 11.9s should have been standard equipment. got my hands on some real 1le swaybars for my car look at my sig for details and let me tell you it makes a huuuge inprovement in handling over the 305 tbi suspension. Car handles like its on rails now. I also noticed a seat of the pants improvement in accelleration with the aluminum driveline. I think the point people are trying to make is you can get all these parts in the aftermarket and in some cases like the brakes get even better parts so dont go spending crazy money on a 1le car.
Dude,
You are so far off base on this that it is ridiculous. You need to go back to a lurker status and not post until you actually know what you are talking about. You list a whole slew of parts as 1LE parts when they are not. My GTA has the PBR rear calipers, aluminum driveshaft, 36/24mm sway bars, 16" wheels, lower gears, and the stiffer WS6 springs. But I can guarantee that it is not a 1LE. Nope, just a GTA with all the standard GTA options. Even my '92 Trans Am has most of those options and it is a convertible which is about as far from a 1LE as you can get. Then you compare it to your base model Firebird with TBI and drum brakes. C'mon man! I highly doubt that with your 305 TBI that you would feel that much of an improvement with a driveshaft swap. What you are actually feeling is called a placebo.
Drew,
I am with you 100%. When it comes to thirdgens, I put 1LE right there in the same category as WS6. It was a suspension package. Nothing else. It cracks me up every time I see a Firebird Formula WS6 for sale. It was standard with all Formulas and GTAs yet people act like it increases values.
1LE included both common parts available in other option codes, and some specific 1LE only stuff (specific to each year). BUT you couldn't get the same combination of "stuff" unless you ordered 1LE. Brakes were 1LE only items not found in other packages, as well as the struts and shocks. Bushings were different early on, but became stock. Fuel tank in 1989 was unique to 1LE, but was standard afterwards.
Fact: Racing breeds better production. Some race only parts become standard production.
In 88 and 89, 1LE was more unique than in later years.
Now GM didn't say you could also get similar suspension if you ordered FE2/WS6 stuff. But hey those don't sound as sexy.
If you want a cool car ... get an 1LE. It will always have more "stories" than a non-1LE. Ya sure you can build a better car nowadays, but it will never be a 1LE. Same as a Yenko ... you can build a resto mod that kicks butt, but it won't ever be a Yenko. Heck the resto mod would be many times better to drive and enjoy, but it won't be a Yenko. Ok Yenko vs. 1LE ... a far stretch, but you get the point.
And we all agree ... buy/build what you like, not what everyone else likes.
To get the 1LE code, you had to have the other stuff like Drew says. So depends how you look at it, chicken and egg. To get 1LE, you had to have all the stuff. But you could get most of the stuff in other packages too, just not the brakes, not the fuel tank (in 1989), Not the Struts and shocks either. But sure you can buy equal or better stuff now 28 years later ... lol.
Gm did funny things. Cop cars had their own package with some of the same. R7U race cars had some of the same. 1LE seemed to be in so many spots that it creates the confusion and stories.
I like the history and originality of parts. So what was unique in one year vs. another is nifty info ... for me anyways.
If you had a choice ... but a 1LE car. Always going to have a mysterious story with it. But then again ... a nice Vert with a slushbox and a 305 would be just fine for me to drive every day!
So aside from the front brakes, what does a 1LE of the same year get that my GTA did not?
91 ... well brakes, struts and shocks were certainly 1LE only. Rear sway bars on 1LE were reduced from the 24mm on your car to 23 or 21 on the 1LE (this may have been a R7U thing too). Gas tanks should be the same by 91. Less is documented here, but rear control arms had different bushings ... unsure if those became stock. They change from 89-91 in the 1LE/R7U cars.
I deal mostly in R7U cars, and there are some differences there. Some of the non-raced cars may have been different. I have documents from racing tech. There isn't as much available for the US cars. The GM "books" list stock-replacement parts ... but they aren't always the same as what was delivered.
Your car is pretty modified ... probably better than what a stock 1991 1LE car would have had back in 1991. But remember ... these were showroom STOCK racers. Not aftermarket parts. Some rules about what you could use in the race.
