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What's up TGO!?!!! Thanks for the COTM Nomination! Here's the skinny on my 89 Iroc:
I bought the car in January of 1998. Really nice condition, and I DD'd it for about 4 years. Since then it's been one part at a time, slowly getting better each time. My goal for the car has always been to keep it looking as much stock appearing as possible, inside and out, while making it perform the way I want it. Sometimes "stock" takes a back seat to performance (383ci), but...sometimes stock wins. (TPI on top of that 383!!!) ...and just about every part has either been kept on purpose, or swapped on purpose. I've had it completely apart. I also take enormous pride in the doing the vast majority of the work myself. While not everything was done by me, I feel confident that more times than not, if I take it to a show or cruise in, I've done a lot more work myself than most. In a day of muscle cars having 500hp of the showroom floor, i think that helps set me apart.
I've had 3 interiors, 3 axles, 4 transmission, 2 engines, and just this past December, I cranked her up for the first time in a year with a new 383, TKO 600, and Holley HP EFI. I hope to keep it this way for awhile. (Maybe an 8.8, LOL) ...anyhow, here's the low down:
Holley HP EFI controlling a 383ci 2pc. RMS small block - RHS Pro Action heads - Custom Lunati Voodoo cam - High Flow Fuel Injection ported stock base, heavily ported SLP runners/plenum, all port matched - SLP headers with Hooker Aerochamber catback - TKO 600 5 speed - Ram HD clutch - Lakewood bell - custom alum. DS - BW 3.27 rear end (until I kill it).
Suspension/chassis - Ground Control Weight jacks - Tokico shocks/struts - UMI T/A, LCAs and relos, panhard, SFCs - Jamex STB - "LS1" front brakes/stock PBRs in back.
...that's most of the marquis parts most of you guys really wanna know about. Obviously there are COUNTLESS little pieces like the Racetronix pump and hotwire kit and the Painless dual fan controller...and gazillion others too numerous to list. Interior is all from Hawk's. It's a Beechwood car originally, but it's been refreshed. Plastics, seatcovers, dashpad...and CARMotorsports mats. ...and then all the little details that get overlooked. Custom rocker emblems, custom pinstripes, 4th gen window sweeps, 4th gen dual fan setup, polished wheels, front grill insert, FUNCTIONAL hood louvers, and on and on and on. I've got a ton of pics on my Iroc FB page (link in my sig) as well as most of the build on the engine/trans and Holley EFI. LOTS of details there not in THIS write up. Enjoy the pics! THANKS!!!!!!!!
Yeah man, I like that shot too! ...thought it wouldn't work being lowlighted, but it came out pretty sharp!
...and for the record, I voted for Porkenstein. ...when I finally bought my Iroc, it was between it and a 91 RS. Red on white with red stripes ( i don't think they were OE stripes in 91?) Anyhow, I love that combo, and his car is gorgeous! ....but...ultimately I BOUGHT my car, so I don't mind voting for his If I lose by 1 vote, I'll sleep just fine.
As for the interior, honestly I don't have a ton of good shots. These two were about 2 years ago. Still have the T5 and L98. You can see if ya look close, some of those interior plastics are doeskin, not beechwood. Never quite sat right with me, which is why I updated last year. I'm all beechwood, including period correct "no line" door handles.
What's up guys. Thanks for the nomination. I sometimes feel like a little fish in a big pond, when I look at the other cars on here.
I got my RS when I was 23 because I got tired of my 72 ford f-250 burning up valve seats. I loved the thirdgens ever since I laid eyes on the 85 Iroc's. This wasn't an Iroc but the interior was in pretty good shape and the price was right. She started out teal green with quite a bit of gray primer but was really straight minus a couple door dings. I really had no real plans for the car early on until the day a soccer mom blew my away in her little stock import.
That's when I went straight to my parents house and asked my dad if I could use his shop and his help to swap in a LT1. My buddy growing up always had camaros in high school and he had a 96 at the time. This was well before I found TGO unfortunately. They swap was pretty easy for the most part since I was going with a carb. My dad has built cars pretty much his whole life so I went with his advise on cam and carb. He can tune a holley in his sleep. I would love to LS swap sometime but I am extremely happy with the way it runs and drives.
On to the stuff people wanna read hah.
