david86camaro

First my biggest question is when I pulled my trans a few weeks ago I only had 1 out of the 4 bolts holding my transmission to the bell housing. Does anyone know what these would be called and/or a resource for these bolts? (My car is a v6 with a non-world class t5). Also I need to replace the boot for the shift linkage, the only place I have found a new one of those is eBay (I think).
Since I have everything out I'm planning replacing the clutch (has 30-40k on the existing). What else should I replace? The car hasn't been on the road in 13 years, and I did get the engine running after I replaced the fuel pump.
Thanks in advance

david86camaro

So I opened up my trans, the 3rd/4th gear syncro was nearly shot(the issue that is why I have to rebuild). I noticed another issue that may or may not be anything, I included 2 pictures of small chips in the gear on the main input shaft. The gears seam to mesh fine and I don't hear anything when I spin it.



So does anyone have any input if I should worry about it and try to track down a new gear or just finish the rebuild and not worry about it

turd_gen

I just started to tear into my T5 as well. Your GM dealership may be able to source those transmission to bellhousing bolts, or maybe even Napa/Autozone. I think they're M10 and they're supposed to be hex with a torx socket as well.

If you're rebuilding the whole trans, I'd try to find a new gear to replace the damaged one. Plenty of 4th gen T5's around that you could use for parts.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Inspect the countershaft frontmost gear. If it is okay, replace the input(maindrive) since the gear is chipped in a way that's unavoidable for gear mesh contact.
The bolts to hold the trans. to bellhousing are M12x1.75 and reduced dia. combination drive head (15mm and T45 IIRC.) Usually, the 15mm hex allows loosening, and the Torx allows spinning them out because of clearance. In other words, get that type from any T5 thirdgen instead of grabbing just any bolts.

david86camaro

Thanks both of you. Well since the bolt that was in there was a hex head bolt in there, so that could be why the 3 other bolts fell out. That's what I get for having other people doing work on my car, I have had the clutch replace twice in the time I've owned it. Autozone doesn't have these bolts, I couldn't find anything online at Napa, so I guess I may need to call the dealership to see if they still have those bolts.

I did look over the front countershaft gear and I didn't see any damage which surprised me with the damage on this gear, but I have not pulled everything apart yet so I will double check later. So I guess I have to start tracking down a maindrive gear!

Pro Built Automatics

The input shaft and cluster gear and possible others are damaged due to lack of fluid or the fluid getting very thin from heat. The gears have the look of an under cut from what I can see in the pictures, and that is from low fluid level in most cases. The input synchro ring looks worn out. The clearance between the gear and synchro ring should be .050" or more. The inner part of the synchro ring that contacts the gear must have sharp ridges and not be flat.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

That case is shot.

It is stretched across the front, allowing the clutch gear and the countergear to be too far apart from each other, and therefore the teeth are misaligned. That's what caused the wear groove on the clutch gear teeth. The chip is probably from somebody hitting it with a hammer or dropping it while working on it. The metal those things are made out of is HARD, to the point that it shatters like glass on impact, and that's what it looks like.

I'm going to assume (yeah I know) that the reason you think there's something wrong with the "synchro", is that 3rd & 4th were very hard to shift, especially 4th, maybe not always, but some of the time at least. The reason for that was more likely, the missing bolts... what that does is allow the whole transmission to flop around, while the clutch gear is still held relatively firmly in place by the pilot bushing/bearing and the clutch gear bearing which only moves a tiny bit. This causes the clutch gear to misalign with the mainshaft as well; and since the "synchro" for those 2 gears bridges that gap, it's impossible for it to work right. Especially 4th but it affects 3rd as well.

I don't see anything wrong with the "synchro". I do however see where the sleeve has dug into the blocker ring (the brass piece) from the misalignment. It's not a functional feature of that part at all however. Doesn't look like it's anything that really matters, as once the trans is properly supported, and the pilot is assured to be good, the place that the sleeve dug into the blocker is out of the way of everything and the damage it did is of no consequence. Sure, if you were rebuilding it, it'd be a good idea to change it out; but it would probably work fine the rest of its life, regardless. The part that IS functional (the teeth) look OK. Then as long as the slots for the keys are OK, it will do what it's supposed to, without that other making any difference.



In this photo of a junk one I think I later threw away, you can see the result of a destroyed case: the leak from the front countergear bearing. It shows up as a dark stain on everything below the bearing. The trans is sitting turned a good ways from where it would sit in the car, so the leak doesn't appear to be "straight down" from it. You can also see the witness mark on the bearing from spinning in the case: the mark is where it rubbed on the clutch gear bearing retainer (big round rusty thing).

If your transmission leaks from there, it is toast. No rebuild in the world can possibly last, as long as it's put back into that case. You could go to the stealership and buy every single gear shaft and other hard part inside there brand new, replace every bearing and all the other "soft" parts as well, and you will still be right back where you are now in a short time. (length of time dependent on how you drive it) Don't spend a dime on rebuilding it, as it will be just money into the trash.

Pro Built Automatics

When the early 7/8" cluster gear shaft Muncie cases "stretched" as you call it, the gears broke. Never saw the wear pattern change, they just broke. And yes, it would leak from the front where the cluster gear shaft is. GM went to a 1" cluster gear shaft and it did a better job of the cluster gear not moving away from the main drive gears. The wear you are seeing here looks like lack of oil or oil getting to hot and thin, which allows the gears to "pit". This is where the heat treated part of the gear (it is only so deep) is worn thin and it separates.

david86camaro

A quick full picture as it sits now. Everything else looks good.
Here is the synchro that is shot, it would shift still be would grind going into 3rd.
I will look over everything, I don't think the case was damaged. I've owned this car for 24 years and it only has a V6 so it's not been abused. I had the clutch replaced about 20k miles ago, they were the last ones to touch the transmission. It has never been rebuilt before, I do have a full rebuild kit, and as long as the case is okay I will finish rebuilding it. I'm still on the fence if I replace the shaft/gear, the only one I found was over $100 on eBay. But at least my wife says to replace it, so I have the green light there!