Yes, my car is quite modified now. When it was stock though, it had nearly everything that a 1LE would have aside from the front brakes. Its just my take, but I really don't find 1LE all that different, particularly for what people ask for anything they feel is a 1LE part when in reality the only real unique thing is the front brakes. That is unless there is something I am unaware of. Things were a little different on the early 1LEs, but by '91 they weren't that much different. All without the creature comforts of radio, A/C, power locks/windows, etc.
R7U cars are in a different category to me. Those are cars that are actually raced, not imitation race cars for the street.
If you don't know what you're talking about, it's better to just stay out of the conversation. FYI, You don't know what you're talking about.
The 1LE option didn't include 90% of what you rattled off. Most of those items are found on 1LE cars because they're LB9 5spds, and L98 cars. The rear discs, sway bars, springs, gear ratios, limited slip, are all required by the engine choice, not the presence of 1LE. By the logic you're using 1LE included two doors, four wheels, and an internal combustion engine.
Your impression of 1LE is exactly what I'm talking about. People misunderstand what they've read and pass it on as gospel, and the next thing you know, a brake package becomes some factory super car.
Wow, someone needs to let their benchracing stool cool down.
So by your logic, the way you origionally wrote it, and the way i took it, one could order a v6 auto with a peg leg and get 1le brakes.
The point is, i knew you could only get 1le brakes with the posi traction option and 3.42 gears when put behind an 305 tpi or l98 engine. At which point 1le is triggered Automatically.. amd you end up with all the suspension goodies in the process. so sorry for lumping it all into one for ease of reference to the OP on what you will find on a 1le equipped car. Amd my personal experiences with them over the stock lo3 stuff which obviously none of you have. So instead of looking up and writing out 10 rpo codes i said 1le but you cant get 1le without the others so whats the difference. I forgot to mention my parts were from a 92 l98 1le equipped car in case it confused you.
R7U cars are in a different category to me. Those are cars that are actually raced, not imitation race cars for the street.
Back in the day ... US teams used the 1LE cars to go showroom stock racing. R7U was that, but with stricter rules.
Granted a small percentage of actual 1LE cars were in fact raced.
What makes a 1LE "cool" is the history that it comes with. If it doesn't have history, then the possibility of what it could have been is the attraction.
Regardless ... 1LE helps raise the awareness of all Thirdgens. I don't understand why we put them down - in any way.
I don't think of my 89 as "just" a car with some brakes. It has a cool story and that is what I talk about at the car shows. I don't think I've ever talked about the brakes.
Dude,
You are so far off base on this that it is ridiculous. You need to go back to a lurker status and not post until you actually know what you are talking about. You list a whole slew of parts as 1LE parts when they are not. My GTA has the PBR rear calipers, aluminum driveshaft, 36/24mm sway bars, 16" wheels, lower gears, and the stiffer WS6 springs. But I can guarantee that it is not a 1LE. Nope, just a GTA with all the standard GTA options. Even my '92 Trans Am has most of those options and it is a convertible which is about as far from a 1LE as you can get. Then you compare it to your base model Firebird with TBI and drum brakes. C'mon man! I highly doubt that with your 305 TBI that you would feel that much of an improvement with a driveshaft swap. What you are actually feeling is called a placebo.
Drew,
I am with you 100%. When it comes to thirdgens, I put 1LE right there in the same category as WS6. It was a suspension package. Nothing else. It cracks me up every time I see a Firebird Formula WS6 for sale. It was standard with all Formulas and GTAs yet people act like it increases values.
You are so cool because you have a way better car than me. In fact 2 way cooler 3rd gens a gta and a t/a vert. Very cool. Sorry my lowly lo3 car is not up to your standards and therefore being able to talk about how suspension and drivetrain components from a performance model can be used on a base model to offer upgraded performance and actually make it fun to drive on a budget.
Since all the stock engines are lacking power its the best way to build a car. IMO. Thats great your non 1le cars have the same swaybars i like them too and i wasnt arguing the fact.
A placebo is what you ate with your breakfast this morning.