LT1
Cam is close to a LT4 hot cam. Specs escape me atm
1.65 rockers
Hooker headers into a single 3" exhaust
Built 700R4
4.11 gear...still a 10 bolt
CTSV brakes front and rear from BBU
Ground Control weight jacks (Fronts not in just yet)
Kyb agx all around
TDS wonderbar and the Alston SFC's from them
Founders adj panhard, casters, lca relocation brackets
C6 replica wheels 18 front and 19 rear
Sequential tail lights
Blue halos
Lethal Interiors seats
Just started doing suspension this year so some of the front still needs done so I can drop it down some. It's really bugging me heh. All the changes I have done so far make me wish I had done this years ago. On to the pics....Only one good one so far with the new wheels
Surely you're not going to just tease us with a fully clothed dance..
Can we get you to lift up the skirt a little bit?
Maybe move those panties to the side for a quick peek?
Now for the not so shiny part. I am usually more of a function first kind of guy and I like to change stuff under the hood too much to keep is as clean as the rest. Most people won't know what the extra plumbing is on the drivers side of the motor but it works great. It's something my dad thought up and every street car with a carb should use one imo.
Surely you're not going to just tease us with a fully clothed dance..
Can we get you to lift up the skirt a little bit?
Maybe move those panties to the side for a quick peek?
I'm just slow hah. Will try to get a small video tomorrow, if I can remember how to load it, so people can hear it.
Thanks for the nomination! This is post 1 of 3. This is the information/story post.
My car:
1991 Camaro B4C
Current mileage: 27,xxx
Options:
B4C Special Service Package - includes:
- LB9 305 TPI (230HP, 300 TQ)
- N10 Dual Converter Exhaust
- J65 Four Wheel Disc Brakes
- G80 / GU6 - 3:42 posi rear
- QLC Z28 16x8 wheels and tires
- FE2 (Z28) suspension
T5 Manual
UL5 Radio Delete
Misc:
- Original Paint
- Fully documented (window sticker, old titles, original bills of sale, GMPP warranty, etc.)
- 5 previous owners, of which 2 were flipping the car; I have been in touch with all but the original owner
- Built in Van Nuys, sold in Illinois
Modifications:
- Aftermarket muffler. Still have (believed to be) original muffler
- Replaced original Good Year Gatorback tires with Firestones. Still have original tires
- Previous owner put a cheap tint that is now removed, but present in some pics
- Replaced all bushings/rubber in suspension with polyurethane and added Bilsteins
- New AC compressor (have original still)
- Hidden iPod hookup behind radio delete panel (car came with factory speakers that a previous owner replaced with Kenwood speakers)
I view this car as unique in that its option packaging emphasizes performance. For example, the car has manual windows, locks, the base seats, base interior, and no rear defrost. The only thing it's missing performance-wise is 1LE, which would have given it the larger front disc brakes. Otherwise, it has all the go-fast stuff you could get from the factory thanks to everything that comes with B4C.
This car was never put in police service. The dealership confirmed that they intentionally ordered the car to circumvent fleet service so they could get a budget, sleeper Z28. I have email correspondence with the individual who ordered the car from GM confirming this.
Original Window Sticker:
RPO codes:
Brochures:
This car lives a different life from most low-mile, survivor cars. I always wanted a thirdgen but couldn't get one new. When I was finally able to get one, I wanted to best replicate being able to buy a brand new thirdgen Camaro. The 91-92 models are my favorite, but I prefer the RS bodywork to the Z28 spoiler and hood. I would have been happy with a low-mile, hardtop V8 T5 RS, but was fortunate enough to find this B4C, a Z28 in RS clothing.
I bought it in 2010 with about 12k miles on it, and have put on 15k of my own. I attempt to find the line between using the car appropriately versus using up the car. It looks great in photos, but it's hardly as clean as some of the other cars you'll find in this thread or on this forum. There are some paint chips and other imperfections; it may look clean when you photograph it from 10 feet away, but it's not concours ready. I share this not to diminish the car, but to let you know my philosophy on cars. I love preserving them, but the drive is an essential part of ownership. I try very hard to keep it immaculate. It doesn't see bad weather, but if you drive a car, rock chips happen. I bought it to have, to preserve, and to drive. The car does get maintained, having just recently received a thorough tuneup. Brakes are next, and in the next week it should undergo a thorough waxing and cleaning for an upcoming show.
