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Worth it believe me. I made one in like 15min with left over junk aluminum heat shield I pulled off a car years ago. I've heard you loose about 30hp from the header heat heating the inlet pipe and filter area on our setups. Coating the headers is said to make a huge difference. When I pull my heads in gona pull the headers to get coated.
I've seen 20* temp drops on the tubing itself with an IR gun after putting the heats shield there.
Fired it up, water pump/alt belt shredded. Water pump pulley is like frozen against the water pump.. I'm not sure if the pump case expanded when I put the AN fitting in the top, or the chinese pulley just did.. something. but anyway water pump is frozen.
Here is 30 seconds of cold idle w/out alt and water pump.
Damn. Maybe a bearing seized up? I don't remember what your running their but what brand pump? Pulley? Wat was the block filled with and how long?
Sounds good! Nice to hear it alive!
It's a brand new delco corvette pump. (shot). Chinese pulley. The pulley is actually firmly against the case. The last thing I did was change the hoses out for AN lines and tighened the top fitting. So. Either I over tightened it and spread the case, or .. I don't know.
But I've gotta unbolt the pulley to see if the pump spins.
It's 50/50 antifreeze.
Oh, and that BOV only opens when I snap the throttle. You can actually hear it whissle and then close. I might end up swapping that out for something else.
if it is adjustable, use a mityvac on it to see what vacuum needs to be for it to open. might be set too high. i had a similar issue with a vortech mondo valve. engine didnt make enough vacuum to open it at idle. (i think thats right.... i cant hardly remember now)
if it is adjustable, use a mityvac on it to see what vacuum needs to be for it to open. might be set too high. i had a similar issue with a vortech mondo valve. engine didnt make enough vacuum to open it at idle. (i think thats right.... i cant hardly remember now)
I tried that. I pumped the little sucker to like 30hg and it still didn't open.
It has a "hard/soft" screw at the top. I turned it to soft, which I'm assuming means open easier. This made it open at least on a throttle snap, but no amount of vac will hold it open at idle. It appears to need the combination of a huge pressure spike (throttle slamming shut) and vac to open it.
Oh, and here is a public safety announcement. Say you start the car, and you hear a squealing noise but don't notice your water pump pulley not spinning right away. You then shut your car off after 45 seconds or so. Don't grab the water pump pulley with your hand. Holy crap that was hot.
I tried that. I pumped the little sucker to like 30hg and it still didn't open.
It has a "hard/soft" screw at the top. I turned it to soft, which I'm assuming means open easier. This made it open at least on a throttle snap, but no amount of vac will hold it open at idle. It appears to need the combination of a huge pressure spike (throttle slamming shut) and vac to open it.
Oh, and here is a public safety announcement. Say you start the car, and you hear a squealing noise but don't notice your water pump pulley not spinning right away. You then shut your car off after 45 seconds or so. Don't grab the water pump pulley with your hand. Holy crap that was hot.
-- Joe
if im not mistaken u are using a greddy blow off valve
its designed not to open at idle , u need a real bypass valve or something like an rfl bov with the spring removed, or a super light spring installed
It's a brand new delco corvette pump. (shot). Chinese pulley. The pulley is actually firmly against the case. The last thing I did was change the hoses out for AN lines and tighened the top fitting. So. Either I over tightened it and spread the case, or .. I don't know.
But I've gotta unbolt the pulley to see if the pump spins.
It's 50/50 antifreeze.
Oh, and that BOV only opens when I snap the throttle. You can actually hear it whissle and then close. I might end up swapping that out for something else.
-- Joe
Yep, u might need to clearance the pump or swap the pulley or even cheaper push the pulley out with a waterpump pulley spacer but then you might need to shim it all out so the belt lines up.
Yea the BOV is what I brought up before. Should be open at idle and def open when you let off the throttle or high vac.