Car definately revs quicker through the gears and chirps second more easily.. Anything makes a difference when your pushing 170 hp..
Why dont you try and sniff out some more of Drews black sunshine?
Jeremy, you need to understand there is a faction of this hobby (group of guys) who look down their noses at these cars and diminish them to simply front brakes. They've said above that their GTA or convertible (the fat guys in the room) are equal in every way....they are not. I can't explain why they would slam a program that was the first one to come out of GM in over 40 years to build an actual track car for multiple series (US & Canada) but they do.
That being said, the front brakes they speak of are not just the pads & the caliper, they were a complete spindle, bearing, rotor, caliper and pad package that were developed for the track. The whole assembly pushes the front wheels out an extra half an inch on each side for better cornering and allows the car to perform better in heavy, repeated braking situations. Although they like to compare 1/4 mile times that is not the track these cars were built for and they know it. I'd put one of my cars against any of theirs on any track they like and watch theirs go off the corners into the rough, while mine (and Marks) will track on through.
BTW - I don't need the money, and as the pricing reflects, really don't care at this point. The thrill for me is the hunt, the chase & the kill. I enjoy finding cars that nobody else can, buying them, researching their stories & sourcing the right parts & materials to restore them correctly and getting them back to the condition they need to be kept in. I don't like showing them and grow tired of them when they are done.
Although I took the Z28 out on Sunday & put over 60 miles on it through the Litchfield hills, they are in the way and are keeping me from other projects I would like to get to. If you are seriously interested in buying one or several of them, give me a call.
you need to understand there is a faction of this hobby (group of guys) who look down their noses at these cars and diminish them to simply front brakes.
You need to understand there is a faction of this hobby who are dead sick and tired of reading 1LE hype. From magazine articles to Ebay listings for 1LE weatherstripping, to the crazy forum posts, it's gotten to the stage of inducing nausea.
Originally Posted by PurelyPMD
I'd put one of my cars against any of theirs on any track they like and watch theirs go off the corners into the rough, while mine (and Marks) will track on through.
Now this is actually bench racing. And a ridiculously bold statement given that "any of their cars" could literally have anything bolted under it's hood. All it takes to make a 92 Z28 with an L98 match or better a stock 1LE, is a LS1 brake upgrade, and a set of Konis.
You need to understand there is a faction of this hobby who are dead sick and tired of reading 1LE hype. From magazine articles to Ebay listings for 1LE weatherstripping, to the crazy forum posts, it's gotten to the stage of inducing nausea.
Now this is actually bench racing. And a ridiculously bold statement given that "any of their cars" could literally have anything bolted under it's hood. All it takes to make a 92 Z28 with an L98 match or better a stock 1LE, is a LS1 brake upgrade, and a set of Konis.
My posts have never been hyped Drew and stock for stock you cannot deny that a regular production L98 or LB9/mm5 wouldn't stand a chance.
You cannot continue to compare modified cars to stock 1LE's. Although it may support your argument it's an apples to oranges comparison.
You need to understand there is a faction of this hobby who are dead sick and tired of reading 1LE hype. From magazine articles to Ebay listings for 1LE weatherstripping, to the crazy forum posts, it's gotten to the stage of inducing nausea.
This is my point exactly. I've seen numerous parts listed as 1LE which have nowhere remotely 1LE specific. There was an N10 exhaust system recently sold here on TGO that was listed in the title as a 1LE exhaust. Did 1LEs have them? Yes, but so did every L98 and some TPI 305s. That is on here. Go to ebay and you'll see, just as Drew referenced, interior parts listed as 1LE.
The cars themselves, if kept stock, do have some historical value. And yes, in stock form they were in some ways superior to other stock cars. But everybody hypes them up and in the twenty-five years since they stopped making thirdgens the aftermarket has caught and passed any performance gains they might have had. There is somebody selling a 1LE brake setup (spindles, rotors, calipers, etc.) for $1300 simply because it came off a 1LE car. Can you sit there and honestly tell me that is a better option than doing a LS or corvette brake conversion that comes in at half that price?