Mechanically, the car is excellent and is very fun. Great steering feel, crisp handling, surprising strength from the 305TPI/T5, and the NVH isn't as bad as magazine articles made these cars out to be. It does have some Van Nuys installed squeaks and rattles, but that just means it's factory original.
The car has been owned and operated in 9 unique states since 1991, including both coasts.
Pictures:
When I bought it (late 2010):
When it came home (late 2010):
Feb 2017 Sideshot:
The car routinely goes to cars & coffee events, where I park it next to things you wouldn't normally expect to see beside a Camaro.
This is a composite of two photos - one of the hood up, one of the hood down. This visualizes the B4C - RS body work with TPI inside.
You can almost see the scuffs on the underside of the front ground effects.
I love photography, and you can find some of my stuff on instagram @kurtkphoto. Unfortunately, I'm in the process of moving so what I consider some of my best Camaro photos are in a hard drive that is packed away. Here are some that I was able to come up with really quick.
Here is the car's most current photo from two days ago (moving homes!):
Here's a photo from about a week ago - making its final run up the Angeles Crest Highway:
I bought it in 2010 with about 12k miles on it, and have put on 15k of my own. I attempt to find the line between using the car appropriately versus using up the car. It looks great in photos, but it's hardly as clean as some of the other cars you'll find in this thread or on this forum. There are some paint chips and other imperfections; it may look clean when you photograph it from 10 feet away, but it's not concours ready. I share this not to diminish the car, but to let you know my philosophy on cars. I love preserving them, but the drive is an essential part of ownership. I try very hard to keep it immaculate. It doesn't see bad weather, but if you drive a car, rock chips happen. I bought it to have, to preserve, and to drive. The car does get maintained, having just recently received a thorough tuneup. Brakes are next, and in the next week it should undergo a thorough waxing and cleaning for an upcoming show.
This entire paragraph and specifically the lines in bold pretty much sums up my feelings about collector cars.
KMK454 - Awesome car, story, philosophy...everything! ...you mention that your car isn't as "clean" as others in this thread. Man, I dunno. Mine has a LOT of little chips that don't show in photos. It's driven, and far from perfect. Far from concours level. FAR! Anyhow, glad you posted up all your pics and details! Thank you!
I agree with you guys. Mine is far from perfect. Cars are made to be driven and that's exactly what I do. You will never keep one pristine if you drive it. I admire the guys like KMK454. Lot's of guys wouldn't drive that car being that its fairly rare.
Man It was hard to make a decision this month. I voted for the red IROCZ as I am a sucker for them especially with a T Top. But the others are stunning examples too! Be proud of your cars folks! All the nominees this month have beautiful cars!
Citation, those taillights are pretty cool. I normally don't like sequential lights where every bulb lights, but the way those are only the turn signal in a sequential pattern is pretty cool. I haven't seen that before.
So in case anyone missed it (I know I did) Porkenstein has an LSA under that gorgeous Sunoco (I think?) hood! NICE!!!!!!!!!!! Hope he doesn't mind me posting some of the pics I found. I REALLY like this car, and went searching
I knew what was in there and that's why I nominated the car. Wish he had put some effort into this but I think he is retired and probably doesn't care.
I apologize for not paying closer attention, and mentioning this earlier.
KMK454, a couple of your photos appear to besignificantly photo-edited. Use of photo-edited pictures for COTM purposes is prohibited. A simple "auto-enhance" I think is okay. And of course, I'll allow for the fact that light and shadow sometimes do weird things that results in an interesting and unusual picture. But the pictures used for COTM have to be accurate representations of the vehicle.
So there is no misunderstanding, please note that I am a big fan of your B4C, and also a fan of your photography. But I have to be consistent on this issue. I'd have to say I dropped the ball by not catching it during this month's contest. And had you won, it may have rightfully stirred up controversy.
Linson - Very disappointed you chastised Kurt for a photo THAT I POSTED of his car and then locked the thread so there would be no further discussion. Coward!
The vote was done, there was a clear winner and contrary to any alleged advantage he may have had because of one or maybe two photographs, it was completely unnecessary. I would suspect simply by the nature of the post, it's wording and it's subliminal message that there is more at play here. This kind of infighting is caustic and childish! Either delete your post or allow the man to publicly defend himself!