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

There is no "cluster shaft" in a T-5. In the 1st design, the gear rides in the bearings at both ends, and is itself the inner race (in fact the rear countergear bearing is the same part # as a 10-bolt axle bearing); in the 2nd design, the bearings are tapered rollers, with preload.

The transmission that had the change from a 15/16" countershaft to a 1" was the Muncie. I still to this day use a small one as a drift.

OP, make no mistake about it, your case has the damage. Waste no money on it. Button it up, fill it w fluid, keep it full, leave it alone otherwise. Most likely it'll shift fine.

david86camaro

So I still haven't pulled things apart, but did start looking closer. There is a pile of metal and bearing at the bottom of the case (not sure how I missed it). So that is what caused the chip. I'm sure the bearing got destroyed because the missing bolts. So I just dug out my receipt from when I had the clutch replaced, some how I made it 36k with the wrong bolts before they fell out (I wonder how long it was before they fell out?) and destroyed the transmission! I guess I was pretty easy on the old beast!

Pro Built Automatics

My mistake on the Muncie shaft on its diameter. The brass synchro ring is shot from what you see in the photos. From what I can see of the other gears, they have not lost there hardness. What part of this case is ruined?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

The damage to the blocker ring is in a place that is non-functional. Kinda like having scratches on the outside of a valve body from dragging the trans across the parking lot without a pan. Looks like CRAP but doesn't affect whether it works.

The case is stretched across the front. The countergear has been allowed to be forced away from the clutch gear. The tooth damage is incontrovertible evidence. (where there's smoke there's fire) There's no other way to produce that particular damage.

The chip is from impact while the trans was disassembled. If it mattered, you'd be seeing MASSIVE evidence on the teeth it mates with, especially since the chip is on the drive (power) side of the tooth. This is one of those rare cases where absence of evidence actually IS evidence of absence.

The sludge in the fluid is probably a mix of bearings, those fornicated teeth, and just general wear. It didn't cause the tooth to shatter from impact. Impact caused that. If the tooth had shattered while the trans was assembled, you'd be seeing the piece laying in the bottom of the case.

david86camaro

The deeper I get in this transmission the worse it looks. I starting to think I should scrap this transmission and tri to find another used one to try and rebuild, or at least steal the gears and shafts from. (Anyone have some leads on one?). It looks like the end of the main shaft is messed up, it seams that every time I start working on it I find more bad news, and I get frustrated and walk away for a few days, it's a good thing I'm not in a rush on this!
I would have to say this synchro is shot!
The pile of metal that was at the bottom of the case.
The front end of the main shaft looks pretty bad. Oh and it looks like the detents are shot out of this gear too.
Am I wasting my time and money on this trans or is this salvageable?

turd_gen

Yeah I would walk away from that one, especially considering how cheap the V6 T5's are. You should be able to find one at a junkyard for a few hundred bucks.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

That stuff in the bottom of that trans isn't "sludge". That's WHOLE PARTS.

That's WAY destroyed. MUCH worse than the initial pics made it look. Honestly I think that's the worst tore up one I have ever seen, other than ones that exploded on the track.

All of those chew marks on the outside of the brass blocker ring still don't matter. But the way that square notch where the key fits into it is ate up, that's smoked. No chance it can ever work right again.

Those rectangular pieces laying in the bottom were the keys. The pieces of wire were the spring behind them. Some of the rest of it is recognizable as perhaps the washer that used to be on the end of the set of rollers inside the clutch gear, and perhaps the Torrington and its race that used to be between the clutch gear and mainshaft.

The front end of the mainshaft is basically not repairable. One of the very 1st T-5s I tore up, had that happen to it; I took it to a machine shop and had them make a sleeve of the correct OD, grind the shaft down, and press it on; it didn't last 200 miles before it was already worse than before. That metal has to be SUPER hard to survive, and that means, re-heat-treating whatever is done to it, AFTER it's all done. Possible I suppose, but for the majority of us, myself included, totally impractical.

Time for a whole other transmission.

I'm glad you DIDN'T take my advice in this case. I was WRONG. My apologies. There's no way that would have worked AT ALL without a tear-down and total makeover. Which, given that the case is ruined too, would still have been just as hopeless. That transmission is beyond "repair". Unless "repair" consists of setting it aside and installing a whole other one without using a single piece out of that one.

Throw it in the trash and go to work on a T-56 swap.

No way would I put a 6-cyl one in the car.

Out of curiosity, how much noise did this thing make? That had to have sounded like death wrapped up in a box. Did your driver not mention to you that something seemed unhappy down inside there?

david86camaro

You would think it would have made a lot of noise! It only made noise/grinding going into 3rd gear. If I remember right (it was 13 years ago) within the last few hundred miles I took it to my mechanic to see if they could guess what might be going on, they only rode with me but never put it up on a lift. Then besides that I did get the engine running earlier this year and have started it a few times, (the rear end was still dropped since I had to replace the fuel pump). It was whining a little with the clutch out, and with the clutch in the axle was still spinning a little so I thought it was the clutch, but It was the transmission hanging on the input shaft!

As far as the V6, that is staying. At this point it is running and shouldn't cost me much to be able to drive it, once I get a transmission and tires for it. I got in enough trouble with the V6 (I was younger), and is not worth the money now to replace. I have owned this care for 24 years with the V6, it's grown on me a little! If I want a V8 I will find a used newer Camaro or Vette that would have more power and lighter than this could ever be.