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Side note. My last log showed 19-20* of timing at 4000-5000rpms and 7-8psi of boost and the car felt strong. Not sure why it randomly decides to pull timing with no knock etc.
I decided to get a cheap glowshift dual intake temp gauge... this is a $100 gauge with dual IAT sensors calibrated for the gauge. I'm going to mount one in the charge pipe 4" after the meth nozzle and 18" before the TB (bung already there). Then I'm either going to drill and tap my IC (inlet) for the other sensor or have to get a 3/8"NPT bung and weld it in my BOV adapter pipe (worried with the BOV open 80% of the time might affect the readings. This way I can monitor the drop in temp pre IC to after the meth injection.
I'm also looking into the aeroforce interceptor gauges for adding and tapping into the OBD2 ports.
Side note. My last log showed 19-20* of timing at 4000-5000rpms and 7-8psi of boost and the car felt strong. Not sure why it randomly decides to pull timing with no knock etc.
I decided to get a cheap glowshift dual intake temp gauge... this is a $100 gauge with dual IAT sensors calibrated for the gauge. I'm going to mount one in the charge pipe 4" after the meth nozzle and 18" before the TB (bung already there). Then I'm either going to drill and tap my IC (inlet) for the other sensor or have to get a 3/8"NPT bung and weld it in my BOV adapter pipe (worried with the BOV open 80% of the time might affect the readings. This way I can monitor the drop in temp pre IC to after the meth injection.
I'm also looking into the aeroforce interceptor gauges for adding and tapping into the OBD2 ports.
Dont bother with those 3/8 iat sensors. The gauge will never be even close to correct. K thermocouple is the best route.
Dont bother with those 3/8 iat sensors. The gauge will never be even close to correct. K thermocouple is the best route.
I have a $200 EGT gauge with a K thermocouple and isn't measuring $hit. I can't even use it as it basically said 102*F the entire length of my drive but the IAT was fluctuating between 80-100*F in my log. I wont be buying into that again.
I did that already and it pool'd in the intake and bogged the motor down.
Because your running an 80w/20 meth mix. Water doesnt burn. Meth cools and burns. 18-20 is a nice safe total timing number pump gas. Its tough to comment on your setup because I runs a screw supercharger. Im running 18gph on a 302 cubic inch. Ill be honest I dont like snow stuff as they rate there nozzles at ccs. Most others are gph. There kits are overpriced for what you get and you have to buy all there stuff. Devils own makes the finest spraying nozzles. But I like the AIS kit the best, which is prometh now. That said I question your bov setup. When I ran the procharger it was dumped from the pipe after supercharger back into the inlet. As is my screw supercharger now. You must be blowing mist into the engine bay comming off boost. Buy a 50/50 mix and run that one tankload. Screw chargers run the hottest of any superchargers and on a 90+day I cant get it around 120-130 under boost, and Im running about 5lbs more than your setup. My biggest crux though is that I could add more mix. But the tune doesnt compensate like a holley hp would. When you up the nozzle your factory ecu wont compensate. So I change the mix ratio, but you can only go so far. For example i run 50/50 on a 14gph nozzle. I run 60/40 or 70/30 with an 18gph. Ive run a 25gph but it didnt bog because of to much mix. It bogged because it supposed to be 11.5 to 1 af ratio. And on the dyno when I did the 25gph it couldnt read and lower than 10to1 af ratio as the gauge was pegged. And I dropped 40hp. But the iats dropped like a rock. Starting iat was 150 or so. With a 25gph it dropped under 80° and keep going on a 90°day. I run a sct chip. A ecu that compensates the injector to keep stated af ratio like the holley would be benificial in this situation. For reference, for every 10° drop in intake air temp you gain 1%hp. That is in general as it doesnt take into account timing. Decent gains can be had.
Yes, my mix means I shouldn't be throwing the largest nozzles I have at it clearly. 10gph is like 1000cc. Snow and AEM rate their nozzles in cc/ml.
BOV on mine actually decreased my IAT temps. I run 2 BOV's now, a 44mm between the SC and the IC inlet, and then the original 38mm between the IC outlet and the TB. The meth nozzles are placed about 5" from the BOV. Each BOV has a different opening rate. The 44mm Pre IC BOV opens at 15" of vacuum and fully seals up by 10" or so. The 38mm BOV between the IC and TB is closed until about 20-21" of vacuum which it opens up. Basically only when I let off the gas and in full decel. At that time meth is not being injected and thus would not be expelled through the open BOV. I have no markings under the hood to suggest that I have the fluid/mist coming out. when wiper fluid dries it leaves a residue mark.
