the quest for a daily driver
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the quest for a daily driver
Heres what i'm working with a 91 z28 it had it's trans rebuild before i bought it, i am wanting a nice cruiser with a bit of a kick to at least keep up with the newer muscle cars now a days i have been looking at engines swaps like the ls or 383s but i have no clue what to do with it. the things i find i often need more things just to get those motors to work with my car but that will cost me a lot more
any suggestions?
any suggestions?
Last edited by SketchyZed; 07-01-2016 at 02:13 PM.
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
Can always modify your existing engine and setup.
Depends on what your goal is, but for just some street performance, an exhaust, headers, heads, cam and intake change will go a long way.
Depends on what your goal is, but for just some street performance, an exhaust, headers, heads, cam and intake change will go a long way.
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
thanks i have been looking at some intakes actually can anyone recommend one for tpi
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
SInce the goal is to keep up with newer cars. Minimum would be upgrade fuel pump and 150 HP shot of nitrous on your engine. The TPI 5.7 stock had 220HP so only 370HP with a nitrous shot. The new 5.3 in trucks make 355 HP..........yeah, in a truck.
The heads, cam, intake path is a slow dance of wasting your money and still having not much HP. To make more HP with those parts you have to rev it and then the rest of the engine falls apart.
Best way is 150 HP nitrous, second best is supercharger kit, third is turbocharger. This is the order for someone with the least mechanical skills. Reverse the order for someone with maximum mechanical skills.
The heads, cam, intake path is a slow dance of wasting your money and still having not much HP. To make more HP with those parts you have to rev it and then the rest of the engine falls apart.
Best way is 150 HP nitrous, second best is supercharger kit, third is turbocharger. This is the order for someone with the least mechanical skills. Reverse the order for someone with maximum mechanical skills.
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
I have been looking at cams and heads but can can't find any heads that would be good for what i'm using my car for
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
Im running a GM 350 HO and it made for a very decent street car for years. 212/222 duration, 435/460 lift with vortec heads. Ran with the new mustangs pretty decently. That was even before the EFI and blower. Vortec's new are cheap, i think their 600 for a set of new 062's. If your looking for intakes, id highly recommend a HSR
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
Skip the summit heads, and that's exactly what i have. Stick with the GM 62cc heads though. The 67's are too big. Probably better quality too
#10
Re: the quest for a daily driver
A 383 is pointless for most people, especially with out the accompanying upgrade parts for the TPI intake.
So the 383 will probably cost around $2500 on the cheaper side, and the TPI intake upgrades just to feed it close to another $800 (base + runners + TB) But then you'll need headers and an exhaust too, so another $400 for the cat-back, and you can probably score a set of headers for around $200-$300. But then you need a Y-pipe and thats probably $150-$200 to get that fabbed up.
Crap gets expensive fast. Plus you'll need it tuned, so you'll need a chip burned. Either you buy the equipment yourself or someone sends you a chip.
Once you factor all that in, its really not any cheaper than doing a LS swap with a newer 5.3L.
You can probably pick-up a 5.3L out of a junkyard cheap. Then you need the F-body oil-pan and some swap mounts. You'll need a Y-pipe to connect the manifolds to your exhaust. Unless you buy a set of swap headers, but those are expensive.
With the way technology is going, I'm a proponent of the LS swap. I put a ton into my LT1 swap since I was already so invested, but some days I wish I had scraped and parted all the goodies for a LS swap.
So the 383 will probably cost around $2500 on the cheaper side, and the TPI intake upgrades just to feed it close to another $800 (base + runners + TB) But then you'll need headers and an exhaust too, so another $400 for the cat-back, and you can probably score a set of headers for around $200-$300. But then you need a Y-pipe and thats probably $150-$200 to get that fabbed up.
Crap gets expensive fast. Plus you'll need it tuned, so you'll need a chip burned. Either you buy the equipment yourself or someone sends you a chip.
Once you factor all that in, its really not any cheaper than doing a LS swap with a newer 5.3L.
You can probably pick-up a 5.3L out of a junkyard cheap. Then you need the F-body oil-pan and some swap mounts. You'll need a Y-pipe to connect the manifolds to your exhaust. Unless you buy a set of swap headers, but those are expensive.