This is why Tial recommends the 2-3" spring in the BOVs for superchargers. So it's open till right before you would start to build boost and closes and the. Opens really fast. I personally tried a 4" spring which netted me 10-15" opening/closing and found it worked well but annoying on almost any throttle under 30%. Then I swapped a 15-17" spring and it's open at idle but closes much sooner so it's making much less noise around town. My 2nd BOV uses the supplied spring and it's closed at 19" and opens at 20-21" which is only
Off throttle/cruising.
Get a BOV that allows it to open like 5" or so under your idle vac. Not as annoying on the street but will be open at idle and quickly when ur off throttle. Technically the lower the spring pressure the quicker it builds boost as it's almost instant being so close to 0".
I bet the spring is too powerful. Even with the adjustment out. You can cut a coil off or see if you got another spring. I buy the same BOVs/wastegates from wyntom and I had a 4psi wastegates spring I swapped for the original BOV spring and that's how I got the lower opening.
You can get the knock off BOV Tials that come with 3 springs for tuning.
Yep, u might need to clearance the pump or swap the pulley or even cheaper push the pulley out with a waterpump pulley spacer but then you might need to shim it all out so the belt lines up.
I think I cracked the pump. It's aluminum, and I think I tightened the AN adapter fitting too much and the casting bulged. Oh well.
I'm already using pump mount spacers (1/4") because the pump was pressing on my timing cover, so as it is my belt alignment kinda sucks.
As for the BOV, I'll probably swap it. It was something I had on the shelf anyway. I used to run a stock DSM BOV and it worked just peachy, but like Project89 pointed out there are $30 valves on ebay now that I'm sure will work just fine.
I bet the spring is too powerful. Even with the adjustment out. You can cut a coil off or see if you got another spring. I buy the same BOVs/wastegates from wyntom and I had a 4psi wastegates spring I swapped for the original BOV spring and that's how I got the lower opening.
You can get the knock off BOV Tials that come with 3 springs for tuning.
yeah even on cars that pull 14+ inches of vacum at idle i end up cutting the springs in atleast half , i bet u joe would need the spring cut so it barley puts pressure on the valve seat when holding it closed
the tial knockoffs are nice as well but i like the sound of the rfl better ( really fing loud) is what the name rfl stands for btw
u can trim the spring so it wil open at idle , only 1 moving part in the entire thing
aluminum body
brass valve
and a spring
That's a piston style and while nice bc they don't have diaphragms they rely on Orings to seal the top there is no oring at the bottom to seal it and they are alittle more reliable than diaphragms bc the can rip over time. I run one like the above but much better quality and a diaphragm type and don't see any major differences between the 2 operationally.
The one pointed out is a Type H- RFL which stands for Really ****ing Loud. And it is just that. Smaller Dia's also cause the pitch of escaping air to be much louder/higher pitch and annoying. Also brass piston style are only available in smaller sizes due to weight etc. get. Yourself a 44mm-50mm and be done with it.
That's a piston style and while nice bc they don't have diaphragms they rely on Orings to seal the top there is no oring at the bottom to seal it and they are alittle more reliable than diaphragms bc the can rip over time. I run one like the above but much better quality and a diaphragm type and don't see any major differences between the 2 operationally.
The one pointed out is a Type H- RFL which stands for Really ****ing Loud. And it is just that. Smaller Dia's also cause the pitch of escaping air to be much louder/higher pitch and annoying. Also brass piston style are only available in smaller sizes due to weight etc. get. Yourself a 44mm-50mm and be done with it.
thats odd mine has an oring to seal the bottom onto the flange , maybe the wyntom ones dont have it
thats odd mine has an o-ring to seal the bottom onto the flange , maybe the wyntom ones don't have it
I don't run the wyntomn type H. Its the USA made one that came wiht my supercharger. Made by Torqstorm. Its a larger 1.5" DIA opening as most of the cheap ebay ones are 1"-1.25". I dont remember exactly but I know I disassembled it to see if I could run a different spring for opening pressures and lubbed it all up. When the piston opens their is no Oring attached to the piston that would seal against the bottom part (before the openings to atmosphere) Their might have been seals in the bottom that I didn't see or don't remember but def not on the piston itself. It had dual Orings at the top for sealing the top area from boost/vacuum. I didn't take pics when I had it apart which is odd. This one is located between the IC and TB.