Superchargers like mine are found to work best with the BOV between the SC and IC, thus preventing heated air being pushed through the IC creating unwanted heatsoaking when the air is just expelled to atmosphere. Most SC BOV manufactures will want a 2-3" spring installed so the BOV is open at idle as they create positive pressure even at idle. And as suggested releasing the are Pre IC will actually decrease IAT temps until your in boost/BOV closes.
The worst type of BOV is a recirculating one, the only reason to run one is if your BOV is located after a MAF sensor (needs to recirculate the measured air) or if you want i to be quiet (OEM application) But by recirculating the BOV air you compound the IAT temps and SC efficiency does downhill. Remember the air is already heated as its compressed, then you blow it off and recirculate this hot compressed air back into the SC inlet thus heating the whole setup even more. Best route is always to vent the BOV to atmosphere for this very purpose... and on an SD tuned application their is no reason not to vent to atmosphere.
I'm sure injecting 50/50 mix is prob best and I will get their. Need to figure it out before I make the jump to 20% more meth. My IATs the other day only got to like 88*F and maybe broke 100*F when I was cruising and not in boost and just heating it up.
Glow shift gauge came in the mail today. Decided to pull the EGT gauge as it was useless. Wired in the dual intake temp glow shift gauge and put the cold side sensor 4-5" after the meth nozzle. The hot side sensor I decided to install in the BOV adapter tube as if I screwed it up I could replace the adapter tube with another one I have. Drilled and tapped the aluminum tube and done.
Turn the key on and the gauge is alive, both sensors reading the exact same temp. Weather app says its 73*F outside and sure enough he gauge shows that as well so I'm gona assume they are pretty accurate. Glow shift said +- 1*F accuracy and a fast refresh rate. Sensors looked decent with the same style IAT probe as the OEM LS Truck MAF had. The hot sensor actually read 2-3* from me just holding it in my hand and a quick shot with a heat gun showed quick increase in temp. Only concern is sensor placement as each is directly across from a BOV opening. Need to verify oil pressure accuracy of electric gauge with my mechanical and then will take it out for a test drive and see what the IATS look like. If I don't see a large drop in IAT temps with meth injection I'll drop 2 bottles of HEET in the wiper fluid for a 50-70% meth mix and see what it does.
This is the BOV that's pre IC, so it's between the Supercharger and intercooler. This is the hot sensor location or max IAT.
Gauge is showing about 75*F this was 2 hrs ago and now it's 73*F outside so I'm sure it was warmer out earlier. Both needles are overlayed on top of each other showing the same temp
Well idk what you are looking to do. Here it is plain and simple. Iats are hot because you dont have enough methanol / water injection. They are not where you want them because you use washer fluid and now bottles of heet. You have to understand you are using a mix you think is correct because the internet says so. You are going off that. Its the truth. Washer fluid is not what you think it may be. You assume its 30% methanol and it may or may not be in one bottle. You think you need a new gauge. Ive been down that road. These sensors are not accurate wet and or in that environment . Truth is you will not find a "correct" accurate reliable gauge under a $100 dollars, and not $200 either. The "correct" spot for a sensor is not where you are putting them. But you have no other choice because the manifold you cant. You are running under a 1000ccs. You mentioned 10gph. Its not enough liquid to cool. Plus your using a mix that is based off internet speculation. You mentioned your getting full timing then your not. Maybe the ecu is picking up detonation. I know you got those statements of adding 2 bottles of heet to washer fluid off the internet. Ive read the same thing. It comes from people that are assuming its correct. How do they know? And why would you believe them? Measured distilled water and VP M1 and you know what you have. When you add and keep adding inection in terms of cc or gph. The af ratio will change. You think fuel is puddling like you said because the motor is bogging but its because the af ratio is rich now. Pull fuel out of injectors and retry.When I dyno tuned my car we pulled 30% of the fuel out of the injectors from no methanol to methanol injection. Then for ***** we tried the 20 somthing gph nozzle( months later ) like I posted iats went down alot faster. But af ratio was prob under 10. So maybe another 20-30% fuel had to be taken out if I wanted to to run that much. This is on 44lb injectors on a car that made 420 to the tire on 8psi. So at that point the moto would be getting 50% of its fuel from the methanol kit. When you tried the bigger nozzles and it bogged what was the af ratio?
All I'm looking to do is get some form of comparison for temp drop from the inlet to the outlet of the intake cooling system. Right now I have no idea how temps are coming out of the supercharger, then I don't know what they are coming out of the intercooler, the. I have no idea what they are after the meth/water spray. I just want to see other data suggesting that I am seeing a temp drop to prove that the system is working. It might not be optimal but that's when I can focus on what works and doesn't. This whole time I've been throwing stuff at it based on the GM IAT sensor located in the intake and a EGT gauge that didn't show squat.