With the way technology is going, I'm a proponent of the LS swap. I put a ton into my LT1 swap since I was already so invested, but some days I wish I had scraped and parted all the goodies for a LS swap.
#11
Re: the quest for a daily driver
Originally Posted by SketchyZed
Heres what i'm working with a 91 z28 it had it's trans rebuild before i bought it, i am wanting a nice cruiser with a bit of a kick to at least keep up with the newer muscle cars now a days i have been looking at engines swaps like the ls or 383s but i have no clue what to do with it. the things i find i often need more things just to get those motors to work with my car but that will cost me a lot more
any suggestions?
any suggestions?
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
SInce the goal is to keep up with newer cars. Minimum would be upgrade fuel pump and 150 HP shot of nitrous on your engine. The TPI 5.7 stock had 220HP so only 370HP with a nitrous shot. The new 5.3 in trucks make 355 HP..........yeah, in a truck.
The heads, cam, intake path is a slow dance of wasting your money and still having not much HP. To make more HP with those parts you have to rev it and then the rest of the engine falls apart.
Best way is 150 HP nitrous, second best is supercharger kit, third is turbocharger. This is the order for someone with the least mechanical skills. Reverse the order for someone with maximum mechanical skills.
The heads, cam, intake path is a slow dance of wasting your money and still having not much HP. To make more HP with those parts you have to rev it and then the rest of the engine falls apart.
Best way is 150 HP nitrous, second best is supercharger kit, third is turbocharger. This is the order for someone with the least mechanical skills. Reverse the order for someone with maximum mechanical skills.
The 4th gen cast manifolds are fantastic in this power range and fit thirdgens. The conversion motor mounts are not big money, and the flexplate adapters are cheap too. A junkyard 5.3, 6.0 with a cam swap would be a fantastic street upgrade. You should be able to control an LS motor with the stock ECM if you buy an MSD box with a trigger output. (You might not have timing control but you will have fuel control). Or can go Megasquirt.
Vortech just came out with a generic LSx supercharger kit that is around $2400 I believe. You can make over 500hp on a stock 5.3, or nearly 600hp on a modified 5.3 or 6.0 with a bolt on Vortech.
A 383 will cost twice as much in parts and machining. Go LSx unless you have a shop load of SBC blocks, heads, cranks, etc lying around.
-- Joe
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
I picked up a 5.3 a few weeks ago. It's sitting on a stand in my shop. I have nothing to put it in, but I'm thinking of building it into a 400hp n/a 9:1 compression motor and bagging it.
The 4th gen cast manifolds are fantastic in this power range and fit thirdgens. The conversion motor mounts are not big money, and the flexplate adapters are cheap too. A junkyard 5.3, 6.0 with a cam swap would be a fantastic street upgrade. You should be able to control an LS motor with the stock ECM if you buy an MSD box with a trigger output. (You might not have timing control but you will have fuel control). Or can go Megasquirt.
Vortech just came out with a generic LSx supercharger kit that is around $2400 I believe. You can make over 500hp on a stock 5.3, or nearly 600hp on a modified 5.3 or 6.0 with a bolt on Vortech.
A 383 will cost twice as much in parts and machining. Go LSx unless you have a shop load of SBC blocks, heads, cranks, etc lying around.
-- Joe
The 4th gen cast manifolds are fantastic in this power range and fit thirdgens. The conversion motor mounts are not big money, and the flexplate adapters are cheap too. A junkyard 5.3, 6.0 with a cam swap would be a fantastic street upgrade. You should be able to control an LS motor with the stock ECM if you buy an MSD box with a trigger output. (You might not have timing control but you will have fuel control). Or can go Megasquirt.
Vortech just came out with a generic LSx supercharger kit that is around $2400 I believe. You can make over 500hp on a stock 5.3, or nearly 600hp on a modified 5.3 or 6.0 with a bolt on Vortech.
A 383 will cost twice as much in parts and machining. Go LSx unless you have a shop load of SBC blocks, heads, cranks, etc lying around.
