Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
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Re: Vortech J Trim build Winter 2015/2016
IAC is wired wrong.
Right now I have it wired as:
GM Megasquirt
C3 (GRN/BLK) "B LO" IAC-1B*
C4 (GRN/WHT) "B HI" IAC-2B
C5 (BLU/WHT) "A HI" IAC-1A
C6 (BLU/BLK) "A LO" IAC-2A*
I believe the correct wiring is:
GM Megasquirt
C5 (BLU/WHT) "A HI" IAC-1A
C6 (BLU/BLK) "A LO" IAC-1B
C3 (GRN/BLK) "B LO" IAC-2A
C4 (GRN/WHT) "B HI" IAC-2B
-- Joe
Right now I have it wired as:
GM Megasquirt
C3 (GRN/BLK) "B LO" IAC-1B*
C4 (GRN/WHT) "B HI" IAC-2B
C5 (BLU/WHT) "A HI" IAC-1A
C6 (BLU/BLK) "A LO" IAC-2A*
I believe the correct wiring is:
GM Megasquirt
C5 (BLU/WHT) "A HI" IAC-1A
C6 (BLU/BLK) "A LO" IAC-1B
C3 (GRN/BLK) "B LO" IAC-2A
C4 (GRN/WHT) "B HI" IAC-2B
-- Joe
Last edited by anesthes; 08-30-2016 at 10:10 PM.
#402
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Re: Vortech J Trim build Winter 2015/2016
Ok, Those were not the correct wiring either haha. I've finally got the IAC wired properly, and I re-did my '165 to Microsquirt how-to:
http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/projects/megasquirt/
So.. I've got closed loop idle configured, 170 step homing (park) position, 5 step increments, etc. It idled well but my headers started glowing a little which indicated to me that my idle PW was still erratic. (due to large injectors and low PW).
So I switched to alternating injection based on Junk's recommendation, and I re-did my VE table (actually needed more fuel, go figure ?). It seems to idle quite well now at around 900 RPM. Probably the best I've seen it run so far. No weird hunting crap I used to get on $58.
Now that's the good. The bad is that my engine bay is a freaking toaster oven. I probed around with my IR gun. I'm getting nearly 200 degrees on the body, heater box, firewall, wheel wells. The K&N filter was over 150 degrees, the silicone couplers and such the same 150-200 degrees. It's heating the air in the immediate area.
I probed around and pretty much anything besides the headers is stupid hot. I can intercool the crap out of it, but I still don't want my blower inlet temp that hot. All it's going to do is wipe out the seals in my Vortech. So I need a plan for that. I was thinking maybe clock the blower differently and try to do a 180* near the shock tower and pick the air up in the battery tray like Dan did. I dunno.. Might have to make blower mount bracket #4 haha
Next problem is, I'm idling around 180 degrees water temp, but my dash gauge shows like 240-250 degrees. When I shoot the IR thermo at the connector on the CTS (head) I get 336 degrees which is freaking insane. I had this exact same problem 2 years ago with the procharger and SLP headers. I can't bury the CTS any deeper into the head so I don't know. I don't have a spare NPT port on the intake to pick the gauge up. I wonder if I should just use an output from the MS. (can I even do that??)
My shop has some epic echo, plus I had the 24" big fan on to blow the fumes out the door. Once I align the front end I'll pull it out and get some better audio. I just swapped to some Coleman tube-style adjusters for the tie rods and jam nuts.
-- Joe
http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/projects/megasquirt/
So.. I've got closed loop idle configured, 170 step homing (park) position, 5 step increments, etc. It idled well but my headers started glowing a little which indicated to me that my idle PW was still erratic. (due to large injectors and low PW).
So I switched to alternating injection based on Junk's recommendation, and I re-did my VE table (actually needed more fuel, go figure ?). It seems to idle quite well now at around 900 RPM. Probably the best I've seen it run so far. No weird hunting crap I used to get on $58.