My IATS are def lower with the FMIC by the tune of like 30+*F. I'm just not seeing a temp drop via the meth. These cheap sensors will give me a better idea of how the system is dropping temps from one sensor to the other if they both read the same temps at ambient. So at least I have a the temp drop between the two sensors for data which is all I'm looking for.
I might see a bigger difference adding a pusher fan on the IC to help move more air across it and that might also show engine temp drop as well. Can't prove anything tho without data and I don't know if I can believe anything the GM IAT is telling me. I have to assume it's correct tho or somewhat accurate if it's reading the correct ambient temp with the engine cold and off.
I might just say screw it and get 5 gallons of 50/50 and see what it does. No idea about HEET but it seems like a lot of people do it and it's pretty public. I have had the bottles for a long time so using them or not using them doesn't mean anything as I won't use it for anything else.
Devils own nozzles are rated in GPH but they are flowed in Cc/ml. A 10gph nozzle flows about 800cc according to their chart. Which is what they recommended a 9/10gph nozzle for my HP and boost. Which I'm putting out 750ish cc/ml currently. The specifically say to drop the flow amount if using more water or if using and IC. So I don't think my 450ml nozzle is at all undersized pre TB. Maybe upping my nozzle pre SC might show some additional benefits once i get some data of temps coming out of my supercharger with the new gauge.
I can't seem to lean out my AF in boost above 130kpa. I've take a bunch out of the VE like 10 and still not much change. Boost commanded AFR is 11.5:1 and PE is commanded 12.5:1. My last outing I had full timing at 20* at 4000ish Rpms. I can only assume it's temp related that it pulls timing but I have zero'd out the IAT and ECT tables. Maybe it needs to be over a certain TPS or something idk.
WB02 says 10.5:1 - 11.3:1 for most of the boost pulls.
The reason I say ising the m1 is that methanol cools as does water,but water doesnt burn. You can throw a ton of methanol at the car and pull fuel out of the injector. Water you can only use so much to a certain point. GNs were the pioneers in using this stuff. If you want more cooling you need more liquid. Like a bigger intercooler if yours was too small. I can run alot of liquid right threw my supercharger because of the sheer mass of metal that it is. Im not sure on a centri. In relation to nozzles as you get bigger in the ,ill say gph here the spray isnt as fine. Running it threw and supercharger is ideal because it sucks it right in out of the nozzle and pushes it right down the pipe. On a bone stock motor I did not see any significant iat drops until we hit 12gph. Then on from there. My car was dynod in spring so temps were low 70s. Figuring gph or cc is tough because every manufac pump is rated at a diff psi. They say 220psi. Then you have line loss psi, psi loss from check valve then psi loss from pushing against boost psi in pipe its firing against. Now your down 20psi or so. So that 8gph is 7 or 6.5 total flow. But the simple easy soulution, sorry I ramble on this. Is more mix. If your looking to lower iats. But to be honest and many dont know iats on a stock.ls motor is in the 110 125 ° range. Im referencing iats from stock old pushrod motors and I assume they carry over to ls. Stock pushrod motors iats were in the low to mid 100° temps. Stock, no supercharger or turbo. So being at 130 at 7 psi to be very honest isnt bad. But your reading it at the intake pipe vs lower manifold. I know washer fluid and heet is well documented from some sights. Really just guys or girls looking to save money and found there is methanol in washer fluid. But there is other stuff too. Detergents, dye etc. The mixes have never been tested. So you dont know whats actually in there. Methanol is expensive. So paying 2 for a gallon container that actually has 30% methanol maybe is actually more expensive than buying the real thing. $8 gallon meth. $1 distilled. Say you want 25% meth mix. It would cost $12 for that buying seperate. Buy washer fluid. Its more like 2.99. 4 gallons same price. But you know its 25% mix.
Plus it dirty. Get a funnel with a mesh screen. When you fill use it and see how much crap is in those containers. Its not filtered.
Gotcha. Well it looks like my worrying is for nothing. I verified that my electric speed hut oil pressure gauge is dead accurate with my Stewart Warner mechanical.
Went out and beat the **** out of the car for 16min. Mix of street and highway with about 6 good boost pulls about 7-8psi max. Car is running really good and I can feel the meth kick in and everything seals up and vroooooom!
Hears some data that I confirmed with my datalog with the OEM IAT sensor located in the intake manifold.
Glow shift gauge showed ambient temp same temp as IAT. Started car and the pre IC sensor showed slight increase in temp from SC while post IC and IAT stayed the same. Ambient temp was 83-85*F and had a 80% humidy rating.