-- Joe
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
The only downfall to a LS swap in my eyes is all the stuff to go along with it. Youll need a fbody pan, Front accessory drive, and the intake. Thats alone is good for a easy 1000 in parts, more if your looking for new stuff. If you go EFI you might as well just Megasquirt it, no point in buying good stuff then throwing a junky MSD box on there to make it unreliable.
On ebay, a used LS1 camaro/firebird intake is $175-200 buy it now.
Fbody pan, new, for 1998 camaro was $240.
The accessory drive is a bit more complicated. I've seen a few new 'kits' for $600 buy it now, which is absurd. I'd probably just make a few brackets.
I have no first hand experience with the MSD box, but a lot of the c3 corvette guys are running it. I'd go Megasquirt though.
-- Joe
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
If it's free, well, use that.
-- Joe
#17
Re: the quest for a daily driver
A LS PCM isn't that expensive if you already have an LS engine. You can pick them up in junkyards. And converting the harness is well documented, so thats as cheap as your labor.
Pocket has the amazing thread on that.
I just don't see a reason to run a MS on a LS engine, when the stock PCM is actually great already. And if the PCM fry's later for whatever odd reason, you can still get one cheap in a JY.
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
Right now on my test mule I've got MAF (LS1 sensor) configured for load calculations until the MAP sensor hits 100kpa, then the load calc is speed density.
My ignition table is MAP based.
I have a load adder table which allows me to add or subtract fuel from the calculated target. This is similar to the LV8 tables or whatever they were in $6E, but its a 16x16 table.
Additionally I have a correction curve (12 data points) from 0-whatever grams / sec, which will further override the MAF's calculated load.
The MAF sensor calibration has 1026 data points. Again, I don't know what the 411 PCM is (counts to grams/sec), but $6E only had 53. That's quite a measurable difference in resolution.
-- Joe
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
Thats great for you, but most guys like myself dont have the skills or tools too. So were stuck. I usually like to add 20% cost to any project i start for stuff i didnt think about and small stuff that nickels and dimes me. Its a expensive initial cost, but once your past that state, i totally agree. LS is the way to go.
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
Thats great for you, but most guys like myself dont have the skills or tools too. So were stuck. I usually like to add 20% cost to any project i start for stuff i didnt think about and small stuff that nickels and dimes me. Its a expensive initial cost, but once your past that state, i totally agree. LS is the way to go.
I'll do some more research. I know the 5.3/6.0 intake fits if you have a cowl, ram air, etc hood. I'd be shocked if nobody sold cheap brackets for these things. People are sticking LSx motors in everything from imports to airplanes.
-- Joe
#21
Re: the quest for a daily driver
Originally Posted by Thirdgen89GTA
I just don't see a reason to run a MS on a LS engine, when the stock PCM is actually great already.
As for the LS engine being the way to go, SBC's, V6's, and I6's are still dominating the track by me, and the factory has since been leaning in that direction, so I fail to see the logic behind such a claim. Again, people claim the LS engine is the best, but no demo's from these very people, just parroted words from others who eventually go back to the SBC anyway. Carry on though gentleman, it's a very interesting conversation nonetheless despite going well beyond what the OP was originally asking...
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
I'll even let you borrow a MS as I have a spare, so you can stop using that junk
In all seriousness, I picked up an Ostrich last week and starting playing with $8D again, and I really almost forgot how absolutely crappy that stuff is. I'm not just talking about the crappy layout of tunerpro because I do have Tunercat as well, but just how limited everything is. I gave Vanilla some suggestions on adding features to his $8D boost project, but even then it's just not comparable.
MS is written in C/C++. From scratch. GM code is in assembler. The hardware architecture is not even similar. The fueling algorithms are so far different it's not even funny, which is why you guys have so much trouble trying to figure out how to tune an MS after you've been handicapped by GM. There is NOTHING similar between GM code and MS at all. It's not possible to have started from any GM code.
As for the LS engine being the way to go, SBC's, V6's, and I6's are still dominating the track by me, and the factory has since been leaning in that direction, so I fail to see the logic behind such a claim. Again, people claim the LS engine is the best, but no demo's from these very people, just parroted words from others who eventually go back to the SBC anyway.
I'm starting to think you just like controversy.