Now that's the good. The bad is that my engine bay is a freaking toaster oven. I probed around with my IR gun. I'm getting nearly 200 degrees on the body, heater box, firewall, wheel wells. The K&N filter was over 150 degrees, the silicone couplers and such the same 150-200 degrees. It's heating the air in the immediate area.
I probed around and pretty much anything besides the headers is stupid hot. I can intercool the crap out of it, but I still don't want my blower inlet temp that hot. All it's going to do is wipe out the seals in my Vortech. So I need a plan for that. I was thinking maybe clock the blower differently and try to do a 180* near the shock tower and pick the air up in the battery tray like Dan did. I dunno.. Might have to make blower mount bracket #4 haha
Next problem is, I'm idling around 180 degrees water temp, but my dash gauge shows like 240-250 degrees. When I shoot the IR thermo at the connector on the CTS (head) I get 336 degrees which is freaking insane. I had this exact same problem 2 years ago with the procharger and SLP headers. I can't bury the CTS any deeper into the head so I don't know. I don't have a spare NPT port on the intake to pick the gauge up. I wonder if I should just use an output from the MS. (can I even do that??)
My shop has some epic echo, plus I had the 24" big fan on to blow the fumes out the door. Once I align the front end I'll pull it out and get some better audio. I just swapped to some Coleman tube-style adjusters for the tie rods and jam nuts.
-- Joe
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
So it didn't make it to storage. Brakes wouldn't stop the car.
So after spending two days troubleshooting that, I swapped to 2.75" front calipers w/out low drag seals, and a 24MM master cylinder. I still have a small problem with my heim joint sticking and the pedal not completly returning, but it's bled and the brakes appear to function properly.
The IAT temps really got to me, so I decided to go back to a front mount intercooler like I had with the Procharger. So I got that bolted up and started the plumbing. I had to move the trans cooler to the bottom of the air dam, so the trans goes into the radiator and then into the cooler.
I have a ram-air 1 hood I need to prime and paint, and them I'm going to try and rig the suction side of my blower to draw air through the hood nostrils.
My IAC stepper circuit fried, but I hooked up with a guy out of Canada who makes these cool PWM IAC adapters for 4 wire GM IAC's, which is great because tuning %open is a lot easier than steps in my opinion. So once that comes in the mail I'll have a working IAC again.
Also moved the Wideband o2 to the Y-merge by the tail shaft, and re-welded some of my exhaust as I had a pin hole here and there.
So after spending two days troubleshooting that, I swapped to 2.75" front calipers w/out low drag seals, and a 24MM master cylinder. I still have a small problem with my heim joint sticking and the pedal not completly returning, but it's bled and the brakes appear to function properly.
The IAT temps really got to me, so I decided to go back to a front mount intercooler like I had with the Procharger. So I got that bolted up and started the plumbing. I had to move the trans cooler to the bottom of the air dam, so the trans goes into the radiator and then into the cooler.
I have a ram-air 1 hood I need to prime and paint, and them I'm going to try and rig the suction side of my blower to draw air through the hood nostrils.
My IAC stepper circuit fried, but I hooked up with a guy out of Canada who makes these cool PWM IAC adapters for 4 wire GM IAC's, which is great because tuning %open is a lot easier than steps in my opinion. So once that comes in the mail I'll have a working IAC again.
Also moved the Wideband o2 to the Y-merge by the tail shaft, and re-welded some of my exhaust as I had a pin hole here and there.
#406
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
I'd like to try and snake the IC pipe through the fender by the horns. I really don't wanna relocate my battery to the trunk.
-- Joe
#407
Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
I looked at what you were trying to do lol... The horns is why I ran mine by the fender on the pass side (no horns and I run a 75 series battery on pass side) then ran the pipe through the battery tray on the driver side. No way I could squeeze a 3" pipe near the horns.
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
Yea that's what I figured. Maybe throw a tiny dedicated fan on it and move it to a remote location?
I looked at what you were trying to do lol... The horns is why I ran mine by the fender on the pass side (no horns and I run a 75 series battery on pass side) then ran the pipe through the battery tray on the driver side. No way I could squeeze a 3" pipe near the horns.