Let the engine heat up to about 150 and took it out. Within 2 min I'm into my first boost pull.
Pre IC 120*F
Post IC 90-95*F
IAT peaked at 95*F but dropped to 86*F within 5s of letting off the gas.
That's a 30* drop with the IC and water/meth
Next boost was higher and longer
Pre IC 150*F
Post IC 100*F
IAT 102*F
That's a 50*F drop.
From the. On boost pulls didn't show any higher temps than this for the most part
Pre IC was 150-160*F
Post IC was 100ish
IATS ranged 100-104*F
So in a whole I would say my IAT gauge and my glow shift sensors are pretty accurate for testing sake. Glad to see my FMIC is doing its job but was hoping for more from the MEth. I mixed a half gallon wiper with 2 bottles of heat to test after letting it sit over night. I will be looking to get 50/50 mix or the products to make my own and test it. I would be happy getting it back to ambient temps with the meth.
Here is a pic of the glow wait gauge after first small boost pull. This was the 120 pre IC and 90 post IC
Last edited by customblackbird; 08-06-2016 at 12:15 PM.
Too. The car out today for a long drive to harbor freight lol. Warm day too. Still showing a 50*F drop for the most part through most driving esp in boost the temps climb quickly but the inlet temps stay the same for the most part.
I also finally got some idea of the meth affecting inlet temps. High load low rpm highway with converter locked at 2400ish, gave it gas and watched as I approached 0" and the meth kicked on gave it more throttle till I was pushing between 400-600ml on the meth flow gauge and saw IATS go from 95ish to 85*F so it's def taking out some heat or the sensor is just getting wet.
I drained all the wiper fluid and put in the mix of wiper and HEET to test.
Will be planning to get 5 gallons of 50/50 so I have it and then look into mixing my own.
Well that's good. You will see more from the meth. Its in the timing. I just wouldnt do it in washer fluid. 18-20° total timing is mild,but safe depending on what pistons you have. 20-24 is a solid gain. Timing is where most of the gains are at.
I think I'm gonna rum my T-trim for a little while without an intercooler and see what the temps are like. I have a 6" crank and a 3.33" s/c pulley, which translates to about 38,000 RPM which should be something like 10psi. Maybe less.
I used to run my 355 with the S-trim and no IC at 14ish psi without issue.
Well that's good. You will see more from the meth. Its in the timing. I just wouldnt do it in washer fluid. 18-20° total timing is mild,but safe depending on what pistons you have. 20-24 is a solid gain. Timing is where most of the gains are at.
The new meth/Heet combo is in and took the car to work, no boost pulls as theirs too much traffic/slow speed so I couldn't see any temp drops.
Im commanding 20* at WOT. The long block is stock minus the LS6 springs, so stock cast pistons, ring gaps etc. I prob wont increase timing munch more just to be safe.
I think I'm gonna rum my T-trim for a little while without an intercooler and see what the temps are like. I have a 6" crank and a 3.33" s/c pulley, which translates to about 38,000 RPM which should be something like 10psi. Maybe less.
I used to run my 355 with the S-trim and no IC at 14ish psi without issue.
-- Joe
38,000 seems kinda low to figure 10psi? But I have no idea about the vortec flow rates. I think I'm close to yours pulley wise (stock truck balancer is 7.5 - 7.7" and I'm running a 3" pulley. But we are totally different blowers but I thought centrifugals spin in the 40-60k range...?
But 14psi with no intercooler?! Wow... those IATs must of been sky high.
38,000 seems kinda low to figure 10psi? But I have no idea about the vortec flow rates. I think I'm close to yours pulley wise (stock truck balancer is 7.5 - 7.7" and I'm running a 3" pulley. But we are totally different blowers but I thought centrifugals spin in the 40-60k range...?
But 14psi with no intercooler?! Wow... those IATs must of been sky high.
Looking at my old logs, 180 degrees or so with the S-Trim.
Here is the S-trim & T-trim compressor map:
So I'm thinking a pressure ratio of around 1.6 and 65ish lbs/min.
When I had the S-trim it was a 7.5" crank pulley and 3.33" s/c pulley, which was 47k. Figure a pressure ratio of somewhere around 2-2.1. What doesn't really jive is the lbs/min. Supposedly at that RPM it should have been flowing around 70lbs/min, but the car only made 565hp.
To max (efficient max not absolute) the T-Trim, I need a 7.5" crank pulley. I wouldn't go smaller on the s/c pulley because it would slip even at 10rib.
08-05-2016, 10:47 AM