-- Joe
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
GM code in newer cars is substantially better than the $8D stuff you're looking at. I would go OEM PCM in an LSx swap without question.
As far as SBCs or LSx dominating tracks and such, the SBC is more plentiful among the track guys still, but to get the power the LSx guys see, they can't seem to equal mileage and drivability.
A high power LSx IS better than a high power Gen1 in a street car. A strip car it doesn't matter.
That's pretty much all there is to this discussion.
As far as SBCs or LSx dominating tracks and such, the SBC is more plentiful among the track guys still, but to get the power the LSx guys see, they can't seem to equal mileage and drivability.
A high power LSx IS better than a high power Gen1 in a street car. A strip car it doesn't matter.
That's pretty much all there is to this discussion.
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
As for the LS engine being the way to go, SBC's, V6's, and I6's are still dominating the track by me, and the factory has since been leaning in that direction, so I fail to see the logic behind such a claim. Again, people claim the LS engine is the best, but no demo's from these very people
Im just amazed the LS heads flow that much, even in stock form.
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
I dont have first hand experience, but i see allot of builds that involve porting stock heads, springs, pushrods a cam and slapping a ebay turbo on them and cranking out 5-600, sometimes 700 horsepower. Dont see many people with SBC's doing that with stock heads. Theres fast SBC's and V6's out there no doubt, but i dont see many of them doing it on a stock short block and set of heads. If i hadnt bought this car with the crate engine in it, i would already have swapped in a LS.
Im just amazed the LS heads flow that much, even in stock form.
Im just amazed the LS heads flow that much, even in stock form.
Even the crappy 5.3 heads flow like 260cfm. The port height and shape, 15 degree valve angle, etc are all contributing to an amazing engine design.
If the goal is a fast daily driver, LSx gives idle quality, responsiveness, and power per dollar that you don't get with the older stuff.
-- Joe
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
i'm trying to build here a nice daily with a bit of a kick to it but i can also take my girl out with it and enjoy the ride i found most of everything i need, a 350 ho and a intake
Last edited by SketchyZed; 07-08-2016 at 05:16 PM.
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
can someone list me all the parts i need for this intake https://www.summitracing.com/parts/w...Ie1RoCwoPw_wcB
#29
Re: the quest for a daily driver
can someone list me all the parts i need for this intake https://www.summitracing.com/parts/w...Ie1RoCwoPw_wcB
And you'll also need some spacers for the center bolts because they are at a different angle.
There are threads that cover all of these with part numbers.
Search for Stealth Ram installs on these boards.
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
Should be pretty straight forward. Intake gaskets, ditch the china wall ones and use silicone, Youll need the fuel rail kit and the fuel pressure regulator that comes with it. Swap over your injectors, or replace them with new ones (use new orings) Swap over your throttle body and run the wires, install the dristributor, time it and you should be good to go.
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
can i have some links please i don't know much about efi
Last edited by SketchyZed; 07-22-2016 at 03:43 PM.
#33
Re: the quest for a daily driver
high power LSx IS better than a high power Gen1 in a street car. A strip car it doesn't matter.
Max effort all motor, costs are similar imo. Both need cubes good heads and intakes but a big sbc needs a block like a shp as factory 400's are so so
Power adder, lsx truck motors bang for buck are best up to 800 whp or so. Alot push stockish lsx parts to 1000 fine as well.
After that both need blocks heads internals and all that costs similar if not cheaper for sbc
At my track, big block power adders rule the roost lol. But theres sbc sbf lsx 2jz hondas and gtr stuff all right there with each other
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
Bang for buck up to 450 ish whp na, lsx stuff works best. Over that, costs start to get closer but still leans lsx
Max effort all motor, costs are similar imo. Both need cubes good heads and intakes but a big sbc needs a block like a shp as factory 400's are so so
Power adder, lsx truck motors bang for buck are best up to 800 whp or so. Alot push stockish lsx parts to 1000 fine as well.
After that both need blocks heads internals and all that costs similar if not cheaper for sbc
At my track, big block power adders rule the roost lol. But theres sbc sbf lsx 2jz hondas and gtr stuff all right there with each other
Max effort all motor, costs are similar imo. Both need cubes good heads and intakes but a big sbc needs a block like a shp as factory 400's are so so
Power adder, lsx truck motors bang for buck are best up to 800 whp or so. Alot push stockish lsx parts to 1000 fine as well.