I looked at what you were trying to do lol... The horns is why I ran mine by the fender on the pass side (no horns and I run a 75 series battery on pass side) then ran the pipe through the battery tray on the driver side. No way I could squeeze a 3" pipe near the horns.
-- Joe
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
My IAC stepper circuit fried, but I hooked up with a guy out of Canada who makes these cool PWM IAC adapters for 4 wire GM IAC's, which is great because tuning %open is a lot easier than steps in my opinion. So once that comes in the mail I'll have a working IAC again.
-- Joe
-- Joe
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
Also any more pics on how the FMIC is mounted? I see, so its like a inline adapter. Got a link?
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
The guy who makes them is in Canada. It was $75 shipped
Here is some pictures of the intercooler when I had the procharger. It's the same.
http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/p...s/intercooler/
-- Joe
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
Intresting, I wonder how much more reliable it is, Mine still loses its position once in a while and i have to cycle the key a few times to get it to bottom out.
That intercooler fits in there nice too. What brand and how well did it work?
That intercooler fits in there nice too. What brand and how well did it work?
Last edited by 86CamaroDan; 09-15-2016 at 09:46 AM.
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
-- Joe
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
Well please, keep us posted with how it works out. Im on the fence between buying a new GM IAC for 3X the price vs deleting the IAC all together.
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
I've found the majority of MS users are either using fast idle valves, or Ford PWM valves. Very few are using GM or Mopar steppers, and of the ones I talked to none were using closed loop IAC (which is a nightmare to get configured properly, and is the most complex stuff in the world). I wouldn't be surprised if there was a bug in the 'last known steps' vs 'reported steps' code.
-- Joe
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
yeah i gave up on trying to figure out closed loop. Go figure, i get in it this AM to go to work and its idling high. *Sigh*
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
I tried using known correct settings, 170 park position, etc. Still problematic.
-- Joe
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
GM IAC or aftermarket IAC? My buddy is running a 4 wire(The newer version) in is turbo saturn and hes somehow got it working with a GM one. I wonder if the aftermarket ones are just junk.
#421
Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
Procharger runs by the horns but its uses some funky rubber/silicone couplers so It goign to be pretty hard to mimic that without that specific molded peice. Or maybe they ask you to relocated the horns?
You guys have no many issues with the MS and aftermarket crap lol... Swap to a GM LS PCM/harness with HPT and call it a day lol.
Closed loop...hahaha.... Open loop FTW! I tried closed loop a few times... not a fan. Now I only do open loop and leave the crappy 02 sensors in as bungs. I bought cheap $30 for the pair 02s thinking if I dont get it to work I'm not out too much. They were fine around town and getting on it but once I got on the freeway cruising they went pig rich. I'm already rich in the cruising range but they made it like 9:1. I might revisit it once I verify I have no exhaust leaks.
Aftermarket IACs from my understanding are poo. At least for the LS. The IAC for my 5.3 was $100!!! I wasn't sure if mine was bad but I purchased a cheap one $15 and have it for testing down the road or if I really need it.
Good luck guys... more verification I prob won't ever use MS stuff.
You guys have no many issues with the MS and aftermarket crap lol... Swap to a GM LS PCM/harness with HPT and call it a day lol.
Closed loop...hahaha.... Open loop FTW! I tried closed loop a few times... not a fan. Now I only do open loop and leave the crappy 02 sensors in as bungs. I bought cheap $30 for the pair 02s thinking if I dont get it to work I'm not out too much. They were fine around town and getting on it but once I got on the freeway cruising they went pig rich. I'm already rich in the cruising range but they made it like 9:1. I might revisit it once I verify I have no exhaust leaks.
Aftermarket IACs from my understanding are poo. At least for the LS. The IAC for my 5.3 was $100!!! I wasn't sure if mine was bad but I purchased a cheap one $15 and have it for testing down the road or if I really need it.