1LE isn't ALL hype, its just one of many key terms that will help parts/cars come up in searches. Many terms are used for many cars and that helps bring the stuff within view of a broader window of buyers.
Are there better brake upgrades? He11 yes, does everyone want those? he11 no, some of us have done wild builds and are now that we are older we are venturing back to wanting period correct builds. Nothing wrong with going either way.
No need to bash these cars, there is enough of that already, plus I don't need the city to remove the 1LE statue at the park
in the cover of night.....
My posts have never been hyped Drew and stock for stock you cannot deny that a regular production L98 or LB9/mm5 wouldn't stand a chance.
I didn't intend to single you out. If it seemed that way, you have my sincere apology. Just from discussing thirdgens in general with Jeremy, I was working from the assumption that he may have fallen victim to the hype as he's become addicted to thirdgens. My goal was to share the knowledge of what 1LE is/was, and alternatives to a spendy collector car, that might glimmer brighter than what he already has, but isn't necessarily all that it's cracked up to be.
In stock config, a non-1LE would be at a disadvantage on a track. However a front brake upgrade and a set of Konis is not going to hurt the value of a non-1LE that a person would likely put on a racetrack...
Originally Posted by PurelyPMD
You cannot continue to compare modified cars to stock 1LE's. Although it may support your argument it's an apples to oranges comparison.
I'm not sure I started that branch of the conversation. When you said "any of their cars", you kind of opened the topic to that direction. Only one of my cars is really "stock", as I'm sure blacksunshine'91's aren't likely completely stock.
I'd also suggest that in 99% of cases, it's not apples/oranges at all. For the car collector, the stock advantage of a 1LE might mean something. But for the vast majority that wants a car that's more affordable for virtually the same performance (+ or - brake fade), the value isn't really there.
I'm glad there are 1LEs out there. I appreciate you guys that can afford to own several of them and share them with us in photos and whatnot. I just feel there needs to be a voice of reason to keep things somewhat realistic.
I think I've told the story many times of my black '89. It would have been 1LE number 112, since I ordered it one day before the cutoff. At the last moment I added AC, since I figured this would be my daily driver. Who knew 28 years later it would only have 11K miles.
I guess if I could have gone back in time I would have deleted AC and gotten that 1LE. But...on the other hand, the car has never seen a race track, and I sure would have missed staying cool on hot summer days. Plus the fog lights really help you see on dark roads.
You need to understand there is a faction of this hobby who are dead sick and tired of reading 1LE hype. From magazine articles to Ebay listings for 1LE weatherstripping, to the crazy forum posts, it's gotten to the stage of inducing nausea.
...
I'm glad there are 1LEs out there. I appreciate you guys that can afford to own several of them and share them with us in photos and whatnot. I just feel there needs to be a voice of reason to keep things somewhat realistic.
Drew,
At times, your endeavor of being the voice of reason comes across in a horribly negative tone. I've taken a keyboard lashing from you recently on B4C and 1LE combo. Never nice to be on the receiving end. oh well, I'm thick skinned. Always something to be learned.
I'd hope my posts here, along with others help bring fact and dis-spell fiction. The point of view is from a stock, numbers matching time frame vs. what you can go build.
The magazine articles are part of history. There wasn't much to write about back then, so the story of 1LE was a great read. The secret code! Now that I have an 89 1LE, I felt it was worthy to document what was actually part of the package so as to dis-spell myth. My 88 "pre-1LE" has been fun to document the development of the brakes specifically. Having a few more reference cars would be great to compare differences. The magazines and parts books are reference material. Together with reference cars, they make up the full story.
I'm going out to my garage now to pay worship my 1LE ... If I don't sacrifice a set of tires each week the 1LE gods will be upset!
I have to question the better springs on the 1LEs. I have the buildsheets for 3 of the 1988 1LE cars and I have buildsheets for 1989-1992 1LEs and regular Z28s. The springs listed on the 1988 1LEs are the same used on a 1989 Z28. I also have a buildsheet that has the same spring code as a 1992 Z28 convertible. The rear springs are the same.