After that both need blocks heads internals and all that costs similar if not cheaper for sbc
At my track, big block power adders rule the roost lol. But theres sbc sbf lsx 2jz hondas and gtr stuff all right there with each other
Probably still bore it over and stick a 5.7 rotating assembly in it, but it could potentially be a nice 450hp n/a street motor.
Sounds like all I need is motor mounts, a fbody oil pan, and some 4th gen exhaust manifolds.
-- Joe
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
listen i want the best for my car i have no idea whats a good product i need recommendations. i'm just starting out i got my camaro a few months ago
Last edited by SketchyZed; 07-22-2016 at 03:44 PM.
#36
Re: the quest for a daily driver
This forum is FULL of information. Its literally the Wealthiest forum I've ever been part of when it comes to technical information.
The Search feature should be USED. You have enough information to find it.
In the alternative EFI intake forum there are 444 threads relating to it. And the 3rd thread down in my search contained a link to a hot-rod article, also a link to a youtube video.
Why should we continually re-visit the same topics when they are easily found.
I searched the alternative intake forum for "Stealth ram" and thats how I got my 444 results. Then I started reading.
I know my OWN install thread is in that forum as well. And I know that in my thread I documented EVERY single part# and the problems I ran into.
No one will slam you for asking questions. But at the same time, we don't want to answer the same questions that have been asked, and answered thoroughly before. So please use the search button and dig through. You will find answers to questions you don't even know you have to ask yet.
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Re: the quest for a daily driver
okay i found everything i need for my dd thank you all for helping but i just have one last question. what do you all think of long tubes and these https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hed-18701/overview/ with my set up
Last edited by SketchyZed; 07-22-2016 at 04:12 PM.
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, LT1
Transmission: TKX, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, 3.23
Re: the quest for a daily driver
okay i found everything i need for my dd thank you all for helping but i just have one last question. what do you all think of long tubes and these https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hed-18701/overview/
On my Formula I went with the OBX stainless long tube headers. They are 1 3/4" primary and have really impressive ground clearance. I did make some modifications to the "Y" merge because I didn't like how they went under the crossmember, plus my TH350 cross member was in a different location.
If the car is only making 350-400hp, the Hedman 68470 headers work perfectly fine. If you can get your hands on some SLP 1 3/4 even better. Stay away from hooker or hedman long tubes, they scrape everything and rot out.
-- Joe
#41
Supreme Member
Re: the quest for a daily driver
And that same 5.3 truck engine, without a single modification internally, just a proper turbocharger setup, will support 500-600 bhp in a daily driver for 50-100k miles. Pretty sick little engines they produced.
#42
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Massachusetts
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Car: 86' IROC
Engine: Supercharged 350
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.45
Re: the quest for a daily driver
You will need a little bit of skill to make a custom Y pipe though
#43
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79 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, LT1
Transmission: TKX, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, 3.23
Re: the quest for a daily driver
I have a set of the ceramic coated hedman longtubes and other than a little grinding on the K member, Im very happy with them (mind you im also running a 6 speed). Ground clearance is BETTER than with my edelbrock TES shorties, and i had to get rid of my spohn tq arm/cross member and that actually free'd up MORE ground clearance. Never thought i'd see the day where switching to long tubes was a win/win combination.
I'm pretty happy with the stainless 1 3/4 OBX headers:
#44
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Car: 86' IROC
Engine: Supercharged 350
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.45
Re: the quest for a daily driver
After doing some measuring of the exhaust ports on the vortec's they match the primary's (I belive you actually pointed that out) so i opted to stay 1 5/8. The OBX's were #2 on my list.
#45
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, LT1
Transmission: TKX, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, 3.23
Re: the quest for a daily driver
My AFR 210s have a large exhaust port.
That's why I typically recommend the hedman 68470 to most people doing street builds. They are cheap and work fine.
I picked up some stainless shorty headers for my C3 for like $120 recently. I'm somewhat impressed by the quality. It's getting very cheap to build a car.
-- Joe
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