Good luck guys... more verification I prob won't ever use MS stuff.
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
I have a new style (lt1, ls1) style on the shelf but when when it screws in the connector conflicts with the bottom of the trottle body.
I may go buy a new one this weekend, just cuz. I don't *need* IAC, but it's nice to have one.
-- Joe
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
You guys have no many issues with the MS and aftermarket crap lol... Swap to a GM LS PCM/harness with HPT and call it a day lol.
Closed loop...hahaha.... Open loop FTW! I tried closed loop a few times... not a fan. Now I only do open loop and leave the crappy 02 sensors in as bungs. I bought cheap $30 for the pair 02s thinking if I dont get it to work I'm not out too much. They were fine around town and getting on it but once I got on the freeway cruising they went pig rich. I'm already rich in the cruising range but they made it like 9:1. I might revisit it once I verify I have no exhaust leaks.
Aftermarket IACs from my understanding are poo. At least for the LS. The IAC for my 5.3 was $100!!! I wasn't sure if mine was bad but I purchased a cheap one $15 and have it for testing down the road or if I really need it.
Good luck guys... more verification I prob won't ever use MS stuff.
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
The other mode is 'closed loop' which simply provides RPM feedback. So rather than steps vs coolant temp, it's idle speed vs coolant temp. It also does the a/c idle up and all that fancy stuff.
'closed loop' in Megasquirt speak simply means a feature is using feedback.
Aftermarket IACs from my understanding are poo. At least for the LS. The IAC for my 5.3 was $100!!! I wasn't sure if mine was bad but I purchased a cheap one $15 and have it for testing down the road or if I really need it.
Good luck guys... more verification I prob won't ever use MS stuff.
MS isn't for everyone. There is way too many settings that an average user could completely screw up and be stranded on the side of the road, for example:
For most guys who want aftermarket but are not experts at engine controls, I'd push them to Holley. The only thing I don't like about Holley is the bizarre "lbs fuel" fuel map, but that's probably because I'm used to VE.
The MS was never intended to be used by everyone, and the developers simply couldn't give to sharts if people can't figure out how to use it. It's very powerful if you are an EFI geek. Not everyone wants that level of intimacy with their EFI.
I just like picking on Rob and getting his goat over the EBL. He reminds me of some of the Apple fan boys that work for me.
-- Joe
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
FYI Joe, The voltage compensation on those injectors isnt .140 like i told you, Its .055 - Ive been fighting a unsteady afr this whole time thinking its my heat soaking IAT and its not just that, Its the damn voltage compensation too. My bad for throwing bad info
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
You are running the same siemens deka 60's as me, right?
-- Joe
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
Your turn off time is .85
This is where I get fuzzy.
Let's say we want to deliver .5msec of fuel. If our open time is 1.14, we need to command the injector 1.64.
However, it takes .85 msec to close. So we're getting a minimum of .85 msec of fuel if we energize the solenoid, so that .5 msec of fuel actually is 1.35 msec.
How could the ECM deliver fuel properly without knowing both the open and close time, in addition to the latency (offset) ?
-- Joe
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
So.. I've got 5+ inches above my throttle body to the ram air 1 hood, so I think the most logical thing to do is build a ram air box that feeds the blower.
(yes that is child's clay)
I also added the PWM to stepper iac adapter to my ECM, so that should be all set.
The only problem now is, even with a new heim joint my brake pedal won't return the last 3/8" or so. Something is binding (you can hear it) unless I loosen the bolt. Kinda aggravating me. I think the proper solution might be some type of eyelit that has a female 3/8-24 RH so I can just mount it like the oem brake rod.
-- Joe
(yes that is child's clay)
I also added the PWM to stepper iac adapter to my ECM, so that should be all set.
The only problem now is, even with a new heim joint my brake pedal won't return the last 3/8" or so. Something is binding (you can hear it) unless I loosen the bolt. Kinda aggravating me. I think the proper solution might be some type of eyelit that has a female 3/8-24 RH so I can just mount it like the oem brake rod.