I run a 2nd BOV between the SC and IC and thats a wyntomn 44mm which is a diaphragm style. This one is much quieter than the type H and I feel it has alot to do with the DIA. as they are the same design minus the type H being a piston style. They are both open to atmosphere 360*
I don't run the wyntomn type H. Its the USA made one that came wiht my supercharger. Made by Torqstorm. Its a larger 1.5" DIA opening as most of the cheap ebay ones are 1"-1.25". I dont remember exactly but I know I disassembled it to see if I could run a different spring for opening pressures and lubbed it all up. When the piston opens their is no Oring attached to the piston that would seal against the bottom part (before the openings to atmosphere) Their might have been seals in the bottom that I didn't see or don't remember but def not on the piston itself. It had dual Orings at the top for sealing the top area from boost/vacuum. I didn't take pics when I had it apart which is odd. This one is located between the IC and TB.
I run a 2nd BOV between the SC and IC and thats a wyntomn 44mm which is a diaphragm style. This one is much quieter than the type H and I feel it has alot to do with the DIA. as they are the same design minus the type H being a piston style. They are both open to atmosphere 360*
Do you have a bunch of pictures of your Torqstorm? I'm curious how much has changed since they started making them. I think they used to be called XB1A or something like that.
Anyhow, here is the collision between the pulley and the pump. I think I see a small crack but won't know until I take the pulley off.
The water pump is 1/4" forward of the alt, and the belt was super tight. I wonder if the belt bent the pulley?
Type H, I would swap to a 2nd 44mm but this one had already been fabbed and has 2 bungs welded which I use for sensors and I like the way it looks lol.
Do you have a bunch of pictures of your Torqstorm? I'm curious how much has changed since they started making them. I think they used to be called XB1A or something like that.
Anyhow, here is the collision between the pulley and the pump. I think I see a small crack but won't know until I take the pulley off.
The water pump is 1/4" forward of the alt, and the belt was super tight. I wonder if the belt bent the pulley?
-- Joe
Yea I got pics of it during the install and finished. They have made a few updates. The don't make the original BOV anymore and its now the one I have (non recirculating) they dont offer recirculating setups anymore. Now they offer a larger BOV called the Mega or something which looks nice and would love to step up but I would need a whole new charge Pipe and I'm sure it would run a few hundred. Since they haven't created a higher output headunit I would assume they figured out from input from customers that the 38mm BOV they include isn't large enough and produces a crazy amount of noise when open.
Yea thats touching lol. Have you pulled the fitting and didn't scew it in as hard? I would take a grinder to the surface and take alittle off. But that close distance doesn't make me comfortable to run it for a long period of time and would be looking for a permanent fix.
1/4" seems like alot. I'm sure its possible for the belt to bend a pulley but it would have to be crazy tight and the pulley would have to be flimsy. I would be looking for a better pulley, more space and get it lined up lol which you already know.
Joe I just watched the video, and to paraphrase a line from Conan the Barbarian... "Hah, Krom laughs at your water pump problems" lol. I'll take that water pump issue over another cracked flexplate any day of the week, which I am dealing with, again. Anyways, I didn't read all of these responses, just clarify it all for me will ya; from what I read, you are running an aluminum Corvette water pump with a Chinese water pump pulley sharing a belt with the alternator, correct? The water pump pulley bent and allegedly seized the water pump with the alternator pulley remaining fine, correct? Does the water pump spin freely with no pulley or belt on it? Does the alternator spin freely with no belt on it? If so, it sounds like the Chinese water pump pulley caused the issue, because if the belt were that tight, yo would have messed up the alternator too. As for the BOV, why are you looking to change it out? What is your engine vacuum during idle...?