I'm sure this post will get deleted but I've said my piece.
__________________ Some guys they just give up living
And start dying little by little, piece by piece,
Some guys come home from work and wash up,
And go racin' in the street.
You guys are reading between the lines too much and not in a healthy way either. Kind of ridiculous. For gosh sakes, Linson is one of the most careful spoken and kindest person on this board. Give the guy a little credit!
You guys are reading between the lines too much and not in a healthy way either. Kind of ridiculous. For gosh sakes, Linson is one of the most careful spoken and kindest person on this board. Give the guy a little credit!
I give Linson a ton of credit. Doing COTM is a tough job - and he's the guy who bears that burden every month.
But there is nothing wrong with having a conversation about it. I mean, we're all friends here.
I apologize for not paying closer attention, and mentioning this earlier.
KMK454, a couple of your photos appear to besignificantly photo-edited. Use of photo-edited pictures for COTM purposes is prohibited. A simple "auto-enhance" I think is okay. And of course, I'll allow for the fact that light and shadow sometimes do weird things that results in an interesting and unusual picture. But the pictures used for COTM have to be accurate representations of the vehicle.
So there is no misunderstanding, please note that I am a big fan of your B4C, and also a fan of your photography. But I have to be consistent on this issue. I'd have to say I dropped the ball by not catching it during this month's contest. And had you won, it may have rightfully stirred up controversy.
Dave
Thank you for opening this back up for discussion as I think Kurt was unfairly singled out in this case and that an apology is due.
There is a difference between someone like Kurt who knows how to shoot a picture and someone like myself who can only "take" a picture. A true photographer can take the same subject in the same setting and deliver a completely different image - without using post image software & editing. Images of other cars in this thread use some of those same techniques - depth of field shots of Abubaca's car and the time laps of Citation X's car are just some of the examples.
Why Kurt got singled out is not only disappointing but suspect. These threads are meant not only to celebrate the cars - but the images of them as well. Kurt & Abubaca in this thread have set the bar higher and made the competition that much better. Voting & participation was higher this month than in many recent months & I think the images were an important part of that.
Rules are rules and are there for a reason but to single out and admonish one member because he is simply better at the art would be like attacking someone else for being better at detailing or paint - it's harmful to the goal.
I'm not going to comment (other than to say I'm not going to comment) on Linson specifically mentioning KMK454.
As for car photography and editing:
I've been a graphic artist for 20 years, I'm an expert/professional with Adobe Photoshop, and an aspiring amateur photographer. I will also say that KMK clearly has photography skills beyond mine, and most here on TGO. While I can't prove ANY of his photographs have been edited, without even looking at them I would say that they probably are. Why? Because mine are. Any photographer knows that half the final photograph is done in the darkroom. Nowadays, that means photoshop. EVERY car photo in EVERY car mag is photoshop edited. 100% EVERY photo. It's part of the art of photography. The same, clean, fully detailed car will look different in sun and in clouds, and at every different time of day. Same car. Different look. A lot of those differences can also be achieved by editing. Doesn't change the car, or what it is. We're not talking removing dents and scratches, we're talking art. No different than changing depth of field and f-stops on your camera to achieve bokeh/focus effect. Some of mine are camera settings, some of mine are photoshop. I've gone through some previous COTM photos, and there are PLENTY that are edited. Some very well, some not as good, and they leave their tells. ...and some...to be fair, are probably great shots that were never touched. Car photography without photoshop/darkroom editing is like a car show without tire dressing.
With regards to the COTM rules:
Rules are rules, and linson puts in the work, so he gets to make the calls. Also, I'm not 100% clear on what IS allowed and what isn't. And assuming Linson isn't a photographer/graphic artist, I imagine he isn't aware of exactly what some of us car/are doing with regard to photo editing. That being said, I agree with PurelyPMD
These threads are meant not only to celebrate the cars - but the images of them as well. Kurt & Abubaca in this thread have set the bar higher and made the competition that much better.
Thank you for the compliment BTW. ....I think the rules should state no blatant trickery. No removing dents, or scratches or interior stains, no photochopping wheels you don't have, etc. etc. ...but beyond that, not only do I think editing should be allowed, I think it should be encouraged. Put your best foot forward. Be creative. Be artistic. We recently discussed NOT having work in progress cars as COTM contenders because we want to showcase the best of what our community has to offer. I agree with this, and showing our best cars, with the best possible photographs should be our goal. Sure some, will be over done, and maybe silly looking, but it's not dishonest, it's just not good photography, lol!!!!