Mark, you posted the info above, what came in the 1989 1LE. It defines the brakes, the aluminum driveshaft and the baffled gas tank, which became standard in 1989 anyway. I do see the aluminum driveshaft listed on every 1LE buildsheet, except the '92 B4C/1LE cars. I do not have any build sheets for cars with JG1 that aren't 1LE, so I'd have to say that the 1LE was a brake/driveshaft option. However, we all know that there are other 3rd gens out there that have the aluminum driveshaft that aren't 1LEs, so when did it become a parts bin part for these cars?
In general, the 1LE is a factory car designed for track purposes, but since they weren't all used that way, the specialty of them being more than a brake upgrade goes away. If every single one was tracked, they'd be more special. Right now, they are a limited production number of bigger brake cars. The R7U cars were factory built track cars and all of them were tracked or purchased by a team to track them, but they never were, making them special!
I would love to have a 1LE just due to the limited production number associated with the RPO, but the value of one should not exceed the value of any other similar 3rd gen.
Mark, you posted the info above, what came in the 1989 1LE. It defines the brakes, the aluminum driveshaft and the baffled gas tank, which became standard in 1989 anyway. I do see the aluminum driveshaft listed on every 1LE buildsheet, except the '92 B4C/1LE cars. I do not have any build sheets for cars with JG1 that aren't 1LE, so I'd have to say that the 1LE was a brake/driveshaft option. However, we all know that there are other 3rd gens out there that have the aluminum driveshaft that aren't 1LEs, so when did it become a parts bin part for these cars?
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hmm ... feeling under the microscope ... In 1989 ...
The R7U came with specific springs based on the racing package. Of the available springs, a particular ride height was picked. The 1LE I can't say for sure if it has them. No evidence to suggest that. Rather the springs were computer selected based on option codes (IE vehicle weight). My 89 is an odd duck being Canadian and being a GM car. It's identical to an R7U car but without the R7U code. So I have to consider as the unicorn so to speak.
The gas tank was 1LE specific in 1989. The taller baffle wall and extended pickup (IE sock). The pump had a different number, but no evidence to suggest it was unique. I don't have evidence to say it was standard in 1989, but I do have evidence in GM tech sheets in 1990 saying it was standard on all F-body cars. So for 1989 ... by the book, it was 1LE only.
I have nothing about the drive shaft in my notes (not even R7U stuff). The yellow pages are GM memos - to be honest I was surprized to read that. So for the TRANS AMs at least, that is how they were packaged. Not to say the driveshaft wasn't available outside that package.
1LE for sure is the brakes and struts. That is well documented. Unique numbers even in Drew's books. The B4C or Turbo TA might be different - again they are a package of options like the R7U.
The GM advertizing about 1LE suspension is more due to having to get FE2 level suspension in order to get 1LE ... but you could get FE2 without (just with different struts and springs).
Originally Posted by scottmoyer
I would love to have a 1LE just due to the limited production number associated with the RPO, but the value of one should not exceed the value of any other similar 3rd gen.
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A 1988 1LE Camaro should be the same value as a 1988 Camaro without 1LE but with similar options. I understand your point kinda, but most appraisers will value the 1LE as something above a non 1LE. Whether it be from real data or hype.
Consider ... You'd pay more for a car with LS brakes and Koni shocks than one without ... so why not the same for a 1LE car. That option code code had a cost to it? Makes no sense to me anyways.
[QUOTE=scottmoyer;6163516
Mark, you posted the info above, what came in the 1989 1LE. It defines the brakes, the aluminum driveshaft and the baffled gas tank, which became standard in 1989 anyway. I do see the aluminum driveshaft listed on every 1LE buildsheet, except the '92 B4C/1LE cars. I do not have any build sheets for cars with JG1 that aren't 1LE, so I'd have to say that the 1LE was a brake/driveshaft option. However, we all know that there are other 3rd gens out there that have the aluminum driveshaft that aren't 1LEs, so when did it become a parts bin part for these cars? .[/QUOTE]
08-20-2017, 12:44 AM
Get a load of this guy! 