Joe I just watched the video, and to paraphrase a line from Conan the Barbarian... "Hah, Krom laughs at your water pump problems" lol. I'll take that water pump issue over another cracked flexplate any day of the week, which I am dealing with, again. Anyways, I didn't read all of these responses, just clarify it all for me will ya; from what I read, you are running an aluminum Corvette water pump with a Chinese water pump pulley sharing a belt with the alternator, correct? The water pump pulley bent and allegedly seized the water pump with the alternator pulley remaining fine, correct? Does the water pump spin freely with no pulley or belt on it? Does the alternator spin freely with no belt on it? If so, it sounds like the Chinese water pump pulley caused the issue, because if the belt were that tight, yo would have messed up the alternator too. As for the BOV, why are you looking to change it out? What is your engine vacuum during idle...?
I have not had a chance to troubleshoot it. I got the car fired up late last night, found the problem, shot you a quick video and went in the house.
I won't be able to look at it again for a few days probably, but to summarize. Yep corvette aluminum pump, chinese pulley. It *was* running fine the other day. The only thing i changed was the fitting in the top of the water pump, and I think i see a hairline crack. BUT I also changed the belt the day I was running it, and it's tight as crap. So maybe it bent the pulley.
As far as the BOV, it's a greddy Type S from a twin turbo 350z project. I had it so I used it, but it doesn't open under vac. My logs indicate I idle around 58-60 kpa, so what's that like 17 hg ? That's plenty.
NX276HR cam on a 412 is quite tame. Motor is like done by 5500 rpm.
As far as the BOV, it's a greddy Type S from a twin turbo 350z project. I had it so I used it, but it doesn't open under vac. My logs indicate I idle around 58-60 kpa, so what's that like 17 hg ? That's plenty.
Ahh, so you're looking for the more traditional By-Pass valve, you want it open during idle.
35ish KPA is 19.4" as thats where I idle at. 58-60kpa - 17.17-17.8"
Both of you are correct. Opening the BOV at idle puts less strain on the compressor/TB and since SC can make pressure at idle they pressurized air is creating heat which will heat soak everything quicker. So You would want the BOV open at idle and right before positive pressure would be created. Otherwise you run the risk of compressor surge.
Turbos BOV requirements is that its closed at idle vac, so if you create 17" at idle you want a 17-19" spring. A supercharger is the opposite. But opened around town makes the constant street sweeper noise which while is displeasing to your ears and everyone else is better for the motor/supercharger. Increasing the spring pressure so its still open at idle but closes in a higher vacuum will balance the noise created on the street but at the cost of still creating pressure surge when it closes. At idle the pre IC BOV is open and their is a good bit of air being pushed out.
I know mine are stagged, pre IC opens at 15" and closes around 10" the other opens around 21" and closes around 19". When both are closed I can hear/feel very small amount of compressor surge or what I think it is.
two schools of thought - running a BOV that doesn't vent at idle can clean up a lopey cam and fix stumbles.
But a BOV that vents at idle could lead to lower IATs.
-- Joe
most traditional bov's take a spike in pressure under the valve coupled with a spike in vacum on the top to open , so u actually need a spring rate that is softer then what u pull at idle vacum wise, but this may cause to it leaking under big boost its a fine line trying to make a turbo bov work for a supercharger
I don't run the wyntomn type H. Its the USA made one that came wiht my supercharger. Made by Torqstorm. Its a larger 1.5" DIA opening as most of the cheap ebay ones are 1"-1.25". I dont remember exactly but I know I disassembled it to see if I could run a different spring for opening pressures and lubbed it all up.
1.25 inch , and ok i misunderstood what u were saying , yeah no oring on the bottom of the valve inside the bov , it jjust kind of seals u like a typical valve does on a valve seat though , there is a lil leakage in the piston style type valves but its very very tiny , a good coating of white grease on the actual valve inside the body of the bov is both good for the valve and also tightens up the clearances on the inside for less leakage
Went home and spent 20 minutes disecting the problem.
The water pump cracked when I overtightened it, an the face bulged. There must have been like .010" or less clearance because it crashed into the pulley.