To close, I apologize to Linson. My guess is that he simply attempted to regulate his COTM contest within the known rules, did so a little late, and it's kinda blown up. I don't think he had any negative intent, whether it came across as such or not. I (WE) appreciate all his efforts. That being said, ideally our goal should be to showcase the best of our community. The best cars, and the best pictures of those cars.
I'm not going to comment (other than to say I'm not going to comment) on Linson specifically mentioning KMK454.
As for car photography and editing:
I've been a graphic artist for 20 years, I'm an expert/professional with Adobe Photoshop, and an aspiring amateur photographer. I will also say that KMK clearly has photography skills beyond mine, and most here on TGO. While I can't prove ANY of his photographs have been edited, without even looking at them I would say that they probably are. Why? Because mine are. Any photographer knows that half the final photograph is done in the darkroom. Nowadays, that means photoshop. EVERY car photo in EVERY car mag is photoshop edited. 100% EVERY photo. It's part of the art of photography. The same, clean, fully detailed car will look different in sun and in clouds, and at every different time of day. Same car. Different look. A lot of those differences can also be achieved by editing. Doesn't change the car, or what it is. We're not talking removing dents and scratches, we're talking art. No different than changing depth of field and f-stops on your camera to achieve bokeh/focus effect. Some of mine are camera settings, some of mine are photoshop. I've gone through some previous COTM photos, and there are PLENTY that are edited. Some very well, some not as good, and they leave their tells. ...and some...to be fair, are probably great shots that were never touched. Car photography without photoshop/darkroom editing is like a car show without tire dressing.
With regards to the COTM rules:
Rules are rules, and linson puts in the work, so he gets to make the calls. Also, I'm not 100% clear on what IS allowed and what isn't. And assuming Linson isn't a photographer/graphic artist, I imagine he isn't aware of exactly what some of us car/are doing with regard to photo editing. That being said, I agree with PurelyPMD
Thank you for the compliment BTW. ....I think the rules should state no blatant trickery. No removing dents, or scratches or interior stains, no photochopping wheels you don't have, etc. etc. ...but beyond that, not only do I think editing should be allowed, I think it should be encouraged. Put your best foot forward. Be creative. Be artistic. We recently discussed NOT having work in progress cars as COTM contenders because we want to showcase the best of what our community has to offer. I agree with this, and showing our best cars, with the best possible photographs should be our goal. Sure some, will be over done, and maybe silly looking, but it's not dishonest, it's just not good photography, lol!!!!
To close, I apologize to Linson. My guess is that he simply attempted to regulate his COTM contest within the known rules, did so a little late, and it's kinda blown up. I don't think he had any negative intent, whether it came across as such or not. I (WE) appreciate all his efforts. That being said, ideally our goal should be to showcase the best of our community. The best cars, and the best pictures of those cars.
Great post, Chris. Thanks! I just wish I knew how to take a picture as well as you guys!
I don't think Linson was looking for all this when he made his original post. That being said, I'd like to think we can make this a constructive discussion about COTM rules and expectations.
Originally Posted by Linson
Quote: I apologize for not paying closer attention, and mentioning this earlier.
KMK454, a couple of your photos appear to besignificantly photo-edited. Use of photo-edited pictures for COTM purposes is prohibited. A simple "auto-enhance" I think is okay. And of course, I'll allow for the fact that light and shadow sometimes do weird things that results in an interesting and unusual picture. But the pictures used for COTM have to be accurate representations of the vehicle.
So there is no misunderstanding, please note that I am a big fan of your B4C, and also a fan of your photography. But I have to be consistent on this issue. I'd have to say I dropped the ball by not catching it during this month's contest. And had you won, it may have rightfully stirred up controversy.
Dave
So, as the moderator for COTM, I received an email notice of the above "reported post". I can assure you that there was no need for that, and that you and I could have and can work this out between us via PM or whatever.
The reason I included that post in this PM is so that you could have a chance to quickly read it over and hopefully see that it's really not so bad.
It wasn't meant to be personal and it wasn't meant to be a chastisement. It was only meant as a public service announcement to remind everyone what the rules are.