-- Joe
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
holy moly thats a mess. you are a software guy, right? lol
i ran a factory style iac with my ms2. it seemed to work correctly, but i had an issue where the idle would be high when i got back to the pits for whatever reason. after 20-30 minutes i could fire the car up and idle would be correct once again. i never looked into it.
i ran a factory style iac with my ms2. it seemed to work correctly, but i had an issue where the idle would be high when i got back to the pits for whatever reason. after 20-30 minutes i could fire the car up and idle would be correct once again. i never looked into it.
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
Yeah. EE was a minor. I can solder stuff together, but I'm not. neat. Everything ohms out ok though
I dunno. The PWM mod I think will work for me just fine.
I put the driveshaft loop in today.
I've got some brand new MAC subframe connectors I've been thinking about welding in, although, looking at them I'm not convinced they do much.
-- Joe
I put the driveshaft loop in today.
I've got some brand new MAC subframe connectors I've been thinking about welding in, although, looking at them I'm not convinced they do much.
-- Joe
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
Put the MAC subframe connectors in.
Also re-routed the air cleaner so it's right above the throttle body. I've got about an inch of clearance to the hood. So now I just need to build an insulated airbox to draw air in from the hood nostrils.
-- Joe
Also re-routed the air cleaner so it's right above the throttle body. I've got about an inch of clearance to the hood. So now I just need to build an insulated airbox to draw air in from the hood nostrils.
-- Joe
#433
Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
Originally Posted by anesthes
Also re-routed the air cleaner so it's right above the throttle body. I've got about an inch of clearance to the hood. So now I just need to build an insulated airbox to draw air in from the hood nostrils...
#438
Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
Are you sticking with the RA hood, or maybe going with a cowl induction in its' place?
Originally Posted by anesthes
Right now I have a K&N above the TB. I just need to swap the filter out for a box, or make a box around the filter.
Probably end up making something like this:
-- Joe
Probably end up making something like this:
-- Joe
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
So your turn on time is 1.14
Your turn off time is .85
This is where I get fuzzy.
Let's say we want to deliver .5msec of fuel. If our open time is 1.14, we need to command the injector 1.64.
However, it takes .85 msec to close. So we're getting a minimum of .85 msec of fuel if we energize the solenoid, so that .5 msec of fuel actually is 1.35 msec.
How could the ECM deliver fuel properly without knowing both the open and close time, in addition to the latency (offset) ?
-- Joe
Your turn off time is .85
This is where I get fuzzy.
Let's say we want to deliver .5msec of fuel. If our open time is 1.14, we need to command the injector 1.64.
However, it takes .85 msec to close. So we're getting a minimum of .85 msec of fuel if we energize the solenoid, so that .5 msec of fuel actually is 1.35 msec.
How could the ECM deliver fuel properly without knowing both the open and close time, in addition to the latency (offset) ?
-- Joe
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
The cowl is a harwood 3". I think the RA-1 hood looks better on the formula.
Honestly, I'm tempted to take the blower off and put it on my '75 and just run the firebird n/a, but.. Then it wouldn't be as fast haha.
-- Joe
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
Yeah, I never really understood how i was supposed to get a accurate number on it. Everybody on the MS facebook forum kept telling me to unplug the alt, and adjust it untill the afr didnt change from alt plugged in to alt charging. All i know is i dont have any afr issues with day time vs night now.
The code is very straight forward, but if I "fixed it" and released a patch that would be in violation of the license agreement. It's quite frustrating.
There is also some confusion over the reported pulsewidth, if it's accounting for the dead time or not. I gotta take a look at that when I have some time, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't account for dead time (meaning your fuel use usage calcs are off if you are using tunerstudio to report fuel economy).
-- Joe
#442
Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
Originally Posted by anesthes
I've got both in my other shop. Right now I have the RA-1 hood bolted on and it's got really nice clearance. My thoughts are to use the nostrils to feed the air cleaner (think C4 style box), and maybe cut the back open as a cowl to exhaust engine heat.