So I'll have to order a water pump.. Now I'm on the fence though, because I had to shim the water pump to clear the timing cover (heavy cloyes 2pc w/ cam button). I wonder if I can get one that has more clearance behind it but is still a SWP.
If I go to a long water pump, which I have on the shelf I'll have to change my pulleys and fabricate a alt/ps mount. Which would suck nuts.
I'd rather pay a little more for a special water pump. I could go electric but for a street car that might be dumb.
Yup, I figured that out when dissecting the BOV. I've gone as far as to lap the BOV flange to get better seal.
Anesthes... I would never run a electric pump on the street, just me. They are great for the strip but find they can't keep up on the street depending how you drive. They flow more compared to a mechanical at low Rpms but pretty sure mechanicals can flow like 100gph fairly easily and don't take muchho to turn compared to the load an electric pump puts on the alternator. That sucks tho to bust a new pump.
I've used flow kooler pumps and like them a lot. Billet aluminum impellers flow more at idle and don't cavitate at higher Rpms.
I ordered a new swp from skip white, it's got smaller bolts in the rear so it should clear my 2pc clyoyes cover without having to use the spacers.
I'm gonna toss the pulley on my lathe and clean up the back a little.
I also ordered an aluminum alternator bracket with a heim joint adjuster, and took the vette bracket off. (which had the big black rod that connects to the water pump).
I need to pick up some 3/8" studs. If everything shows up this week I should be able to get it back together Saturday or Monday.
If i were you i would stay far away from ebay bypass/blow off valves. I got two of them and both were junk (leaking moderate vacuum) I went with a ZZP bypass valve, Comes with 3 springs and a shim. Im using the middle spring and it flows air at idle, and snaps shut/holds enough boost to my liking. Doesnt mount with a flange though, So i used a 3"/3" silicone coupler with a 1" nipple comming off of it. Curious to stuff the stiff spring in, as i did notice a increase in maximum boost pressure, i assume from it closing sooner? http://zzperformance.com/3800/turbo-...***-valve.html
I wouldnt call that adequate for a larger SBC with supercahrger for venting purposes. 1" DIA is not enough... should be looking at a 44-50mm. It looks like an aftermarket Bosch... and what quality are you getting for $40? I won't run 99% of the ebay BOVs or WG's... I stick with wyntom which is very good quality for the price and costs about $45-60.
Maximum boost pressure does not occur due to the BOV closing sooner... on a supercharger boost is related to RPM, Supercharger doesn't care if the motor is coasting or WOT at 4500rpms its still spinning the same rpm and thus the same boost. Due to this if boost pressure goes from 10-11psi at 4500rpms the only cause can be a boost leak that was fixed as boost output doesn't increase if rpm doesn't change.
I wouldnt call that adequate for a larger SBC with supercahrger for venting purposes. 1" DIA is not enough... should be looking at a 44-50mm. It looks like an aftermarket Bosch... and what quality are you getting for $40? I won't run 99% of the ebay BOVs or WG's... I stick with wyntom which is very good quality for the price and costs about $45-60.
Maximum boost pressure does not occur due to the BOV closing sooner... on a supercharger boost is related to RPM, Supercharger doesn't care if the motor is coasting or WOT at 4500rpms its still spinning the same rpm and thus the same boost. Due to this if boost pressure goes from 10-11psi at 4500rpms the only cause can be a boost leak that was fixed as boost output doesn't increase if rpm doesn't change.
Well i dont get any flutter out of it, it vents at idle, and it holds boost when i want it. The quality on it is MUCH better. Decently thick aluminum case, thats threaded on the top, Thick diaphram, pre lubricated with a big old oring at the top. Im very happy with it, especially for $40. and it doesnt leak ANY vacuum.