Also understand that the "Voting Thread" was closed - not to shut you out and deny you an opportunity to respond - but simply because the voting had ended, and I always close the "Voting Thread"...AND BOOM no I do not. I was ****ing confused. ****! I was about to say I always close the Voting Thread, but its the damned "Nomination Thread" that I always close at the end. I swear, I didn't realize it until I was writing it - just now!
Dude...fact is, I havn't been to work in three days because I'm home with the summer flu - brought on by allergies. I literally had to drag my *** down to my computer yesterday (in a NyQuil induced fog) and put together the winner thread, so closing the Voting Thread was an auto-pilot error - I in no way meant to talk **** and then slam the door.
whether you buy that, its in your hands. So...where does that leave us? I have just "unlocked" the Voting Thread. I guess I will continue with the text of this message as I originally intended - although I now have a better understanding why my post singling you out was so poorly received.
I was going to say that if you like, I can delete the post, making myself look like a "coward" like Purely PMD called me in Abubaca's Winner Thread (although, again, I can now see why it appeared that way) or I can start a new thread where you can say your piece. That thread is unlocked now, and we can still handle it however you like.
In the end, a couple of things will remain:
* Photo-edited pics are prohibited.
* It states this in the rules at the front of each * Nomination Thread* (bullet point #5)
* I am fairly lenient on this rule - meaning it has to be pretty flagrant photo-editing in order for me to call someone on it. Frankly, a couple of your pics were pretty flagrant.
*If I don't enforce the rules, nobody will. And I have to be consistent in that endeavor.
*I'm still a fan of your car, and your photography. I really didn't mean anything personal calling you out.
* When in charge, you sometimes have to be the villain even when you don't want to be.
okay...so, that is the PM that I sent to Kurt (KMK454) regarding the issue of photo-edited pictures for COTM. That should bring everyone up to speed on what went down.
To be clear, I think PurelyPMD is off-base on me taking issue with a photo that was submitted by him, but also waaayyy off base on there being some sort of ulterior motive behind me singling him out...like I was in cahoots with one or more of the other members, or was looking to sabotage his car for some reason.
here is the PM i sent to Kurt KMK454 to inform him (and the other contestants) of their nominations. Kurt was the only one to receive a post script.
Congratulations!
Your car has been nominated for TGO's June 2017 Car of the month (COTM).
The **Voting Thread** is up and running in the Auto Detailing and Appearance forum. The Voting Thread is the place to state your case to be the COTM Winner by posting severalgood pics of your car (exterior, interior, engine, etc.) as well as technical & historical data about your Third Gen. You will be competing against three (3) other TGO members this month. The sooner the better on posting pics and info, thus making your case in the Voting Thread, as typically, much of the voting is done within the first few days. The voting poll will close on 5/31.
As a TGO Member, you get to vote in the contest and you CAN vote for your own car.
Good luck to you in the voting, and congratulations on being nominated.
Dave
COTM Editor
P.S.
On a personal note, your car is the one COTM "frequent flyer" that I do not get tired of seeing. IMO, your car has not gotten the love it deserves in the COTM voting threads.
For the record, the photo that was of most concern to me was this:
Now...I did state something to the effect of, "pictures must be accurate representations of your vehicle. that was probably a hasty choice of words. i did not mean to imply, nor had it crossed my mind that KMK454 was attempting to pass off misleading representations of his Camaro. A more precise choice of words would have been, "images have to appear realistic." In other words, if I walked outside, and the world looked like the above picture, I'd think somebody put LSD in my coffee.
I understand that many good photos have some level of enhancement. I am pretty lenient on this issue and when plausible would tend to err on the side of giving nominees the benefit of the doubt. However, when the line between photography and (someone may want to help me with the right term)image art is blurred, then it is my job to step in, and at the very least make mere mention, as in this case. seems like it'd be a little cowardly of me not to.
As per Kurt's request I will be closing this thread, as it has probably outlived its usefulness. however, I will start a new thread on the subject where we can constructively discuss this and any other COTM rules and expectations.
Clarification is always good. And the last thing that i want to do is spread confusion and discontent, turning people away (especially people who take excellent pictures of their cars) from COTM.
Sorry, Kurt. I know I waited to long to close this one down.
05-21-2017, 03:02 PM
If I lose by 1 vote, I'll sleep just fine.