The cowl is a harwood 3". I think the RA-1 hood looks better on the formula.
Honestly, I'm tempted to take the blower off and put it on my '75 and just run the firebird n/a, but.. Then it wouldn't be as fast haha.
-- Joe
The cowl is a harwood 3". I think the RA-1 hood looks better on the formula.
Honestly, I'm tempted to take the blower off and put it on my '75 and just run the firebird n/a, but.. Then it wouldn't be as fast haha.
-- Joe
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
I say go for it! I'm going to dyno the 305 without the boost pressure while I wait for the right rebuild kit to show up at my door, so until then the long tubes are going back on and I am going to see just what the 305 with everything I did will do. Would like to see what your Formy will do naturally aspirated myself. Slap that blower on the '75 Corvette. Man I love that style, w/those the "coca cola bottle" style fenders. Last year for the 454 too..
I probably could have gotten away with a V3-S trim though to meet my power goal (600hp) rather than the T-trim.
If I put the blower on the vette though I'd have to do a new motor unless I put the whole engine in the vette and did the 5.3 in the Formula.
-- Joe
#444
Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
Well 480 is a lot more than 300 lol, that's what mine puts out. 480 is nothing to sneeze at. My 95 C4 bone stick ran high 13's when I took it to the track last year, the GTA needs to best that without the turbo and only on motor...
Edit: just realized you said naturally aspirated, I calculated mine at a tad under 300 to the tire during my datalog. I'm intrigued to get it to the track now, is there a track near you Joe...?
Edit: just realized you said naturally aspirated, I calculated mine at a tad under 300 to the tire during my datalog. I'm intrigued to get it to the track now, is there a track near you Joe...?
I think my 412 should make around 480hp naturally aspirated. That's not terrible for a street car, but not impressive either.
I probably could have gotten away with a V3-S trim though to meet my power goal (600hp) rather than the T-trim.
If I put the blower on the vette though I'd have to do a new motor unless I put the whole engine in the vette and did the 5.3 in the Formula.
-- Joe
I probably could have gotten away with a V3-S trim though to meet my power goal (600hp) rather than the T-trim.
If I put the blower on the vette though I'd have to do a new motor unless I put the whole engine in the vette and did the 5.3 in the Formula.
-- Joe
Last edited by Street Lethal; 09-26-2016 at 10:53 AM.
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
Well 480 is a lot more than 300 lol, that's what mine puts out. 480 is nothing to sneeze at. My 95 C4 bone stick ran high 13's when I took it to the track last year, the GTA needs to best that without the turbo and only on motor...
Edit: just realized you said naturally aspirated, I calculated mine at a tad under 300 to the tire during my datalog. I'm intrigued to get it to the track now, is there a track near you Joe...?
Edit: just realized you said naturally aspirated, I calculated mine at a tad under 300 to the tire during my datalog. I'm intrigued to get it to the track now, is there a track near you Joe...?
New England Dragway is about 20 minutes away. I have a trailer and everything. Our track is a legit NHRA national event track, and tech is black and white. We can't get away with the stuff you guys get away with (running 8 and 9 second et's on 11 second cars). The tech inspection is a legit tech inspection, not a wink and a nod. I've broken out on a pass, and have been suspended for running a faster ET than the car was inspected for.
I'm just not sure what I want to do with the car. Like performance wise, I'd like it to be a 130mph street car. But I'm not really interested in bracket racing anymore, and haven't been in over a decade. I may run it a few times on a street night, but that's all.
If I ever got back into competitive racing, It would be a rail car not a production car.
-- Joe
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
Joe, Myself and a few buddies are gonna be up there the 22nd of next month for the day if your intrested.
#447
Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
Originally Posted by 86CamaroDan
Joe, Myself and a few buddies are gonna be up there the 22nd of next month for the day if your intrested.
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Re: Vortech T Trim build Winter 2015/2016
Yeah, should be intresting. That and im gonna need a hand pushing it home when i break the 9 bolt like a box of tooth picks.