As far as the pressure thing, im not sure at what point that spring gets overwhelmed by boost at, but now that i think about it, if theres boost inside the intake, theres boost on the back side of the valve too so i guess it would be hard to open
Well i dont get any flutter out of it, it vents at idle, and it holds boost when i want it. The quality on it is MUCH better. Decently thick aluminum case, thats threaded on the top, Thick diaphram, pre lubricated with a big old oring at the top. Im very happy with it, especially for $40. and it doesnt leak ANY vacuum.
As far as the pressure thing, im not sure at what point that spring gets overwhelmed by boost at, but now that i think about it, if theres boost inside the intake, theres boost on the back side of the valve too so i guess it would be hard to open
Flutter might not be noticeable. It also depends on how much "air" is in the system as well. Lots of tubing/IC etc will have alot more pressure to relieve. The OP's system is very short so a smaller BOV might be fine. But Large BOV is always best... u want the boost/air to be relieved as quickly as possible.
Boost should never overwhelm the spring. Spring is pressure on top of boost. and boost is on both sides of spring. remove boost from vacuum port and if boost is higher than the spring then it will open but that also means it wont open when you let off as the spring pressure will always be keeping it closed.
Hope your running low boost and keeping an eye on IATs. Your setup would be super easy to run a FMIC, 1 Ubend will get you to the driver battery tray area. Then run another Ubend to get the filter away from the headers.
Hope your running low boost and keeping an eye on IATs. Your setup would be super easy to run a FMIC, 1 Ubend will get you to the driver battery tray area. Then run another Ubend to get the filter away from the headers.
He can clock the housing toward the fender to run a FMIC.
I wouldn't bother with his compressor though, that V3 is a very efficient compressor. He'd have to really over spin it to get into trouble.
I ran a V1 S which produced more boost and is a little less efficient at max impeller speed for years without any intercooler. (Post #310)
I'm starting to think this car is a democrat. It takes all my money and gives me nothing in return.
So I put the new water pump in, but the new alt bracket causes the alt to crash into the valve cover. I can't even adjust it far enough out cuz the adjuster isn't long enough. wtf.
OK, I re-clocked the alt and pushed it firm against the valve cover. I was able to get the heim joint on, pry the belt over the pulley. Took a 53.0" belt. I adjusted it a little so it's about 1/4" away from the valve cover, but the heim joint must be caught by only a few threads. I'll try to get a longer sleeve.
Good ole Democratic valve covers, Bill is on the left and Hillary is on the right. Give Hillary a good whack with a hammer to get her out of the way, and maybe even knock some sense into her lol. Karma got them though, oh man did it ever. They both appear to suffer from dementia, Bill looks like the old man from Poltergeist 2 lol, and Hillary is just lost in the moment, but it seems to be every moment lol. Their focus on Money got the best of them, look what it did to them, only a few years left to really enjoy it, but the question is do they, or will they. Sad life being a politician in today's rigged system...
I have friends who have family still going through the process of becoming citizens from Europe, going on ten years now, and they are waiting patiently. It's a slap in the face to them when Obama and Hillary want to "push" for their beloved illegals. What people will do just for that vote is amazing, while the natural born citizens suffer. Hey what does it matter to them, they have enough money to live off of the interest accumulating six figures a year on interest alone, so what the hell do they care that jobs are outsourced, companies are leaving, technology is eliminating jobs, but yeah sure, more illegal immigrants, the more the merrier. It's no coincidence that Trump is dominating despite what the media polls tell you, he is a shoe in, believe it...
Joe is the water pump vrib or serpentine? I know one time I installed my pulley on with too long of a threaded bolt. They contact the case as to where they bolt up. It threads right through to the wp housing. Stopped the pully dead in its tracks.
Joe is the water pump vrib or serpentine? I know one time I installed my pulley on with too long of a threaded bolt. They contact the case as to where they bolt up. It threads right through to the wp housing. Stopped the pully dead in its tracks.
Vrib, short water pump. I'm using little taper head screws that came with the pulley, they have minimal thread engagement.
The previous water pump, on the top threaded port it was very thick and when I tightened the fitting it cracked and bulged and hit the pulley.
08-17-2016, 09:18 PM
